The Trial of the King Killers [Anti-Metagame Defensive "Tier List"] Update: T11 Done!

Katakiri · Apr 11th, 2012, 12:29:06 AM

Welcome to the Anti-Metagame "Tier List!"

This is a list of Pokemon that counter the Top 11 in OU arranged into an easily readable "tier list" for your team building convenience. It will soon be a Top 20 list but for the moment, it's just Top 11.

A Few Quick Notes Before Reading On:
Ferrothorn, Choice Band Dragonite, Choice Band Terrakion, & Choice Specs Politoed were NOT included in the making of the purely defensive list.
Ferrothorn’s lack of power & coverage made the list far too large; to give you an idea, Standard Ferrothorn can’t 2HKO about 60~70% of the useable Pokémon in the game. Adding him to the list changed so little that it wasn't worth the large amount of time it would take to add all those Pokemon to the list.
Choice Band Dragonite, Band Terrakion, & Specs Politoed were excluded all for the same reason: Due to having 4 Moves for coverage & immense power, there were only around 5 Pokémon for each that could take a hit from them. Because all the other Top 11 Pokémon only get one set each, giving them 2 sets would give Pokemon like Jellicent & Gligar unfair tiering numbers.
Gliscor was given a +2 Attack boost as with only Earthquake & Ice Fang, his counters were nearly as numerous as Ferrothorn’s. Gliscor can easily get to +2 behind a Sub before he must confront his foe so I felt the +2 was justified.

To-Do List:

Code:

- Make this into a Top 20 List (The Top 11 will still be listed)
- Multiple Sets for the Top 20 ...Not entirely sure how I'll handle that.
- Moveset Listings
- Prettying-up the thread

Step 1 – Defense Calcs!
What I did was, I took mass damage calculations for the Scizor, Dragonite, Heatran, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Politoed, Terrakion, Gliscor, Jirachi, & Landorus sets listed below and included every single On-Site set from OU to NU.
Then I took any Pokémon that had a set that cannot be 2HKOed by ANY of the selected Pokémon sets’ moves and made them into the alphabetized lists below.

Scizor Choice Band

Dragonite Dragon Dance (Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch)

Heatran Offensive

Rotom-W Choice Scarf

Tyranitar SpDefensive + Stone Edge

Politoed Choice Scarf (Weather: Rain)

Terrakion Choice Scarf

Gliscor Swords Dance (+2 Attack)

Jirachi SubPara

Landorus Choice Scarf (Weather: Sandstorm)

*Sets with Air Balloon are calculated into these which is why Cobalion is anywhere near Landorus' list

Step 2 – Sorting!
After making 10 complete lists, I took Jirachi’s long list and added Pokémon from the other lists to make the main list.
If a Pokémon is already on the main list and they are listed on one of the other 9 lists, they get a star next to their name and an additional star for each and every instance of being repeated, with 9 Stars being the current maximum.

Step 3 – Tiering!
Using the stars given to every Pokémon, I sorted the Pokémon into tiers based on the number of stars they have and cropped out the Pokémon with no stars for convenience. (The list would be very long otherwise)
I present to you the purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List":

Purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List"

Step 4 – Offensive Calcs!
Simply tanking hits isn't enough. King Killers need to be able to dish-out hits strong enough to break the Pokemon they're walling. So with that in mind, I took the lists of Pokemon that wall each top 11 threat and went through one by one, figuring out which Pokemon can deal 50% or more per hit to the Pokemon they wall.

That allowed me to creat these lists of "true" counters for each of the Top 11 Pokemon. These Pokemon take less than 50% from any move the Offensive sets above carry, while being able to, at the very least, 2HKO the most common Defensive variants of the the same Pokemon:

Dragonite Bulky DD (Multiscale broken)

Ferrothorn Standard

Gliscor Defensive

Heatran Specially Defensive

Jirachi Specially Defensive

Landorus Choice Scarf

Politoed Defensive

Rotom-W Bulky Attacker

Scizor Choice Band

Terrakion Choice Scarf

Tyranitar Specially Defensive

Step 5 – The “Finished” List!
Taking the Purely Defensive Tier List from before, I gave each Pokemon on that list one extra star for each "True Counter" list they appear on, adding 11 stars to the maximum amount possible. After sorting the Pokemon back into tiers, I created and present to you the the True Anti-Top 11 Tier List:

Code:

Bro-Tier
***************Slowbro 

S-Tier
**************Dragonite (Multiscale greatly influences calcs and ranking)
**************Gyarados 
**************Hippowdon (Sand Stream)
**************Lickilicky 
**************Suicune 

A-Tier
*************Hitmontop 
*************Latias 
*************Mew 
*************Milotic (Marvel Scale greatly influences calcs and ranking)
*************Poliwrath 

B-Tier
************Celebi 
************Cresselia 
************Dusclops 
************Empoleon
************Shelgon 

C-Tier
***********Bronzong 
***********Musharna 
***********Porygon2 
***********Quagsire 
***********Wobbuffet  (Counter & Mirror Coat greatly influence placement)

D-Tier
**********Cobalion 
**********Donphan 
**********Granbull 
**********Gurdurr 
**********Heatran 
**********Ludicolo 
**********Luxray 
**********Meganium 
**********Metagross 
**********Seadra 
**********Swampert 
**********Tangrowth 
**********Torterra 

E-Tier
*********Alomomola
*********Amoonguss 
*********Blastoise 
*********Gliscor 
*********Jellicent 
*********Ninetales (Drought)
*********Piloswine 
*********Politoed (Drizzle)
*********Regigigas 
*********Toxicroak 
*********Tyranitar (Sand Stream)

F-Tier
********Druddigon 
********Hariyama 
********Jirachi 
********Kingdra 
********Magnezone 
********Mesprit 
********Muk 
********Salamence 
********Snorlax
********Weezing 
********Zapdos 

G-Tier
*******Chansey 
*******Cofagrigus 
*******Cradily
*******Dusknoir 
*******Leafeon 
*******Moltres 
*******Nidoqueen 
*******Reuniclus 
*******Rhydon 
*******Rotom-C 
*******Rotom-W 
*******Sandslash 
*******Shaymin 
*******Tangela 
*******Uxie 
*******Vaporeon 
*******Venusaur
*******Virizion
*******Wormadam-G 

H-Tier
******Ampharos 
******Azumarill 
******Breloom
******Charizard 
******Deoxys-D 
******Dragonair 
******Eelektross 
******Feraligatr 
******Gastrodon 
******Gligar 
******Hippopotas 
******Lanturn 
******Metang 
******Probopass 
******Rotom-H 
******Serperior 
******Slowking 
******Togekiss 
******Vigoroth 

I-Tier
*****Claydol 
*****Forretress
*****Gardevoir 
*****Magcargo 
*****Miltank 
*****Munchlax 
*****Qwilfish 
*****Regirock 
*****Seismitoad 
*****Skarmory 
*****Terrakion
*****Throh 
*****Tropius 
*****Vileplume 
*****Whiscash 

J-Tier
****Altaria 
****Clefable 
****Cloyster 
****Conkeldurr 
****Crustle 
****Exeggutor 
****Lapras 
****Machamp 
****Mantine 
****Masquerain 
****Misdreavus 
****Pelipper 
****Porygon 
****Regice
****Rotom 
****Rotom-S 
****Scrafty 
****Scyther
****Spiritomb 
****Stunfisk 
****Tentacruel 
****Torkoal 
****Volcarona 
****Wartortle 
****Zweilous

K-Tier
***Articuno
***Azelf 
***Carracosta 
***Drapion 
***Electabuzz 
***Ferroseed
***Ferrothorn
***Frillish 
***Gabite 
***Gallade
***Garbodor 
***Golbat 
***Golurk 
***Gothitelle 
***Haxorus 
***Hydreigon 
***Machoke 
***Mandibuzz 
***Marowak 
***Octillery 
***Omastar 
***Relicanth
***Rhyperior 
***Samurott 
***Sawsbuck 
***Steelix 
***Swalot 
***Tentacool 
***Umbreon 
***Walrein 
***Whirlipede
 
L-Tier
**Aggron 
**Arcanine
**Armaldo
**Audino 
**Blissey 
**Chandelure 
**Chimecho 
**Cottonee 
**Cryogonal
**Darmanitan 
**Emboar 
**Entei 
**Escavalier
**Flareon 
**Fraxure 
**Gorebyss 
**Heatmor 
**Huntail 
**Hypno 
**Infernape 
**Kangaskhan 
**Lampent 
**Latios 
**Lilligant 
**Lumineon 
**Magmortar 
**Magneton 
**Mawile 
**Phione 
**Raikou 
**Rapidash 
**Registeel 
**Roselia
**Scizor
**Simisear 
**Togetic 
**Typhlosion 
**Victini 
**Wailord
 
M-Tier
*Abomasnow
*Arbok 
*Basculin
*Basculin-B
*Bibarel 
*Bisharp 
*Bouffalant 
*Braviary 
*Camerupt 
*Crawdaunt 
*Duosion 
*Electivire 
*Exploud 
*Floatzel 
*Glaceon
*Golduck 
*Grumpig
*Heracross
*Kabutops 
*Kecleon
*Kingler 
*Krookodile 
*Kyurem
*Lairon 
*Landorus 
*Manectric 
*Mismagius
*Nidoking
*Noctowl
*Omanyte 
*Roserade
*Rotom-F
*Sableye 
*Scraggy 
*Shedinja
*Simipour 
*Slaking 
*Solrock
*Staraptor 
*Starmie 
*Stoutland 
*Sudowoodo 
*Swoobat
*Tauros 
*Whimsicott 
*Wigglytuff 
*Zebstrika
 
Nope-Tier
Bastiodon 
Beheeyem 
Cacturne
Clamperl
Combusken 
Corsola
Crobat 
Dewgong
Drifblim 
Dunsparce 
Electrode 
Emolga 
Illumise
Jynx
Klinklang 
Lopunny 
Magikarp (OU One Speed, One Gear, One Moveset [Air Balloon])
Murkrow 
Natu 
Pinsir
Seaking 
Shuckle
Sigilyph 
Swanna 
Unfezant 
Vespiquen 
Volbeat
Wormadam-S
Wynaut
Xatu

Slowbro has come out as the top Pokemon to deal with the Top 11 Pokemon in OU with Dragonite, Gyarados, Hippowdon, Suicune, and, surprisingly enough, Lickilicky right behind him.

Keep in mind that a lot of these Pokemon such as Empoleon, Cobalion, or Heatran have Balloon sets which let them get past Pokemon like Landorus & Heatran that they normally wouldn't be able to.

Intimidate is also taken into account, so Pokemon like Granbull & Gyarados are higher than they would be without it.

I'm expanding the list to the Top 20 in OU next update. I'll base it on April OU Usage when that goes up next week.

Until then, break the mold and take down the kings!

Katakiri · Apr 11th, 2012, 12:29:39 AM

Reserved.

bluemon · Apr 11th, 2012, 12:50:02 AM

*golf clap*

really nice job.

time to make a team with poliwrath and shelgon

IcyMan28 · Apr 11th, 2012, 1:01:11 AM

If you use a Flame Orb on Milotic (inadvisable, obviously), would Rest+Sleep Talk even be necessary? The whole point of that set is to use Rest as both recovery and to activate Marvel Scale. If FO does the latter, I would much rather use Recover for the instant heal and lack of being a sitting duck otherwise.

Milotic's Dragon Tail is laughably weak, though, so it obviously is less effective against Sub users. Having something to help with this helps make the RestTalk set less of a liability, because Milotic can really shine if given the chance.

ThePillsburyDoughBoy · Apr 11th, 2012, 1:06:08 AM

I know this may be asking too much, but do your calcs include SR damage or SR+1 layer of Spikes? SR+1 layer of Spikes is the amount used for the "Counter that Pokemon-OU" thread.

Ithilanor · Apr 11th, 2012, 1:14:44 AM

This is really interesting; great job, and thank you!

Katakiri · Apr 11th, 2012, 1:17:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

If you use a Flame Orb on Milotic (inadvisable, obviously), would Rest+Sleep Talk even be necessary? The whole point of that set is to use Rest as both recovery and to activate Marvel Scale. If FO does the latter, I would much rather use Recover for the instant heal and lack of being a sitting duck otherwise.

Milotic's Dragon Tail is laughably weak, though, so it obviously is less effective against Sub users. Having something to help with this helps make the RestTalk set less of a liability, because Milotic can really shine if given the chance.

Flame Orb is to get the Defense-boost to switch-in on an attack and Phaze the next turn without having to be asleep and actually rely on Sleep Talk's 33% chance to pick Dragon Tail. Recover works too, RestTalk is more for keeping Milo healthy in a pinch. That's my take on it anyway. I'm not one to talk about it in detail, I was just pointing out that Marvel Scale Milotic is...a thing apparently. I think it's bad either way, but I'm not gonna argue with the calcs. That thing can take some hits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I know this may be asking too much, but do your calcs include SR damage or SR+1 layer of Spikes? SR+1 layer of Spikes is the amount used for the "Counter that Pokemon-OU" thread.

No, I'm just keeping it simple. Besides, isn't EVERYONE using Forretress or Starmie now? I seriously hate seeing those things... But no, this list has already taken hours to make and it's not even finished. I'd rather not go through the hassle of adding hazards to the equation.

bluemon · Apr 11th, 2012, 1:31:16 AM

in defense of katakiri, the top walls either resist or are neutral to hazards anyways....

(you dont see articuno anywhere, do you? ;) )

Jinzha · Apr 11th, 2012, 1:54:18 AM

Poliwrath might just be the solution to all my problems!! Now I just need a seventh party slot or something xD.

Great to see some heavily underlooked walls getting some attention.

Tetrinity · Apr 11th, 2012, 7:41:34 AM

Just out of interest, I pulled out the Pokémon that are listed for both Scizor and Rotom-W:

VoltTurn "Counters"

Pretty interesting list, but some of these Pokémon definitely couldn't be considered as counters due to being incapable of hitting back. I've picked out a few that I feel could actually do something useful. ;)

Amoonguss @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore (wish they'd hurry up and release Regenerator...)
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Amoonguss has real potential, in my opinion, thanks to Spore and STAB Giga Drain, which 2HKOs all standard Rotom-W (bulky attacker only after Stealth Rock) while scarfed Rotom-W can only 4HKO after Stealth Rock with HP Fire even before you consider the recovery from Giga Drain.

Choice Band Scizor is a little more problematic, especially if Sleep Clause is active, since U-Turn is a guaranteed 2HKO and Bullet Punch is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. The standard OU Amoonguss set carries HP Ice, but even HP Fire can only manage a 2HKO (61.8% - 73.5%). Against Scizor, Amoonguss' best shot is either waiting until hazards wear it down enough to take it out with a single HP Fire, or catching it on the switch with status.

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk) / Relaxed (+Def, -Spe)
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
- Wish
- Protect / Roost
- Dragon Tail
- Flamethrower

I have to admit Salamence surprised me by showing up, but it's actually pretty damn good at the job. Against more standard Mence like DD or Mix, Rotom's best shot is Volt Switch (3HKO, 2HKO after Stealth Rock) while it fares even worse against the defensive set (4HKO, 3HKO after rocks).

Scizor is a pain against the offensive sets, grabbing a 2HKO after rocks with Bullet Punch even after Intimidate. The defensive version pulls through, however; after Intimidate, Bullet Punch scores a mere 4HKO with rocks while Salamence gets a guaranteed OHKO with Flamethrower. Mence can then Wish/Roost off the damage. Even if the Scizor turns out to be a bulky Swords Dance variety, a +1 Bullet Punch is only a 3HKO after rocks while Flamethrower has a 56.25% chance of a OHKO with rocks. With sun support or the tiniest amount of extra residual damage, Scizor wouldn't have a hope in hell.

It should be noted that the natures mostly just depend on what you care more about - outspeeding more threats such as Adamant Breloom or dealing more damage with Dragon Tail. You can optionally run Bold 252 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe, which lets Mence outspeed max-Speed Jolly Scizor outside of Bullet Punch at the cost of a small amount of bulk (still a 4HKO after rocks, mind you).

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
- Discharge / Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Flying] / Roar

The last Pokémon that caught my eye was Zapdos, although the standard OU sets won't do the job. In neutral weather, scarfed Rotom-W's Hydro Pump has a decent chance of 2HKOing SubRoost Zapdos, the most specially bulky standard OU set, even without rocks. The story is a little more pleasant with the UU specially defensive set, with Hydro Pump giving an extremely small chance of a 2HKO after rocks - Zapdos will generally be able to stall out Rotom's four Hydro Pump uses (Pressure) with Roost. Zapdos is then very likely to 2HKO using Thunderbolt, and can guarantee it with rocks. If Discharge is being used over Thunderbolt, HP Grass can achieve the same job.

Rotom isn't really where Zapdos shines, though; Scizor really struggles against it. Even 4/0 neutral Zapdos is only 2HKOed after rocks by Pursuit, Scizor's strongest attack against it (!). Two Superpowers in a row can only 2HKO after rocks with max damage rolls both times. Zapdos is then capable of killing Scizor twice over with Heat Wave. Against the specially defensive set mentioned above, Zapdos is only 3HKO'd after rocks by Pursuit, which is easily Roosted away. Choice Band Scizor is then OHKOed by Heat Wave, while bulky Swords Dance is OHKOed more than 80% of the time, guaranteed after rocks.

Bearing in mind that a VoltTurn team by its very nature will be taking plenty of residual damage from hazards, I'd say these make reasonably solid counters to the most common VoltTurn core out there. There are probably others in the list that perform very well too. What do you guys think?

Jimera0 · Apr 11th, 2012, 2:09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I know this may be asking too much, but do your calcs include SR damage or SR+1 layer of Spikes? SR+1 layer of Spikes is the amount used for the "Counter that Pokemon-OU" thread.

Having being the poster of that topic (before it got locked because no one followed to rules) I can say it was actually SR OR one layer of spikes, not both. More than 1 layer of hazards isn't normal, especially early game when most "counters" are actually relevant (late game they get worn down to the point where they're no longer true counters in most cases).

Anyway, this is certainly pretty interesting. What I do have to say is the biggest problem most of those "top tier" Pokemon have is that they can't do anything BACK. Simply surviving isn't any good unless you actually do something. Still, it certainly is interesting a gives a lot of rare Pokemon a chance to shine now that some light has been drawn to them. I'm sure they could all fit niches on the appropriate team.

Tetrinity · Apr 11th, 2012, 2:31:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

What I do have to say is the biggest problem most of those "top tier" Pokemon have is that they can't do anything BACK. Simply surviving isn't any good unless you actually do something.

Hence my analysis of possible counters to the case of Scizor + Rotom-W, which is probably one of the most common combinations out of the top ten. The list is interesting as it is, but it'll need expanding in order to come up with genuine counters, especially counters to entire cores. Marvel Scale Milotic may be able to avoid a 2HKO against all of the top threats, but what can it do against Pokémon like Rotom-W or Politoed besides phaze with Dragon Tail after taking a hit and burn damage?

The Silent Storm · Apr 11th, 2012, 2:35:53 PM

In the ''volturn counter Section'' I would like to add Rocky Helmet Skarmory
While he's pratically killed by Rotom-w Skarmory is perfect against Landorus and Scizor, wearing them down and blocking the volturn chain, this is very vital sometimes when you aren't capable to set up the SR or your opponent has a problematic spinner like say Tentacruel or Starmie.
Anyway, great thread, might return with other things

Prankster · Apr 12th, 2012, 2:51:21 AM

i am surprised to see that tropius AND masquerain survives a 2hko from a scizor
This is really helpful info. thanks
I am definitely gonna use that awesome harvest subseed set now

Scarfwynaut · Apr 12th, 2012, 6:38:03 AM

I actually use to do this all the time, but I would place in raw stats for ditermining rather than general top 20 pokemon.

Joeyboy · Apr 12th, 2012, 12:50:54 PM

Wobbu Wobbu!

Wobbuffet is mentioned in most lists, he deserves more respect. Sure this metagame is more offensive, everyone is stronger, but Wobbuffet hasn't gotten any worse this gen. Hell if he can function in Gen 4 Uber he can function in Gen 5 OU.

He's not a fan of Volt-Turn though :D

No Luck Involved · Apr 16th, 2012, 10:52:40 AM

Excellent thread! I'm really looking forward to the offensive calcs.

Katakiri · Apr 16th, 2012, 1:30:39 PM

Sorry about the wait on the offensive calcs. School comes before Pokemon. I'll try to get it out in the next couple days.

Katakiri · Apr 24th, 2012, 8:52:04 PM

Alrighty! Everything has been updated and the true Top 11 counter lists have been made.

Slowbro was able to back-up his Defensive Bulk with his Base 100 Special Attack and great coverage to come out on top.

Lickilicky made a very surprising jump from B-Tier of the Defensive List to S-Tier of the final list. His sheer natural bulk & lack of weaknesses makes him very hard to 2HKO without Fighting-type moves while his amazing coverage options allow him to whittle away at most threats and take 50% off them with a SE coverage move like Power Whip, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, or Earthquake.

Suicune still stands tall from the previous list as an immovable object with it's Crocune or Defensive sets while having the bulk and coverage options on any other sets to come out on top.

Poliwrath keeps a firm grip on it's A-Tier ranking showing just how well he can hang with and take down the big boys despite his RU tiering. Great bulk, STAB Fighting moves with Ice Punch or even Waterfall makes Poliwrath a top threat to the top threats of OU.

One last thing that took me by surprise was Granbull tying with Balloon Heatran in tiering. Intimidate is definitely not to be underestimated as it gives Granbull great artificial bulk for switching-in without losing even 40% of it's HP. With Close Combat & the Elemental Punches for coverage with great support moves, Granbull, very surprisingly, can hold it's own in OU.

Tetrinity · Apr 24th, 2012, 10:17:34 PM

Interesting... may well have to test out Poliwrath on a team some time. I don't think I've ever even seen one on the ladder before...

**blarajan** · Apr 24th, 2012, 10:32:42 PM

This is fanfuckingtastic Katakiri. Very cool, good job.

Knight of Cydonia · Apr 25th, 2012, 3:00:34 AM

Lickilicky could do with an OU analysis now.

zyrefredric · Apr 25th, 2012, 8:57:15 AM

What Lickilicky set brought him to such a high tier? I've been using him as a special wall/phazer, with Curse/Dragon Tail/Rest/Sleep Talk, but maybe I'm using it wrong?

scwizard · Apr 25th, 2012, 12:02:30 PM

Your omissions influence things a lot.

Quote:

Choice Band Dragonite, Band Terrakion, & Specs Politoed were excluded all for the same reason: Due to having 4 Moves for coverage & immense power, there were only around 5 Pokémon for each that could take a hit from them.

Executive decisions like this is how you end up listing SlowBro as a dragonite counter, when the reality out there is that it usually isn't.

CB outrage does 56.3% - 66.5% to slowbro, and dragonite also outspeeds it.
Meanwhile if multiscale is up, slowbro can't OHKO. So slowbro loses head to head.

You also have stuff like "mence as a scizor counter." I run mence, and no way am I going to switch him into bullet punch. Especially if rocks is up.

Great thread btw. It's interesting to learn about pokemon like Shelgon and Alomomola.

Tetrinity · Apr 25th, 2012, 12:11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat scwizard

You also have stuff like "mence as a scizor counter." I run mence, and no way am I going to switch him into bullet punch. Especially if rocks is up.

CB Bullet Punch is a 4HKO with rocks against defensive Salamence after Intimidate. The same Salamence OHKOs with Flamethrower. That's the set that counters Scizor, not the offensive sets which are indeed 2HKOed after rocks and Intimidate.

If nothing else, I run that defensive Mence, and it performs admirably against Scizor.

Apr 11th, 2012, 12:29:06 AM	#1
Katakiri Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 758 Smogon Mobile. Ugh.	The Trial of the King Killers [Anti-Metagame Defensive "Tier List"] Update: T11 Done! Welcome to the Anti-Metagame "Tier List!" This is a list of Pokemon that counter the Top 11 in OU arranged into an easily readable "tier list" for your team building convenience. It will soon be a Top 20 list but for the moment, it's just Top 11. A Few Quick Notes Before Reading On: Ferrothorn, Choice Band Dragonite, Choice Band Terrakion, & Choice Specs Politoed were NOT included in the making of the purely defensive list. Ferrothorn’s lack of power & coverage made the list far too large; to give you an idea, Standard Ferrothorn can’t 2HKO about 60~70% of the useable Pokémon in the game. Adding him to the list changed so little that it wasn't worth the large amount of time it would take to add all those Pokemon to the list. Choice Band Dragonite, Band Terrakion, & Specs Politoed were excluded all for the same reason: Due to having 4 Moves for coverage & immense power, there were only around 5 Pokémon for each that could take a hit from them. Because all the other Top 11 Pokémon only get one set each, giving them 2 sets would give Pokemon like Jellicent & Gligar unfair tiering numbers. Gliscor was given a +2 Attack boost as with only Earthquake & Ice Fang, his counters were nearly as numerous as Ferrothorn’s. Gliscor can easily get to +2 behind a Sub before he must confront his foe so I felt the +2 was justified. To-Do List: Code: - Make this into a Top 20 List (The Top 11 will still be listed) - Multiple Sets for the Top 20 ...Not entirely sure how I'll handle that. - Moveset Listings - Prettying-up the thread Step 1 – Defense Calcs! What I did was, I took mass damage calculations for the Scizor, Dragonite, Heatran, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Politoed, Terrakion, Gliscor, Jirachi, & Landorus sets listed below and included every single On-Site set from OU to NU. Then I took any Pokémon that had a set that cannot be 2HKOed by ANY of the selected Pokémon sets’ moves and made them into the alphabetized lists below. Scizor Choice Band Alomomola Amoonguss Cofagrigus Donphan Dragonite Dusclops Forretress Garbodor Gligar Gliscor Golbat Gyarados Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Jirachi Luxray Masquerain Metang Milotic Moltres Nidoqueen Pelipper Poliwrath Qwilfish Rotom-S Salamence Sandslash Scyther Seadra Shelgon Skarmory Suicune Swalot Tentacruel Torkoal Tropius Volcarona Weezing Whirlipede Wormadam-G Zapdos Dragonite Dragon Dance (Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Punch) Alomomola Bronzong Celebi Chansey Cloyster Cobalion Cofagrigus Cresselia Crustle Deoxys-D Donphan Dusclops Empoleon Gligar Gliscor Golbat Granbull Gyarados Heatran Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Leafeon Lickilicky Luxray Masquerain Mesprit Metagross Metang Mew Milotic Musharna Piloswine Porygon2 Probopass Regirock Relicanth Rhydon Seadra Skarmory Slowbro Steelix Suicune Tangela Tangrowth Torkoal Torterra Uxie Vigoroth Weezing Whirlipede Wobbuffet Heatran Offensive Alomomola Audino Azumarill Bibarel Blastoise Blissey Chansey Charizard Clefable Cradily Cresselia Deoxys-D Dragonair Dragonite Dusclops Empoleon Feraligatr Frillish Gardevoir Gastrodon Gorebyss Grumpig Gurdurr Gyarados Hariyama Heatran Hypno Jellicent Kingdra Lapras Latias Lickilicky Lumineon Magcargo Mandibuzz Mantine Milotic Miltank Moltres Muk Munchlax Ninetales Noctowl Octillery Phione Politoed Poliwrath Porygon Porygon2 Probopass Quagsire Regigigas Rotom-H Rotom-W Samurott Seismitoad Shelgon Shuckle Slowbro Slowking Snorlax Suicune Swampert Tentacool Terrakion Throh Togekiss Tyranitar Umbreon Vaporeon Wailord Walrein Wartortle Whiscash Rotom-W Choice Scarf Altaria Amoonguss Ampharos Articuno Audino Blissey Bronzong Celebi Chansey Clefable Cradily Cresselia Cryogonal Deoxys-D Dragonair Dragonite Druddigon Dusclops Eelektross Electabuzz Empoleon Fraxure Frillish Gallade Gardevoir Gastrodon Gothitelle Grumpig Gurdurr Hariyama Haxorus Hydreigon Hypno Jellicent Jirachi Kecleon Kingdra Kyurem Lanturn Lapras Latias Latios Lickilicky Ludicolo Magnezone Mandibuzz Meganium Metang Mew Milotic Miltank Misdreavus Muk Munchlax Musharna Ninetales Noctowl Porygon Porygon2 Quagsire Regice Regigigas Registeel Roselia Roserade Rotom-C Rotom-W Salamence Scrafty Scraggy Serperior Shaymin Shelgon Slowking Snorlax Spiritomb Tentacool Throh Togekiss Togetic Torterra Toxicroak Tropius Tyranitar Umbreon Uxie Venusaur Vileplume Virizion Walrein Wartortle Wigglytuff Wobbuffet Zapdos Zweilous Tyranitar SpDefensive + Stone Edge Alomomola Amoonguss Ampharos Azumarill Blastoise Breloom Bronzong Carracosta Celebi Chansey Cobalion Cofagrigus Conkeldurr Cottonee Cresselia Donphan Dragonair Dragonite Drapion Druddigon Dusclops Escavalier Feraligatr Ferroseed Forretress Gabite Garbodor Gastrodon Gligar Gliscor Granbull Gurdurr Gyarados Hariyama Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Huntail Jirachi Lanturn Leafeon Lickilicky Lilligant Ludicolo Luxray Machamp Machoke Marowak Meganium Metagross Metang Mew Milotic Muk Musharna Nidoqueen Omanyte Omastar Phione Piloswine Politoed Poliwrath Porygon2 Quagsire Qwilfish Regirock Rhydon Rhyperior Rotom-C Sableye Salamence Sandslash Scizor Seadra Seismitoad Serperior Shaymin Shelgon Skarmory Slowbro Spiritomb Steelix Stunfisk Suicune Swalot Swampert Tangela Tangrowth Tentacruel Throh Torterra Toxicroak Uxie Vaporeon Venusaur Vigoroth Vileplume Virizion Wartortle Weezing Whimsicott Whiscash Wormadam-G Wormadam-S Politoed Choice Scarf (Weather: Rain) Alomomola Amoonguss Articuno Azumarill Blastoise Blissey Celebi Chansey Cresselia Dragonair Dragonite Dusclops Feraligatr Ferroseed Frillish Gyarados Jellicent Jynx Kingdra Lanturn Lapras Latias Ludicolo Mantine Meganium Milotic Munchlax Ninetales Politoed Poliwrath Regice Regigigas Registeel Roselia Rotom-C Shedinja Shelgon Slowbro Slowking Snorlax Suicune Tentacool Tentacruel Togetic Toxicroak Tyranitar Umbreon Vaporeon Virizion Walrein Wartortle Terrakion Choice Scarf Alomomola Amoonguss Blastoise Bronzong Claydol Cofagrigus Cresselia Deoxys-D Donphan Druddigon Duosion Dusclops Dusknoir Forretress Gallade Garbodor Gligar Gliscor Golurk Gothitelle Gurdurr Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Jellicent Jirachi Latias Leafeon Luxray Meganium Mesprit Metang Mew Milotic Misdreavus Musharna Nidoking Nidoqueen Poliwrath Quagsire Qwilfish Reuniclus Rhydon Sandslash Seadra Shelgon Skarmory Slowbro Spiritomb Stunfisk Suicune Swalot Swampert Tangela Tangrowth Torterra Toxicroak Uxie Vaporeon Venusaur Vileplume Weezing Wobbuffet Wormadam-G Gliscor Swords Dance (+2 Attack) Abomasnow Alomomola Armaldo Articuno Azelf Blastoise Bronzong Celebi Chansey Charizard Chimecho Claydol Cloyster Cobalion Cofagrigus Cottonee Cradily Cresselia Crustle Cryogonal Deoxys-D Donphan Dusclops Dusknoir Eelektross Empoleon Exeggutor Ferroseed Ferrothorn Forretress Glaceon Golbat Granbull Gurdurr Gyarados Heatran Heracross Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Illumise Latias Leafeon Lickilicky Ludicolo Magcargo Magikarp (OU One Speed, One Gear, One Moveset [Air Balloon]) Magnezone Mandibuzz Mantine Masquerain Meganium Mesprit Metagross Mew Milotic Misdreavus Mismagius Moltres Musharna Ninetales Pelipper Piloswine Pinsir Poliwrath Porygon2 Probopass Quagsire Regigigas Reuniclus Rotom Rotom-F Rotom-H Rotom-S Rotom-W Sandslash Scyther Seadra Shedinja Shelgon Shuckle Skarmory Slowbro Solrock Suicune Swampert Swoobat Tangela Tangrowth Terrakion Tyranitar Uxie Vigoroth Volbeat Weezing Whirlipede Wobbuffet Wormadam-G Zapdos Jirachi SubPara Aggron Alomomola Altaria Amoonguss Ampharos Arbok Arcanine Audino Azelf Azumarill Basculin Basculin-B Bastiodon Beheeyem Bibarel Bisharp Blastoise Blissey Bouffalant Braviary Breloom Bronzong Camerupt Carracosta Celebi Chandelure Chansey Charizard Chimecho Clamperl Claydol Clefable Cloyster Cobalion Cofagrigus Conkeldurr Corsola Cottonee Crawdaunt Cresselia Crobat Crustle Darmanitan Deoxys-D Dewgong Donphan Dragonair Dragonite Drapion Drifblim Druddigon Dunsparce Duosion Dusclops Dusknoir Eelektross Electabuzz Electivire Electrode Emboar Emolga Empoleon Entei Exeggutor Exploud Feraligatr Flareon Floatzel Fraxure Frillish Gabite Garbodor Gardevoir Gastrodon Gligar Gliscor Golbat Golduck Golurk Gorebyss Gothitelle Granbull Gurdurr Gyarados Hariyama Haxorus Heatmor Heatran Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Huntail Hydreigon Hypno Infernape Jellicent Jirachi Kabutops Kangaskhan Kingdra Kingler Klinklang Krookodile Lairon Lampent Landorus Lanturn Lapras Latias Latios Leafeon Lickilicky Lilligant Lopunny Ludicolo Lumineon Luxray Machamp Machoke Magcargo Magmortar Magneton Magnezone Mandibuzz Manectric Mantine Marowak Masquerain Mawile Meganium Mesprit Metagross Metang Mew Milotic Miltank Misdreavus Moltres Muk Munchlax Murkrow Musharna Natu Nidoqueen Ninetales Octillery Omanyte Omastar Pelipper Phione Piloswine Politoed Poliwrath Porygon Porygon2 Probopass Quagsire Qwilfish Raikou Rapidash Regigigas Regirock Registeel Relicanth Reuniclus Rhydon Rhyperior Rotom Rotom-C Rotom-H Rotom-S Rotom-W Sableye Salamence Samurott Sandslash Sawsbuck Scrafty Scraggy Scyther Seadra Seaking Seismitoad Serperior Shaymin Shelgon Sigilyph Simipour Simisear Skarmory Slaking Slowbro Slowking Snorlax Spiritomb Staraptor Starmie Steelix Stoutland Stunfisk Sudowoodo Suicune Swalot Swampert Swanna Tangela Tangrowth Tauros Tentacool Tentacruel Throh Togekiss Togetic Torkoal Torterra Toxicroak Tropius Typhlosion Umbreon Unfezant Uxie Vaporeon Venusaur Vespiquen Victini Vigoroth Vileplume Volcarona Wailord Walrein Wartortle Weezing Whimsicott Whirlipede Whiscash Wigglytuff Wobbuffet Wormadam-G Wynaut Xatu Zapdos Zebstrika Zweilous Landorus Choice Scarf (Weather: Sandstorm) Alomomola Blastoise Breloom Bronzong Chansey Chimecho Claydol Cobalion Cofagrigus Cradily Cresselia Deoxys-D Dragonite Dusclops Dusknoir Empoleon Ferroseed Ferrothorn Forretress Granbull Gurdurr Gyarados Heatran Hippowdon Hitmontop Latias Lickilicky Ludicolo Magnezone Meganium Mesprit Metagross Mew Milotic Misdreavus Musharna Piloswine Politoed Poliwrath Porygon2 Probopass Quagsire Regigigas Reuniclus Rotom Sawsbuck Seadra Serperior Shaymin Shelgon Skarmory Slowbro Suicune Swampert Terrakion Tyranitar Uxie Vigoroth Virizion Weezing Wobbuffet Wormadam-G Sets with Air Balloon are calculated into these which is why Cobalion is anywhere near Landorus' list Step 2 – Sorting!* After making 10 complete lists, I took Jirachi’s long list and added Pokémon from the other lists to make the main list. If a Pokémon is already on the main list and they are listed on one of the other 9 lists, they get a star next to their name and an additional star for each and every instance of being repeated, with 9 Stars being the current maximum. Step 3 – Tiering! Using the stars given to every Pokémon, I sorted the Pokémon into tiers based on the number of stars they have and cropped out the Pokémon with no stars for convenience. (The list would be very long otherwise) I present to you the purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List": Purely Defensive Anti-Metagame "Tier List" Marvel Tier *******~~Magneto~~ Milotic [Marvel Scale] S Tier ****Alomomola ****Cresselia ****Dusclops ****Shelgon ****Suicune A Tier ***Chansey ***Gyarados ***Poliwrath ***Slowbro B Tier **Cofagrigus **Deoxys-D **Dragonite **Gurdurr **Hippowdon **Hitmontop **Latias **Lickilicky **Meganium **Mew **Musharna **Porygon2 **Quagsire **Seadra **Uxie **Weezing C Tier *Amoonguss *Blastoise *Bronzong *Celebi *Donphan *Empoleon *Hippopotas *Ludicolo *Metang *Regigigas *Skarmory *Wobbuffet *Wormadam-G D Tier Cobalion Dragonair Forretress Gligar Gliscor Granbull Heatran Jellicent Jirachi Leafeon Luxray Mesprit Metagross Misdreavus Ninetales Piloswine Politoed Probopass Sandslash Swampert Tangela Tangrowth Torterra Toxicroak Tyranitar Vaporeon Vigoroth Wartortle E Tier Cradily Druddigon Dusknoir Feraligatr Ferroseed Frillish Garbodor Gastrodon Golbat Hariyama Kingdra Lanturn Lapras Magnezone Mandibuzz Mantine Masquerain Moltres Muk Munchlax Nidoqueen Porygon Qwilfish Reuniclus Rhydon Rotom-C Rotom-W Salamence Serperior Shaymin Slowking Snorlax Spiritomb Swalot Tentacool Tentacruel Throh Umbreon Venusaur Vileplume Virizion Walrein Whirlipede Zapdos F Tier Ampharos Articuno Audino Azumarill Blissey Breloom Charizard Chimecho Claydol Clefable Cloyster Cottonee Crustle Eelektross Gardevoir Gothitelle Hypno Magcargo Miltank Pelipper Phione Regirock Registeel Rotom Rotom-H Rotom-S Scyther Seismitoad Steelix Stunfisk Terrakion Togekiss Togetic Torkoal Tropius Whiscash G Tier** Altaria Azelf Bibarel Carracosta Conkeldurr Cryogonal Drapion Electabuzz Exeggutor Ferrothorn Fraxure Gabite Gallade Golurk Gorebyss Grumpig Haxorus Huntail Hydreigon Latios Lilligant Lumineon Machamp Machoke Marowak Noctowl Octillery Omanyte Omastar Regice Relicanth Rhyperior Roselia Sableye Samurott Sawsbuck Scrafty Scraggy Shedinja Volcarona Wailord Whimsicott Wigglytuff Zweilous Step 4 – Offensive Calcs! Simply tanking hits isn't enough. King Killers need to be able to dish-out hits strong enough to break the Pokemon they're walling. So with that in mind, I took the lists of Pokemon that wall each top 11 threat and went through one by one, figuring out which Pokemon can deal 50% or more per hit to the Pokemon they wall. That allowed me to creat these lists of "true" counters for each of the Top 11 Pokemon. These Pokemon take less than 50% from any move the Offensive sets above carry, while being able to, at the very least, 2HKO the most common Defensive variants of the the same Pokemon: Dragonite Bulky DD (Multiscale broken) Bronzong Celebi Cloyster Cobalion Cresselia Crustle Donphan Dusclops Empoleon Gliscor Granbull Gyarados Heatran Hippowdon Hitmontop Lickilicky Luxray Mesprit Metagross Milotic Musharna Piloswine Porygon2 Probopass Regirock Relicanth Rhydon Seadra Slowbro Suicune Tangrowth Torterra Wobbuffet Ferrothorn Standard Aggron Altaria Ampharos Arcanine Armaldo Breloom Cacturne Celebi Chandelure Charizard Cobalion Combusken Conkeldurr Cradily Darmanitan Dragonite Druddigon Durant Dusknoir Eelektross Electabuzz Emboar Empoleon Entei Escavalier Exeggutor Flareon Gardevoir Granbull Hariyama Heatmor Heatran Hippowdon Hitmontop Infernape Jirachi Kangaskhan Kingdra Lampent Latias Leafeon Lickilicky Lucario Luxray Machamp Machoke Magcargo Magmortar Magneton Magnezone Mawile Metagross Mew Moltres Muk Murkrow Nidoqueen Ninetales Porygon2 Raikou Rapidash Regice Reuniclus Rotom-C Rotom-H Salamence Scizor Scrafty Shaymin Simisear Snorlax Tangrowth Togekiss Torkoal Torterra Tropius Typhlosion Venusaur Victini Volcarona Weezing Zapdos Zweilous Gliscor Defensive Abomasnow Armaldo Articuno Azelf Blastoise Bronzong Celebi Charizard Claydol Cloyster Cobalion Cresselia Cryogonal Dusclops Dusknoir Eelektross Empoleon Exeggutor Ferrothorn Forretress Glaceon Granbull Gyarados Heatran Heracross Hippowdon Latias Lickilicky Ludicolo Magcargo Magnezone Mantine Masquerain Mesprit Metagross Mew Milotic Mismagius Moltres Musharna Ninetales Pelipper Piloswine Porygon2 Quagsire Reuniclus Rotom Rotom-F Rotom-H Rotom-S Rotom-W Seadra Slowbro Solrock Suicune Swampert Swoobat Tangela Tangrowth Terrakion Tyranitar Wobbuffet Zapdos Heatran Specially Defensive Azumarill Blastoise Blissey Charizard Cradily Dragonair Dragonite Empoleon Feraligatr Gardevoir Gastrodon Gorebyss Gurdurr Gyarados Hariyama Heatran Jellicent Kingdra Lapras Latias Lickilicky Lumineon Miltank Muk Munchlax Octillery Politoed Poliwrath Probopass Quagsire Regigigas Rotom-H Rotom-W Samurott Seismitoad Slowbro Slowking Snorlax Suicune Swampert Terrakion Throh Togekiss Tyranitar Vaporeon Wailord Whiscash Jirachi Specially Defensive Aggron Altaria Ampharos Arbok Arcanine Azelf Azumarill Basculin Basculin-B Bisharp Bouffalant Braviary Breloom Bronzong Camerupt Carracosta Celebi Chandelure Charizard Clefable Cobalion Conkeldurr Crawdaunt Crustle Darmanitan Donphan Dragonite Drapion Druddigon Eelektross Electivire Emboar Empoleon Entei Exeggutor Exploud Feraligatr Flareon Floatzel Gabite Gastrodon Gligar Gliscor Golduck Golurk Granbull Gyarados Hariyama Haxorus Heatmor Heatran Hippowdon Hitmontop Hydreigon Infernape Jellicent Kabutops Kangaskhan Kingdra Kingler Krookodile Lairon Lampent Landorus Lickilicky Luxray Machamp Magcargo Magmortar Magneton Manectric Marowak Mawile Metagross Mew Miltank Moltres Muk Nidoqueen Ninetales Octillery Omastar Piloswine Politoed Poliwrath Quagsire Raikou Rapidash Regigigas Regirock Relicanth Rhydon Rhyperior Rotom-H Rotom-W Salamence Samurott Sandslash Sawsbuck Scrafty Seismitoad Simipour Simisear Slaking Slowbro Slowking Snorlax Staraptor Starmie Steelix Stoutland Stunfisk Sudowoodo Swampert Tangrowth Tauros Togekiss Torterra Toxicroak Typhlosion Victini Vigoroth Volcarona Whiscash Wobbuffet Wormadam-G Zapdos Zebstrika Zweilous Landorus Choice Scarf Alomomola Blastoise Breloom Bronzong Claydol Cobalion Cofagrigus Cradily Cresselia Dragonite Dusclops Dusknoir Empoleon Ferrothorn Granbull Gyarados Heatran Hippowdon Hitmontop Latias Lickilicky Ludicolo Magnezone Meganium Mesprit Metagross Mew Milotic Musharna Piloswine Politoed Poliwrath Porygon2 Quagsire Regigigas Reuniclus Rotom Sawsbuck Seadra Serperior Shaymin Shelgon Slowbro Suicune Swampert Terrakion Tyranitar Vigoroth Virizion Wobbuffet Politoed Defensive Azumarill Celebi Dragonite Jellicent Kingdra Lanturn Latias Ludicolo Meganium Ninetales Politoed Regice Rotom-C Slowbro Snorlax Toxicroak Tyranitar Vaporeon Virizion Rotom-W Bulky Attacker Altaria Amoonguss Ampharos Celebi Clefable Cradily Dragonair Dragonite Druddigon Eelektross Electabuzz Empoleon Fraxure Gallade Gardevoir Gastrodon Gurdurr Hariyama Haxorus Hydreigon Jellicent Kecleon Kingdra Kyurem Lanturn Latias Latios Lickilicky Ludicolo Magnezone Meganium Mew Miltank Muk Musharna Ninetales Porygon Porygon2 Regice Regigigas Roselia Rotom-C Rotom-W Salamence Scrafty Serperior Shaymin Shelgon Slowking Snorlax Spiritomb Togekiss Torterra Toxicroak Tropius Tyranitar Venusaur Vileplume Virizion Wobbuffet Zapdos Zweilous Scizor Choice Band Amoonguss Donphan Dragonite Gliscor Gyarados Hippowdon Hitmontop Jirachi Luxray Moltres Nidoqueen Pelipper Poliwrath Rotom-S Salamence Scyther Shelgon Suicune Tentacruel Torkoal Tropius Volcarona Weezing Zapdos Terrakion Choice Scarf Amoonguss Blastoise Bronzong Claydol Cresselia Donphan Druddigon Duosion Dusknoir Gallade Gligar Gliscor Golurk Gothitelle Gurdurr Hippopotas Hippowdon Hitmontop Jellicent Jirachi Latias Leafeon Luxray Meganium Mesprit Metang Mew Milotic Musharna Nidoking Nidoqueen Poliwrath Quagsire Qwilfish Reuniclus Rhydon Sandslash Seadra Shelgon Slowbro Stunfisk Suicune Swampert Tangela Tangrowth Torterra Toxicroak Uxie Vaporeon Venusaur Vileplume Wobbuffet Wormadam-G Tyranitar Specially Defensive Ampharos Azumarill Breloom Bronzong Carracosta Celebi Cobalion Conkeldurr Donphan Dragonite Drapion Druddigon Dusclops Escavalier Feraligatr Gabite Gliscor Granbull Gurdurr Gyarados Hariyama Hippowdon Hitmontop Huntail Jirachi Lanturn Leafeon Lickilicky Lilligant Ludicolo Luxray Machamp Machoke Marowak Metagross Mew Muk Omastar Piloswine Politoed Poliwrath Qwilfish Regirock Rhydon Rhyperior Rotom-C Salamence Sandslash Scizor Seismitoad Serperior Shaymin Slowbro Swampert Tangela Tangrowth Throh Torterra Toxicroak Venusaur Virizion Whiscash Step 5 – The “Finished” List! Taking the Purely Defensive Tier List from before, I gave each Pokemon on that list one extra star for each "True Counter" list they appear on, adding 11 stars to the maximum amount possible. After sorting the Pokemon back into tiers, I created and present to you the the True Anti-Top 11 Tier List: Code: Bro-Tier *************Slowbro S-Tier **********Dragonite (Multiscale greatly influences calcs and ranking) **********Gyarados **********Hippowdon (Sand Stream) **********Lickilicky **********Suicune A-Tier *********Hitmontop *********Latias *********Mew *********Milotic (Marvel Scale greatly influences calcs and ranking) *********Poliwrath B-Tier ********Celebi ********Cresselia ********Dusclops ********Empoleon ********Shelgon C-Tier *******Bronzong *******Musharna *******Porygon2 *******Quagsire *******Wobbuffet (Counter & Mirror Coat greatly influence placement) D-Tier ******Cobalion ******Donphan ******Granbull ******Gurdurr ******Heatran ******Ludicolo ******Luxray ******Meganium ******Metagross ******Seadra ******Swampert ******Tangrowth ******Torterra E-Tier *****Alomomola *****Amoonguss *****Blastoise *****Gliscor *****Jellicent *****Ninetales (Drought) *****Piloswine *****Politoed (Drizzle) *****Regigigas *****Toxicroak *****Tyranitar (Sand Stream) F-Tier ****Druddigon ****Hariyama ****Jirachi ****Kingdra ****Magnezone ****Mesprit ****Muk ****Salamence ****Snorlax ****Weezing ****Zapdos G-Tier ***Chansey ***Cofagrigus ***Cradily ***Dusknoir ***Leafeon ***Moltres ***Nidoqueen ***Reuniclus ***Rhydon ***Rotom-C ***Rotom-W ***Sandslash ***Shaymin ***Tangela ***Uxie ***Vaporeon ***Venusaur ***Virizion ***Wormadam-G H-Tier **Ampharos **Azumarill **Breloom **Charizard **Deoxys-D **Dragonair **Eelektross **Feraligatr **Gastrodon **Gligar **Hippopotas **Lanturn **Metang **Probopass **Rotom-H **Serperior **Slowking **Togekiss **Vigoroth I-Tier *Claydol *Forretress *Gardevoir *Magcargo *Miltank *Munchlax *Qwilfish *Regirock *Seismitoad *Skarmory *Terrakion *Throh *Tropius *Vileplume *Whiscash J-Tier Altaria Clefable Cloyster Conkeldurr Crustle Exeggutor Lapras Machamp Mantine Masquerain Misdreavus Pelipper Porygon Regice Rotom Rotom-S Scrafty Scyther Spiritomb Stunfisk Tentacruel Torkoal Volcarona Wartortle Zweilous K-Tier Articuno Azelf Carracosta Drapion Electabuzz Ferroseed Ferrothorn Frillish Gabite Gallade Garbodor Golbat Golurk Gothitelle Haxorus Hydreigon Machoke Mandibuzz Marowak Octillery Omastar Relicanth Rhyperior Samurott Sawsbuck Steelix Swalot Tentacool Umbreon Walrein Whirlipede L-Tier Aggron Arcanine Armaldo Audino Blissey Chandelure Chimecho Cottonee Cryogonal Darmanitan Emboar Entei Escavalier Flareon Fraxure Gorebyss Heatmor Huntail Hypno Infernape Kangaskhan Lampent Latios Lilligant Lumineon Magmortar Magneton Mawile Phione Raikou Rapidash Registeel Roselia Scizor Simisear Togetic Typhlosion Victini Wailord M-Tier* Abomasnow Arbok Basculin Basculin-B Bibarel Bisharp Bouffalant Braviary Camerupt Crawdaunt Duosion Electivire Exploud Floatzel Glaceon Golduck Grumpig Heracross Kabutops Kecleon Kingler Krookodile Kyurem Lairon Landorus Manectric Mismagius Nidoking Noctowl Omanyte Roserade Rotom-F Sableye Scraggy Shedinja Simipour Slaking Solrock Staraptor Starmie Stoutland Sudowoodo Swoobat Tauros Whimsicott Wigglytuff Zebstrika Nope-Tier* Bastiodon Beheeyem Cacturne Clamperl Combusken Corsola Crobat Dewgong Drifblim Dunsparce Electrode Emolga Illumise Jynx Klinklang Lopunny Magikarp (OU One Speed, One Gear, One Moveset [Air Balloon]) Murkrow Natu Pinsir Seaking Shuckle Sigilyph Swanna Unfezant Vespiquen Volbeat Wormadam-S Wynaut Xatu Slowbro has come out as the top Pokemon to deal with the Top 11 Pokemon in OU with Dragonite, Gyarados, Hippowdon, Suicune, and, surprisingly enough, Lickilicky right behind him. Keep in mind that a lot of these Pokemon such as Empoleon, Cobalion, or Heatran have Balloon sets which let them get past Pokemon like Landorus & Heatran that they normally wouldn't be able to. Intimidate is also taken into account, so Pokemon like Granbull & Gyarados are higher than they would be without it. I'm expanding the list to the Top 20 in OU next update. I'll base it on April OU Usage when that goes up next week. Until then, break the mold and take down the kings! __________________ Take chances, make mistakes, get messy! Last edited by Katakiri; Apr 24th, 2012 at 11:10:12 PM.

Apr 11th, 2012, 12:29:39 AM	#2
Katakiri Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 758 Smogon Mobile. Ugh.	Reserved. __________________ Take chances, make mistakes, get messy! Last edited by Katakiri; Apr 24th, 2012 at 8:31:47 PM.

Apr 11th, 2012, 12:50:02 AM	#3
bluemon Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,498 ♠ AmoongBro ♠	golf clap really nice job. time to make a team with poliwrath and shelgon __________________ AmoongBro User (22:54:20) *** Your rank in Dream World OU is 15/16972 [1442 points / 244 battles]!

Apr 11th, 2012, 1:01:11 AM	#4
IcyMan28 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,793	If you use a Flame Orb on Milotic (inadvisable, obviously), would Rest+Sleep Talk even be necessary? The whole point of that set is to use Rest as both recovery and to activate Marvel Scale. If FO does the latter, I would much rather use Recover for the instant heal and lack of being a sitting duck otherwise. Milotic's Dragon Tail is laughably weak, though, so it obviously is less effective against Sub users. Having something to help with this helps make the RestTalk set less of a liability, because Milotic can really shine if given the chance. __________________ In-Game Name: Anthony FC: 3309 2165 3231 I use legal hacks.

Apr 11th, 2012, 1:06:08 AM	#5
ThePillsburyDoughBoy Ttar by Doughboy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 959 Mentor	I know this may be asking too much, but do your calcs include SR damage or SR+1 layer of Spikes? SR+1 layer of Spikes is the amount used for the "Counter that Pokemon-OU" thread. __________________ Check Out the 1 vs 1 Metagame: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3483807

Apr 11th, 2012, 1:14:44 AM	#6
Ithilanor Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 242	This is really interesting; great job, and thank you!

Apr 11th, 2012, 1:31:16 AM	#8
bluemon Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,498 ♠ AmoongBro ♠	in defense of katakiri, the top walls either resist or are neutral to hazards anyways.... (you dont see articuno anywhere, do you? ;) ) __________________ AmoongBro User (22:54:20) *** Your rank in Dream World OU is 15/16972 [1442 points / 244 battles]!

Apr 11th, 2012, 1:54:18 AM	#9
Jinzha Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 49 Netherlands	Poliwrath might just be the solution to all my problems!! Now I just need a seventh party slot or something xD. Great to see some heavily underlooked walls getting some attention.

Apr 11th, 2012, 7:41:34 AM	#10
Tetrinity Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 261 Cardiff, Wales	Just out of interest, I pulled out the Pokémon that are listed for both Scizor and Rotom-W: VoltTurn "Counters" Amoonguss Dragonite Dusclops Jirachi Metang Milotic Salamence Shelgon Tropius Zapdos Pretty interesting list, but some of these Pokémon definitely couldn't be considered as counters due to being incapable of hitting back. I've picked out a few that I feel could actually do something useful. ;) Amoonguss @ Leftovers Ability: Effect Spore (wish they'd hurry up and release Regenerator...) Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk) EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD - Spore - Stun Spore - Giga Drain - Hidden Power [Fire] Amoonguss has real potential, in my opinion, thanks to Spore and STAB Giga Drain, which 2HKOs all standard Rotom-W (bulky attacker only after Stealth Rock) while scarfed Rotom-W can only 4HKO after Stealth Rock with HP Fire even before you consider the recovery from Giga Drain. Choice Band Scizor is a little more problematic, especially if Sleep Clause is active, since U-Turn is a guaranteed 2HKO and Bullet Punch is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. The standard OU Amoonguss set carries HP Ice, but even HP Fire can only manage a 2HKO (61.8% - 73.5%). Against Scizor, Amoonguss' best shot is either waiting until hazards wear it down enough to take it out with a single HP Fire, or catching it on the switch with status. Salamence @ Leftovers Ability: Intimidate Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk) / Relaxed (+Def, -Spe) EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe - Wish - Protect / Roost - Dragon Tail - Flamethrower I have to admit Salamence surprised me by showing up, but it's actually pretty damn good at the job. Against more standard Mence like DD or Mix, Rotom's best shot is Volt Switch (3HKO, 2HKO after Stealth Rock) while it fares even worse against the defensive set (4HKO, 3HKO after rocks). Scizor is a pain against the offensive sets, grabbing a 2HKO after rocks with Bullet Punch even after Intimidate. The defensive version pulls through, however; after Intimidate, Bullet Punch scores a mere 4HKO with rocks while Salamence gets a guaranteed OHKO with Flamethrower. Mence can then Wish/Roost off the damage. Even if the Scizor turns out to be a bulky Swords Dance variety, a +1 Bullet Punch is only a 3HKO after rocks while Flamethrower has a 56.25% chance of a OHKO with rocks. With sun support or the tiniest amount of extra residual damage, Scizor wouldn't have a hope in hell. It should be noted that the natures mostly just depend on what you care more about - outspeeding more threats such as Adamant Breloom or dealing more damage with Dragon Tail. You can optionally run Bold 252 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe, which lets Mence outspeed max-Speed Jolly Scizor outside of Bullet Punch at the cost of a small amount of bulk (still a 4HKO after rocks, mind you). Zapdos @ Leftovers Ability: Pressure Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk) EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe - Discharge / Thunderbolt - Roost - Heat Wave - Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Flying] / Roar The last Pokémon that caught my eye was Zapdos, although the standard OU sets won't do the job. In neutral weather, scarfed Rotom-W's Hydro Pump has a decent chance of 2HKOing SubRoost Zapdos, the most specially bulky standard OU set, even without rocks. The story is a little more pleasant with the UU specially defensive set, with Hydro Pump giving an extremely small chance of a 2HKO after rocks - Zapdos will generally be able to stall out Rotom's four Hydro Pump uses (Pressure) with Roost. Zapdos is then very likely to 2HKO using Thunderbolt, and can guarantee it with rocks. If Discharge is being used over Thunderbolt, HP Grass can achieve the same job. Rotom isn't really where Zapdos shines, though; Scizor really struggles against it. Even 4/0 neutral Zapdos is only 2HKOed after rocks by Pursuit, Scizor's strongest attack against it (!). Two Superpowers in a row can only 2HKO after rocks with max damage rolls both times. Zapdos is then capable of killing Scizor twice over with Heat Wave. Against the specially defensive set mentioned above, Zapdos is only 3HKO'd after rocks by Pursuit, which is easily Roosted away. Choice Band Scizor is then OHKOed by Heat Wave, while bulky Swords Dance is OHKOed more than 80% of the time, guaranteed after rocks. Bearing in mind that a VoltTurn team by its very nature will be taking plenty of residual damage from hazards, I'd say these make reasonably solid counters to the most common VoltTurn core out there. There are probably others in the list that perform very well too. What do you guys think? __________________ Scramble Challanges Platinum, Medium-Hard Difficulty (Champion!) White, Obnoxious Difficulty (two updates) Last edited by Tetrinity; Apr 11th, 2012 at 9:42:52 AM.

Apr 11th, 2012, 2:35:53 PM	#13
The Silent Storm Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 99	In the ''volturn counter Section'' I would like to add Rocky Helmet Skarmory While he's pratically killed by Rotom-w Skarmory is perfect against Landorus and Scizor, wearing them down and blocking the volturn chain, this is very vital sometimes when you aren't capable to set up the SR or your opponent has a problematic spinner like say Tentacruel or Starmie. Anyway, great thread, might return with other things __________________ Gone for good

Apr 12th, 2012, 2:51:21 AM	#14
Prankster Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 360	i am surprised to see that tropius AND masquerain survives a 2hko from a scizor This is really helpful info. thanks I am definitely gonna use that awesome harvest subseed set now __________________ http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Pra...ug--2011-11-11 This is an over 1000 turn battle against one of my old friends. Enjoy! (19:52:33) *** Shoujiki Hakurei muted Prankster for 10 seconds. (20:43:14) +blarajan: i should honestly ban you for too much stupid.

Apr 12th, 2012, 6:38:03 AM	#15
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,095 PA	I actually use to do this all the time, but I would place in raw stats for ditermining rather than general top 20 pokemon. __________________ I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown. I am PrincesoBubblegum

Apr 12th, 2012, 12:50:54 PM	#16
Joeyboy Kent had a dog Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,230 Art by Bummer Mentor	Wobbu Wobbu! Wobbuffet is mentioned in most lists, he deserves more respect. Sure this metagame is more offensive, everyone is stronger, but Wobbuffet hasn't gotten any worse this gen. Hell if he can function in Gen 4 Uber he can function in Gen 5 OU. He's not a fan of Volt-Turn though :D __________________ VM for an OU Rate \| Latest OU Mini-Tour \| Smog Work

Apr 16th, 2012, 10:52:40 AM	#17
No Luck Involved Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,301	Excellent thread! I'm really looking forward to the offensive calcs. __________________ I like birds Keep it sexy An RU blast from the past!

Apr 16th, 2012, 1:30:39 PM	#18
Katakiri Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 758 Smogon Mobile. Ugh.	Sorry about the wait on the offensive calcs. School comes before Pokemon. I'll try to get it out in the next couple days. __________________ Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!

Apr 24th, 2012, 8:52:04 PM	#19
Katakiri Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 758 Smogon Mobile. Ugh.	Alrighty! Everything has been updated and the true Top 11 counter lists have been made. Slowbro was able to back-up his Defensive Bulk with his Base 100 Special Attack and great coverage to come out on top. Lickilicky made a very surprising jump from B-Tier of the Defensive List to S-Tier of the final list. His sheer natural bulk & lack of weaknesses makes him very hard to 2HKO without Fighting-type moves while his amazing coverage options allow him to whittle away at most threats and take 50% off them with a SE coverage move like Power Whip, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, or Earthquake. Suicune still stands tall from the previous list as an immovable object with it's Crocune or Defensive sets while having the bulk and coverage options on any other sets to come out on top. Poliwrath keeps a firm grip on it's A-Tier ranking showing just how well he can hang with and take down the big boys despite his RU tiering. Great bulk, STAB Fighting moves with Ice Punch or even Waterfall makes Poliwrath a top threat to the top threats of OU. One last thing that took me by surprise was Granbull tying with Balloon Heatran in tiering. Intimidate is definitely not to be underestimated as it gives Granbull great artificial bulk for switching-in without losing even 40% of it's HP. With Close Combat & the Elemental Punches for coverage with great support moves, Granbull, very surprisingly, can hold it's own in OU. __________________ Take chances, make mistakes, get messy! Last edited by Katakiri; Apr 24th, 2012 at 10:52:04 PM. Reason: typo

Apr 24th, 2012, 10:17:34 PM	#20
Tetrinity Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 261 Cardiff, Wales	Interesting... may well have to test out Poliwrath on a team some time. I don't think I've ever even seen one on the ladder before... __________________ Scramble Challanges Platinum, Medium-Hard Difficulty (Champion!) White, Obnoxious Difficulty (two updates)

Apr 24th, 2012, 10:32:42 PM	#21
blarajan no abuse pls Moderator Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,731 Mentor	This is fanfuckingtastic Katakiri. Very cool, good job. __________________ Team Babby: Little Cup in Ubers RMT

Apr 25th, 2012, 3:00:34 AM	#22
Knight of Cydonia Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 126 Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.	Lickilicky could do with an OU analysis now.

Apr 25th, 2012, 8:57:15 AM	#23
zyrefredric Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 523 Mandaue City, Philippines	What Lickilicky set brought him to such a high tier? I've been using him as a special wall/phazer, with Curse/Dragon Tail/Rest/Sleep Talk, but maybe I'm using it wrong? __________________ Want to PLAY a brand new metagame? Visit this Equal BST Metagame thread and tell us what you think. Ever tried A Monotype Take on the OU Metagame? Visit the thread and share your experience.