np: LC – Freebird

[spuds4ever]

Scraggy: So, uh, yeah. Why is this suspect? If anything, it will be even easier to check now with mienfoo reclaiming his throne of tyranny over LC.

Murkrow: A very solid offensive pokemon and has no real 100% counters outside or aron in the sand. If it's running standard life orb, it's going to deal quite a lot of damage and there's nothing you can do about it really, but on the other hand, with a life orb, it can't switch in for peanuts and is still not too difficult to play around. Sub-roost beaten by something that can take a BB and dish out some super effective damage. Still a v dangerous set, but I haven't seen it enough to make a good judgement.

Drilbur: Probably the best revenge-killer in the tier, but can't sweep due to the serious lack of things it can OHKO with a +2 eviolite EQ. It's tough to deal with if you don't have a specialized counter such as snover or bronzor, but it won't be sweeping you really.

Conclusion: I'm fairly happy with the meta-game atm, over-centralization is a problem but that's the players' fault, not the tier's. The only thing which I don't like much about these three is that you have to usually carry about 2 pokemon (on quite a small list) to check them in your team, which means your options are quite limited, but I guess that goes for any tier just about.

[Heysup]

I guess I'm not the only one surprised by the suspects, though mine is a more pleasant surprise. I still think Murkrow is broken and Scraggy is worth discussing for the sole reason that he doesn't need to use Ice Punch anymore, allowing him to beat a lot of would-be counters.

[Litchi]

Scraggy: Not broken, there are some checks and counters. I'm actually not sure if it even deserves to be here lol.

Drilbur: I hate this thing. Not that broken though. There are actually a lot of way to deal with (bronzor, snover, shroomish, even chikorita, etc).

Murkrow: I've to agree with PoJ, it helps make this metagame more fun and diversified. Rhyhorn, Tirtouga, Porygon, etc. can easily deal with Murkrow. These mons were nearly never used before the unban of Krow. So yeah I think Krow is pretty healthy for the metagame, and not even broken.

[macle]

I don't see anything wrong with the metagame atm but the only suspect that I think could possibly maybe use a ban is Scraggy. Mienfoo is the center of the metagame. A lot of people run it just to deal with Scraggy. With a Scraggy ban, Mienfoo usage might decrease, allowing a more versatile metagame which can be a good thing. Overall though, this might not work and Mienfoo will still be #1 and we lose a nice Pokemon in Scraggy.

opinions?

[blarajan]

The metagame is perfect as is.

Will edit post later with more thought about statements, but I just want to say that right now. There is nothing broken.

[spuds4ever]

I agree with that point macle. Scraggy is one of the reasons I think mienfoo is so high on usage. I think another problem with scraggy is he out-classes so many boosting sweepers. I'd love to use corphish some time, but from a competitive point of view, there is really no excuse to not be using scraggy over him unless you desperately need the synergy. Unfortunately, I don't think banning something just to change usage stats is easy to justify tbh.

[Danilo]

Originally Posted by Fat spuds4ever

I agree with that point macle. Scraggy is one of the reasons I think mienfoo is so high on usage. I think another problem with scraggy is he out-classes so many boosting sweepers. I'd love to use corphish some time, but from a competitive point of view, there is really no excuse to not be using scraggy over him unless you desperately need the synergy.

Firstly, I'd like to address that something shouldn't be banned because it outclasses some things. That argument basically boils down to "good Pokemon make bad Pokemon look bad". Not only is that argument silly, but it's also false. There are plenty of other viable set up sweepers in the tier. In the physical department there is Timburr, Tirtouga, Dwebble, Drilburr, Teddiursa, and likely others that I have forgotten. If Scraggy was the only physical set up sweeper in the tier, then I could see the legitimacy of your argument.

Originally Posted by Fat macle

I don't see anything wrong with the metagame atm but the only suspect that I think could possibly maybe use a ban is Scraggy. Mienfoo is the center of the metagame. A lot of people run it just to deal with Scraggy. With a Scraggy ban, Mienfoo usage might decrease, allowing a more versatile metagame which can be a good thing. Overall though, this might not work and Mienfoo will still be #1 and we lose a nice Pokemon in Scraggy.

Secondly, if nothing is wrong with the metagame, why do we need to ban something? This metagame is nearly perfect at the moment. There are a ton of viable mons, innovation is thriving, the metagame isn't dominated by a specific archetype; seems like a great metagame to me. Additionally, with Scraggy usage declining, Mienfoo usage may decline too.

I'm in total agreement with Blarajan, this meta is fine, don't change it.

[Ray Jay]

Originally Posted by Fat macle

I don't see anything wrong with the metagame atm but the only suspect that I think could possibly maybe use a ban is Scraggy. Mienfoo is the center of the metagame. A lot of people run it just to deal with Scraggy. With a Scraggy ban, Mienfoo usage might decrease, allowing a more versatile metagame which can be a good thing. Overall though, this might not work and Mienfoo will still be #1 and we lose a nice Pokemon in Scraggy.

opinions?

I have to disagree with this for the same reasons I posted in the usage stats thread. Mienfoo is crazy common but there are a couple of things to keep in mind. We can't argue that it's only used to check Scraggy; otherwise, you should expect to find Timburr at #1 or #2 in usage as well. The fact of the matter is that it may have arisen to check Scraggy, but it stays consistently at #1 in the usage stats because it's an all around solid Pokemon. Even during the late Gligar era, Mienfoo peaked at #1. If Mienfoo was a one-trick pony (ie: only countered Scraggy) it wouldn't hit number 1 in usage; furthermore, people are not using Mienfoo for the sole purpose of dealing with Scraggy. When I put Mienfoo on a team, I do it because it can help me check Scraggy and ________, whether that be maintain momentum, Knock Off items, take on some variants of Drilbur, use Fake Out, or sweep with Hi Jump Kick. Using a Pokemon for 1 single purpose (especially in LC, where there are a wealth of threats) is simply bad team building, and I believe it's not present here.

[spuds4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat Sir

Firstly, I'd like to address that something shouldn't be banned because it outclasses some things. That argument basically boils down to "good Pokemon make bad Pokemon look bad". Not only is that argument silly, but it's also false. There are plenty of other viable set up sweepers in the tier. In the physical department there is Timburr, Tirtouga, Dwebble, Drilburr, Teddiursa, and likely others that I have forgotten. If Scraggy was the only physical set up sweeper in the tier, then I could see the legitimacy of your argument.

Uh, did you deliberately leave out my last sentence? It would be nice to give some pokemon a chance, but you can't justify banning scraggy just for that as I said earlier.

The tier is completely fine, as Blarajan said, I think it's just players who haven't delved deep enough in this gligar-less metagame.

[Ray Jay]

So I think the meta has basically settled on balance teams that can handle sand and sand teams. This is pretty interesting, as it would at a glance make sand seem like an inviable playstyle, but there's something peculiar people seem to be missing: Drilbur has a very wide options of what it can do. First of all, it can use SD / EQ / X-Scissor / Shadow Claw and all of a sudden walk all over balance teams that rely on a FWG core, provided they don't have Bronzor. I've seen a 4 attack Life Orb set work as a spinner and wreck teams with Ferroseed that rely on stacking hazards. Sand is a much more varied playstyle nowadays; heck, even stall with Sub and Protect on Drilbur alongside Tspikes is viable! Drilbur's admittedly nowhere near broken; in all actuality, it would seem in my testing that Drilbur is actually helping the metagame. This is because it necessitates another threat to be taken into consideration (arguably, that is sand as a whole) which counterintuitively doesn't constrict teambuilding. In all actuality, this helps Grass-types find their niche, gives otherwise set up bait such as Bronzor extreme utility with just one other helpful aspect (in Bronzor's case, access to Stealth Rock) and of course, increases Snover usage. So, Drilbur's nowhere near broken, and I think almost all of us can agree on that. Drilbur is honestly just another reason to use sand (which is a good playstyle that is still never unbeatable).

[Trakyan]

My opinion may be a little off since i havent played much recently due to a stack of projects from school, but anyways here it is.

Murkrow: All around boss, an amazing mon and i outright love it, its however not broken. SR could trouble it(especialy LO variants) but its rather underrated with people saying that it is so often left at low HP, now im gonna quote somebody and i forgot who it is but if its at low HP(especial LO variants) that means its done a fair amount of damage if brave bird/LO recoil has brought it down to 3-4 HP or something. However rock types who resist brave bird and heat wave along with having good defenses(nosepass fits the bill with good defenses on booth sides while having the second highest defense after onix if im not mistaken). The SubRoost set is diferent and still good, its unpredictable and when played right hard to beat while only really needing rapid spin support for LO variants but otherwise only needs hazards like every other sweeper in LC(that and the obvious 'take out its counters' which everything needs.) Murkrow overall adds good variety due to its versatility unlike some mons which use the same set 99% of the time(mienfoo comes to mind, but its FAR from broken given it only has payback to hit ghosts)

Scraggy, well this is an interesting mon. In my opinion rather close to a one trick pony, the generic DD/Drain Punch/Crunch along with what i believe is now becoming ZHB with a very rare scarf set thrown in. Its rather easy to handle, have something neutral to booth STABs and ideally to ZHB/ice punch, best to resist its healing(drain punch) and you end up with a bug type or perhaps a poison type, bug types pretty much wall it without head smash which is extremely rare. Generally a scarfed flying or fighting type is the best counter unless it has two DDs in which case only drillbur has much hope of doing something to it outside of priority users which have a slim chance(maybe croagunk could) but if you let it get +2 i think you deserve to die, simple as that. Not broken but can keep you on edge, if anyones going to blab on about the limited range of checks i'll list a few here: shellmet, mienfoo, mankey, tailow, doduo, wingull(a rather distructive force really, STAB hurricane and 19 speed, if it only got surf/hydro pump...) and basically any figthing/bug/flying type with 16 speed or higher, last ditch attempt would be scarf elekid with cross chop.

Drillbur, it just doesnt hit hard enough in my opinion despite having 19 attack which is the same as max attack mienfoo. Its walled by bronzor who retaliates with STAB gyro ball which will hit hard given the huge speed gap in sand or even HP ice, grass types also have an easish time against drilbur if it doesnt have x scissor, this isnt broken either, just rather annoying given that you cant just scarf to outspeed it or something.

I'm happy with these three staying unbanned, most banworthy would be scraggy or murkrow but murkrow especially i find would be bad if it were banned. What i really want to see is something else take at #1 on usage rather than mienfoo, makes the game stale for me if ever team has one with the same generic set.

[Corkscrew]

I haven't played in a couple of weeks and probably won't till June when my exams finish, but I'd like to ask what people think of Mienfoo.
I've seen a couple of people who seem to think it discourages versatility or whatever. Yet, if you think about how many counters / checks it has (Misdreavus, Murkrow, Larvesta, Ponyta, Croagunk, Shelmet, Foongus, Vullaby, Slowpoke + quite a few more) I think it could be actually encouraging a bit more diversity. There is so much that you can run to check it that it's never really a massive threat to most teams. Also, the increase in Larvesta and Ponyta with flame body makes spamming U-turn all the more risky.

So, yeah what is everyone's opinion on Mienfoo having such high usage? Is it detrimental to the metagame and discourage diversity or does it help to balance the metagame out?

[Methmite]

I also havent played in a very long time: My computer 'sploded, and I only recently got cash fro a new one, so while I havent actually played the meta yet, I can assume its similar to before only without all of gligar's bull. With that in mind my initial reaction to the suspects are as follows:

Murkrow: With the removal of Gligar I think murkrow will see more uses, but I don't think its broken

Scraggy: It wasnt broken when the big 3 were banned, it wasnt broken when they were unbanned, it wont be broken with gligar gone.

Drilbur: Same as scraggy, he wasnt broken before (though sand was arguably the most annoying thing to play against); and I dont think he will be broken now. People may not want to admit it, but Drilbur has other checks and counters not named Bronzor. Murkrow and Cottonee can priority rain dance / Sunny Day respectivley, the latter resisting Drilbur's stab, and remaining neutral to all of his coverage with the exception of X-Scissor (which few people run, to my knowledge - before the unbanning Protect /SD / earthquake/ rock slide was the big set, I dont really see that changing, though again, havent really played). I think it was Ray Jay who pointed out Lileep being a strong sand counter. Those are probably the big ones, but there are also other checks - Max attack LO Totodile can OHKO with Aqua jet 0-0 Eviolite Drilbur (again, i dont know that common set, havent played) after stealth rock damage, and is a garunteed OHKO against Life Orb variants.

Simply put none of the suspects are really that hard to deal with. They're good at their jobs, and thats about it. Banning any of them would be like firing an employee because he was more productive than others in his department.

I'll put in a more experienced PoV when i get one - I do plan on starting back up soon.

[Danilo]

Originally Posted by Fat Corkscrew

I haven't played in a couple of weeks and probably won't till June when my exams finish, but I'd like to ask what people think of Mienfoo.
I've seen a couple of people who seem to think it discourages versatility or whatever. Yet, if you think about how many counters / checks it has (Misdreavus, Murkrow, Larvesta, Ponyta, Croagunk, Shelmet, Foongus, Vullaby, Slowpoke + quite a few more) I think it could be actually encouraging a bit more diversity. There is so much that you can run to check it that it's never really a massive threat to most teams. Also, the increase in Larvesta and Ponyta with flame body makes spamming U-turn all the more risky.

You have a very interesting opinion and although I don't agree with some of the things that you considered Mienfoo checks, I agree with most of what you're saying. I think what most people don't like about Mienfoo is that it's so good at what it's doing, rarely dies early, hard to lure, and is pretty boring and annoying to play against. It's not really something that you can ban, though.

[Ray Jay]

Originally Posted by Fat Corkscrew

So, yeah what is everyone's opinion on Mienfoo having such high usage? Is it detrimental to the metagame and discourage diversity or does it help to balance the metagame out?

There was a time when Gligar was at obscene usage and I didn't think it was broken. The reasoning behind this was simple: I believed people should use the Pokemon that they feel do their job best. If you ban Gligar on the basis of "it does this job better than something else and I want to try that something else," that's banning on the basis of theorymonning, not actually any visible effects on the metagame. In the end, Gligar did end up becoming imbalanced because it had too wide a variety of sets (each with distinct counters, most of which were easy to take advantage of).

Mienfoo hasn't reached an imbalanced point yet. First off, there's basically no Pokemon you can point to aside from Larvesta and say, "Yup, this is all Mienfoo's doing." A ban on Mienfoo at this point would be a ban that says "Theoretically we think Mienfoo is doing x to the metagame so we are going to ban it to see if it really was doing x to the metagame." That's not OK. Without Suspect testing and an alternate ladder, there is no viable way to point to a Pokemon and say that usage stats are its doing. Even worse is the argument that basically says "I like other Fighting-types / defensive pivots better than Mienfoo and Mienfoo makes them inviable." Banning something so that you can get style points for using an inferior playstyle is not something to be advocated, either.

[Heysup]

Not to mention that doing that with an alternate ladder creates an invalid testing system (which we learned and stopped a while ago). Banning Pokemon should only be based on being broken, and Mienfoo doesn't really do anything so well that no one can feasibly deal with it (or isn't "broken").

[Aerrow]

Now that it's been ~3 weeks since I announced the suspects, I've opened up voting and sent the council PMs outlining the voting process. We should have our results by Monday.

[Aerrow]

I apologize for the lateness of this post; I had to sort out a few issues within the council first --

tl;dr the council has basically agreed with the general LC community; the council thinks that the metagame is balanced at this point in time and does not need any bannings, etc, so LC will remain unchanged for the next month or two!

[Danilo]

This thread has been pretty inactive lately so lets talk. What do you guys think about Mienfoo? Personally, I think it's the best Pokemon in the tier not even close and not using it on your team, unless you're using sand or you have a super legit reason, is foolishness. Thoughts?

[Superpowerdude]

Second that sir! mienfoo has such a good ability in regenerator and can abuse it with a life orb and u-turn! a poke that should never be overlooked when biulding a team but i dont know if banning it is a good idea

[spuds4ever]

While mienfoo is undoubtably good, I think just labelling it "best pokemon in the tier" is going a bit far. While it is definetely the best physical pivot in the tier, there are is a distinct boundary to what each of its sets can and can't do so it's not like gligar was who you could send in on loads of stuff and it will kill something. I've personally deliberately been avoiding using mienfoo in my teams, and while it does require a little more brain-power, it's not difficult to make a good team without it.

One of the best things about the tier at the moment is that so much is viable provided you can give it the support. Among my favourites are probably houndour (who, I guess, isn't that uncommon) and larvitar (who is). Both are really dangerous sweepers with a very distinctive niche but the fact that they are both difficult to use and warrant a lot of support unjustly strips them of usage.