Pokemon Speedrun / Tool-Assisted Speedrun Discussion Thread

**Tobes** · May 3rd, 2012, 2:53:24 PM

First off, let's get this out of the way immediately: Do not discuss the ROMs themselves. This thread is solely for discussion about TASes, the methods used, the game's RNG, route-planning, etc., etc.

A tool-assisted speedrun is a playthrough of a game that aims to beat it as perfectly as possible. They are separate from speed-runs in that speed-runs are attempted in real-time, without any external aid. TAses are not meant to showcase skill (though it does require its own unique form of skill), but are instead meant to show a game beaten as completely as possible.

http://tasvideos.org/1840M.html
This TAS is of Pokemon Blue. There's a catch though: All Pokemon are captured. This TAS displays quite a few glitches (notably Trainer-Fly, aka The Mew Glitch, and Missingno.). The TAS displays an excellent level of RNG abuse and route-planning.

http://tasvideos.org/1828M.html
This one is of Pokemon Ruby, completed as quickly as possible. And boy, will some of the RNG abuse here will make your head spin. The game is solo'ed with a Swellow. Even Steven is beaten with it. The RNG abuse in this run is absolutely absurd.

So, feel free to discuss TAS's and regular speed runs, and share the ones you find entertaining or exceptionally well-made. And please don't turn this into a debate about the lack of merit of TASes or anything like that, I really don't want to see it.

Unbreakable · May 3rd, 2012, 4:35:29 PM

Soloing Steven with a Swellow. Absolutely mind-boggling. (Screencap is of his skarmory biting the dust...I can only imagine RNG abuse was to get something like HP Fire.)

I've taken a whack at speed-running a couple of times. First time, I had no clue what I was doing and actually did the trick house for the extra levels. Still cleared Emerald in a little under 15 hours. Then I wised up, planned a route to some extent, picked the girl and beat Ruby in 8:32:18.

But I knew I could do better. I knew there was room to improve on running Hoenn (I recommend picking the guy because "Brendan" is a lot longer than "May"), so despite having six silver symbols on the emerald and a personal best 33 win streak on the tower (ONE AWAY FROM ANABEL), I restarted recently and managed a 7:22:38 clear. Overleveling Swampert throughout the game and going out of my way to snag the Return TM for coverage was what enabled me to make the final push past Wallace, though I have to say that Wattson and Norman were gigantic pains in the ass due to being underleveled (though the tate&liza fight went a lot smoother than I expected due to Surf's mechanics in gen 3 having it not hit the user's partner). I also had to take pains to avoid battling aroma ladies. :/

And yes, all of this was on my GBA SP with no externals.

thelaytonmobile · May 3rd, 2012, 5:02:54 PM

Pokemon Diamond TAS with tweaking and Kaphotics' Pokemon White TAS with battle RNG manipulation.

Also don't forget the ones on Tasvideos that glitch the game to death and beat it in a minute or so.

Skyshayde · May 3rd, 2012, 5:09:15 PM

I wanted to do one, could never figure out. I suck at rng'ing

**Tobes** · May 5th, 2012, 4:30:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Unbreakable

Soloing Steven with a Swellow. Absolutely mind-boggling. (Screencap is of his skarmory biting the dust...I can only imagine RNG abuse was to get something like HP Fire.)

Swellow did not use Hidden Power. It killed Skarmory with physical moves. Definitely worth watching, especially considering some of the more ridiculous RNG schenanigans (such as maniuplating a 1/1000 King's Rock Pickup from Zigzagoon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat thelaytonmobile

Pokemon Diamond TAS with tweaking and Kaphotics' Pokemon White TAS with battle RNG manipulation.

Also don't forget the ones on Tasvideos that glitch the game to death and beat it in a minute or so.

I quite enjoyed the manipulation of Piplup's Torrent in the Diamond TAS. Things like that are what make watching them worthwile for me.

Layell · May 5th, 2012, 4:41:18 PM

I have always been a fan of speedruns, I have yet to see that many tool assisted ones, and the few speedruns I have seen are interesting but not exactly practical for beating the game as fast as you can (all that luck even without tool assists)

For anyone with five minutes here is an epic speedrun of Pokemon Green

I have also been interested in maybe running Colosseum or XD, has anyone seen any runs of those two games, of all the pokemon games those two are probably the least up to luck and could be very interesting with the 2on2 aspect of the game.

**NixHex** · May 5th, 2012, 4:48:50 PM

I've never done a TAS but from my understanding, they're not supposed to beat the games quickly in real time. The recording features on most emulators don't show where the player repeatedly goes back to the last save state, it just continues where it left off so the end result is a perfect run.

**Tobes** · May 5th, 2012, 5:10:52 PM

That, pretty much. TASes are not meant to be practical. They're meant to show the game pushed to its absolute limits, for the sake of entertainment. The runs are done in pieces, especially when there are difficult-to-manipulate portions.

Really it comes down to:
TAS: "Perfect", but not "Real
and
Speedrun: "Real", but not "Perfect"

Each has their merits and their own drawbacks. I personally enjoy TASes more because I enjoy the tricks that people pull with them that normally can't be performed (see: 0% Metroid Fusion Speedrun, which has a margin of error of roughly 7 frames at one crucial juncture that has prevented anyone from ever pulling off the run in real-time), but Speedruns undoubtedly require more "true" skill. It's sort of a comparison between apples and oranges.

Unbreakable · May 5th, 2012, 5:43:01 PM

Lmao, "takes damage to save time." IMO, that's only applicable to games that have Mercy Invincibility (normally these fall under platformers). Also, haha, that luck manip to make the ralts go down. XD

Tobes, just watched the whole run. Holy shit, getting quick claw to fire that consistently. I know swellow is fast, but he sure as hell ain't THAT fast.

Kaphotics · May 22nd, 2012, 7:10:55 AM

Been awhile since I did anything semi-serious TAS related for B/W; since I only beat the main storyline in my run I still could beat the improved E4.. why not?

I've figured out a little bit more of the move-choosing logic the game uses and its strategy. It always prefers to Fake Out if it has it, then hit you with the highest damage move (usually STAB).
Only when you are low does it try to "finish you off", and the move choice is pretty random. Just one battle took a lot of planning!

gonna keep going at this over the next week; recorded the one battle I've done (probably the most crucial)

battle RNG so stronk

**Glen** · May 22nd, 2012, 8:04:13 AM

that ruby tas was really entertaining, it's just perfect how guts/facade/paralysis/quick claw work together

bearsfan092 · May 22nd, 2012, 9:43:47 PM

Kaph, that drapion ending is amazing.

Death Phenomeno · May 22nd, 2012, 10:40:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Layell

For anyone with five minutes here is an epic speedrun of Pokemon Green

From the very same site: Pokémon Yellow in 0:00

Kaphotics · May 24th, 2012, 10:19:56 AM

just finished planning and a dry-semiTAS of the elite four for when I do record it, and I beat the E4 for a second time I'll have no mistakes. gonna be so much hax considering I'm down 10 levels on them! no class tomorrow so that's when I should upload the remaining part

was fun doing it

final team when entered in Hall of Fame

Kaphotics · May 25th, 2012, 5:21:08 AM

Improved on the segment and finished my TAS so that it would also have a Hall of Fame cleared time. This video goes with the rest of my White TAS, as part 2 -- it only contains the Elite Four clear portion while part 1 contains the main storyline clear (in 181:56)

total time:
199 minutes, 53 seconds ;)

notes

May 3rd, 2012, 2:53:24 PM	#1
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,253 GONER	Pokemon Speedrun / Tool-Assisted Speedrun Discussion Thread First off, let's get this out of the way immediately: Do not discuss the ROMs themselves. This thread is solely for discussion about TASes, the methods used, the game's RNG, route-planning, etc., etc. A tool-assisted speedrun is a playthrough of a game that aims to beat it as perfectly as possible. They are separate from speed-runs in that speed-runs are attempted in real-time, without any external aid. TAses are not meant to showcase skill (though it does require its own unique form of skill), but are instead meant to show a game beaten as completely as possible. http://tasvideos.org/1840M.html This TAS is of Pokemon Blue. There's a catch though: All Pokemon are captured. This TAS displays quite a few glitches (notably Trainer-Fly, aka The Mew Glitch, and Missingno.). The TAS displays an excellent level of RNG abuse and route-planning. http://tasvideos.org/1828M.html This one is of Pokemon Ruby, completed as quickly as possible. And boy, will some of the RNG abuse here will make your head spin. The game is solo'ed with a Swellow. Even Steven is beaten with it. The RNG abuse in this run is absolutely absurd. So, feel free to discuss TAS's and regular speed runs, and share the ones you find entertaining or exceptionally well-made. And please don't turn this into a debate about the lack of merit of TASes or anything like that, I really don't want to see it. __________________ Last edited by Tobes; May 7th, 2012 at 1:53:19 PM.

May 3rd, 2012, 4:35:29 PM	#2
Unbreakable Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 349 A paper bag	Soloing Steven with a Swellow. Absolutely mind-boggling. (Screencap is of his skarmory biting the dust...I can only imagine RNG abuse was to get something like HP Fire.) I've taken a whack at speed-running a couple of times. First time, I had no clue what I was doing and actually did the trick house for the extra levels. Still cleared Emerald in a little under 15 hours. Then I wised up, planned a route to some extent, picked the girl and beat Ruby in 8:32:18. But I knew I could do better. I knew there was room to improve on running Hoenn (I recommend picking the guy because "Brendan" is a lot longer than "May"), so despite having six silver symbols on the emerald and a personal best 33 win streak on the tower (ONE AWAY FROM ANABEL), I restarted recently and managed a 7:22:38 clear. Overleveling Swampert throughout the game and going out of my way to snag the Return TM for coverage was what enabled me to make the final push past Wallace, though I have to say that Wattson and Norman were gigantic pains in the ass due to being underleveled (though the tate&liza fight went a lot smoother than I expected due to Surf's mechanics in gen 3 having it not hit the user's partner). I also had to take pains to avoid battling aroma ladies. :/ And yes, all of this was on my GBA SP with no externals. __________________ But I got wiped out with no saving grace at all! And then I'm told I don't have any talent?! Man...

May 3rd, 2012, 5:02:54 PM	#3
thelaytonmobile Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 208 The UK	Pokemon Diamond TAS with tweaking and Kaphotics' Pokemon White TAS with battle RNG manipulation. Also don't forget the ones on Tasvideos that glitch the game to death and beat it in a minute or so. __________________ My art thread!

May 5th, 2012, 4:41:18 PM	#6
Layell Alas poor player! Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,825 I knew him, Neku, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.	I have always been a fan of speedruns, I have yet to see that many tool assisted ones, and the few speedruns I have seen are interesting but not exactly practical for beating the game as fast as you can (all that luck even without tool assists) For anyone with five minutes here is an epic speedrun of Pokemon Green I have also been interested in maybe running Colosseum or XD, has anyone seen any runs of those two games, of all the pokemon games those two are probably the least up to luck and could be very interesting with the 2on2 aspect of the game. __________________ #Orangeislands movie nights: The best way to watch the Pokemon films and specials! * Moderator on smogon's minecraft server * Goodnight Sweet Prince PS/Smogon April Fools 2013: file, credits, and server mode

May 5th, 2012, 5:10:52 PM	#8
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,253 GONER	That, pretty much. TASes are not meant to be practical. They're meant to show the game pushed to its absolute limits, for the sake of entertainment. The runs are done in pieces, especially when there are difficult-to-manipulate portions. Really it comes down to: TAS: "Perfect", but not "Real and Speedrun: "Real", but not "Perfect" Each has their merits and their own drawbacks. I personally enjoy TASes more because I enjoy the tricks that people pull with them that normally can't be performed (see: 0% Metroid Fusion Speedrun, which has a margin of error of roughly 7 frames at one crucial juncture that has prevented anyone from ever pulling off the run in real-time), but Speedruns undoubtedly require more "true" skill. It's sort of a comparison between apples and oranges. __________________

May 3rd, 2012, 5:09:15 PM	#4
Skyshayde Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 364 On Earth	I wanted to do one, could never figure out. I suck at rng'ing

May 5th, 2012, 5:43:01 PM	#9
Unbreakable Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 349 A paper bag	Lmao, "takes damage to save time." IMO, that's only applicable to games that have Mercy Invincibility (normally these fall under platformers). Also, haha, that luck manip to make the ralts go down. XD Tobes, just watched the whole run. Holy shit, getting quick claw to fire that consistently. I know swellow is fast, but he sure as hell ain't THAT fast. __________________ But I got wiped out with no saving grace at all! And then I'm told I don't have any talent?! Man... Last edited by Unbreakable; May 5th, 2012 at 9:42:44 PM.

May 22nd, 2012, 7:10:55 AM	#10
Kaphotics Remodeling Kitchens Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 758 Berkeley, CA	Been awhile since I did anything semi-serious TAS related for B/W; since I only beat the main storyline in my run I still could beat the improved E4.. why not? I've figured out a little bit more of the move-choosing logic the game uses and its strategy. It always prefers to Fake Out if it has it, then hit you with the highest damage move (usually STAB). Only when you are low does it try to "finish you off", and the move choice is pretty random. Just one battle took a lot of planning! gonna keep going at this over the next week; recorded the one battle I've done (probably the most crucial) battle RNG so stronk

May 22nd, 2012, 8:04:13 AM	#11
Glen Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,492	that ruby tas was really entertaining, it's just perfect how guts/facade/paralysis/quick claw work together __________________ nothing about the source or the end

May 22nd, 2012, 9:43:47 PM	#12
bearsfan092 Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,048 Yoomtah!	Kaph, that drapion ending is amazing. __________________ Black FC: 3954 7943 2104 Diamond FC: 1590 6595 3602 RNG Abuse Tutorial Videos and Wifi Battle Videos-Now with revamped videos for current software Say what? Bears has a trade thread again?

May 24th, 2012, 10:19:56 AM	#14
Kaphotics Remodeling Kitchens Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 758 Berkeley, CA	just finished planning and a dry-semiTAS of the elite four for when I do record it, and I beat the E4 for a second time I'll have no mistakes. gonna be so much hax considering I'm down 10 levels on them! no class tomorrow so that's when I should upload the remaining part was fun doing it final team when entered in Hall of Fame got 3:34 as the total to HoF time on this dry run, with TAS it'll probably be around 3:32 edit: I let the game idle a lot so the final time ended up being 3:19:53 when I did it with precision Last edited by Kaphotics; May 25th, 2012 at 5:22:24 AM.

May 25th, 2012, 5:21:08 AM	#15
Kaphotics Remodeling Kitchens Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 758 Berkeley, CA	Improved on the segment and finished my TAS so that it would also have a Hall of Fame cleared time. This video goes with the rest of my White TAS, as part 2 -- it only contains the Elite Four clear portion while part 1 contains the main storyline clear (in 181:56) total time: 199 minutes, 53 seconds ;) notes The E4 is the hardest AI you will face. If they can't KO you, they will either try to do the most damage or try to status you if they don't have a good attacking pool. By taking damage to trigger the AI into thinking it can finish you off (it chooses any move that can do so) the outcome can be manipulated by them missing their killing blows! For priority users (mach & bullet punch), HP had to be high enough such that the priority move would not KO, but another move could. When the game saves it is taken a little bit after the HoF entry, so I found the appropriate memory positions to help deduce what time I was entered in the machine at (I assumed it was when my trainer sprite appeared. It could be the moment the overworld faded out; I just didn't know when to say "ok i'm in").