CAP 3 - Part 5 - Stat Limits

[capefeather]

I'm not quite sure of why a defensive CAP 3 would be much better served as a physical attacker than as a special attacker. As a defensive Pokémon, it's already benefiting from not suffering from the HP leak from a burn. The Attack drop prevention is cool but I don't think it's all that substantial, again assuming a defensive CAP 3 for the sake of argument. For a specially offensive defensive CAP 3, however, Fire has the advantage of having a reasonably accurate, no-recoil 120 base power STAB, as well as an 80 base power STAB that can burn rather easily, both of which many other types do not have, and only Water comes close to having together. The former is a very concrete advantage that other types would need much higher stats to pull off.

As a side remark to srk, yes, our concept is typing makeover. It's not Break the Mold.

[SunnyE]

I'd just like to mention that people are saying "skarmory levels" are way too high, but Torkoal has them and is still NU and completely terrified of most Physical Threats because they get EdgeQuake..

[CressOfLight]

Originally Posted by Fat SunnyE

I'd just like to mention that people are saying "skarmory levels" are way too high, but Torkoal has them and is still NU and completely terrified of most Physical Threats because they get EdgeQuake..

Thats a good point, the best reason why that is is because skarmory has both less weaknesses and more resistances which is something the new poison/fire pokemon could be like torkoal but with some bonuses such as better stats or usefull ability besides it having high physicle bulk.


If it could be a floating type pokemon such as a larva lamp or something like that with levitate ability could save it from spikes and EQ attacks while still taking 25% damage from stealthrocks

[spuds4ever]

I'm going to join the "no need for PT" bandwagon here. As said, looking at its checklist, PT is really not necessary. It's not even as if it has any useful commonly physical resistances bar fighting.

I'm indecisive about what form of offense we should approach. As bugmaniacbob said, we can improvise on the fire stab by giving it something like blaze kick or heat crash. Poison is pretty difficult on either side. I guess gunk shot could be viable if it got something like coil.

Adding another pure special sweeper would make it pretty dreary seeing how many special sun sweepers there are. Perhaps inclined to a mix set with a physical incline.

[MCBarrett]

Originally Posted by Fat spuds4ever

I'm going to join the "no need for PT" bandwagon here. As said, looking at its checklist, PT is really not necessary.

i'm going to disagree with this on a couple of points.

First, as sunnye pointed out, giving pt to this cap wont make it wall its weaknesses at all so its not like we're giving it some sort of unfair advantage or undermining the threats already listed.

Secondly, not giving cap3 good pt will add to the amount of pokemon that would be on its threat list. one example would be gyarados. most people would think that gyarados would be walled by cap3 because its a water type but if we gave it poor pt then it would be easily taken out and wouldnt be able to hit back for any significant damage. and thats not the only example. not giving cap3 sufficient pt would be worse than giving it very good pt as it would stretch the threat list even further.

i'm not saying the pt should be huge though, i think that we should still lean it towards st

[TheStarRapper]

I have actually heard good arguments for PT (standing up to Nite in certain scenarios, the torkoal argument) and ST (taking Rotom's Volt Switches like it ain't no thing). Instead of disagreeing about which one we want...

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*Enter exuberant cheering from both Deck and Capefeather.
If the CAP theme is saving a mon from its typing using movepool, ability or stats, then I see no reason it can't be bulky in both.

[Deck Knight]

I don't actually think a mixed attacker would be completely out of line simply because of Poison-type support. Coil and Acid Spray are incredibly undervalued moves, and what I really want to get at is how we should be taking hits, and exactly what CAP 3 is doing once it switches in.

Consider that we're using CAP 3 in Rain. This means it might as well not have Fire STAB with the obvious exception of nuking Ferrothorn and Scizor. For everything else, Poison STAB becomes a lot more practical, so for me it becomes a matter of playstyle. Once CAP3 Switches into a water type, what does it do?

In my mind, Coil or Acid Spray to set itself up a threat. With its Fire STAB reduced its best offensive option is Poison attacks (which is part of the concept), so it should be able to utilize those tools effectively. The fact Coil would also patch up Fire Blast (or perhaps Focus Blast?)'s accuracy is also beneficial. On the special side, Acid Spray's -2 SpD brings Fire Blast back into relevance, at least for what it'd be up against.

Granted that neither of these moves are guaranteed to be on CAP 3, however I'm trying to think up how a battle scenario would go. We switch CAP 3 into Politoed, which for the sake of argument is not doing something odd like running HP Ground. Then what? Presumably we have enough offense where Sludge Wave or Poison Jab or whatever does enough to scare it out, or else we use something like Acid Spray and dare defensive variants to try Encore.

Incidentally for a BSR Limit, I'm thinking 332. It's slightly less than Arcanine and Volcarona (around 335 each). Gyarados' rating doesn't really account for Intimidate, and I think Dry Skin isn't quite as good as a reduction in all physical attacks on switchin.

Overall I'm still inclined to allow more defensive spreads. Currently I'm thinking:

PT: 185
ST: 190
SS: 185
PS: 160

BSR: 332

[Temperantia]

I'm very glad Deck mentioned Coil, as that remains my main reason for supporting a high PS.

On the PT vs ST debate, I believe CAP3 should have above average PT and excellent ST (about 130 and 180, respectively?)
My reasons for this are nothing that hasn't been said before. CAP3 should be shutting down those whose STABs it resists. This includes Scizor and Ferrothorn in addition to the numerous Grass, Water and Fire types floating around. In this way, it'd be a better return for stat investment in ST, with just enough PT to allow it to switch in on resisted moves with no significant problems.

[CressOfLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

I don't actually think a mixed attacker would be completely out of line simply because of Poison-type support. Coil and Acid Spray are incredibly undervalued moves, and what I really want to get at is how we should be taking hits, and exactly what CAP 3 is doing once it switches in.

Consider that we're using CAP 3 in Rain. This means it might as well not have Fire STAB with the obvious exception of nuking Ferrothorn and Scizor. For everything else, Poison STAB becomes a lot more practical, so for me it becomes a matter of playstyle. Once CAP3 Switches into a water type, what does it do?

In my mind, Coil or Acid Spray to set itself up a threat. With its Fire STAB reduced its best offensive option is Poison attacks (which is part of the concept), so it should be able to utilize those tools effectively. The fact Coil would also patch up Fire Blast (or perhaps Focus Blast?)'s accuracy is also beneficial. On the special side, Acid Spray's -2 SpD brings Fire Blast back into relevance, at least for what it'd be up against.

Granted that neither of these moves are guaranteed to be on CAP 3, however I'm trying to think up how a battle scenario would go. We switch CAP 3 into Politoed, which for the sake of argument is not doing something odd like running HP Ground. Then what? Presumably we have enough offense where Sludge Wave or Poison Jab or whatever does enough to scare it out, or else we use something like Acid Spray and dare defensive variants to try Encore.

Incidentally for a BSR Limit, I'm thinking 332. It's slightly less than Arcanine and Volcarona (around 335 each). Gyarados' rating doesn't really account for Intimidate, and I think Dry Skin isn't quite as good as a reduction in all physical attacks on switchin.

Overall I'm still inclined to allow more defensive spreads. Currently I'm thinking:

PT: 185
ST: 190
SS: 185
PS: 160

BSR: 332

Since most poison types can learn giga drain, that could be good option as a suggestion to be good help against politoed and other water types who doesnt have more than 300 sp attack.

With combination of item recovery, dry skin and drain attack that could not only recover when switching in taking damage from SR or spikes but also recover from politoeds water attack.

[fourkings8414]

With regards to offense, wouldn't it be better to just allow it to become an offensive threat after it has finished setting up? Having a high initial base stat for offense is unnecessary for such a bulky mon, in my opinion, so forcing it to raise its stats if it wanted to wreck teams would seem more realistic. For example, Gastrodon can't do much without damage without rain support or a SpAtk boost, but once it has it, it can potentially do a lot of damage. I can imagine CAP doing the same taking advantage of its resistances in tandem with its bulkiness to force switches while it sets up with a boosting move or something. More to this later.

I do see a problem in this proposal, however. It is likely that once CAP has finished boosting that the pokemon coming in from the switch is a counter that it will not want to stay in for. I guess here we focus on mainly providing support rather than attacking. Passing burns and toxic would be helpful for the team. I do see people advocating for a strong hit right off the bat to at least have some sort of presence instead of just set up bait. This is assuming we are taking the bulky route as everyone else has.

I think burn needs to be addressed a bit more seriously to determine how high its PT should be. The problem with burn is simply getting the other burned. As said before, WoW is not very reliable, Lava Plume or Scald can damage but if you're focusing on getting the opposition burned, they're less reliable in a sense.

With this, I have the following spread. It is less overwhelming than DK's values I believe. Explanation inside.

PT: 170
ST: 190
PS: 110
SS: 150

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I have already explained why I think low sweepiness if necessary above. Mediocre stats are all that is necessary assuming we have high BP moves to boot.

I have an obvious bias towards SS. Most of the moves in this category are more useful than the physical side. However, many boost up moves are better than those for the special side like Coil, Dragon Dance, Claw Sharpen (for accuracy mainly). Sure we have Quiver Dance and Tail Glow, but do we really want those for this mon? Do we even want this pokemon to be a bulky attacker? We should really define what kind of role this moon should have first. Anyways, I really want to reconsider PS but I've yet to be persuaded.

I suggest a hefty investment in PT in order to take at least one hit from physical dragons, among other things, in order to burn them. As mentioned in the threats discussion, physical counters should threaten us but at a cost. If we are slower, at least let us survive a hit to have a chance to status the opponent. This is a totally different case when we start looking at SE hits where we should just try to get them on the switch, not during some revenge process. I considered this a bit when reading jas' post.

fire means burn access, and burn plus high physical defense means that we are no longer beaten by physical threats. I don't care if they hit super effectively, you beat them. You and srk speak of skarmory level Defense. With those defenses, the mighty CB Terriakion fails to OHKO with Stone Edge without Stealth Rocks. And then you burn it. Suddenly, it can no longer switch into you cause if you burn it it doesn't counter you anymore.

Let me just note that a burn is a 50% drop in ATK. A SE will still basically hit us for at least neutral damage. I think we'll still take a hefty amount, though it will be enough to want to avoid such damage. However, its team mates can now take care of these threats much easier now. I am trying to readjust the PT to compensate for this while also being able to stand a neutral physical hit or two.

ST is the highest value here mainly so we can take as little damage possible from resisted moves to make up for the SR weakness. Again, the resistances this mon has are usually special oriented.

Don't forget a stat limit discussion means that we are also discussing the potential play style that CAP will be taking (I may be wrong about this assertion). As much as I would like it, a speedy tank would be awesome, but I think the focus on being just bulky would help it support its team more.

[remetagross]

I agree with everyone advocating some PT because let's remember this CAP is supposed to be a good Scizor counter, we don't want it to be destroyed by a +2 Superpower.

[Imanalt]

because my computer hasnt been working, im a bit late, but i just want to point out to people saying "it already has a lot of useful special resistances, it doesnt need ST" that one of the reasons skarmory is very good is because it both has very good PT and a very good physically defensive typing. Also, i feel that we should limit the attacking stats at the same, and not force it into being physically or specially biased, as there are some decent arguments for both sides.

[capefeather]

This thread is slowing down and Deck Knight hasn't posted in almost 26 hours. I'm pretty sure the next time he posts will be a 24-hour warning, and only one post has proposed a real adjustment to the limits relative to Deck Knight's last post. So I'm giving the thread 24 hours before it closes, though Deck Knight can nullify this warning.

Also I will reply to the post I was talking about:

CAP 3 is going to have access to a high base power STAB. That's the thing, though. It's going to have one reliable (so not Gunk Shot) high base power STAB type, whether we go physical or special. On top of that, if we go special, there aren't very many coverage moves available that go at or above 100 base power (i.e. Thunder, Hurricane, Hydro Pump, and a couple I might have forgotten). I'm actually a bit worried about CAP 3's ability to handle anything that resists Fire without a solid general offensive presence. 150 SS is doable on a submission, I suppose, but it seems low for a hard limit.

Remember that there is also going to be an overall BSR limit. I doubt that any submission is going to be able to ride every limit in Deck Knight's post right now without exceeding the stated BSR limit.

[Deck Knight]

Capefeathers time limit is in effect, I think the individual limits, while high overall, are tempered by the Overal BSR Limit. BW OU has so many ridiculously powerful threats that I'm sure people will be able to satisfy what they think the spread should do.

I should note that yes, as capefeather said, the only High-Power accurate STAB we have is Fire, and since we've selected Dry Skin we know that particular STAB will be inhibited, so we actually do need some play room around the raw offensive potential of CAP 3.

[capefeather]

Hear ye, hear ye! The intergalactic jester proclaims this conformity factory closed!