CAP 3 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Project_Mars]

@sonicthehedgedawg: well, there's really two choices, but if I had to pick the other status to block it would be sleep. It already has a lower speed stat than a lot of good OU mons, so the speed drop won't change a ton for it.

I am still wondering why Cloud Nine hadn't been discussed. I think CAP3's typing would make it interestingly competent with it, as it's typing lets it blast hail and stymie sun. (incidentally, CAP3 is faster than most chloraphyll users out of sun) It hates sand in the first place, and would hate rain, but choice scarf + HP Grass would probably clean up, since cloud nine would remove any potential swift swim boost. And let's keep in mind that it is resilient to a few common forms of passive damage, removing one entirely when it switches in, meaning that with Cloud Nine it would be fairly sturdy, thanks to an immunity to sand and hail damage. I think Cloud Nine is a valid choice.

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

We wouldn't be undoing anything by picking Drought. Again, the only thing decided in the first ability polls was that Dry Skin should be one of the abilities. Only one could win that poll, and the fact that both were in the poll doesn't mean that having both abilities is somehow against the wishes of the populace (which the second ability polls would decide).

The reason that I can't agree with this is because we move on to further parts of the process directly after the selection of what is called the primary ability. If we took care of all of the abilities first (or at least until we decided no more competitively relevant abilities) and then moved on to stats, that would be different. The fact of the matter is, though, that we had a discussion about stat limits and then voted on a stat spread all with only one ability, Dry Skin, in mind. Indeed, to go through those parts of the process with any further abilities in mind would unquestionably be poll-jumping. If we want CAPs in the future to have a chance a multiple competitively relevant abilities like this, then it needs to get taken care of before we more on to other parts of the process, because at this point, the process dictates that it's too late to go back and revise the stats based on the presence of a new competitively relevant ability. This is a process issue.

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

I would just like to post that shadow tag at least, and probably Arena trap too, runs a very large risk of being overpowered. Chandelure with ST absolutely shreds dw ou stall, and with toxic immunity and lack of a pursuit weakness, CAP 3 would likely be even better at trapping and killing. If we were going to go with shadow tag we would have needed much less raw power IMO.

probably true. I digress.

but it is one of the few things I could think of to actually make the poison/fire typing a BOON rather than a detriment.

Originally Posted by Fat Quilph

As far as I'm concerned, Dry Skin has done everything we could ask for concerning the concept, and for that reason I will push for No Secondary Ability at all. The main reason I feel this way is because everyone here instantly assumes that we are obligated--nay, required--to give every single CAP as many abilities as possible, when this is entirely not the case. There are plenty of Pokemon that don't have a secondary ability. When did it become standard procedure to forget this? I suppose I would be willing to give it a DW ability of some sort, but that's a discussion for another day. For now, I'd at least like to have the option of selecting no ability at all.

You know, you can always go somewhere in between: Usable but non-ideal

Originally Posted by Fat Project_Mars

I am still wondering why Cloud Nine hadn't been discussed.

Why WOULD it be?
As a fire type, it's going to have a hell of a powerful fire STAB in the sun, and as a dry skin posessor, it's going to heal itself in the rain..... cloud nine would be inferior to Dry skin in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY with the exception of, possibly, a sandstorm team..... but even in that case, I'd rather be able to switch in on water attacks for free health than I would stop a sandstorm.

[MeNowDealWithIt]

you're all going to call me crazy for this, but I have to:

zen mode

It accomplishes many things
1. allows for more than one art choice in that poll
2. could change our typing to something that includes ice for the original idea in the typing poll
3. makes it more defensive which is also good for the original idea in the typing poll
4. gives us a reason to use it on sun teams
5. still has immunities to two status conditions
6. gives more than one pokemon with that ability
7. lets you use it in the sun
8. makes it unique among all of the other CaPs
9. gives a reason to use it over heatran
10. is a competitive and flavor ability at the same time!

the more I wrote in that list, the more confident I felt that it would be a good ability

[Redjar]

Originally Posted by Fat MeNowDealWithIt

you're all going to call me crazy for this, but I have to:

zen mode

It accomplishes many things
1. allows for more than one art choice in that poll
2. could change our typing to something that includes ice for the original idea in the typing poll
3. makes it more defensive which is also good for the original idea in the typing poll
4. gives us a reason to use it on sun teams
5. still has immunities to two status conditions
6. gives more than one pokemon with that ability
7. lets you use it in the sun
8. makes it unique among all of the other CaPs
9. gives a reason to use it over heatran
10. is a competitive and flavor ability at the same time!

the more I wrote in that list, the more confident I felt that it would be a good ability

1. Why is that relevant?
2. That's not the typing we chose, why go back on a decision we already made?
3. How does this make us more defensive?
4. Drought makes it useful on sun teams ( ridiculously so) as do other abilities
5. So does any other ability
6. Point is? Why does this matter?
7. Other abilities do this, support this reason more.
8. It already has unique typing and stats...
9. Defend
10. No...

[capefeather]

Uh, forgive me if I don't understand what you disagree with, Asylum. All I'm saying is that people who say we rejected Drought are assuming too much. I don't see how that's wrong. We don't "undo" any decision by picking Drought, any more than we undo anything in Step X by picking (in general) something in Step Y > X. (For example, we don't "undo" the intent of the stat spread by picking a movepool containing moves that the stat spread wasn't explicitly designed for.)

I get that you don't like that abilities are after stats in the typical CAP process, but that's an issue for another time and I think it's an exaggeration to suggest that doing it in this order is as disastrous as you imply. Everything in this process so far could have happened with all the other CAPs done under the current process order, and the part about multiple abilities has obviously happened.

[forestflamerunner]

I feel like drought would somewhat overpower CAP 3. The original idea was to make CAP used because of its typing. If glalie had gotten drought instead of ninetales, I bet that glalie would have still seen serious ou usage just because drought makes most Pokémon support juggernauts. CAP 3 would undoubtedly appreciate the sun, but so would vulpix and magmar. Anything that resists fire attacks and packs one of its own would benefit from sun.

By giving drought to CAP 3 the focus will probably shift away from the typing. no one would use CAP 3 on sun teams because of its typing, they would use it on sun teams because of the ability with a complete apathy to CAP’s typing. true it would have to beat ninetales for the job, but that isn’t exactly a challenge though. Almost every sun team would pack CAP 3 as long as we don’t completely fuck up the movepool because it can set up sun and because it is so much better than ninetales. There would be no other reason. There may be other incentives to use the CAP in sun, but those incentives would not drive the choice.

On a different note, I don’t understand why people haven’t discussed harvest as a possible ability for CAP 3. It gives us a reason to use CAP 3 in the sun without forcing our hand, it complements the typing and spread by giving it a way to stall to kingdom come, and is a completely unexplored ability. We could learn so much from it. Can someone please explain to me why no people have no opinion on harvest as a potential ability for CAP 3?

[Theorymon]

There are a few abilities I find interesting... but I strongly think that Drought is by far the best choice we could possibly make, because choosing Drought will help us learn more about Pokemon than any ability for this cap!

I'd like to focus on the bonus questions. These are the kind of questions I've been thinking about if this Pokemon has both Dry Skin and Drought, and are a major reason why I think there is simply no better choice for a 2nd ability on this CAP than drought!

Would a weather Pokemon with a good alternate ability or two use it? How often would they use it?

A lot of arguments against Drought are that it'd totally outclass Dry Skin, but I don't think that's something that can be answered without a test! Sure, Drought is an AMAZING support ability, but Dry Skin is also the superior ability for Sand and Rain teams! Think of the playtest ladder is being a test for sun: Is sun such an amazing weather that this Pokemon will simply become Ninetails but good, or are Rain and Sand so good that this Pokemon is often seen on these teams with Dry Skin? I'd also like to note that if we give this Pokemon a third competitive ability (something like arena trap, magnet pull, or sheer force is what I have in mind), we could further test the merits of Drought here! FINALLY, something big to note here is that there isn't any other weather Pokemon with a good alternate ability, so either way, we'll learn whats more valuable, setting up the weather, or dealing with the weather!

How will Drought and Dry Skin effect the weather wars? Will a Pokemon with Drought that doesn't suck like Ninetails make Drought by far the most common weather, or will the drawbacks of this Pokemon's typing ensure that Rain and Sand are still dominant, forcing CAP 3 to use Dry Skin more often?

Like I mentioned before, in OU, there isn't a weather Pokemon that'll use an alternate ability. And unlike Ubers, the setters up of Rain and Sun are pretty terrible on their own! Sun is also fairly uncommon when compared to Rain and Sand as far as I know, and that's partly because Ninetails sucks, and also because there simply aren't as many good sun abusers as there are rain abusers. With a Pokemon that FINALLY has drought and doesnt suck, we are obviously making Sun more viable. But the question is, how will Sand and Rain teams react? Will we start seeing stuff like Hidden Power Ground Politoed and Psychic Starmie, or will a good Pokemon with Drought not really change the structure of weather teams, or will Sun and Rain usage take a hit because Sun ends up being far better than we expect? Dry Skin is obviously going to be both a blessing and a curse vs Rain teams as well, so if we give this Pokemon both Drought AND Dry Skin, I'm curious to see if Rain teams are forced to radically change their structure in response to two big new threats!

With two such amazing abilities, will Pokemon change their movesets to hit this CAP?

More of an expansion of the last question, but when you give a Pokemon Drought and Dry Skin, KOing it before it causes any trouble is obviously pretty important! I'm really curious how this will change Pokemon's movesets, will we start seeing stuff like Bulldoze Ferrothorn, or will stuff like Dugtrio simply become more common?

Now before I end this post, I want to say that I think Drought fits this concept just fine. Drought obviously makes up for several of the Fire type's flaws, and we can always limit coverage to the point where it still has a reason to use Poison moves! Overall, I think that the potential knowledge about weather wars and metagame reactions to typing make having both Drought and Dry Skin on the same Pokemon far too valuable to pass up!

[Deck Knight]

Glad I got called away to dinner.

In any case the discussion here has been intense, but a lot of the back and forth is repetitive, with each camp making its case over and over. I think Drought is competitive with Dry Skin, Concept-relevant, and not overpowering, which means I am going to slate it.

I think Regenerator while not as powerful as either is still quite capable of being a powerful and defining ability with some support, so I will also be slating that. Otherwise I think the slew of other proposed abilities lack either the comparable power and the type focus we need on CAP 3.

Finally, I think No Competitive Ability should be slated because there are clear differences in vision from the pro-Drought and anti-Drought factions, and I'll leave it to the voters to decide what that other vision should consist of.

Thus the slate for the next poll shall be:

Drought
Regenerator
No Competitive Ability

Thank you all for this great discussion, it will be interesting to see how this pans out. Please note however that the time to make a case is over, and I will have the mod staff crack down vigorously on attempts to re-fight the arguments in this thread in the voting thread. You have been warned.