The ladders have been reset. Here's why.

[Antar*]

This morning, I went onto the server and reset the ladders for every tier except Dream World OU, which will be reset after the 25th, when they make some suspect council decisions.

This was not an act which I took on a whim.

It has been brought to my attention that top users on several ladders have been engaging routinely in what I can only describe as "anti-competitive" behavior. There have been a few instances of outright cheating, but mostly it's been instances of users helping their friends ladder by forfeiting against them, just to award them more ladder points.

This is not acceptable.

Smogon is a competitive Pokemon site. What draws users to our PO server over other more populated alternatives is at least partially the quality of our ladder, that we have a reputation for having the best battlers.

Anti-competetive behavior and cronyism diminishes that in a real way and will NOT be tolerated.

While it is true that, before yesterday, there was nothing in the rules to forbid this sort of behavior, it really should have gone without saying. Still, it is my determination that it is unfair to punish a select few prominent individuals for something that is really a systemic problem.

So instead, I have decided to wipe the slate clean and give EVERYONE a fresh start.

Please read the revised rules. Feel free to post below if you have any questions.

[da hui]

What will happen to the 1337 stats?

[Fatecrashers]

1337 stats will be missing this month thanks to the cheaters

[tehy]

As a smogon ladderer, i have two quick questions.

Firstly, how will you catch these people? Just wondering.

Secondly, if i see one of the people that purposely try to get lowest ranking and forfeit on them to screw them over, will that possibly be grounds for a ban or similar?

Thirdly, if i win a match and i feel it was done by too much luck going my way and i forfeit because the other player cares about ranking, will that be grounds for ban or similar?

[RBG*]

Logs of every battle are saved, so if there is word that a user might be cheating, their logs can be checked.

And the other two cases you listed I would presume are not ban worthy.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

Firstly, how will you catch these people? Just wondering.

All battles on our server are logged. I have a script that pulls the logs of all the battles of a user for the past so-many days and puts them in a folder where our staff can look them over.

Secondly, if i see one of the people that purposely try to get lowest ranking and forfeit on them to screw them over, will that possibly be grounds for a ban or similar?

Phew... That's a tough one. Certainly, the race-to-the-bottom people won't be breaking any rules for indiscriminately forfeiting (if they forfeited only against select users, that would be a different issue). But what your describing involves actually targeting specific users. Basically, I'm thinking yes, that is a violation of our rules, because you are attempting to artificially inflate the ranking of a specific user. However, I probably wouldn't ban you for it on first offense.

Thirdly, if i win a match and i feel it was done by too much luck going my way and i forfeit because the other player cares about ranking, will that be grounds for ban or similar?

In that instance, you may suggest draw. Luck is part of the game--people need to deal with it, and giving someone a WIN when they've clearly lost (for whatever reason) is ABSOLUTELY not allowed.

[Joeyboy]

Down with cheaters, good on you Antar! We're all behind you

[TropiOUs]

I was so close to getting 0 on OU ladder ;_;.

Can I still race to the bottom as long I just hit forfeit and don't ask in chat/pm for someone that is low enough to get me there faster?. Sure first few games I am giving away free points, but once I get to the 500s range that takes about 30 games that would hardly be an issue.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

Can I still race to the bottom as long I just hit forfeit and don't ask in chat/pm for someone that is low enough to get me there faster?. Sure first few games I am giving away free points, but once I get to the 500s range that takes about 30 games that would hardly be an issue.

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

Certainly, the race-to-the-bottom people won't be breaking any rules for indiscriminately forfeiting (if they forfeited only against select users, that would be a different issue)

[TropiOUs]

Cool, thanks for clearing that.

[Finchinator]

Stop calling them cheaters, they didn't know of this rule and they shouldn;t be blamed because it never clearly stated this. Also, reseting the ladder screws over those who didn't, "CHEAT." THe word cheat is offensive to those who did it now knowing it was cheating and should be replaced with something like those who misunderstood. Otherwise, gl to everyone on the new ladder!!

[IbanezObsession]

Hopefully nobody's stupid enough to cheat like that again because I prefer Smogon's server because of the higher-class battlers. I don't want Smogon to lose its image either.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Finchinator

Stop calling them cheaters, they didn't know of this rule and they shouldn;t be blamed because it never clearly stated this. Also, reseting the ladder screws over those who didn't, "CHEAT." THe word cheat is offensive to those who did it now knowing it was cheating and should be replaced with something like those who misunderstood. Otherwise, gl to everyone on the new ladder!!

I chose to use the term "anti-competitive behavior" for what you and many other users engaged in, but in any actual sport, that behavior would indeed be called "match fixing" and would classify as cheating.


Everyone who's upset about this ladder reset need to remember something: it has historically been our practice to regularly reset the ladders. Every time a suspect round ends, the ladder for that tier *should* be reset. The fact that nothing new has happened to OU in a while is the only reason the ladder has stayed the way it is.

Periodic resets are good for keeping things fresh and to make sure the ladders accurately assess skill in the CURRENT metagame (decay helps us with this a little, but there are problems with the formula I'd rather not go into). Even if I hadn't done the reset today, I would have probably done it in about a month or two when we were ready to roll out the BW2 changes.

Bottom line: please stop acting like a ladder reset is the end of the world.

[Fatecrashers]

lol finchinator sooo mad

also i dont recall people getting so butthurt after we reset the ladder after suspect testing rounds

[blarajan]

"Hey bro you won this match but forfeit for me cause my PO rank is so high" How is that not cheating the ladder?

"Rules are subject to moderator interpretation"

Why does "DON'T CHEAT" have to be explicit for you not to cheat???????

[BulbaSword]

Good catch Antar I don't mind losing my high spot on the ladder if it means stopping something that's ruining the ladder. It's just too bad that a few people had to ruin it for everybody.

[StallMandibuzz]

Originally Posted by Fat blarajan

"Hey bro you won this match but forfeit for me cause my PO rank is so high" How is that not cheating the ladder?

"Rules are subject to moderator interpretation"

Why does "DON'T CHEAT" have to be explicit for you not to cheat???????

Because people are dumb-asses, and they need to have the rules blatantly bolded out in front of them. Most of the time, they'll cheat regardless whether or not rules are placed for it. :| Honestly, I wouldn't forfeit a winning game so some fool can have a high PO ranking. -_- I wouldn't forfeit period, unless I had to for RL reasons and such. :/ Good catch, Antar. I need to start laddering again, hopefully I know what I'm doing. :o

[Chou Toshio]

In any case, everyone should remember rule 1 of Smogon Server moderation:

The mods are the rules, and common sense is rule #1. Anyone who thought it was okay to do this kind of thing, is clearly a dumb ass, or kidding themselves. This is really just a normal continuation of the "we reserve the right to take what course of action is needed, based on our judgement-- it's all about OUR judgement" that has always been the heart of Smogon server management.

[NixHex]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we can't fix matches on a pocket monsters ladder so it's not the cheaters' fault.

[Razza]

2 scenarios

1) I battle someone who care about their ladder ranking very much and at the end after it is clear I have won THEY ask me for a draw and I accept is this against the rules?

2) I battle someone (with a high ranking) and I have it won and then I offer them a draw without them suggesting it to me, so I would be undertaking this action without any explicit encouragement from them. If we draw is this against the rules?

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Razza

1) I battle someone who care about their ladder ranking very much and at the end after it is clear I have won THEY ask me for a draw and I accept is this against the rules?

Yes.

2) I battle someone (with a high ranking) and I have it won and then I offer them a draw without them suggesting it to me, so I would be undertaking this action without any explicit encouragement from them. If we draw is this against the rules?

Yes.

Exceptions in both circumstances for cases of, say, game-changing hax/misclicks/etc.

[Pwnemon]

i forfeit often because i'm in the middle of a winning match and then suddenly MOM.

how do you plan to distinguish people with bitchy parents apart from people who cheat?

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

i forfeit often because i'm in the middle of a winning match and then suddenly MOM.

how do you plan to distinguish people with bitchy parents apart from people who cheat?

Do you only forfeit against certain people? Do people ask you to forfeit? That's the distinction, and it's usually pretty easy to tell from the logs.

In any instance of suspected cheating, the policy will be to ban first and only ladder-reset after the user has had a chance to defend his or herself with a ban appeal.

[Groombridge]

This reset has really cleared something up for me: I didn't realise there were race-to-the-bottom players until now. Every so often I'd run into one - someone who would immediately forfeit, before we'd even chosen leads. I'd assumed it was intruding parents or whatever (unless they were terrified of my mighty team, aha ha ha), so that was good to find out.


As for the reset, if it shakes out the users who are gaming the system, then good. Players with high ratings will have to regain them, but I guess if you're good you don't get a high rating by accident. After a few days everything will be back to normal.

[Metal Bagon]

I like the reset ladders, got to #4 in the ubers ladder after 4 won matches :)

Good call though antar, I didn't realize this was happening but now that I know that it has I think that's just wrong.