Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[Chinese Dood]

Haha. I recently (well sort of recently) RNG'd a Tornadus too... mainly because I wanted to RNG a Landorus. Except my Tornadus was Special attacking with HP Water (which turned out to be a bit underwhelming even under rain, but o well... moveset was Protect / Rain Dance / Hurricane / HP Water).

I was slowly scrolling down this page and skimming over your team, and then I saw Gyarados and was like "Oh! Hm, interesting"... as in, I thought it might not fit that well lol. From my experience with Gyarados... it's not an "amazing" pokemon. I don't know. Gyarados seems sort of "outdated" sometimes to me now. Like, in previous Gens, it was very good. Then it got a bit worse and worse as more pokemon got better attacking stats and BSTs and access to DD and some even Intimidate, etc.

So then about doubles... DD isn't really viable in doubles anyway. What Gyarados does best in Double, imo, are two things: 1) Intimidate and 2) Thunderwave / Taunt - as an attacker there are better ones, but it's a good supporter. For a Subway team, usually we don't need the support, because usually when we build subway teams for doubles, we go for quick battles so the streak goes up faster.

That's my opinion on it! O yeah, Gyarados is also a fairly solid Volcarona counter if that's worth anything. I think, probably not worth enough for your team which isn't that weak to Volcarona anyway.

I think you probably want something hard attacking that can cover what Hydreigon can't. So maybe something that resists ice and can kill Heatran. Sounds like a water type hah. I want to say thick fat Mamoswine though if you have/can get one though because you have 2 quake immunities. I also like Azumarill, but its speed might not be good enough (you'd have to put in quite a bit of speed for it to outspeed everything you want under tailwind I think, in which case you won't have as much bulk).

That's all! I'm not that good at doubles though, so hopefully I did a good enough job talking you out? :D

[BowlArt64]

I just got a 59 streak in Super Singles with a team that I know could do even better. I usually get in the low 30s, so this is sort of unprecedented for me, lol.

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Nature: Quiet
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD (I think)
IVs: Don’t remember exactly
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power (Ice 60something)
-Flash Cannon
-Volt Switch

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Nature: Relaxed
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
IVs: 31/?/31/?/?/31
-Scald
-Psychic
-Flamethrower
-Slack Off

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31 Atk and Spe, don't know rest
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch

I'd recently trained the Slowbro, so I threw this team together with stuff I had on hand. Damn is Slowbro good. It takes pretty much any physical move, and helps safeguard me from crits. Magnezone was trained to be usable in TR, and a slow Volt Switch is useful regardless. The extra HP has saved me against more than one Focus Blast. Dragonite is good ol' offensive DD, and KOs tons of stuff with +1 Outrage. The main strategy is to get Magnezone to either kill something with a superstrong move or lure Fighting, Ground, and physical Fire moves for Slowbro to wall. Bro takes care of damn near everything I've run into that has EQ, not to mention Close Combat and HJK. Dragonite takes care of what the others have trouble with, hopefully. I usually have to sac Zone against stuff like Chandelure if Nite hasn't set up yet, but the free DD is usually more than enough to mop up the rest. Everything has great defensive synergy for the most part, too.

I lost to a Breeder, if I recall correctly, with Snorlax and Excadrill. It went as follows:
Zone and Lax in, switch to Bro and take EQ, Bro ~85%
Bro Scald, Lax Belly Drum + Sitrus, Bro ~97% Lax ~65%
Bro Scald, Lax Double Edge, Bro faint, Lax ~35%, Nite in
Nite Outrage, Lax faint, Exca in
Nite Outrage, Exca CH Rock Slide + LO recoil, Nite ~10% Exca ~50%
Nite Outrage, confused, Lum, Exca Aerial Ace + LO, Nite faint, Exca faint 0-1
Percentages are very rough approximates.
I didn't have access to a computer for much of the streak, so I pretty much flew by the seat of my pants. I wasn't sure if EQ would finish Lax, so I went with what seemed safer. I guess it wasn't, though I would've at least come closer to winning if Rock Slide didn't crit or if Outrage had only lasted 2 turns. Oh well.

@atsync, I've had marginal success with Gyarados using Taunt DD w/ Lum, but in singles and with Manectric/Jolteon and Ferro. It can be alright, but I would think other stuff works better in doubles. Metagross might work if originality isn't a major concern of yours, lol.

I apologize if this is hard to read or huge or formatted terribly or should have pictures or proof or something, but this is all from my 3DS and typing is awk and I'm at the stage where putting pics in is more trouble than it's worth. 59 isn't even record material, so meh. I'll keep trying this out, though.

[atsync]

@ CD: I went on a bit of a RNG rampage recently, getting Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion, Tornadus and Landorus. I was mainly going for Tornadus but got everything else on the way! I may never use them but who knows?

Yeah I have used Gyarados a lot and it does suck as an attacker, mainly because Waterfall isn't really that powerful, as well as the fact that its movepool sucks. It's basically Waterfall/Aqua Tail, Return/Double-Edge (no supereffective coverage but excellent neutral coverage), Stone Edge (but no Rock Slide for some dumb reason; Stone Edge is awful in subway anyway), Ice Fang (weak and not 100% accurate; it's only good for Flying Dragons/Gliscor/Landorus), Earthquake (redundant coverage with Waterfall)...

The most success I had with it was my Trick Room team, funnily enough, because I was able to EV it in attack and defence without worrying so much about it being too slow. I always get suckered into using it due to its typing and Intimidate and it always underwhelms me. But I see your point, it doesn't really bring anything particularly essential to my team.

I do have a Thick Fat Mamoswine but it has trash IVs and nature. Hopefully Swinub be released as a female in the upcoming GL update. Actually I did cast my mind to Azumarill for a moment but yeah that speed. I might try it out anyway though because Adamant + 252 speed has 204 speed in Tailwind which is acceptable I guess, or maybe Feraligatr (faster though not as powerful) or something like that, I don't know yet.

But yes you did talk me out of Gyarados so thank you! Now I don't have to bother with 3rd gen RNG to get Double-Edge :p

@ BowlArt64: Yes I did consider Metagross, but then my team would be even more similar to Peterko's! I'll see.

[Carl]

I told Jump I’d post when I lost so here it is..

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The loss was to a Scientist and quite embarrassing.. it’s a match I should have won but I didn’t set up Suicune on Krookodile and for some reason just attacked instead. This left me open against CM Ninetales and, ultimately, I lost to the Focus Sash Garchomp in back. I broke my ongoing rule for this streak... up until now, I had played no more that 21 battles per day (today I lost at #33)... and I credit a lack of focus to playing stupidly.

Dragonite @Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 64 HP/252 Atk/192Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Dragon Dance
~ Outrage
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Punch

Suicune @Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP/244 Def/30 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Substitute
~ Calm Mind
~ Rest
~ Scald

Scizor @Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 244 HP/252 Atk/12 Spe
Nature: Adamant
~ Swords Dance
~ Bullet Punch
~ Bug Bite
~ Roost

The genesis of this team started a few months and many pages ago when the question “who [do] you feel is the best self-sufficient pokemon in the Subway?” was posed. At the time, all three of the above pokemon were top responses. I think each has their unique merits but I wondered what would happen if they were put to the test... together. And why not? They cover each other’s weaknesses so well; only six weaknesses and a mere three types not resisted by one mon or another. In fact, the typing combination is so good that it’s nothing new at all. I’d go as far as to credit Advance era Jumpman16 with this team set up, minus one fighting weakness and plus one fire, and that was how many years ago? I’m truly surprised ntrnsc mtvtn was the first person to post the closest thing to this team and even then, it’s not exact (more on this in a minute).

On the team itself, Dragonite hits 124 base speed with those EVs (I actually think I could add to the defense and/or special defense without losing out on anything looking at it now) which is enough to surpass Zebstrika and below after one DD. Outside of Jolteon, I’m not concerned about anything in the subway higher than 184 speed to the point that Dragonite needs to be faster. Regardless, the added HP more than makes up for any speed deficiencies and provides an extra boost to its awesome ability. Nothing resists that combination of moves so that’s a bonus of leading with Dragonite. Between Multiscale and great coverage, I can usually set up a 3-0 sweep without much effort. In addition, the Lum Berry is perfect synergy between Outrage and getting a clean DD off without a hitch. I can’t stress enough how important that item is to the entire package.

You’ve all seen that Suicune before so I won’t elaborate much. I started with the standard 252/252 defensive cune but once I saw Peterko’s EV variation, I switched over. No reason not to. One thing to note is that my current Suicune is HP Electric with a 30 speed IV (didn’t realize at the time) so Excadrill actually matches me in speed. This never hurt me on my streak but it’s something I’ll address for my next go around.

Finally, Scizor is also pretty standard but very necessary... like Lebowski’s rug, tying the room together. My first time using this team I had Superpower over Roost (and Extremespeed over Fire Punch on Dragonite) but quickly realized that wasn’t all that useful. In contrast, the added healing option really maximizes Scizor’s setup potential on the few occasions I needed it. I’d love to use Leftovers here but Suicune needs it more... fortunately, Sitrus Berry has proven to be an adept replacement, turning 2HKOs into 3HKOs and so on.

Now, to answer the question I originally set out to solve, who is the most self-sufficient Subway pokemon out of Dragonite, Suicune, and Scizor? Well, it’s definitely not the bug. I don’t mean to understate Scizor’s value to this team, it was a great safety net when called upon, but Dragonite and Suicune did most of the heavy lifting during this streak. Between those two, though, it’s a tough call. I’d give the edge to Suicune due to Pressure and the fact that it usually had to switch into and absorb an attack first before getting an opportunity to set up. Dragonite was great but got the benefit of being first man out with an active Multiscale.

Which brings me back to ntrnsc mtvtn’s team... I never once doubted the legitimacy of his record, even before he edited the post to include some notes, because I was using a very eerily similar setup. He just lead with Scizor instead of Dragonite and happened to choose a different bulky water. I’m just not sure why Scizor is upfront.. In fact, I’m more interested in the differences in our choices than our similarities. To me, leading Dragonite is logical in that you’re guaranteed to have help from Multiscale to get at least +1/+1. Most pokemon that deterred me were Ice/Rock/Water which were covered by the other two teammates. Win/win in my eyes. I’m assuming lead Scizor faces a different set of trainers and pokemon, so tough to say which approach is better, but getting Dragonite going usually resulted in an easy victory. The only thing I’m questionable about is Milotic over Suicune... Pressure alone is just too good to pass up. You can stall out so many pokemon and turn them into setup bait for the rest of the team... not to mention the ability to almost, almost, hard counter all OHKO users. 579 is excellent, though, so who am I to claim Milotic doesn’t work as well?

Sorry, I don’t mean to wax poetic about a basic Subway team.. this is the first time I’ve had a streak worth noting so I was pretty proud of it. I'm disappointed that my streak ended before closing in on Peterko and Jumpman but, in a way, relieved because I can post this team and record without worry of 'jynxing" myself. I’m confident that I can reach this number, and beyond, with the same team again but I guess that’s for another day. Until then, 404 will have to do...

[mhybear]

@Chinese Dood: Well for now I'm trying to use Stun Spore (just for testing, since Whimsicott can learn Cotton Spore so if ever I'm not satisfied I can just Heart Scale). On the case of Ground types, they aren't really threatening so I just go for Stun Spore and hope for the best, if that doesn't hit I just go for Memento. For Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Lightning Rod users I go for Worry Seed then Memento for the most part then Thunder Wave with Stoutland (so it seems like we think alike lol). So yeah, I like paralysis more than -Spd since I like the chance of getting an FP. So far I'm liking this team and am now at 56 I'll post the whole team when I lose which hopefully would be at the 70 mark or more. ^_^

Also another question, should I go full Speed or HP with my Whimsicott? Are there any priority attackers that I should watch out for? I have a Calm Whimsicott so even if I go for max Speed I would still be slower than Taunt Thundurus.

[Chinese Dood]

@Carl: Gratz on your streak! Yeah I remember when we were talking about that question about self sufficiency. Not surprised that your conclusion came down to Suicune > Dragonite > Scizor.

I'm a bit surprised that you got so far without having sub on Dragonite and Scizor! Surprise not as in disbelief, but just surprise in general, since in the past sub has always been an almost needed move for set up. Then again, it sort of make sense. I.e. Dragonite just need one DD and it's sort of ready to go, while you're obviously not setting Scizor up on anything with fire moves or anything that can hurt it a lot, so Roost is sufficient.

@mhybear: I'd go for Calm on Whimsicott since most of the time the HP will be more useful than the speed to outspeed Taunt Thundurus. That said... why not just go full speed and HP?

[mhybear]

@CD: I pumped up Def so my EV's are 252HP/252Def/4Sp.Def. This gave me more chances on using Stun Spore on Ground Types (which has been helpful for example I faced Steelix 4 and had to use Stun Spore 4 times before it hit, then got FP'd with me at 6HP, then use Memento. lol).
Also I would like to add about Worry Seed on after it changes the ability to Insomnia, the opponent can't use Rest (one example is Umbreon which I use Worry Seed first to avoid getting paralyzed too) which means that they can't cure their paralysis and/or make the battle longer than what it should be.

[Stay Gold]

Carl: Congrats on the the streak! I can't believe no one thought to combine those three on the team before, maybe because the idea of leading with Dragonite is off putting? Out of curiosity, I never feel right when my lead isn't a fast Special Attacker, a crippler, or someone like Cloyster who sets up in one turn, does anyone else ever feel like that? I guess one of my main fears of leading with a physical attacker is the possibilty of the opponent leading with an Intimidating Dragon Dancer like Gyarados or Salamence (well, only one Salamence set has DD) because I fear they'll set up when they force me to switch out my physical lead.

On another note I've toyed around with my Zapdos/Terrakion/Latios/Scizor team for awhile. It was getting somewhere, until I lost to my own misplay that lead to me getting owned by three blizzard hits, one that froze latios. I feel like there's a better teammate than Latios out there, but I cant seem to find it. Luckily, I'm going on a trip that includes a 4 hour car ride each way, so you can bet I'll be playing in the Subway the whole time.

On yet another note, I also wonder what you guys think about the viability of this set in a singles rain team for the subway:

Dragonite@Leftovers
Modest nature
Multiscale
EVs: 204 HP, 252 Sp Atk, 20 Def, 30 SpDef, 4 Speed
-Hurricane
-Thunder
-Dragon Pulse
-Thunderwave

This is kind of a bulky rain-abuse Dragonite same EVs as Jumpman's Dragonite, but with Special Attack rather than physical. I think all the attacks are self explanatory, Thunderwave is just for some support for Dragonite and it's likely partner Ferrothorn.

Anyways, good job on all your streaks everyone, and good look with future streaks!

[mhybear]

Proof of Streak

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Well that didn't last as long as I expected. Super Singles Battle Subway streak ended at 215! The team consists of two cripplers and one sweeper.
The team consists of Whimsicott/Dragonite/Stoutland. Basic crippling strategy, as long as the cripplers are alive give as much decrease as possible. It is harder for a team like this to fight taunt users especially when both my cripplers are dead. Also, stoutland is not as crit proof as other cripplers although it is bulky, it still can't survive crits from fighting type moves even after memento+intimidate.

Team Details

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Previous streak for reference


Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
IV's: 31/13/31/31/31/31
EV's: 252HP/252Def/4Sp.Def
Nature: Calm
Moves:
- Taunt
- Memento
- Stun Spore
- Worry Seed

Broken Whimsicott is broken this is my counter to clear body pokes which also help against volt absorb/lightning rod/motor drive and ground type pokes (worry seed/stun spore).


Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
IV's: 31/31/31/31/31/31
EV's: 206HP/252Atk/20Def/28Sp.Def/4Spe
Nature: Adamant
Moves:
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost

Jumpman's Dragonite, I've said all about how broken Dragonite is in my previous post.


Stoutland @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
IVs: 31/31/31/1/31/31
EVs: 252HP/6Sp.Def/252Spe
Nature: Jolly
Moves:
- Thunder Wave
- Snarl
- Sand-attack
- Charm

Props for Chinese Dood for using Stoutland and showing how much of a Crippling boss stoutland is. Aside from crits, stoutland can survive a lot of attacks with memento from Whimsicott then recovery from sitrus berry. All other info is on my previous streak post.

Notable Battle Videos

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51-76534-44585
-porygon2 traces prankster

47-14905-52670
-vs starmie (with misplays)

34-16068-56261
-vs skuntank taunt+foul play the bane of charm users

57-53008-66104
-battle 185
-vs u-turn flygon, shows one of the benefits of stun spore over cotton spore (if it hits)

62-87645-54495
-battle 195
-vs garchomp shows another benefit of stun spore. Scored a crit on my Stoutland so only got -1 accuracy, then got FP'ed 4 times.

I lost to Veteran Leron with Tornadus, Raikou, Cobalion

How I Lost

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37-40962-16343
-battle 216 (how I lost)
-Veteran Leron
Uses Tornadus
1) Whimsicott uses Worry Seed, Tornadus Uses Hurricane hits
2) Whimsicott Memento
3) Tornadus uses Focus Blast, -Sp.Def, Stoutland uses Thunder Wave
4) Stoutland Sand-attack Tornadus FP'ed
5) Stoutland Sand-attack Focus Blast Hits
6) Dragonite Sub, Tornadus Taunt
7) Dragonite Dragon Claw, Tornadus Hurricane hits, sub fades
8) Dragonite Dragon Claw, Tornadus faints
9) Raikou Thunderbolt, Dragonite Dragon Claw taunt ends
10) Raikou Thunderbolt, Dragonite Roost
11) Raikou Thunderbolt, Dragonite DD
12) (I thought I was faster, should have gone for Roost until I have multiscale) well Raikou Thunderbolt, Dragonite Faints

A lot of misplays I hate Tornadus two 70% accuracy moves and none of them missed even once after 2 sand-attacks.
When I looked at the replay I saw that the last pokemon was a Cobalion which I don't know if I can beat without boosts.

I'll probably reset my streak with this team since I'm not yet bored using it.

[ntrnsc mtvtn]

May 27th 2012, reply to Stay Gold's post

Hidden for convenience

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Thank you, Stay Gold.
That's understandable, it being my first post, but I suggest you think about why you can't "see such a team getting so far." Is it because you have actual experience using it or similar teams? If that's the case, then you haven't worked as hard as I have, and our differences in level of skill and experience make way for skepticism. If that's not the case, your skepticism probably arises from the fact that very few people land such high Single Train streaks, and those who do are usually Smogon regulars/veterans whose hard work you've been able to follow somewhat closely, earning them your trust and giving you an idea of what it takes to accomplish such streaks, and with what kinds of teams. That you would be skeptical in the first place, when no text was included, makes sense, but your post was written after my response to atsync. By now, you may have read my response to Peterko, but I wouldn't know if you (or threadrunner Peterko) actually believe that my streak is authentic. I don't know how to convince you, other than asking you to believe that I've worked hard on my own to attain the streak, and that I don't have the savvy required to produce counterfeit record screens. My picture proof doesn't really show my DS, or even its color, but I have a hard time capturing a clear image when photographing my DS, so turning of the lights for complete darkness helps - if this is a key issue, let me know, and I'll try to get a better picture.

As for the "dissertation" with "weird statistics", I'm not sure what you mean here. How does the text and its statistics give reason to doubt/reduce my credibility? I mean, they were meant to do the opposite. It's baby statistics, nothing weird, and what does it matter if no one else keeps track of them, as you theorize? Anyway, I hope the screens of Excel sheets I included later helped. While the statistics could've been easily fabricated (although I suppose it would require some knowledge to give a realistic trainer distribution; I don't know if anyone knows how the opponents are picked), the Subway roster data was very time consuming to integrate with my limited abilities in Excel, although you only see a small part of it on the screen. Also, if you're dishonorable enough to cheat in the first place, it would be weird to claim or fabricate anything for a streak that doesn't even top the list, I think.

Reply to Carl's post

Hidden for convenience

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Thank you, Carl.
Our teams really are quite similar. Congratulations on reaching 404 - here's hoping you can go even further, maybe double it, which is definitely possible. While Jumpman16 seems like an awfully nice guy (although his Subway team is kind of rude), I'm not familiar with the work of his you mention, or the self-sufficiency discussion you speak of. However, I doubt anyone needs studying to see how well Water-, Dragon-, and Steel-types work together, having great defensive synergy and being some of the best types individually. Not the greatest defensive synergy I've used on the Subway, though, mainly due to Dragonite's secondary typing.

Not sure if I get the Speed cut on your Dragonite, which doesn't use ExtremeSpeed like mine. You say you're not concerned about the pkmn with 189/194/197 Speed, but in a sketchy situation they can end your streak. Wouldn't you care more about that than some extra HP EVs? Maybe you don't get in such situations often enough. Also, aren't you wasting a EVs on Dragonite, since both 60 HP and 188 Speed are enough (assuming 31 IVs) to reach your current stats? Maybe this is what you refer to with adding to Defense and Special Defense - unclear to me. Agreeing on the importance of Lum Berry insurance. On ExtremeSpeed not being all that useful, it is to me since Dragonite is my backup and not my lead. It has been absolutely necessary for survival countless times when no risks can be taken.

I don't use Roost on Scizor as I find Scizor's HP/Defense/Special Defense to be too low for a Recover variant. It uses up a turn where the foe can land secondary effects or a critical hit, and Scizor just doesn't take that like Milotic. I also don't want to miss out on Protect's scouting ability, but with you not using Leftovers, this comparison may be somewhat pointless. Anyway, kind of repeating what I've said before; if you don't absolutely need Leftovers on your other teammates, like Carl's Suicune, try giving them to a Scizor with Protect - it works wonders, and there's a reason I use it over Roost. Your evaluation of sufficiency makes sense, seeing as our respective Scizor and Dragonite have swapped team roles. As mentioned previously, my Scizor and Milotic are used way more than my backup Dragonite, but I think that says a lot about Dragonite's reliability or self-sufficiency as well. Looking at the records (including yours), it would seem obvious that Suicune has proven itself as the most valuable pkmn in the Subway, but I have no way of telling since I've never used one, and don't have access to one either.

As stated above, there are some differences between our Dragonite and our Scizor, I think with yours generally taking more risks than mine, looking at Dragonite Speed differences, Fire Punch over ExtremeSpeed, and Roost/Sitrus over Protect/Leftovers. In addition, your Scizor has better stats than mine, not only because my Scizor has IV cuts on everything but Attack (assuming yours has none), but also because of the Speed investment I've been longing for ever since I started battling on the Subway; ideally 176/200/120/--/100/86 (with 10 EVs left undecided), instead of current IV cut 176/200/120/--/99/83 (all are cut but Attack). I've also thought about trying Special Defense investment, but that's just an idea (in this case, I'd consider Roost as well). However, none of that will happen unless I take the time to get a pkmn with perfect IVs in Generation IV, or learn how to become an RNG thug (get it?) in that generation, as Scizor doesn't learn Bug Bite in Black or White - maybe in the upcoming sequels. This means I don't have access to Roost either, but I have experience with that from when I used this Scizor in Generation IV, hence my text about it above. It's like that with Suicune too, though I'd have to play through HeartGold or SoulSilver in addition.

That was a lot of boring practical circumstances, but I feel like it may be important for those who wish to understand why I used exactly what I used, and I'll spoiler it for convenience anyway. So yeah, choosing Milotic over Suicune was more a question of accessibility than preference, and I think they're highly dissimilar anyway. I've never really doubted that Suicune is better in almost all aspects, and in addition it gets something from walling an opponent, such as a Substitute and/or Calm Mind stat boosts (which can be game-winning), unlike Milotic which at best gets its Sitrus Berry eaten or is afflicted with some secondary status/stat drops. There's also the much desired proper utilization of Substitute, which must be so nice against OHKO-users like Walrein 4 (I see now that you mention some of this later in your post). Then again, no experience, other side, green grass, etc. I'm just pretty sure Milotic is in no way superior to Suicune, and may very well be strongly inferior. Recover is an advantage, though, but even then I often long for Rest, and that's not because of Marvel Scale. Anyway, this pkmn is a darling and it works well, as proven by the many long streaks I've achieved with it.

There is no doubt that leading with Dragonite, which I sometimes do myself in some of the earlier battles before #49, most often leads to easier and much faster battles, but I strongly prefer using Dragonite as backup instead. In some cases, lead Dragonite becomes shaky in a way I can't even switch my way out of, so I'd rather have a lead that can scout with Protect, and that (thanks to Bullet Punch) always gets at least something done. In addition, I strongly prefer Milotic's defensive synergy with Scizor over what it has with Dragonite, so it's easier to switch with lead Scizor as well. I also dislike Outraging when the opponent has 3 pkmn left (need I explain?), so I prefer waiting till later. Waiting backfires when sandstorm, hailstorm, or Stealth Rock breaks Multiscale, though. This Dragonite is a really comfortable backup, so I can't help but keeping it from the lead slot. Technician Bullet Punch or not, I think I'd swap Scizor for a defensively stronger Steel-type if I were to use Dragonite as my lead. I may be misinterpreting your usage of the word "cover", but your statement about covering Ice-, Rock-, and Water-types with Suicune and Scizor I don't understand as it's very general, and especially confusing with Rock-types included, which neither resist. Maybe I don't get it because I haven't used Suicune, but no one likes a neutral critical hit STAB Stone Edge, especially not on the switch. Just curious. Think Aerodactyl or Archeops, Scizor one-shots both, but if he's not facing them I have to revenge them, because switching in Scizor could cost me much more than one pkmn. Need to consider how slow the entire team actually is, despite being 'standard'.

Reply to BowlArt64's post

Hidden for convenience

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Regenerator Slowbro is one of the few Hidden Abilities pkmn I have my hands on and have tried. Although it is very good, its secondary typing makes for 5 instead of 2 weaknesses, which (with its role on the team) greatly shows in the long run compared to pure Water-types, even if you have a fancy Steel-type to cover with, and/or if your team benefits greatly from Slowbro's Fighting-type resistance, for example. And this is without mentioning its lower Speed. Just a note on that pkmn in general, doesn't mean it's not adorable, better than many other things, and incredible in some situations.

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Hidden for convenience

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Something I consider quite a flaw in my response to Peterko is that I somewhat touch on specific Subway pkmn (something I find it a bit dangerous to do, as it can easily lead to false or incomplete information), mainly Electric-types, but make no mention of Electivire 4 who I think on paper is the biggest individual threat to my team, all misfortune aside; outspeeding everything, packing all three elemental punches, resulting in x4 effectiveness on the two pkmn it happens to not hit super effectively with STAB. Dragonite can handle it if Ice Punch doesn't hit critically. Depending on Marvel Scale, full paralysis, and critical hits, Milotic can last and take it out with Toxic, which I've done several times. However, it's always trouble, which is no wonder considering the fact that it can single-handedly finish my entire team in 3 turns, assuming critical hits - against Scizor it doesn't even need the critical hit, just an adequate damage roll. I'm glad that the similar Electivire 2 runs (low Special Attack) Electro Ball instead of ThunderPunch. How does Suicune do against Electivire 4? Again, if there's anything anyone is curious about, just ask like Carl did, 'cause I wouldn't know how to write about, or where to begin with, team strategy just like that.

My plan was to hit 700 and stop there, satisfied, just like I did in the Battle Tower when I got to 100. With 579, I fell 121 battles short of that goal, but that's okay, I had fun. As with my 409 Scizor/Milotic/Garchomp streak (November 2011), this was actually my first streak ever with the team. Sure, it can reach 700, but getting there takes weeks, and giving it the number of tries it takes to go 700 battles in a row without losing that one battle that becomes too much, or is lost to a non-hindsight misplay, is just not appealing at all to me at this point, although this number of tries could be very few, seeing as how I almost got it right on the first try. In other words, if I want to surpass 579 and maybe graduate the Subway with 700, I'll have to race the RNG with enough attempts till that battle of defeat doesn't land before battle #700. This is strongly undesirable as my personal sense of control is very low here, and it kind of calls for marathoning - which I prefer to avoid. As such, a team with lower or no chance of losing is a more desirable solution, if I decide to aim for an increase. 579 with the team I used is more than enough to make me feel like I've done a fantastic job, though.

Also, it's pretty obvious that many people in this thread generally emulate the strategy popularized by Jumpman16 with his (currently #1) team of Whimsicott/Mesprit/Dragonite. So, to Jumpman16 or anyone with (partial) experience on that - is the team invincible disregarding non-hindsight human error? I used Whimsicott long before I knew it was trending here, so seeing the original team using a Careful Whimsicott with 252 Speed EVs, I have to ask; doesn't Tornadus 4 and Thundurus 4's Prankster Taunt pose an extreme, possibly game-losing, threat? What about switches, how do you handle them? I suppose they're mainly caused by U-turn and Volt Switch. I'm just naming ideas off the top of my head, as I'm curious as to if an invincible team (if played right) has been crafted. If it's been adressed earlier, I'd appreciate directions.

May 28th 2012, even more

Hidden for convenience

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After seeing this guy use a crippling team to achieve a streak of 215 without knowing that critical hits ignore the user's stat decreases (which is ironically of utmost importance for crippling strategies), I absolutely have to look into full-on crippling myself, 'cause to me that's an eye-opening display of power, even though I've reached 579. This also fits with what I wrote yesterday about my current Subway situation. Could be fun with something new, and interesting to fare beyond my usual do-it-yourself-without-help-from-outside approach. As I wrote in my first post in the part where I answered atsync, I've been around most strategies myself. This includes crippling, or semi-crippling, so I have some experience to go by, although I've often ditched this approach halfway in favor of standard, as mentioned.

I'll go back to my "recipient" Dragonite, which I'll have to breed over because it has Inner Focus. It may seem odd that I've used this, but if you can only have one type of attack, Dragon-type is a good choice, and Dragonite was (and is still) the only Dragon-type with a Recover variant I had access to, so it fit the bill even without Multiscale. Comparing now, its EV distribution is nearly identical to Jumpman16's, which is understandable considering multiples of 16 for Leftovers. Moveset is completely identical, but then again, why would I have used anything else? Dragonite's ready from my previous work, and if I wouldn't consider replacing it before, I doubt I will when Multiscale is added to the mix.

I also have experience with lead Whimsicott, which was a logical choice since Prankster is an invaluable Ability for crippling, and Whimsicott has the best movepool for that among the Pranksters. However, due to a complete lack of knowledge on the fact that the move Worry Seed actually changes the foe's Ability (which is odd considering all the near-useless move/pkmn trivia occupying my brain space), I did not use the popular moveset incorporating said move, meaning that I now can't enjoy the luxury of eventually devising it myself, but have to steal it like a petty thief from whoever thought of it first. For the middle slot, I could opt for my old Heat Rotom which holds Choice Scarf and uses Trick, Thunder Wave, Flash, and has had various moves in the last slot. On the other hand, Uxie can do the same, but with much higher defenses and can use Memento in addition, so I'll probably go for that, but the EVs will be very flawed (read above).

If this happens, it's going to look a lot like the usual crippling teams posted here, especially Jumpman16's, but at least I had some of the work done by myself from before. On that, I'm still curious as to why on earth he'd invest in Whimsicott's Speed to below the point where it outspeeds the other Pranksters; at this point I'm convinced it's a typo. If I use the same Whimsicott moveset myself, I will eventually learn what happens against Tornadus' confusion-inducing Hurricane, Pranksters' Taunt, and U-turners/Volt Switchers, which I mentioned yesterday. If the solution relies on the AI making "mistakes", this is a dangerous strategy, at least from my perspective, since the AI frequently juggles first turn strategies from battle to battle against me, causing me to never know if I should expect A or B, or in some cases, even C.

Reply to Carl's second post

Hidden for convenience

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Thanks for answering.
Yeah, I guess since Dragonite is your lead, you can afford the extra HP investment, which I gladly sacrifice for security in the tense situations my Dragonite face in its role as backup. Of course, at 132, I also get the advantage of outspeeding a good deal of (threatening) Subway pkmn without the first Speed increase from Dragon Dance. But this is again of varying importance depending on which role Dragonite serves on the team. If it's going to Dragon Dance anyway, as it often will as a lead, initial Speed difference is of less importance, although there are still flinches to consider. By the way, as with Roost, my Scizor's regeneration completely trivializes the damage taken from pkmn like Weavile and Sceptile you mention, to the point where it will often have full or close to full HP left after dealing with them, just a note, since you mentioned them and Roost.

Yes, item clause explains the differences between our Scizor, because I can't see any other reason (than item clause) why anyone would want to go back to Roost or whatever after trying Protect with Leftovers. Just feel like it's important to make a point on that, 'cause that combination greatly defines my 579 team, and any other team I've used with Scizor on it since the Battle Tower. Advertising is probably in vain, though, considering how popular the item is on other pkmn such as Suicune. Example with Aggron 4 is great, 'cause Milotic also handles that easily, but doesn't benefit from it later in battle, like Suicune. Agreeing on Dragon Dancing twice and the wonders of Bug Bite... it does the biting with its pincer(s), right??

[bluemon]

Why isn't ninjask more popular? A simple set of sub-protect-swords dance- baton pass paired up with something like whimsicott and a sweeper (let's say terrakion) seems good.

[Stay Gold]

@bluemon despite how great it sounds, ninjask doesnt work as well as you may think in the subway. There's too many things that can go wrong (getting koed after baton bass, getting taunted, often times you cant even get an SD off because the opponent can break your sash and ko before you pass if they have a priority move, or getting statused) You're better off using a poke that can set up on their own and sweep.

@ntrsnc mtvtn sorry I doubted you so much in the beginning :P I guess I was just kind of being thoughtless, but I definitely believe it now when I look at your discussion and data. I think just Scizor leading made me skeptical, but i havent tried it myself, so I really shouldnt have doubted you

[bluemon]

Originally Posted by Fat Stay Gold

@bluemon despite how great it sounds, ninjask doesnt work as well as you may think in the subway. There's too many things that can go wrong (getting koed after baton bass, getting taunted, often times you cant even get an SD off because the opponent can break your sash and ko before you pass if they have a priority move, or getting statused) You're better off using a poke that can set up on their own and sweep.

Thats why you use a whimsicott before hand for that memento + taunt ;)

but i see what you are saying.

For my next round im gunna try:

Stoutland (props to Chinese Dood)
@ Focus Sash
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252HP / 6Sp.Def / 252Spe
Nature: Jolly
Moves:
- Thunder Wave
- Snarl
- Sand-attack
- Charm

Ninjask (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Baton Pass

Terrakion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Sacred Sword (close combat is counter-intuitive, and being able to hit through boosts is AWESOME)
- Rock Slide (cuz misses are bs)
- X-Scissor

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Fat Chinese Dood

@Carl: Gratz on your streak! Yeah I remember when we were talking about that question about self sufficiency. Not surprised that your conclusion came down to Suicune > Dragonite > Scizor.

I'm a bit surprised that you got so far without having sub on Dragonite and Scizor! Surprise not as in disbelief, but just surprise in general, since in the past sub has always been an almost needed move for set up. Then again, it sort of make sense. I.e. Dragonite just need one DD and it's sort of ready to go, while you're obviously not setting Scizor up on anything with fire moves or anything that can hurt it a lot, so Roost is sufficient.

Jump and I discussed the team after I posted and he had asked about Substitute on Dragonite as well. It would make sense to try it out but I like having the added coverage Fire Punch provides, even if it’s on the rare occasion. If I can avoid using Outrage in a 3-3 situation, I usually do, just to avoid being stuck in an awkward spot. Fire Punch hits some things I would otherwise have to Outrage... like grass types for example. And I have no problem letting Lum Berry absorb status for me while I Dragon Dance, so there’s that. I suppose Scizor can cover many of them but I like Scizor as an insurance policy and would rather get Dragonite going first. Scizor is too frail for Substitute in my eyes... unless I gave up Bug Bite and kept Roost, which I’m not willing to do. Being careful about Roost, and the fact that I usually don’t set up Scizor very often, it’s been easy to not need Sub there.

Originally Posted by Fat Stay Gold

Carl: Congrats on the the streak! I can't believe no one thought to combine those three on the team before, maybe because the idea of leading with Dragonite is off putting? Out of curiosity, I never feel right when my lead isn't a fast Special Attacker, a crippler, or someone like Cloyster who sets up in one turn, does anyone else ever feel like that? I guess one of my main fears of leading with a physical attacker is the possibilty of the opponent leading with an Intimidating Dragon Dancer like Gyarados or Salamence (well, only one Salamence set has DD) because I fear they'll set up when they force me to switch out my physical lead.

Funny that you mention Cloyster because that’s one of the reasons I chose to use Dragonite as the lead. I had tried out Peterko’s team prior to this streak and loved how it had one turn set-up. Dragonite follows the same mold and, in many battles, acts the same as Cloyster, just without a reliance on Focus Sash to make sure it gets the set-up turn. I’m also not worried too much about pokemon with Intimidate. The biggest threat to me, in my eyes, is Gyarados because neither Scizor nor Suicune scare it much. If I see Gyara as a lead, I DD once to negate Intimidate and then Outrage. The Ice Fang version likes to Thunder Wave me, which is handy, and the others will DD on me more than they need to. I’ll Outrage Salamence straight up, like I do with most Dragons that lead. Luxray is annoying in that #4 has Air Balloon so I have to Outrage after DDing. In general, I think a +0/+1 Dragonite is still more dangerous to a lot of pokemon than you’d imagine. STAB Outrage is quite strong on its own without the attack boosts. I'm not concerned about switching out because I think it's better to stay in.

Since it was done in his post and I'm only adding to the length, I'll use the hide tag for this as well...

Responses to ntrnsc mtvtn. Hidden because it's long!

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Originally Posted by Fat ntrnsc mtvtn

Thank you, Carl.
Our teams really are quite similar. Congratulations on reaching 404 - here's hoping you can go even further, maybe double it, which is definitely possible. While Jumpman16 seems like an awfully nice guy (although his Subway team is kind of rude), I'm not familiar with the work of his you mention, or the self-sufficiency discussion you speak of. However, I doubt anyone needs studying to see how well Water-, Dragon-, and Steel-types work together, having great defensive synergy and being some of the best types individually. Not the greatest defensive synergy I've used on the Subway, though, mainly due to Dragonite's secondary typing.

The self-sufficiency discussion was just a few posts from this thread maybe 2 months ago? I linked to the original post that posed question when I mentioned it. And the team I hinted at was one dating back to Emerald Battle Frontier, though I can’t find the thread now, where Jump was championing his Icy Wind Suicune even then. The team was CB Salamence, CM Suicune and Curse Snorlax... arguably that’s the same basic premise as our teams from a type coverage standpoint... just you add a fighting weakness and remove the fire one. Not the exact same but the point being that dragons and waters have been paired together for a long time.

Originally Posted by Fat ntrnsc mtvtn

Not sure if I get the Speed cut on your Dragonite, which doesn't use ExtremeSpeed like mine. You say you're not concerned about the pkmn with 189/194/197 Speed, but in a sketchy situation they can end your streak. Wouldn't you care more about that than some extra HP EVs? Maybe you don't get in such situations often enough. Also, aren't you wasting a EVs on Dragonite, since both 60 HP and 188 Speed are enough (assuming 31 IVs) to reach your current stats? Maybe this is what you refer to with adding to Defense and Special Defense - unclear to me. Agreeing on the importance of Lum Berry insurance. On ExtremeSpeed not being all that useful, it is to me since Dragonite is my backup and not my lead. It has been absolutely necessary for survival countless times when no risks can be taken.

Well, if you look at the list, you have the following:

189 speed - Sceptile 2,3,4 / Dugtrio 1,3,4 / Alakazam 1-4
From the lead spot, if Dragonite faces any Sceptile, it could set up at least +1/+1 and then just move on, but the bonus is that Scizor covers any of those sets.. and can comfortably switch in. Especially on Sceptile 2, if you’re worried about Dragon Pulse. This pokemon is a situation where Roost comes in handy.

Dugtrio is Dragonite set up bait, even Dug 3 because it will sometimes Earthquake randomly instead of Rock Slide. For whatever reason RS scores a flinch and/or CH, Suicune is more than bulky enough to come in and finish the job or Scizor more than powerful enough to just KO with BP, I believe.

Alakazam is annoying because of the Trick variant and the Encore variant. From the lead spot, I usually just attack and move on. Better to go up a quick 3-2 in my eyes.. and I’d actually rather Dragonite take the Choice Specs over Scizor. Dragonite is pretty powerful with Outrage, even with his base 204 attack. I don't mind being locked into that.

194 Speed - Weavile 1-4
This is an insta-switch to Scizor. I usually don’t see Weavile in the lead very often, actually more as the last mon out... and like I’ve mentioned, Scizor does not do very much work on this team so I basically always had him ready and waiting in those situations.

197 Speed - Accelgor 2
Dragonite or Scizor can set up on this so I’ve never worried about it, even Suicune can in a pinch.

If I could outspeed Jolteon, Aerodactyl and Crobat after 1 DD still being Adamant, then absolutely I would max out the speed EVs. I don’t believe those pokemon in the 189-197 range above are, alone, worth the added investment, though. Not with the way I have Dragonite functioning from the lead spot... there’s often times where, like in some sports, he needs to take a hit to make a play, so to speak. If I used Dragonite in back and lead with Scizor, I would definitely consider the added speed. Same with Extremespeed... it was just never very useful when I already out-sped most pokemon as a lead. And yes, posting the team made me notice the EVs were wrong and don’t maximize Dragonite’s potential. Not sure why I did that, other than it was a long time ago when I did the EV training.

Originally Posted by Fat ntrnsc mtvtn

I don't use Roost on Scizor as I find Scizor's HP/Defense/Special Defense to be too low for a Recover variant. It uses up a turn where the foe can land secondary effects or a critical hit, and Scizor just doesn't take that like Milotic. I also don't want to miss out on Protect's scouting ability, but with you not using Leftovers, this comparison may be somewhat pointless. Anyway, kind of repeating what I've said before; if you don't absolutely need Leftovers on your other teammates, like Carl's Suicune, try giving them to a Scizor with Protect - it works wonders, and there's a reason I use it over Roost. Your evaluation of sufficiency makes sense, seeing as our respective Scizor and Dragonite have swapped team roles. As mentioned previously, my Scizor and Milotic are used way more than my backup Dragonite, but I think that says a lot about Dragonite's reliability or self-sufficiency as well. Looking at the records (including yours), it would seem obvious that Suicune has proven itself as the most valuable pkmn in the Subway, but I have no way of telling since I've never used one, and don't have access to one either.

As stated above, there are some differences between our Dragonite and our Scizor, I think with yours generally taking more risks than mine, looking at Dragonite Speed differences, Fire Punch over ExtremeSpeed, and Roost/Sitrus over Protect/Leftovers. In addition, your Scizor has better stats than mine, not only because my Scizor has IV cuts on everything but Attack (assuming yours has none), but also because of the Speed investment I've been longing for ever since I started battling on the Subway; ideally 176/200/120/--/100/86 (with 10 EVs left undecided), instead of current IV cut 176/200/120/--/99/83 (all are cut but Attack). I've also thought about trying Special Defense investment, but that's just an idea (in this case, I'd consider Roost as well). However, none of that will happen unless I take the time to get a pkmn with perfect IVs in Generation IV, or learn how to become an RNG thug (get it?) in that generation, as Scizor doesn't learn Bug Bite in Black or White - maybe in the upcoming sequels. This means I don't have access to Roost either, but I have experience with that from when I used this Scizor in Generation IV, hence my text about it above. It's like that with Suicune too, though I'd have to play through HeartGold or SoulSilver in addition.

It’s only in spot situations that Roost is used as I, too, find the pokemon to be pretty frail. It’s also why I never considered Substitute as an option. Blocking status from time to time would be nice but not worth the slot when Roost can be more handy in terms of dealing with something like Weavile or Sceptile, for example. And I like having Bug Bite as a secondary attacking option. I’d be more in your camp and willing to try Protect before Substitute, assuming it had Leftovers of course. It’s just not a luxury you can spare when Suicune is infinitely stronger with Lefties than it is with Chesto Berry.

Originally Posted by Fat ntrnsc mtvtn

That was a lot of boring practical circumstances, but I feel like it may be important for those who wish to understand why I used exactly what I used, and I'll spoiler it for convenience anyway. So yeah, choosing Milotic over Suicune was more a question of accessibility than preference, and I think they're highly dissimilar anyway. I've never really doubted that Suicune is better in almost all aspects, and in addition it gets something from walling an opponent, such as a Substitute and/or Calm Mind stat boosts (which can be game-winning), unlike Milotic which at best gets its Sitrus Berry eaten or is afflicted with some secondary status/stat drops. There's also the much desired proper utilization of Substitute, which must be so nice against OHKO-users like Walrein 4 (I see now that you mention some of this later in your post). Then again, no experience, other side, green grass, etc. I'm just pretty sure Milotic is in no way superior to Suicune, and may very well be strongly inferior. Recover is an advantage, though, but even then I often long for Rest, and that's not because of Marvel Scale. Anyway, this pkmn is a darling and it works well, as proven by the many long streaks I've achieved with it.

There is no doubt that leading with Dragonite, which I sometimes do myself in some of the earlier battles before #49, most often leads to easier and much faster battles, but I strongly prefer using Dragonite as backup instead. In some cases, lead Dragonite becomes shaky in a way I can't even switch my way out of, so I'd rather have a lead that can scout with Protect, and that (thanks to Bullet Punch) always gets at least something done. In addition, I strongly prefer Milotic's defensive synergy with Scizor over what it has with Dragonite, so it's easier to switch with lead Scizor as well. I also dislike Outraging when the opponent has 3 pkmn left (need I explain?), so I prefer waiting till later. Waiting backfires when sandstorm, hailstorm, or Stealth Rock breaks Multiscale, though. This Dragonite is a really comfortable backup, so I can't help but keeping it from the lead slot. Technician Bullet Punch or not, I think I'd swap Scizor for a defensively stronger Steel-type if I were to use Dragonite as my lead. I may be misinterpreting your usage of the word "cover", but your statement about covering Ice-, Rock-, and Water-types with Suicune and Scizor I don't understand as it's very general, and especially confusing with Rock-types included, which neither resist. Maybe I don't get it because I haven't used Suicune, but no one likes a neutral critical hit STAB Stone Edge, especially not on the switch. Just curious. Think Aerodactyl or Archeops, Scizor one-shots both, but if he's not facing them I have to revenge them, because switching in Scizor could cost me much more than one pkmn. Need to consider how slow the entire team actually is, despite being 'standard'.

Makes sense why you have Milotic. I pulled my Suicune from pokecheck.org, so I can empathize. Suicune’s defenses are 205/182 at level 50 which is a significant jump from 202/144 that Milotic has. This is partially how it counters rock types. Scald is still super effective and can KO if needed. The other part, though, is Pressure. Our rock (and ground) friends have two moves in the Subway most of the time: Rock Slide and Stone Edge. Both moves are prone to misses but, more importantly, have no more than 5 shots maximum against Suicune thanks to Pressure. With Substitute, you can PP stall, and even without a miss, usually come out on top. A great example to this is Aggron 4, which I’ve see a fair bit of. Stone Edge is easy to stall out and then EQ and Shadow Claw can’t break the Sub in one hit. It’s an easy win whenever I see this pokemon. There are certain exceptions, like CB Head Smash Archeops which I have to sacrifice Dragonite to and then revenge kill with Scizor (this is why I lumped Scizor in as a “counter” but it’s really an insurance policy), but mostly Suicune is bulky enough to handle rock attacks on the switch. Against weaker pokemon, Dragonite can also eat a Rock Slide or Stone Edge, DD and then proceed to kill them. Thank you, Multiscale. The pokemon on this team are good but it’s their abilities that make them great.

I had considered Metagross over Scizor before but I love the fact that I have a set up move on every team member to fall back on, if necessary. Metagross gets Hone Claws, I suppose, but that’s messy when you think about pretty much needing to use it before Meteor Mash and eh.. Scizor seems more reliable as a pokemon in pinch situations, which is how I play it. As an aside, I criminally underrated Bug Bite as a move for a while but being able to steal berries is awesome.

I’m usually leery about Outraging from the start which is where Fire Punch has its uses. Against many grass types, for example, I would have to lock into Outrage without it because EQ won't net a KO. I don't believe I ever mentioned this but I'm usually content with only 2 DD boosts before cleaning up and prefer to keep some HP over another boost to speed and attack in case of Sash/Brightpowder/Lax Incense/Quick Claw or Sturdy. Suicune has less issues with Steels than I imagine your Milotic does, so even if I do get stuck in an Outrage cycle against an incoming steel, Suicune can handle and set up in most scenarios. The most notable exception being Magnezone which can be troublesome.

Originally Posted by Fat ntrnsc mtvtn

Something I consider quite a flaw in my response to Peterko is that I somewhat touch on specific Subway pkmn (something I find it a bit dangerous to do, as it can easily lead to false or incomplete information), mainly Electric-types, but make no mention of Electivire 4 who I think on paper is the biggest individual threat to my team, all misfortune aside; outspeeding everything, packing all three elemental punches, resulting in x4 effectiveness on the two pkmn it happens to not hit super effectively with STAB. Dragonite can handle it if Ice Punch doesn't hit critically. Depending on Marvel Scale, full paralysis, and critical hits, Milotic can last and take it out with Toxic, which I've done several times. However, it's always trouble, which is no wonder considering the fact that it can single-handedly finish my entire team in 3 turns, assuming critical hits - against Scizor it doesn't even need the critical hit, just an adequate damage roll. I'm glad that the similar Electivire 2 runs (low Special Attack) Electro Ball instead of ThunderPunch. How does Suicune do against Electivire 4? Again, if there's anything anyone is curious about, just ask like Carl did, 'cause I wouldn't know how to write about, or where to begin with, team strategy just like that.

Electric types are definitely a bane for this team’s type combination. Electivire 4 is something I see from the lead spot or when Suicune is already set-up, so thankfully I haven’t had any issues with it yet. Suicune is bulky enough with Leftovers to take a few T-punches, I believe, though I’ve never had to put it to the test.

As a general note about my team, there’s plenty of threats that, situationally, I’ve never faced because I got stat boosts up first. That’s what makes my loss so painful.. I disregarded everything I had done to get to that point and didn’t set up Suicune. It's completely on my error that my streak ended.

PHEW. That was a lot to respond to. With the Subway there is just so much you could talk about so if I missed anything, feel free to bring it up and I'll try to explain. The theorymoning is my favorite part of pokemon and has been for a long time.

[Gertle627]

Finally got a decent streak without using Salamence!

Darmanitan @ choice scarf
level 50 stats: HP: 177, Atk: 206, Def: 73, SpAtk: 36, SpDef: 68, Spd: 146
-Flare Blitz
-Earthquake
-Super Power
-U-Turn

My first few times trying this out didn't go too well, but the last time I got to 71 with this same team and thought that I might be on to something. Basically, if I'm not 100% sure that I will outspeed and OHKO, I switch. The speed and sheer power (no ability pun intended) was a life safer on several occasions later in the match.

Gengar @ focus sash
level 50 stats: HP: 139, Atk: 74, Def: 76, SpAtk: 195, SpDef: 91, Spd: 153
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast
-Destiny Bond

At first it was weird using this as anything but a lead, but its teammates attract a lot of fighting and ground moves, so it isn't too hard to safely switch in. The AI using random moves that do damage Gar did make a few battles closer than I would have liked. Such as opposing lead Marowak using Stone Edge instead of EQ. But even activating the sash on the switch usually allows me to take at least 1 down with me.

Ferrothorn @ leftovers
level 50 stats: HP: 177, Atk: 114, Def: 149, SpAtk: 55, SpDef: 182, Spd: 31
-Gyro Ball
-Curse
-Leech Seed
-Substitute

Everyone knows what a beast Ferro is, and now that I finally got some PP Ups, it helped me more than ever. The iron barbs helped me about as much as anything else this poke did to break opponents' sashes & sturdy.


This is a pretty fun team to use, as it doesn't rely on stalling too much. I didn't pay attention to the trainer when my last battle started but he led with Zapdos. I U-turned out to Ferrothorn as he used Double Team. I attempted to Seed it, but a Heat Wave OHKOed me. I brought in Gengar, but only hit about 2 of the next 10 turns with Shadow Ball. It only did about ~30% damage and just Roosted it off, while spamming Double Team. It swept me single-handedly. I guess I should have just attacked with Flare Blitz from the start. Oh well.

[pokemonwargeneral]

I finally got an awesome winning streak out of this team! I have been using the team since September of last year. Originally, I used the Dream World Drought Ninetales with Darmanitan, and they kept hitting a 100 streak; but when I bred a heat wave Ninetales and exchanged stupid Darmanitan for my signature fire starter that I used during Generation 4, things went well. The result? A Double Battle Sibway record of 234!
The Team:




Ninetales/SYMPHONIA (sex-female)
Nature: Timid, Ability: Drought, Item: Life Orb.
Evs: 6 Hp, 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed.
Moveset:
Heat Wave
Solar Beam
Sunny Day
Protect

Typhlosion/ZENMETSURO (sex-male, a translation of his part Latin and part Japanese name, it means annihilating flames)
Nature: Timid, Ability: Blaze, Item: Choice Scarf.
Evs: 6 Hp, 252 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed.
Moveset:
Eruption
Solar Beam
Hidden Power-Ice ( or like how I like to call it-Hice)
Focus Blast (Don't think I even used it during my streak)

Garchomp/Stephanie (sex-female)
Nature: Jolly, Ability: Sand Veil, Item: Expert Belt
Evs: 6 Hp, 252 Atk, 252 Speed.
Moveset:
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Protect

Cressilia/MsMaryMoon (sex-female)
Nature: Bold, Ability: Levitate, Item: Flame Orb
Evs: 252 Hp, 100 Defense, 158 Sp. Defense
Moveset:
Psyshock
Psycho Shift
Calm Mind
Moonlight

In quick overview, this is an all out attack sun team that is backed up by the ultimate psychic queen of defense, and the master of earthquake sweeping. Originally I was using Ninetales with flamethrower instead of heat wave, and Darmanitan at lead. like I said earlier, Darmanitan failed and I went with my favorite from last gen-Typhlosion. But even with the fire rat/porcupine pokemon, Eruption was not always enough to OHKO both opposing Pokemon, not to mention the sturdies and sashers. So I bred a Heat Wave Droughtales to back up Typhlosion.

The team members cover each other flawlessly. Though there has been other sun team records on Smogon, I think this one stands at the top; but that is mainly due to Ninetales immediate sun ability and not having to waste a turn for Whimsicott to get it started. Cressilia has always been the impregnable sun supporter; with the new psyshock (which takes care of the Blissey problems), intensified Moonlight recovery in the sun, and Psychoshift move to burn her adversaries such as Tyranitar, and Scizor, Cressilia was nearly unstoppable in this team. And of course the last back up girl-Stephanie-was in place for the fire resistent Dragon, rock types and Flash Fire opponents.

Matches with the team usually ended in just a few minutes. Some irratating hinderences were Tyranitar leads (God forbid when the computer sends out Excadrill with him), Aerodactyl&Archeops with rockslide flinch hax, Flash Fire Chandelure, where the only person who could take the candle on is my Garchomp. I was elated to finally be able to shut down all the hail teams at the subway. But of course, my streak came to an end with Heat Wave missing, a fast ground type and some bulky dragon to take on Cressy 1 on 1. Here is a detailed account of the last recorded match. As soon as I find out how to post my picture proof (since I can't load it from a Smogon picture album like the last time) I will do it.

Battle starts:
I send out Ninetales and Typhlosion, opponent Socialete Saty sends out Landorus and Moltres.
1st turn: I withdraw Typhlosion and switch in Cressilia, and portected with Ninetales. Foe Landorus used Earth power, but my switched in Cressilia avoided the attack. Foe Moltres used Air Slash on my switched in Cressilia, knocking her from 225hp-179hp. The Flame Orb burns my Cressilia

2nd turn: Foe Landorus used Earth power! Ninetales takes it 148hp-2hp. Ninetales used Heat Wave... Landorus avoided the attack! Does 1/3 damage to Moltres' hp. Life Orb drains the remaing hp of my Ninetales away; Symphonia fainted. Foe Moltres used Solar Beam! A CRITICAL HIT to my Cressilia 179hp-68hp. Cressilia used Calm Mind! The burn damage drains Cressilia to 40hp. I send in Typhlosion in the place of Symphonia.

3rd turn: I switch my Cressilia in and replace her with Garchomp. My Typhlosion used his signature move Eruption! It brings Moltres to a good red hp, and Landorus hangs on with Focus Sash. Foe Landorus used Earth Power! Zenmetsuro fainted! Foe Moltres used Flamethrower on Garchomp! 184hp-109hp. I send in Cressilia in the place of Zenmetsuro.

4th turn: Garchomp used Rock Slide! Foe Landorus fainted & Foe Moltres fainted. Cressilia use Moon Light! 40hp-190hp. Burn damage drains Cressilia to 162hp.

5th turn: Socialite Saty sent out Latias & Articuno. Garchomp used Protect! Latias used Dragon Pulse... but Garchomp protected! Articnou used Ice Beam... but Garchomp protected herself. Cressilia used Calm Mind! Burn drains Cressilia 162hp-134.

6th turn: Garchomp used Rock Slide! Articuno somehow takes it on a very low yellow hp and Latias on a very high green. They both flinch! Cressilia used Moon Light! 134hp-225hp. Burn drain 225hp-197hp (I think I now see my error, I should have struck the artic pidgeon with Psyshock instead Moon Light).

7th turn: Garchomp used Protect! Both foes try to strike her again and fail! Cressilia Psyshocks Articuno and it takes it on an unbelievable, unseeable red hp! Burn drain 197hp-169hp.

8th turn: Garchomp used Dragon Claw! The Foe's Latias takes the stabbed power 120, 359 attack exexpert belt Dragon Claw on a low red! And Dragon pulses Garchomp away! (I always knew both Lati's were better than Garchomp, but it was nice to be reminded). Stephanie Fainted! Articuno used Ice Beam on Cressilia 169hp-139hp. Cressilia used Psyshock! The Foe's Articuno Fainted!

9th-35th turn: Just when I thought I had another match won, the Foe's Latias goes first and uses Rest! As the match goes on, the Foe's Latias also has Calm Mind. So the 600 base, female psychic ubers duke it out for over 25 turns, Psycho shift burn, series of Psyshocks, Foe used Rest! Series of Dragon Pulse, Moon Light.

Eventually the opponent prevails due to my continual burn damage and 8 pp Moon Light. Obviously, this was a bold natured Latias; which was a perfect weapon against my team. I'll go as far as to say that the entire team was set up to shut mine down. Sash Landorus (fastest 600 ground uber next to Garchomp). Eruption resistent moltres, Chomp owning Articuno (whom was also defense natured to take that Expert Belt Rock Slide), and a stall based Latias. Like always, for the past seven years since Emerald Battle Frontier has been out, the computer has to form a counter for your team and cheat with criticals and misses to win. Nevertheless, I am proud of this complete sun team. They will return in Pokemon Black 2 & White 2 to score an even higher record streak.

[Battle-Tower Challenger]

I'm having quiet fun at doubles, reaching a record of 227 with a strict aggressive build.

Now I want to go more creative and I have a few ideas.

After looking at the Record List on the OP, I was surprised there weren't more Sun-Teams. I think i will give Cherrim a shot for a Sunteam in the future.
Also, Hail is not as popular which is surprising because spamming Blizzard is pretty awesome, especially with the Hax: 30% Freezes and Snow Cloak Users sounds pretty good.

[Cradily]

Originally Posted by Fat Battle-Tower Challenger

I'm having quiet fun at doubles, reaching a record of 227 with a strict aggressive build.

Now I want to go more creative and I have a few ideas.

After looking at the Record List on the OP, I was surprised there weren't more Sun-Teams. I think i will give Cherrim a shot for a Sunteam in the future.
Also, Hail is not as popular which is surprising because spamming Blizzard is pretty awesome, especially with the Hax: 30% Freezes and Snow Cloak Users sounds pretty good.

The reason sun is not up there because sun teams usually hit walls when legendaries show up. They just don't have the typing to knock them out. Effective teams weren't developed as early or easily like rain teams were when this all started.

[Stay Gold]

@Battle Tower Challenger

Hail's probably not widely used due to the small amount of hail abusers, coupled withthe fact that every hail abuser is an Ice-type, and even with secondary typing, there are many repeated weaknesses, compared to other weather such as rain where theres a variety of abusers that have solid defensive and offensive coverage. Also, assuming you use Abomasnow to introduce hail to the field, it's really not that great of a pokemon.

[NoCheese]

Originally Posted by Fat Battle-Tower Challenger

Also, Hail is not as popular which is surprising because spamming Blizzard is pretty awesome, especially with the Hax: 30% Freezes and Snow Cloak Users sounds pretty good.

The freeze chance on Blizzard is only 10 percent, not 30 percent. But 100 percent accurate Blizzards in the hail are still fun.

[Stay Gold]

Dang, just had my first decent Doubles streak end at 101

Zapdos@Expert Belt
Modest Nature
EVs:4 HP, 252 Sp Atk, 252 Speed
-Heat Wave
-Thunderbolt
-HP Ice
-Protect

Terrakion@Choice Band
Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
-Rock Slide
-Earthquake
-X-Scissor
-Sacred Sword

Latios@Life Orb
Timid Nature
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Sp Atk, 252 Speed
-Dragon Pulse
-Psychic
-Energy Ball
-Thunderbolt

Scizor@Leftovers
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 Sp Def
-Swords Dance
-Bug Bite
-Bullet Punch
-Superpower

So, time for my first write up. This team all started when I realized that Zapdos learns Heat Wave (Gen 4 tutor) and that its actually a fantastic pokemon. I immediately wated to use its flying type to my advantage by pairing it with a EQ/Rock Slider, and Terrakion quickly came across as one of Zapdos' best potenetial partners. I have to say, I was amazed by the performance of the Zapdos/Terrakion duo leading battles off. Both have great power, speed, decent bulk, and fantastic multi-opponent-hitting moves. There were so many battles along the way that only lasted 2 turns, battles go veryfast with these guys up front. Another bonus I noticed about this leading duo that's a nice small perk is its ability to deal with opponents using multi-hit moves, given that at least one resists/is immune to Rock Slide/EQ/Explosion.

I also really love the two Pokes sitting in the back. Latios, being the boss that he is, can pretty much always switch in on attacks aimied at Terrakion, given their great defensive synergy. Latios is an excellent clean-up teammate, utilizing ridiculous power, speed and coverage. Scizor is obviously pretty standard, and provides a crucial Ice and Dragon type resistance. Swords Dance was only used once the entire 101 battles, it could have been replaced with Protect or something.

Overall, I'm in love with this team, and even though my goal was 100 battles, I'm a little disappointed now that I see this team could go so much farther. Some problems, or at least annoyances, for me included fast Psychic types (Espeon, Starmie, Alakazam, etc), and of course legendary trainers, specifically Raikou. My streak almost ended at 97 when a Scarfed Heatran alongside Entei used Flash Cannon and threw me for a loop, but luckily Terrakion held on with 15 Hp to bust off an EQ.

Of course, I soon after lost to a legendary team. It started off with Regirock and Air Balloon Raikou (I hate Raikou, and hed given me trouble in many previous battles). I tried to RS with Terrakion, but a crit from Thunder put Terrakion away, and I just used Heatwave to damage Raikou and scratch Regirock, who used Rock Polish. I sent Scizor to try to Bullet Punch Regi, but soon after 2 rock slides and Thunders I was down to just Latios. I realized Raikou couldnt touch me when he used Extrasensory, so I KOed Regi and planned to focus on his next partner who turned out to be Latios. Next turn I flinched from Extrasensory and it was all over.

I guess I'm done with doubles for now, time to work on my singles streak, I have a few things planned ;)

[Level 51]

Has anyone ever tried a dual intimidate strategy on the Subway Super Doubles Line? In theory, it should take advantage of the AI's stupidity and cripple their physical attackers. Then a few Calm Minds/Quiver Dances can take care of the rest.

Just wondering if this sounds feasible.

[Battle-Tower Challenger]

@ atsync: Seeing how you love Emolga, it reminds me of my favourite Luvdisc. While Emolga is obvously better than disc, both are weak, very weak. But for the fun, who cares?
Now it's even possible to run 3 Emolgas in Singles! Just use Zorua, Zoruark and Emolga.
Just for the lols.
Luvdisc team go go!!

@ NoCheese: thx for the correction.

@Level 51: I tried a team full of 4 Intimidate users. But that was just for fun, using Gyarados, Mawile, Luxray and Masquerain. Mawile turned out to be pretty good because of his Steel typing and often succesfull Sub-punches. Substitude works well with intimidate. Didn't use Calm Mind and QD but i can see your point. After all i do not think an intimidating strategy is good, because of crits, super effective hits, etc. Might still work with good pokemons, though.

[Chinese Dood]

I haven't tried a full team of Intimidators, but I did try with 3 before I think, but not in Subway (it was in Gen 4 Battle Facilities). It did ok. I think I recall it being not such a good matchup against fast special attackers like Raikou and Latios. Not too surprising since the best Intimidators in Gen 4 are like Salamence, Gyarados, and Staraptor (I didn't use a Salamence though. I think I used a Luxray).

I would imagine that for Gen V, you'd definitely want something that can OHKO Defiant Bisharp. Fortunately, plenty of Intimidators can do that (Staraptor/salamence have their fighting moves, Arcanine can Fire move or close combat, or double quake with salamence/gyarados even).

[atsync]

Just thought I should update, I'm using the tailwind I posted on the previous page. Well, not exactly that team. I'm using Tornadus/Infernape/Hydreigon/mystery water type. I won't share what that last pokemon is until I'm ready to do a proper write-up (hint: it isn't Gyarados).

It has been going nicely and most battles are quick and easy. I remember lolnub saying that Tailwind teams are better than Trick Room teams because Tailwind teams are less reliant in their gimmick. Having used both I completely agree. Tailwind isn't even used that often because my leads are so fast and powerful that they usually cope just fine.

The game loves throwing legendary teams at me though. They take a lot out of me since I have to actually THINK about what I'm doing and one wrong move can cost you the match.

I made 1 attempt with my current set-up and made it to 84 wins easily before losing to a legendary team (it was the first match of the day which sucks). Bad misplay turn 1 where I tried to get tricky and Taunted Regigigas to prevent it starting its evasion crap. Ended up losing Tornadus turn 1 without setting up tailwind, and one of the back-ups was Specs Latios which tore my team to shreds. The annoying thing though was that Regigigas ended up using Thunder on my Infernape anyway so Taunt didn't really help much...

Restarted and did 21 battles in less than an hour which is cool. May do some more later today.

In regards to dual Intimidate leads, I remember when I was trying to come up with the most gimmicky doubles teams and thought of using Skill Swap Intimidate Stantler + Intimidate partner. It abuses the fact that abilities reactivate after they are swapped (I think this is new to 5th gen), so basically the opponents would be at -2 attack from the start, and then both Intimidates would reactivate again after being swapped leaving the opponents at -4 attack! It's a stupid idea though, and it would never work consistently enough to bother with.

Still, I think dual Intimidate leads could be good. Even if you don't actually abuse the stat drops with Calm Mind/Quiver Dance, nerfing opponents from the start like that can only be a good thing (of course, it wouldn't help against special attackers or Clear Body).