Determining a standard for the Related Moves section

[Oglemi*]

Hey guys,

For our Items/Moves/Abilities project, we have a section for all of the moves entitled "Related Moves."

The problem is, it seems everybody is confused on what to actually put here.

So what do you guys want to see?

Do you want to see only moves that are exact equivalents such as Water Gun to Ember and Fire Blast to Hydro Pump?

Or do you guys want us to also list more reliable/power alternatives like listing Flamethrower to Fire Blast or Surf to Water Gun?

Here are some examples that we have onsite right now:

An example of the former:

Earth Power

<h2>Related Moves</h2>
<p>Bug Buzz is a Bug-type equivalent.</p>
<p>Psychic is a Psychic-type equivalent.</p>

And an example of the latter:

Flame Charge

<h2>Related Moves</h2>
<p>Flamethrower is a more powerful alternative for special attackers if a Speed boost is unneeded.</p>
<p>Fire Blast is a more powerful but less accurate alternative for special attackers if a Speed boost is unneeded.</p>



Also to note is that right now if a move doesn't have any related moves, like Gravity, then we omit the section entirely.

What do you guys think?

[NatGeo]

Just a thought but when I go by related moves I just think of the ones that have the same thing except for a minor thing like typing or an effect. I just go by the Bulbapedia lists for each move's related ones and I think I'm not the only one who does!

[barry4ever]

Definitely the former. Going by the latter example is actually kinda insane, since if Flamethrower (Special) is related to Flame Charge (physical) then practically every offensive Fire move is related to one another. Similarly for every type. o_0

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Former is boring af, latter is good but should be resitricted to close similarities, i.e. Fire Blast - Lava Plume is about the extent it should go

[kokoloko*]

Agreeing with Texas. If people are looking at the related moves section its likely because they wanna see what else they can use on a certain Pokemon. The latter provides that information much more often.

Although I suppose they should be looking at that Pokemon's analysis if that's the case. Meh, whatever; the latter is still more relevant imo.

[Oglemi*]

I guess then the question for the people that are for the latter option would be:

Would you list Earthquake as a Related Move for Earth Power? Even though one is special and the other physical, they both serve basically the same purpose on a moveset, and are the most used Ground-type attacks along with HP Ground.

Remember, we can't be Pokemon specific when we do these.

Also, how far are you willing to go with the Related Moves? Is there a barrier when you'd stop listing certain moves? Such as, would you list Surf and Hydro Pump as Related Moves to Water Pulse, even though there's a drastic power difference between the two? What about Waterfall?

[TheMantyke]

Though I love how simple the former is to write and research, I really don't think it has much purpose beyond giving the reader a bit of trivia when it's obvious that a move is nearly a complete clone of another. I'd say the latter is the way to go, but that raises the question of where exactly do we stop and say that these moves are the one we're listing as related.

A possible solution is to just restrain moves not by their type or their base power but by their purpose. As an example, I'll use Flame Charge. Since its primary purpose isn't to attack the opponent, I wouldn't even mention Flamethrower or Fire Blast, but instead mention options like Agility, Rock Polish, and Gear Shift. Since the related moves would be rooted in purpose and not similarity to other moves that may be of a different type, I think that grouping physical and special attacking moves like Earthquake and Earth Power would be the way to go since they both serve a similar purpose. We've already done this for moves like the entry hazards and it looks much nicer than listing Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt everytime a move has 95 base power and an extra effect.

[sirndpt]

(ugh kinda ninja'd)

I'd rather have strict equivalents if only because having every possible related move would get very messy very quickly:

eg with Flame Charge, you'd have not only Flamethrower and Fire Blast, but also Lava Plume, Overheat, Heat Wave? plus, stuff like Flare Blitz, Fire Punch and Fire Fang are arguably even more 'related' because they're physical fire attacks, as opposed to special ones. sorry, I don't mean to throw anyone under the bus, but if you're looking for alternatives to use on a single poke, it's quite likely you'd be focusing on one attacking stat imo!

Originally Posted by Fat op

Or do you guys want us to also list more reliable/power alternatives

just to clarify, is it an either/ or choice between the two, or would you consider listing both kinds of related moves?



eta:

Originally Posted by Fat TheMantyke

As an example, I'll use Flame Charge. Since its primary purpose isn't to attack the opponent, I wouldn't even mention Flamethrower or Fire Blast, but instead mention options like Agility, Rock Polish, and Gear Shift.

how would you define "primary purpose" though, especially for moves that are used both for coverage and their secondary effect, like Fiery Dance and Charge Beam?

[Oglemi*]

Originally Posted by Fat sirndpt

just to clarify, is it an either/ or choice between the two, or would you consider listing both kinds of related moves?

If we decide on the latter we would list both; so no matter what the former is going to be done.

The problem is we need to decide what exactly to list with the latter if people want it.

[sirndpt]

just another thought: it's all well and good to say that information like Bug Buzz and Earth Power have the same Base Power isn't very helpful in competitive play, but imo it's pretty likely that not everyone who comes to the moves info section is looking for competitive help (why would you go there for it anyway?). idk, some could just be looking for a list of all the priority moves, two-turn charge moves, physical Fire-type moves, and other such trivia. as long as we have people willing to write it, on second thoughts, more information can't ever really be a bad thing

[V0x]

I don't know about mildly competitive moves, but for rather useless ones such as Ember I think we should list the more powerful alternatives. For example, "Flamethrower is a more powerful alternative / special Fire-type move." (Also, in this case don't use equivalent because more powerful doesn't really imply an equivalent).

[Stalfos]

hi i'm helping with this project so i guess i should post!

Strict equivalents: I agree with the general consensus on IRC that these aren't really anything more than pointless bits of trivia; if I'm looking up Flamethrower, I'm not doing so out of an interest in random 95 BP moves lol. However, considering these are already onsite for a lot of moves and their presence isn't harming anything, I don't think there's much point in taking the time to go through and remove them all. In my opinion, the time it would take to do that would be much better spent fixing up outdated content.

More reliable/powerful alternatives: I definitely support listing better alternatives to shitty moves like Ember and Water Gun (I'd put Water Pulse in this category too, as if a Pokemon learns Surf, Scald, or Hydro Pump there's no good reason for it to ever use Water Pulse). I'm also a fan of listing stuff like Fire Blast and Overheat as more powerful but less reliable alternatives to Flamethrower (and Flamethrower as a weaker but more reliable alternative to Fire Blast). However, I think that's as far as we should take it; I'm personally against listing physical moves as "physical alternatives" to special moves (so no, I would not put Earthquake as a related move to Earth Power), and I definitely don't like Flame Charge's current RM section; other than typing, Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Flame Charge have nothing in common at all lol. (for the record I support removing the RM section from Flame Charge entirely)

Just my opinions; feel free to take them or leave them!

[bugmaniacbob]

sigh

I thought I made it perfectly clear, apparently not. Still, if people aren't in agreement with what should go there...

The Related Moves section is designed to house all of equivalents, variants, and alternatives.

Equivalents are those moves that are exactly the same save for a typing change. Examples are Seed Bomb and Strength.

Variants are those moves that have similar mechanics but have slightly different properties anywhere, for example in effect, Base Power, or accuracy. Examples include Flamethrower and Thunderbolt, or maybe Seed Bomb and Iron Head. These should be kept quite strict, however.

Alternatives are those moves that, were the Pokemon to happen to have both of them, then they would be able to consider one over the other for competitive reasons. This does not include "physical variants" - it ought to be assumed that said Pokemon is using a physical/special move for a reason. This also should not include "legendary exclusives". Examples include Seed Bomb and Leaf Blade. You also ought to include Power Whip and Bullet Seed in here.

So, for a move such as Lava Plume:

<h2>Related Moves</h2>
<p>Scald is a Water-type equivalent.</p>
<p>Discharge is an Electric-type variant with a 30% chance to paralyze the target.</p>
<p>Poison Jab is a physical Poison-type variant with a 30% chance to poison the target.</p>
<p>Flamethrower is a more powerful option, with only a 10% chance to burn the target.</p>
<p>Fire Blast is a much more powerful but less accurate option, with only a 10% chance to burn the target.</p>

(Yeah I know that's not what's actually on-site, but)

Most of the Related Moves sections on-site don't conform to this, however. If people want to change the way this section is done (and I will be honest, the equivalents and variants are rather useless information) then that's fine, as most of the entries on-site will need changing anyway.

That was the intention for the section, anyway. If people want it changed badly, then so be it. It's not one of my priorities at the moment, though.

[Furai]

I'm with bmb on this one. When I look at the related moves section, what I seek is what other moves are similar to the move I am looking at. Mostly I'm looking for the effect. Just like Frost Breath and Storm Throw, both have 100% critical hit ratio -- they are related.

[eric the espeon]

mm.. After initially thinking the latter made sense.. I've changed my mind. While the information in the latter would be more useful to many people, it seems much more appropriate for the competitive use section than the related moves section (and there should be plenty of links to moves in the competitive use section!). Including competitive-only similarities in related moves is mixing two types of information with no distinction, devaluing both, and is redundant with a well done competitive use section anyway. Related moves can and should be objective. Also doing the former opens up this can of worms: If Water Gun is related to Surf, is Surf related to Water Gun. Linking to all offensive water moves from Surf would be annoying and useless, linking only one way would be inconsistent.

[Oglemi*]

OK, so here's a kind of format to follow for the Related Moves section, post if you agree/disagree:

List all direct equivalents as shown above in bmb's post: i.e. Absorb and Leech Life are equivalents, as are Seed Bomb and Strength. What makes something an equivalent is: they have to have the same effect and same Base Power, same PP not needed.

List all direct variants as shown in bmb's post: Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are variants, as are Seed Bomb and Iron Head. What makes something a variant is the two moves need to have the same Base Power and same accuracy OR they need to have the same effect, same PP not needed.

List only ONE alternative (this is where I differ from bmb). The following are what you should use as they alternatives. Use only an alternative of the same type and the same attacking side (physical or special). These were chosen for their relatively high Base Power, wide distribution, and relevance to metagames across the board. I'm willing to budge on some of them, if people have a problem with any of the following:

Bug Physical: X-Scissor
Bug Special: Bug Buzz

Dark Physical: Crunch
Dark Special: Dark Pulse

Dragon Physical: Dragon Claw
Dragon Special: Dragon Pulse

Electric Physical: Wild Charge
Electric Special: Thunderbolt

Fighting Physical: Close Combat
Fighting Special: Focus Blast

Fire Physical: Flare Blitz
Fire Special: Flamethrower

Flying Physical: Brave Bird
Flying Special: Air Slash

Ghost Physical: Shadow Claw
Ghost Special: Shadow Ball

Grass Physical: Seed Bomb
Grass Special: Giga Drain

Ground Physical: Earthquake
Ground Special: Earth Power

Ice Physical: Ice Punch
Ice Special: Ice Beam

Normal Physical: Return
Normal Special: Hyper Voice

Poison Physical: Poison Jab
Poison Special: Sludge Bomb

Psychic Physical: Zen Headbutt
Psychic Special: Psychic

Rock Physical: Stone Edge
Rock Special: Power Gem

Steel Physical: Iron Head
Steel Special: Flash Cannon

Water Physical: Waterfall
Water Special: Surf


Finally, here's an example of how I envision a final Related Moves section to look:

Icy Wind
<h2>Related Moves</h2>
<p>Electroweb is an Electric-type equivalent.</p>
<p>Glaciate is a stronger variant.</p>
<p>String Shot is a non-damaging Bug-type variant.</p>
<p>Ice Beam is a stronger alternative.</p>

The reason Low Sweep, Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Mud Shot, and Scary Face are not listed is because they do not have the same effect in doubles and triples as Icy Wind does, while Electroweb, Glaciate, and String Shot do. The former three are also physical attacks.

However, we can go the other route and list all of them. But then that leaves the question as to just how many moves do we want to list here, or are there moves that should take precedent over others? I feel we should keep this section concise and specific, and therefore less confusing.

What do you guys think?

[Jellicent*]

Here's what I would say makes a move related:

Same effect and BP, such as Volt Switch and U-turn = related. They accomplish the same effect, but are type variants of each other. Someone more interested in the effect than the typing will want to know alternatives.

Same BP and accuracy, but different type, such as Fire Blast and Hydro Pump = unrelated. Especially if they have different effects, but even if they both lack effects, they don't have much relevance to one another. They're just similar attacks of different types.

Same type and either both physical or both special, such as Flamethrower and Fire Blast = related. Varying BP, accuracy, and likelihood of effect make moves such as these easily interchangeable on a set, assuming the Pokemon has access to both. Because their differences are more of a matter of preference than anything else, they're certainly related.

Same type, one special and the other physical, such as X-Scissor and Bug Buzz = unrelated. They're used by different types of sweepers and aren't really interchangeable. An exception would if it has the same effect and BP, such as Horn Leech and Giga Drain, as the effect is the real draw to these moves.

Basically, if the BP and effect are the same, such as Lava Plume and Scald, they're related. If one's a stronger or more accurate alternative of the same type, such as Ice Beam and Blizzard, they're related. Otherwise, we probably don't really need to list it.

[V0x]

In Oggle's example, I don't think String Shot should be there. While the effect is the same, it doesn't deal damage like the others do, which I think is one of the big categories we should be "relating" other moves to. Damage, type, then effect, or something like that.

[Oglemi*]

Originally Posted by Fat Jellicent

Same type and either both physical or both special, such as Flamethrower and Fire Blast = related. Varying BP, accuracy, and likelihood of effect make moves such as these easily interchangeable on a set, assuming the Pokemon has access to both. Because their differences are more of a matter of preference than anything else, they're certainly related.

This is where it gets tricky though. For example Ember, what do we want to list for it with this description? All of Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Heat Wave, Lava Plume, etc? Or just one alternative?

Same BP and accuracy, but different type, such as Fire Blast and Hydro Pump = unrelated. Especially if they have different effects, but even if they both lack effects, they don't have much relevance to one another. They're just similar attacks of different types.

I can live with dropping this, since that would cut down on the size of the section.

[Jellicent*]

For Ember, I would definitely list Flamethrower. It has the exact same accuracy and likelihood of effect, but a much higher BP. If at any time you can use Flamethrower over Ember, it is superior.

That said, if someone is seriously considering Ember, it can't hurt to add in links to Fire Blast and company as well, as they can probably use all the help they can get. Anyone with a decent grasp of competitive play will rarely click on Ember, so it's not like they'll mind the extra clutter from a few links.

[Amarillo]

All these bolded names! I'm not really a regular here, but:

Originally Posted by Fat Jellicent

Same effect and BP, such as Volt Switch and U-turn = related. They accomplish the same effect, but are type variants of each other. Someone more interested in the effect than the typing will want to know alternatives.

So how far would these 'effects' go? Volt Switch and U-turn deal with effects that will happen 100% of the time. They are obviously related. I doubt that anyone really would object to having Lava Plume and Scald: they are a bit less powerful options with the same 30% chance to Burn. They have the same BP, effect, but different typing. But now, would Dark Pulse and Waterfall be put into 'related'? I'm sure if anyone looked at Waterfall, they would do so because of its attacking ability, not its 20% (albeit annoying to face) flinch rate. Surely, having Bug Buzz and Earth Power and stuff like that as related just because of the 10% Special Defense drop would be ridiculous, as the consensus at the moment seems to say that we shouldn't necessarily put moves as related just because they have that same 90 Base Power. Would these 'effects' only come into play with 30% or higher effects?

[Jellicent*]

I can see a 30% chance or higher being a decent benchmark, if that's a concern, as in those instances, the effect is a major factor in why that move is being used. However, if the moves are of the same type and both special/physical, such as Lava Plume and Flamethrower, then they'd also be related, as the likeliness of effect, accuracy, and Base Power all contribute to why the one move would be chosen over the other.

So, Lava Plume should be related to both Scald and Flamethrower. Scald should not be related to Flamethrower, however.

[Oglemi*]

So Jellicent, give us an example of a related moves section for the following moves:

Ember
U-turn
Assurance
Avalanche

I'll work from what you give us and create a standard from there.

[Jellicent*]

Ember
- Flamethrower is a more powerful version of this move
- Fire Blast is a less accurate but more powerful alternative
- Lava Plume is a more powerful version with a higher chance to burn

U-turn
- Volt Switch is an Electric-type equivalent

Assurance
- Payback has the same Base Power, but its power doubles if the opponent moves first
- Crunch is a more powerful alternative with a chance of lowering the opponent's Defense

Avalanche
- Revenge is a Fighting-type equivalent
- Ice Punch is a more powerful alternative with normal priority and a chance to freeze
- Icicle Crash is an even more powerful alternative with normal priority and a chance to flinch, but lower accuracy
- Payback is a similar Dark-type attack with normal priority and lower Base Power


On a somewhat related note, I've noticed that the Related Moves sections don't contain direct links, only the related moves' names. I don't know if adding links would be more trouble than it's worth, but if it's simple enough to do, I think it would be a convenient addition ^.^

(If it's something that would be a lot of unnecessary grunt work, I'll probably add in links for them all some day that I have waaay too much free time, if someone's up for caching it all >.>)

[Oglemi*]

OK I can deal with the examples that you gave. The only question that I have is why you didn't list X-Scissor or Megahorn as an alternative to U-turn.