"Checks and Counters" Project

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Conflict

And then you discover that Fireblast does ~50% upwards to Volcarona when you switch it in.....

Not all Ninetales are offensive, and this is why i said check/counter...

[Conflict]

SDef-Ninetales Flamethrower vs. Bulky QD Volcarona: 124-147 (33.42 - 39.62%) - yeah not much, set-up possible.

SDef-Ninetales Fireblast vs. Bulky QD Volcarona: Fire Blast: 156-184 (42.04 - 49.59%) - hmmm 3hko but can 2hko with 1 Layer of Spikes.

Now consider that it isnt likely that Volcarona will be at 100% for the whole match and that many SDef-Ninetales carry Roar. Great 'counter' you got there. Volcarona can set up vs Ninetales in a pinch but definitely doesnt deserve a mention in Ninetales Checks&Counter section. Its more likely that Ninetales 'checks' Volcarona.....

[alexwolf]

^above

50% of all Ninetales use Flamethrower according to the usage statistics of April, and 40% of all Ninetales run Timid as their nature. 252 SpA Timid Ninetales using Flamethrower vs BulkyRona in sun : 43.66 - 51.75%. This is never a 2hko after lefties, and don't bring hazards into the argument, 'cause we all know that a good Volcarona team will have a solution for this. And of 'course Volcarona will be at full health, since it is supposed to be an end game sweeper right? Which means that you don't bring it out, unless you know that you can sweep.

You also mentioned Roar, which only 18% of all Ninetales run, so i think we can all agree that Volcarona is undeniably a check, since it can easily set-up on Roar-less Ninetales if it comes in for free, and could be a counter in some certain situations, such as Roar-less defensive Ninetales, and against offensive Flamethrower Ninetales with no hazards up.

Anyway i don't really know why are we even doing this conversation, since i think that everyone knows that Volcarona is a check/counter to Ninetales.

[Conflict]

So that means Volcarona 'counters' Ninetales in 32% of all cases (50% run Fthrower and of these 18% run Roar = 32%; and i didnt even include Ninetales with HP[Rock]). So nowadays we label something as a counter if it works in 1/3 of all cases? I dont think so.
Volcarona is not a reliable answer for Ninetales because it loses ~66% of the time so we cant label it as a counter or a check.

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Anyway i don't really know why are we even doing this conversation, since i think that everyone knows that Volcarona is a check/counter to Ninetales.

Maybe just maybe your opinion differs from the one i (and possibly others) have? I think switching Volcarona into Ninetales is a pretty suboptimal action because it carries more risks than rewards. Surely you can get away with it in specific circumstances but we cant assume these in an theorethical analysis. Just as you can get away with Dragonite setting up in the face of a Mon with an supereffective attack. I think you can agree that Dragonite isnt a counter to for example Tyranitar? Because under the conditions you just set we could label Dragonite as a counter as long as Multiscale is intact and TTar doesnt have Roar or Stone Edge or even if it has Stone Edge if it doesnt carry Choice Band, Life Orb or Expert Belt.....
In the same vein Volcarona 'counters' Ninetales if it doesnt have Fireblast, Roar, HP[Rock] (or Toxic) or carries one of the items Life Orb, Expert Belt, Wise Glasses, Charcoal. This makes the analysis kinda lenghty and complicated - something we should avoid if possible.
Did i get the point across?

[alexwolf]

First of all Bulky Rona is a check to Ninetales no matter how you see it. Which means that if Volcarona comes in for free against Ninetales, it will set-up on it 63,7% of the time (17,8% is Roar's usage, and 18,5% is Toxic's usage, which means that at best their combined usage will be 36,3%). And this is only accounting for the most popular set, BulkyRona, as ChestoRest can set-up on every Ninetales that lack Roar, if it comes in for free.

So now that we established that Volcarona is a check, let's see the counter part...

First of all you ask me since when do we mention something as a counter, if it is a counter only x% of the time. And i answer to you that we do it if the circumstances in which the counter works are realistic. For example, BulkyRona is a counter to any offensive Timid Volcarona without Fire Blast, and ChestoRest Volcarona is a counter to any offensive Timid Volcarona without Fire Blast, and to Roar-less defensive variants. These are all realistic scenarios that can easily happen. When you begin the match for example, lure a fire attack from Ninetales, and check the damage output. If it is Flamethrower and not Modest, then congrats, your BulkyRona can set-up on it. Same goes for defensive Ninetales, where you only have to worry about Toxic if you have BulkyRona (even if it Roar's you out, nothing happens to you, you are just unable to set-up on it). So i don't see where is the problem in informing the readers that they can counter some Ninetales with their Volcarona...

In the c&c section of Terrakion it mentions Claydol as a counter, when CB Terrakion 2hkoes with X-Scissor. Why? To inform the user about certain counters that can work if some certain conditions (not unlikely conditions that happen only 2% of the time of 'course are met). So to me if Volcarona counters Ninetales 33% of the time, it is certainly a reason to be mentioned.

Finally many pokes are mentioned as counters to x poke, if said poke is lacking some moves. So i don't see any reason not to mention that BulkyRona is a counter to any non Fire Blast, non Toxic Ninetales (HP Rock is simply too rare to get a mention imo).

[Nachos]

Since twash left, Checks & Counters has been relatively unorganized. We're moving a bit slow, but we've been made some good progress. So to get things back on track, I'll be PMing you all soon within the next couple of days to see how things are and where we all stand.

In the meanwhile I have redone Jellicent. Original was OK, but I've added more detail.

Current Jellicent

---

Grass-types can usually switch in to Jellicent without being threatened. Celebi and Shaymin both have Natural Cure, so they don't care about Will-O-Wisp or a burn from Scald. If Breloom is able to activate its Toxic Orb, it can often threaten Jellicent. However, it must beware of Hex or Ice Beam because of its low Special Defense. Virizion can't shrug off a burn like the other three can, but will fare very well against more offensive Jellicent as it can switch into most of its moves with relative ease and force Jellicent out with Giga Drain.
Rotom-W can deal quite a bit of damage to Jellicent, and it resists Surf and Scald. Jolteon can also be a threat if it can switch in at the right time or come in to revenge kill. Choice Band Tyranitar puts Jellicent in a checkmate position, as it can use Pursuit if Jellicent is predicted to flee. Ferrothorn also can threaten with Power Whip. However, both of these Pokemon must watch out for an aptly-timed burn. Latias is typically manageable, but should it have Calm Mind and Refresh, it will be able to set up. Sun is a huge inconvenience to Jellicent, as it not only weakens its STAB move of choice, but limits its ability to take on threats such as Volcarona and Venusaur.

Virizion is a pretty good counter. Calm Mind versions don’t mind Will-O-Wisp and can respond with Giga Drain, and Ice Beam isn't fatal due to Virizion's high Special Defense. Getting Taunted on the switch in means you can’t set up on Jellicent though, so bear that in mind. Celebi and Breloom are also pretty good with dealing with Jellicent, just watch out for the occasional Shadow Ball regarding Celebi, and getting burned before Toxic Heal is activated with Breloom. The rare Ice Beam should be taken into account before switching in Breloom carelessly. Tyranitar is similar to Breloom in that it needs to avoid getting burnt, but can blow Jellicent out of the water with a Choice Banded Crunch, or Pursuit should it decide to switch out. Ferrothorn sounds like a good idea, but it won’t be beating Jellicent that carry Taunt and Will-O-Wisp, and most of them do. Electric attacks from Rotom-W and Jolteon will cause problems. Take note that you’ll need Thunderbolt or Thunder to deal significant damage to Jellicent, Volt Switch doesn’t have the power to KO Jellicent meaning it can just heal itself with Recover easily. Putting Thunder on Pokemon like Starmie who Jellicent usually comes in on is a good idea, but you should only really do so if you’re running a rain team, otherwise stick with Thunderbolt. Gengar can take a Scald and deal big damage with Shadow Ball.

Seeing as Jellicent’s main job is to come in and usually spinblock and take resisted hits, it’s going to want to constantly be at high health. Toxic helps with ruining that plan, and by putting it on something like Heatran, Gliscor or Tentacruel which Jellicent loves to switch on is really going to be a big thorn in the opponent’s side. Toxic Spikes and Spikes will cause problems as well.


ideas?

[Nachos]

Okay so the gentlemen helping me with this project are going to be Harsha, Iconic, Jrrrrrrr, Pocket and SkyNet.

Onto what we actually need done that's been posted, here's a list:

• Alakazam needs to have someone check over it, and after that have some GP it
• Ninetales is the same as Alakazam
• The Hydregion C&C section that Stone posted needs to be revamped with Pocket's changes, found here and here. Someone can rewrite the set if they wish.
  
• Espeon is the same as Alakazam and Ninetales
• Jellicent is the same as ones I mentioned earlier

I'll have a look at them either tonight or sometime tomorrow, in the meanwhile I've made a shoddy list of what I feel needs to be updated, with my comments for some of them. Agree/disagree, or add what other Pokemon you think need to be updated:

• Chansey - Needs updating with Blissey's checks and counters included mostly, as they're very similar. As Chansey might be falling to UU soon, this isn't top priority. I imagine that it'll fluctuate between OU and UU though, and will need to be updated if becomes BL.
• Donphan - Just needs a quick Ferrothorn mention that can be added any time via the SCMS
• Ferrothorn - I've put that it needs a Gliscor mention, Celebi possibly? Reuniclus and SubCM Jirachi setting up on it should be added. Hazards in general are also a pain.
• Forretress - Reuniclus setting up on it
• Jolteon - Blissey, Chansey, Swampert note removal. More stuff in general.
• Mamoswine
• Scrafty
• Toxicroak - Having Sand, and especially Sun up really puts a damper on it
• Venusaur
• Finally, Staraptor and Deoxys-D in BL could also get a revamp.

After this we'll be pretty much done, or near it anyway. Most other goods are at a decent standard, at the very least.

edit: this is on standby. no point updating stuff with the current bw2 rush.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

In the c&c section of Terrakion it mentions Claydol as a counter, when CB Terrakion 2hkoes with X-Scissor. Why? To inform the user about certain counters that can work if some certain conditions (not unlikely conditions that happen only 2% of the time of 'course are met). So to me if Volcarona counters Ninetales 33% of the time, it is certainly a reason to be mentioned.

A big reason Claydol is on there is because X-Scissor is only seen on Choice sets, meaning the only way Claydol is losing to Terrakion is if the person using Terrakion is predicting very well, somehow knows Claydol will show up, and uses X-Scissor. And even then, that's only the Choice Band set, so some other Pokemon can switch into the X-Scissor much easier than a STAB move, such as Salamence, Scizor, etc. and set up. For Ninetales, it doesn't need this prediction, so in that case if it doesn't predict right, it can go ahead and Toxic or Roar or Nasty Plot or something. I'm not saying Volcarona doesn't deal with Ninetales or anything (or vise-versa), but that's how I see it.

[Ernesto]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put it, but Chandelure's OU analysis mentions Porygon2, Snorlax and even Kingdra as checks/counters (three UU Pokés with OU analysis), but it doesn't mention Heatran. I understand that it's weak to its coverage moves, but so are the first two - heck, even Tyranitar, its greatest check, is doubly weak to HP Fighting. Is there a specific reason why Heatran doesn't warrant a mention? It does have to rely on Earth Power to hit it, but it takes less damage from HP Fighting than Tyranitar, so I think that should level the two...

[Shurtugal]

Just a quick question, but has Rotom-H had a revamp yet? With Genesect everywhere it might be good to update sets with the new threats, unless of course its already been done, just curious.

[PK Gaming]

locking

we don't need this anymore