(Gen 3) ADV OU Threat List *Onsite

[Mekkah**]

Yes, I agree, it's much worse on this metagame, but I think I deserve a place on that top 10 list.

itt M Dragon admits he is Snorlax

I like the Charizard-less list the way it is now, though still not too found of the Jirachi/Raikou spot. Maybe I'd shuffle the order around a little bit more.

[M Dragon]

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

itt M Dragon admits he is Snorlax

I like the Charizard-less list the way it is now, though still not too found of the Jirachi/Raikou spot. Maybe I'd shuffle the order around a little bit more.

forgot adding the -t lol

[Umby]

I want to update this (partially because it takes me a while to get over my own bias) but haven't really played/watched high profile matches recently to see any changes in the metagame in recent months.

Help.

[shrapn3l]

tyranitar
celebi
gengar
suicune
salamence
jirachi
dugtrio
snorlax
metagross
raikou or heracross or gyarados

i wasn't sure what to base it off of exactly so i just went with a compromise between usage and inherent power/versatility. i honestly think gyarados and heracross are incredibly underrated but they don't fit on teams as easily as some of the higher threats so it sort of makes sense that there are not represented as much i suppose. a lot of people are missing a gyarados counter these days though!!! the order of meta/lax/dugtrio might be wrong but they're at least ABOUT where they should be. i kinda wanted to fit starmie on the list somewhere but we'll say it's #11 ~_~

[Danilo]

tyranitar
celebi
gengar
suicune
snorlax
zapdos
salamence
dugtrio
jirachi
aerodactly

[Triangles]

TTar
Celebi
Cune
Gengar
Lax
Rachi
Duggy
Zapdos
Mence
Gyara

This is my personal view - considering that the word "threat" is flexible. It could mean something that is very much used as like, - a "utility counter", hardcore wall , or defensive pivot, - but not really something that puts the fear of God into a team, such as Pert, Skarm, Bliss, Dol, Clops, etc or even something like P2 or Saur. I would not call the aforementioned pokes "threats" - I would call them "counters to threats". But I've taken the word "threat" to mean something that actively offensively threatens the opposing team - can weaken counters, etc. This does not necessarily have to be a sweeper.

I chose the threats for varying reasons - some because of their versatility and unpredictability, such as Tyranitar - these days when switching your Pert into TTar you'll always scout for HP Grass with Protect/a switch as opposed to EQ'ing/Surfing/HPumping. TTar is what the meta revolves around - it really is. Personally I hardly ever use it, but hey, that's me.

I chose some things such as Dugtrio for simply being so good at what they do. While not being as versatile as the likes of TTar and Celebi, they are still extremely effective. You know what's coming when you see a Dugtrio and there's nothing you can do about it. To pick out a non-trapping example, there's Gyarados. You know what's coming when you see it - Taunt, Dragon Dance, HP Flying , EQ, occasionally Double-Edge over Taunt. You know you can fairly safely switch Zapdos into standard Gyara and come out the other end relatively unscathed, but Gyarados, with correct support, can plough through whole teams with correct support.

I nominated some things such as Suicune, Zapdos, Jirachi, because as well as being offensive powerhouses, they have decent bulk and can switch in. Take Suicune for example (the poke I nomianted at number 3) - while Suicune is an infamous wall, it also doubles up as a threatening Calm Mind sweeper that can stall some of its would-be counters to a boring death with Pressure. However, this is not to say that Suicune does not have its issues - it is damaged by the abundant sand and worn down by Spikes. In the right environment though - i.e. no weather, not much prior damage, all forms of CM Suicune, especially the underrated SubCM one are devastatingly powerful.

That's all I feel I need to say about my selection process - it's very difficult to rank pokes in ADV in a strict order - you are often comparing two completely different things with totally different roles.

[shrapn3l]

zapdos is both less common (according to usage stats) and less threatening than metagross (according to frightened trainers everywhere). really don't see it as a top 10 threat right now, but maybe you could but it at number 10 (just below metagross). it is a very useful pokemon defensively, but it has been seriously on the decline in usage (unless it has made a comeback and i am just unaware), and offensively, between celebi and blissey, and with curselax becoming a bit more common, it isn't having much of an impact usually even when it is used. the increased presence of offensive cune makes it a little less useful defensively as well imo. it's still good though, and more people should use it, but i wouldn't put it on the top ten rn

[CALLOUS]

Any respect I had for you as an ADV player is completely gone. Not having Celebi on this list is absolutely absurd. Ttar/Celebi/Gengar are the three best Pokemon in the generation. This thread makes me sick.

[meteor64]

Tyranitar
Celebi
Gengar
Jirachi
Metagross
Duggy
Salamence
Snorlax
Zapdos
Heracross

The top 3 shouldnt even be disputable IMO. TTar, Celebi and Gar are so ridiculously dominating and difficult to shut down. How Celebi isn't in the OP is completely beyond me...

The rest are just really good. The order to them isn't that specific, there's not a whole lot between them in terms of viability and threat level in my eyes- Jirachi is only slightly better than Hera, and the rest are kind of in the middle.

I wanted to stick Gyarados on here but there wasn't enough room. Suicune also.

[Umby]

Originally Posted by Fat CALLOUS

Any respect I had for you as an ADV player is completely gone. Not having Celebi on this list is absolutely absurd. Ttar/Celebi/Gengar are the three best Pokemon in the generation. This thread makes me sick.

Hence why I'm asking for opinions to help update the OP?

edit:

Originally Posted by Fat Hero Kid

I would break this threat into 2 parts. Top 10 offensive ADV OU threats, and Top 10 Defensive ADV OU threats. As most defensive ADV pokemon impose big threats on the ADV OU metagame also.

I overlooked this from when I first made the thread. What do you guys think?

Someone else will have to make a brief summary on Celebi, since I haven't been around lately to get trashed by it and therefore would be hard pressed to understand/explain how it's a top 3 threat. I won't contest such a popular opinion, but I'm unconvinced in my current mindset.

[meteor64]

Originally Posted by Fat Umby

Hence why I'm asking for opinions to help update the OP?

Originally Posted by Fat shrapn3l

tyranitar
celebi
gengar

Originally Posted by Fat Sir

tyranitar
celebi
gengar

Originally Posted by Fat Triangles

TTar
Celebi
Cune

Originally Posted by Fat meteor64

Tyranitar
Celebi
Gengar

opinionssssssssss

Celebi is a huge threat because its so ridiculously resilient and versatile. It can be defensive, offensive, and supportive all at once, and has access to a slew of viable moves that almost extend as far as TTars, AND it has instant recovery, AND doesn't give a shit about status thanks to Natural Cure. Things that can reliably 2HKO or OHKO it such as Mence, Heracross, Dugtrio, Gyara, and Aero all can't switch in on Psychics forever or even at all, so the list of things that actually reliably check Celebi is pretty much just Houndoom- even TTar can get pretty knocked up by HP Grass. And even then, if you attempt to Pursuit-trap it with Houndoom, Baton Pass Celebi can totally screw up your day by passing to Dugtrio or a special wall.

[Umby]

I'm waiting for more input before a full update. Top three seems to be pretty locked in, but I'm not gonna jump the gun just after a few posts. I want to take on the whole chunk at one time.

[shrapn3l]

celebi is good for a number of reasons. it is good in adv in part for the same reasons it was good in gsc (but definitely not to the same degree because it's not as bulky and the meta is more offensive overall. plus it has better counters now). because of its stats, its ability, natural cure, and its access to recover and excellent support moves like leech seed, heal bell, perish song, and reflect, it is a great defensive pokemon and team player. with leech seed it can deter major threats like suicune and snorlax from attempting to set up to sweep early in the game, as well as heal itself and its team mates. perish song makes it a good counter for the last-pokemon set up sweeper strategy, and a decent phazer in the meantime. the benefits of heal bell and reflect are obvious. its typing is a bit of a mixed bag defensively, providing it with some good resistances, such as to ground, water, and electric moves, but also some key weakness to fire, ice, flying, bug, and dark attacks which aren't too difficult to take advantage of. the weaknesses serve to balance it out to some degree, but it is still an excellent counter to pokemon like zapdos and swampert. the real trouble with celebi, though, is that it can impact the game to a similar or greater degree with an offensive set. calm mind makes it an even better special wall when included on a defensive set, but it can also tear through many standard tss teams, which utilize pokemon like gengar, skarmory, swampert, forretress, claydol, etc., with its base 100 speed and special attack, and a combination of giga drain/hp fire/psychic. even without EVs invested in its hp and defenses, it's bulk is substantial enough to let it set up rather easily and stick around for quite a while. additionally, celebi has access to what is arguably the best move in the game in baton pass, which makes it excellent on trapping teams, as it serves as a perfect lure to pokemon such as tyranitar and skarmory for magneton and dugtrio to take advantage of. its capabilities do not end there, however, as celebi is also capable of passing calm minds and even swords dances to pokemon that will have an even easier time sweeping like zapdos or metagross respectively. its incredible longevity and ability to completely tear through or shut down an opposing teams in a number of ways makes it difficult to counter and a major threat to the metagame.

too long?

[gene]

i don't think zapdos belongs here, it isn't much of an offensive threat. i still consider it the second best pokemon in the 3rd gen, but that's only because of its defensive sleep talk set.

my list would be something like

tyranitar
gengar
jirachi
salamence
aerodactyl
flygon
raikou
metagross
suicune
celebi

i'm not as worried about offensive versions of suicune and celebi as i am of jirachi. jirachi is also a huge threat even with a defensive bold max hp wish set.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat Umby

I tried Metal Sound Zapdos a long time ago, but don't remember it working effectively. Maybe I'll try it out again soon, but I won't be able to use it to my advantage against Regice.

When I first joined here, Metal Sound Zapdos was pretty popular. Obviously that was a long time ago though. People used to call it MS-Dos (like the program).

[M Dragon]

Top 10 threats in my opinion:

-Tyranitar
-Suicune
-Celebi
-Gengar
-Salamence
-Jirachi
-Metagross
-Snorlax
-Heracross
-Aerodactyl

Maybe raikou, but dugtrio is too common nowadays...
Dugtrio could also deserve a mention (it just traps and kills stuff though)

T-tar, Suicune and Celebi are top 3

[shrapn3l]

it can trap and kill half of the other threats on the list though ~_~ if you put it over aero our lists are practically the same!

[Umby]

So, how about:

Tyranitar
Gengar
Celebi
Jirachi
Suicune
Snorlax
Salamence

Then some order of three of Aerodactyl, Metagross, Heracross, Dugtrio, and Zapdos?

Also, what was the consensus on making a separate list for "defensive threats?"

[JabbaTheGriffin*]

Dugtrio NEEDS to be in the top 10 just because if you don't keep it in your mind with team building you could end up with a team that gets 4/6 destroyed by duggy. I've fallen victim to that quite a bit.

My top 10 nowadays is (in no specific order yet):
Tyranitar
Dugtrio
Celebi
Jirachi
Salamence
Suicune
Swampert
Blissey
Forretress
Gengar

If I were to take out the defensive threats (I think Swampert is a bigger threat to an unprepared team than say Heracross), I'd replace the 3 with raikou, metagross, and maybe aero. I really don't think they're that threatening in recent versions of the metagame though. Honestly you can just take the 10 i have up there and make several great teams out of it. The metagame has unfortunately become much more centralized since it ended. It's still the best metagame we play, but it could definitely use some innovation

[Umby]

Edited, except for #10. Awaiting your valued feedback.

[shrapn3l]

metagross very rarely ends up being a huge threat on its own, since things like milotic, swampert and forretress are on every team, but it is the reason that every team needs a bulky water, even more so than the likes of aerodactyl, tyranitar, and salamence, who have other counters in pokemon like claydol. even skarmory, whose only real threats to metagross are impending spikes and whirlwind or roar, is rather susceptible to attack boosts or even crits when taking powerful choice banded meteor mashes. the most threatening thing about metagross is certainly explosion. metagross rarely pulls off a sweep on its own, but it is incredibly good at clearing the way for one of your other threats to get off a sweep. explosion can pave the way for a sweep by itself, but given metagross's solid special attack the susceptibility of some of its counters hidden power grass and fire, metagross is often capable of using the threat of explosion to tear apart half of a team with a mixed set by the time it's blown up. using lum berry to feign the common choice band set can help you get an easy kill on any gengar that tries to stay in to will o wisp you or tries take advantage of seeming choice banded earthquakes. metagross is also capable of using STAB psychic or pursuit to get gengar out of the way. hidden power fire can land a surprise ohko on forretress or a 2hko on skarmory. hidden power grass is a clean 2hko on swampert. after getting rid of metagross's other counters with hidden power and/or magneton support, metagross is free to blow up on something else, likely a celebi or a zapdos trying to tank meteor mashes and wear you down. with important and common defensive pokemon like zapdos, gengar, swampert, celebi, and skarmory out of the way, something like salamence or gyarados will have a much easier time with the opponent's team. of course, due to its excellent typing and stats, metagross also provides your team with important resistances to rock, flying, and normal attacks, and because of the threat of explosion and/or choice banded meteor mashes, it has an easy time scaring off common threats like celebi and curselax, making metagross a great fit for many teams as an efficient offensive threat and a solid defensive component.

[M Dragon]

Suicune should be at least higher than jirachi.
Suicune is much more dangerous.

Salamence and Metagross should be higher too, and Heracross deserve at least a mention.

metagross very rarely ends up being a huge threat on its own, since things like milotic, swampert and forretress are on every team

metagross cb can beat bulky waters, and it can also explode, removing the bulky water, so something like salamence/tyranitar would have a much easier time.
I have beaten milotics with cb meteor mashes before though (if it gets lucky with atk raises).
Sometimes a bulky water isnt enough to stop a Metagross, and it always risks an explosion.



Also, some time ago, I made a list about how i would rank the most common ADV threats (both offensive and defensive)

Huge threats:
-Tyranitar
-Suicune
-Celebi
-Gengar
-Salamence
-Jirachi
-Metagross
-Zapdos
-Swampert
-Dugtrio
-Snorlax
-Heracross
-Skarmory
-Blissey

Big threats (not in a particular order):
-Milotic
-Aerodactyl
-Gyarados
-Raikou
-Starmie
-Flygon
-Regice
-Medicham
-Jolteon
-Dragonite
-Blaziken
-Magneton
-Forretress
-Claydol
-Slaking
-Cloyster
-Houndoom
-Sceptile
-Dusclops
-Vaporeon
-Porygon2

[shrapn3l]

Originally Posted by Fat M Dragon

Suicune should be at least higher than jirachi.
Suicune is much more dangerous.

I agree

Salamence and Metagross should be higher too, and Heracross deserve at least a mention.

I agree that metagross should be higher and i kind of think heracross is more threatening than aerodactyl but since most people put aerodactyl on their list it's fine

metagross cb can beat bulky waters, and it can also explode, removing the bulky water, so something like salamence/tyranitar would have a much easier time.

Oh yes, that's what i mean to imply by "not a threat itself." beating a bulky water with cb meteor mash is obviously something that can happen with a bit of luck but the point is with cb it isn't getting past bulky waters most of the time without exploding. explosion can take out pretty much ANYTHING in the game, but after it explodes it isn't doing much else because it's fainted. it does however allow other sweepers to take advantage of the hole it creates. so that's what i meant. don't get me wrong, i think it belongs on the list, just a poor choice of words i suppose.

[Umby]

Heracross is certainly in consideration. I'm just afraid of putting it up there due to my initial bias towards it. I'm more afraid of it than I am of Celebi.

[LPFan]

Starting to play in the 3 gen metagame, thanks for the post, I'll take this into consideration when building my Gen 3 team!