A Standardized Tiering System

FearZeCrawdaunt · Jun 18th, 2012, 5:22:31 PM

Considering Smogon's already famous for creating an incredibly well-accepted tiering system for the VG, I think it would be natural for Smogonites to take a stab at tiering decks within a rotation.

I'd also argue that there's a relative need for this. It's not as though not having a defined tier for your deck to be in is useless, but I think that the TCG community at large runs a few different definitions of what is tier 1 etc... so having a standardized system would be appreciated for clarity's sake.

One of the biggest inconsistencies in the unorganized tiering method is how some people (including myself at times) use the "tier 1.5" statement, to try and say that this deck is BL in that it's too good to be considered tier 2, but not good enough to make it to tier 1.

The question is, how does one quantifiably and unbiasedly tier decks in the TCG? I have my own ideas about how to do this, but I thought it would be interesting to open it up to the floor first to see what people think/suggest.

Lady Salamence · Jun 18th, 2012, 7:27:54 PM

How would you tier decks? I can claim my deck is different from the next one because I have one more Junk Arm than he does. Or, no, small changes doesn't mean anything, and they are still the same deck.

please excuse me if I have no knowledge of tgc, the o ly reason I have cards are becuase they look cool

FearZeCrawdaunt · Jun 19th, 2012, 1:24:34 AM

General deck archetypes are already accepted as belonging to a certain tier or level of success, largely based off of tournament results.

The problem is that no set language is in place to say exactly what is tier 2, 3 etc... I think everyone is pretty agreed on the top of tier 1, but when you get to the fringe of what might be considered a tier 1 deck people's definitions get a little hazy.

FearZeCrawdaunt · Jun 19th, 2012, 12:24:27 PM

I think if I were to suggest a method for how to tier decks... it would probably be this.

Take the last tournament series' final results
Calculate the % Total wins for each deck
Any deck that took at least 5% of all wins is considered tier 1
-
Any deck that took multiple wins, but not over 5% of wins is considered tier 2
Any deck that only took 1 win will be evaluated based off of top cut results, as to whether it belongs in tier 2 or tier 3 (or lower)
If a deck has 1 win, and has top cut at least 1% of the time, it is considered tier 2
-
If a deck has 1 win, and has top cut less than 1% of the time, it is considered tier 3
Any deck without at least 1 win, but has top cut at least 1% of the time is considered tier 3
-
Any deck without at least 1 win, and has top cut less than 1% of the time is considered tier 4
-
Any deck without any tournament results is considered tier 5

This method obviously works well for a series of many small tournaments like Battle Roads, but should also work rather well for Cities, and even States. At tournaments like Regionals and Nationals, there are fewer overall, so it would be adapted to something like:

For Regionals, Nationals a placement in the top 4 is weighted the same as a smaller tournament win
Afterward, the above guidelines (regarding the 5% and 1% rules) apply, but are instead applied for decks down the chain of available tournament results.

Percentages will be rounded to the nearest percent.

The aim of this would be to provide clarity in discussion of decks and their places in the competitive world. This sort of tiering system would also provide a good summary list of decks that are competitive, that a player may be interested in playing. If we wanted to, Smogon could also write brief summary decklists/skeletons and strategy synopses (similar to how VG Pokemon get an explanation of movesets) to provide a comprehensive guide to the current format.

In a Smogon-esque fashion, we could also rate decks as "____ Performing" based off of their tier. This is kind of a leap... but might be a fun way to sort of brand the idea as Smogon's. ex: OP, BL, UP, RP, NP for tiers 1-5.

And for reference, based on this system, the current metagame decks would be rated thusly (based off of my tallies off Pokegym's results on the FP). I separated Troll and Fighting since the difference between the two has become more evident. Troll is Tornadus+Fighting Pokemon+Maybe Mewtwo, whereas Fighting Decks do not involve Tornadus, play far differently, and may still involve Mewtwo:

Tier 1
Darkrai + Friends
Zeels
Troll
CMT
Fighting
Klinklang + Friends

Tier 2
Quad Entei
Empoleon
The Truth
Vanilluxe/Vileplume/(Mew)
Durant

Tier 3
Lugia Legend
Accelgor/Vileplume/(Mew)
Kyurem EX/Kyurem/Mewtwo EX
Meganium/Vileplume
ReshiPhlosion
Terrakion/Eelektrik
Thundurus/Terrakion
Yanmega/Groudon
Cinccino/Hypno/Vileplume

Tier 4
Mismagius/Vileplume/EX's
ZPSTM
Raikou/Eelektrik/Max Potion
Tornadus/Mewtwo/Eelektrik
Magnezone/Eelektrik
MagneBoar
Sharpedo/Scrafty
Mismagius/Terrakion
Electrodebox
Gardevoir/Gothitelle
Chandelure/Terrakion
Kyurem EX/Terrakion/Mewtwo
Darkrai/Chandelure
Zebstrika variant of ZekEels
KyuGatr
Mewtwo/Darkrai/Donphan/SEL

edit: It may also just work better to create a re-defined tiering method for each tournament series. They'd all be very similar, but since the available data changes so much from tournament series to series, rather than trying to create something that's standardized across all series, it might be more useful to create different standardization methods for each series.

FearZeCrawdaunt · Jun 20th, 2012, 4:34:26 PM

And to update the week 5 results, and close out Battle Roads, that tiering system would come up with these results. I went through the whole thread on pokegym and retallied all the winning decks. I also split Troll and Aerodactyl/Tornadus up, because looking at one of the lists, it utilizes Darkrai and Dark Energy for free retreat and likely acceleration. Could be considered a Darkrai variant, but Darkrai is the only Dark Patch target. I think it's kind of like a Troll/Darkrai hybrid:

Tier 1
BDIF - Darkrai + Friends
ZekEels
CMT
Troll
Fighting

Tier 2
Klinklang + Friends
Empoleon
Entei
The Truth
Aerostar (Aerodactyl/Tornadus)
Thundurus/Terrakion
Accelgor/Vileplume
Durant
Vanilluxe/Victini/Vileplume
DarkArk (Darkrai/Zoroark)
Meganium/Vileplume
Kumis.dec (Mismagius/EX's/Vileplume)
MewScoops
Electrodebox

Tier 3
Lugia Legend
Kyurem/Kyurem EX(/Mewtwo)
Cinccino/Hypno/Vileplume
Yanmega/Groudon
Entei/Tornadus
Meganium/Vileplume

Tier 4
Lilligant/Vileplume
ReshiPhlosion
ZPSTM
Six Corners
Empoleon/Magnezone
Celebi/Tornadus
Sharpedo/Scrafty/Victini
Celebi/Terrakion
Magneels
Groudon EX/Terrakion/Darkrai EX/Mewtwo EX/Zekrom EX
Magneboar
Plumebox? (Mew/Vileplume?)
KyuGatr (Kyurem (/EX)/Feraligatr)
Steelix/Groudon
Gothitelle/Gardevoir
Kyurem EX/Terrakion/Mewtwo EX
Chandelure/Terrakion

You can find my tallies here: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?18q1bk6f6ct78p6
They differ a little from pokegym's (when you're counting hundreds of things, miscounts happen. Mighta been both of us :P) but overall pretty similar. Mine just takes decks like "Donphan/Mewtwo" or "Donphan/Cobalion" and merges that into "Fighting" as a deck archetype.

stelzeradiane · May 12th, 2013, 12:11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat FearZeCrawdaunt

I think if I were to suggest a method for how to tier decks... it would probably be this.

Take the last tournament series' final results
Calculate the % Total wins for each deck
Any deck that took at least 5% of all wins is considered tier 1
-
Any deck that took multiple wins, but not over 5% of wins is considered tier 2
Any deck that only took 1 win will be evaluated based off of top cut results, as to whether it belongs in tier 2 or tier 3 (or lower)
If a deck has 1 win, and has top cut at least 1% of the time, it is considered tier 2
-
If a deck has 1 win, and has top cut less than 1% of the time, it is considered tier 3
Any deck without at least 1 win, but has top cut at least 1% of the time is considered tier 3
-
Any deck without at least 1 win, and has top cut less than 1% of the time is considered tier 4
-
Any deck without any tournament results is considered tier 5

This method obviously works well for a series of many small tournaments like Battle Roads, but should also work rather well for Cities, and even States. At tournaments like Regionals and Nationals, there are fewer overall, so it would be adapted to something like:

For Regionals, Nationals a placement in the top 4 is weighted the same as a smaller tournament win
Afterward, the above guidelines (regarding the 5% and 1% rules) apply, but are instead applied for decks down the chain of available tournament results.

I think this is a good tip. I'll try this one and see. :)

Jun 18th, 2012, 5:22:31 PM	#1
FearZeCrawdaunt Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 393 Victoria, BC	A Standardized Tiering System Considering Smogon's already famous for creating an incredibly well-accepted tiering system for the VG, I think it would be natural for Smogonites to take a stab at tiering decks within a rotation. I'd also argue that there's a relative need for this. It's not as though not having a defined tier for your deck to be in is useless, but I think that the TCG community at large runs a few different definitions of what is tier 1 etc... so having a standardized system would be appreciated for clarity's sake. One of the biggest inconsistencies in the unorganized tiering method is how some people (including myself at times) use the "tier 1.5" statement, to try and say that this deck is BL in that it's too good to be considered tier 2, but not good enough to make it to tier 1. The question is, how does one quantifiably and unbiasedly tier decks in the TCG? I have my own ideas about how to do this, but I thought it would be interesting to open it up to the floor first to see what people think/suggest.

Jun 18th, 2012, 7:27:54 PM	#2
Lady Salamence radda radda Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,266 ROFL ROFL ROFL	How would you tier decks? I can claim my deck is different from the next one because I have one more Junk Arm than he does. Or, no, small changes doesn't mean anything, and they are still the same deck. please excuse me if I have no knowledge of tgc, the o ly reason I have cards are becuase they look cool __________________ oh dear [sigpic] broke

Jun 19th, 2012, 12:24:27 PM	#4
FearZeCrawdaunt Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 393 Victoria, BC	I think if I were to suggest a method for how to tier decks... it would probably be this. Take the last tournament series' final results Calculate the % Total wins for each deck Any deck that took at least 5% of all wins is considered tier 1 - Any deck that took multiple wins, but not over 5% of wins is considered tier 2 Any deck that only took 1 win will be evaluated based off of top cut results, as to whether it belongs in tier 2 or tier 3 (or lower) If a deck has 1 win, and has top cut at least 1% of the time, it is considered tier 2 - If a deck has 1 win, and has top cut less than 1% of the time, it is considered tier 3 Any deck without at least 1 win, but has top cut at least 1% of the time is considered tier 3 - Any deck without at least 1 win, and has top cut less than 1% of the time is considered tier 4 - Any deck without any tournament results is considered tier 5 This method obviously works well for a series of many small tournaments like Battle Roads, but should also work rather well for Cities, and even States. At tournaments like Regionals and Nationals, there are fewer overall, so it would be adapted to something like: For Regionals, Nationals a placement in the top 4 is weighted the same as a smaller tournament win Afterward, the above guidelines (regarding the 5% and 1% rules) apply, but are instead applied for decks down the chain of available tournament results. Percentages will be rounded to the nearest percent. The aim of this would be to provide clarity in discussion of decks and their places in the competitive world. This sort of tiering system would also provide a good summary list of decks that are competitive, that a player may be interested in playing. If we wanted to, Smogon could also write brief summary decklists/skeletons and strategy synopses (similar to how VG Pokemon get an explanation of movesets) to provide a comprehensive guide to the current format. In a Smogon-esque fashion, we could also rate decks as "____ Performing" based off of their tier. This is kind of a leap... but might be a fun way to sort of brand the idea as Smogon's. ex: OP, BL, UP, RP, NP for tiers 1-5. And for reference, based on this system, the current metagame decks would be rated thusly (based off of my tallies off Pokegym's results on the FP). I separated Troll and Fighting since the difference between the two has become more evident. Troll is Tornadus+Fighting Pokemon+Maybe Mewtwo, whereas Fighting Decks do not involve Tornadus, play far differently, and may still involve Mewtwo: Tier 1 Darkrai + Friends Zeels Troll CMT Fighting Klinklang + Friends Tier 2 Quad Entei Empoleon The Truth Vanilluxe/Vileplume/(Mew) Durant Tier 3 Lugia Legend Accelgor/Vileplume/(Mew) Kyurem EX/Kyurem/Mewtwo EX Meganium/Vileplume ReshiPhlosion Terrakion/Eelektrik Thundurus/Terrakion Yanmega/Groudon Cinccino/Hypno/Vileplume Tier 4 Mismagius/Vileplume/EX's ZPSTM Raikou/Eelektrik/Max Potion Tornadus/Mewtwo/Eelektrik Magnezone/Eelektrik MagneBoar Sharpedo/Scrafty Mismagius/Terrakion Electrodebox Gardevoir/Gothitelle Chandelure/Terrakion Kyurem EX/Terrakion/Mewtwo Darkrai/Chandelure Zebstrika variant of ZekEels KyuGatr Mewtwo/Darkrai/Donphan/SEL edit: It may also just work better to create a re-defined tiering method for each tournament series. They'd all be very similar, but since the available data changes so much from tournament series to series, rather than trying to create something that's standardized across all series, it might be more useful to create different standardization methods for each series. Last edited by FearZeCrawdaunt; Jun 20th, 2012 at 3:09:56 AM.

Jun 20th, 2012, 4:34:26 PM	#5
FearZeCrawdaunt Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 393 Victoria, BC	And to update the week 5 results, and close out Battle Roads, that tiering system would come up with these results. I went through the whole thread on pokegym and retallied all the winning decks. I also split Troll and Aerodactyl/Tornadus up, because looking at one of the lists, it utilizes Darkrai and Dark Energy for free retreat and likely acceleration. Could be considered a Darkrai variant, but Darkrai is the only Dark Patch target. I think it's kind of like a Troll/Darkrai hybrid: Tier 1 BDIF - Darkrai + Friends ZekEels CMT Troll Fighting Tier 2 Klinklang + Friends Empoleon Entei The Truth Aerostar (Aerodactyl/Tornadus) Thundurus/Terrakion Accelgor/Vileplume Durant Vanilluxe/Victini/Vileplume DarkArk (Darkrai/Zoroark) Meganium/Vileplume Kumis.dec (Mismagius/EX's/Vileplume) MewScoops Electrodebox Tier 3 Lugia Legend Kyurem/Kyurem EX(/Mewtwo) Cinccino/Hypno/Vileplume Yanmega/Groudon Entei/Tornadus Meganium/Vileplume Tier 4 Lilligant/Vileplume ReshiPhlosion ZPSTM Six Corners Empoleon/Magnezone Celebi/Tornadus Sharpedo/Scrafty/Victini Celebi/Terrakion Magneels Groudon EX/Terrakion/Darkrai EX/Mewtwo EX/Zekrom EX Magneboar Plumebox? (Mew/Vileplume?) KyuGatr (Kyurem (/EX)/Feraligatr) Steelix/Groudon Gothitelle/Gardevoir Kyurem EX/Terrakion/Mewtwo EX Chandelure/Terrakion You can find my tallies here: http://www.mediafire.com/view/?18q1bk6f6ct78p6 They differ a little from pokegym's (when you're counting hundreds of things, miscounts happen. Mighta been both of us :P) but overall pretty similar. Mine just takes decks like "Donphan/Mewtwo" or "Donphan/Cobalion" and merges that into "Fighting" as a deck archetype. Last edited by FearZeCrawdaunt; Jun 21st, 2012 at 2:27:29 AM.

Jun 19th, 2012, 1:24:34 AM	#3
FearZeCrawdaunt Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 393 Victoria, BC	General deck archetypes are already accepted as belonging to a certain tier or level of success, largely based off of tournament results. The problem is that no set language is in place to say exactly what is tier 2, 3 etc... I think everyone is pretty agreed on the top of tier 1, but when you get to the fringe of what might be considered a tier 1 deck people's definitions get a little hazy.