BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

170 base Atk and SpA mean nothing when you can't hit the opponent because they just outsped and killed you before you could hit them. However, I don't think that they will be OU for a long time.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I pointed out that Scizor, of all things, can't even switch on a resisted Draco Meteor from WK. And even if it did survive, both formes have enough bulk to survive Bullet Punch.
They don't care about priority, they don't care about resists, they don't care about speed.... they just use their STAB and things die.

[Jobes]

For those who have been playing in this new BW2 metagame and testing, which pokémon would you predict will drop down to OU that were previously Uber?

[jvl101993]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

White Kyurem can also obliterate every single steel save Heatran type in the game with Fusion Flare.

Even if it doesn't obliterate it, it'll still hit through Flash Fire thanks to Turboblaze. Unresisted coverage in 2 moves off 170 Sp. Atk? 125/90/100 Defenses, well above average 120 Atk, strong secondary STAB in Ice Beam, and the potential to run Dragon Pulse, Roost, Focus Blast, Earth Power, or whatever the hell you want with Scarf or Life Orb seems too destructive and broken for OU in my opinion. The new Kyurem forms aren't terrible defensively: they can take hits pretty well and murder things with their outrageous STABs. White Kyurem definitely doesn't need to be in OU.

[Skore]

So how much are all these changes going to impact the King of OU Scizor's usage %?

I see it taking a fairly big hit as the meta struggles to fit in all the new threats and checks of the Therian beasts, Keldeo, Amoongus and the new movesets many other mons received, like Moxie-krow, Salamence and Thick Fat Mamoswine.

[Twins]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

So how much are all these changes going to impact the King of OU Scizor's usage %?

I see it taking a fairly big hit as the meta struggles to fit in all the new threats and checks of the Therian beasts, Keldeo, Amoongus and the new movesets many other mons received, like Moxie-krow, Salamence and Thick Fat Mamoswine.

Scizor will probably drop in usage for the first few months (like it did when BW came out) to make way for all the new threats, but once the metagame settles down, it will be back on top again, if with a bit less % usage.

Haven't seen many Scizor at all on Pokemon Showdown, so.

[asdfrozen]

What's the best set for Gliscor now? People are saying Roost isn't that great...

The set I've started running is:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
252 HP 184 Def 72 Spe Impish
Roost
Toxic
Taunt
Earthquake

Although I kinda want to fit in Substitute, Ice Fang, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, or maybe even Facade in there...
The point of this set is to synergize Gliscor's fast Taunt with his bulk (supplemented by Poison Heal and Roost), so maybe more Spe EVs would be helpful?

[ginganinja]

For those who have been playing in this new BW2 metagame and testing, which pokémon would you predict will drop down to OU that were previously Uber?

Pokemon don't "drop down" from ubers, once its been banned to ubers it usually stays there.

That said, a number of the community feels that Thundurus, Garchomp and Excadrill deserve a re-test (or some of those three) which is a fair point IMO since the metagame has shifted a lot (from what iv found) and they could be fine I guess. I personally would prefer to wait at least a month or 3 for everything to settle down tho lol

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Doesn't a White Kyurem spamming Blizzard coming off a 170 base SpA counts?

I am only sad that sand got really nothing notable with BW2 with exception of Sand Rush Sandslash. While it's true that the general options from OP works on the sand, as the name says they are GENERAL, sand could get something that only works with them like Rain and Sun did. I would agree if Garchomp and Excadrill were to be retested.

Superpower Stoutland (fuck you Terrakion) doesn't count?

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

White Kyurem can also obliterate every single steelsave Heatran type in the game with Fusion Flare.

Man, even Heatran has problems due to Turboblaze (Specs does 40-46% to max/max Calm Heatran).

[bluemon]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Pokemon don't "drop down" from ubers, once its been banned to ubers it usually stays there.

That said, a number of the community feels that Thundurus, Garchomp and Excadrill deserve a re-test (or some of those three) which is a fair point IMO since the metagame has shifted a lot (from what iv found) and they could be fine I guess. I personally would prefer to wait at least a month or 3 for everything to settle down tho lol

I say drop them Now.

Because if we give bw2 time to settle, then it would be messed up again in a few months. Let's just have one big fire instead of two little ones

[un?lucky]

Originally Posted by Fat bluemon

I say drop them Now.

Because if we give bw2 time to settle, then it would be messed up again in a few months. Let's just have one big fire instead of two little ones

I agree, plus it's almost certain that sand wouldn't be as dominant as it previously was considering rain now has tornadusT, keldeo and aqua tail haxorus to abuse and without sandstorm, exca and garchomp become much less of a threat. Not to mention tornadusT and keldeo are able to out speed garchomp and deal significant damage with their respective stab moves (if they hit).

[Asek]

If Thundurus-T gets banned (Not looking likely judging from comments, but one can hope) I think Zapdos could rise up out of UU and become the Premier Volt-Turn Counter. As it is now Thundurus-T does the same thing but with absolutly brutal hitting power. Also why has'nt anyone brought up Cloyster? After A Shell Smash he destroys all the new threats, minus Keldeo ( HP electric anyone?)
EDIT: Agreeing with Pillsbury in entirety

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

If sand and rain gets all of these things, I want Groundon for Sun asap...

New pokes would be kinda cool but I don't want it to become weather for every team again :( Dropping all these things to (lol) "balance the meta" just makes us have two super powerful options, sand and rain, while everything else gets shafted

[Ericcc]

Originally Posted by Fat asdfrozen

What's the best set for Gliscor now? People are saying Roost isn't that great...

The set I've started running is:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
252 HP 184 Def 72 Spe Impish
Roost
Toxic
Taunt
Earthquake

Although I kinda want to fit in Substitute, Ice Fang, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, or maybe even Facade in there...
The point of this set is to synergize Gliscor's fast Taunt with his bulk (supplemented by Poison Heal and Roost), so maybe more Spe EVs would be helpful?

I'm not sure if it's still on site but last gen the Stall Breaker set worked amazingly for me! It was Jolly with (I think) full/near full speed investment and HP. Only thing you need to do is slash Toxic out for U-Turn.

[Darkhuaza517]

Originally Posted by Fat Sewa

In fact he's saying that we should retest them, giving the huge boost to rain team and new checks and counters to both pokes.

EDIT: aw, ninjaed Q_Q

Thank you for clarifying; it would in fact be interesting to see Garchomp and Excadrill back in OU. Although Garchomp might seem OP'd on a first glance, Excadrill seems a better shot in OU.

[Omicron]

Thundurus-T isn't really the ultimate stop to VoltTurn per say, as CB Scizor's U-turn deals a hefty ~40%, while Bullet Punch has a high chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

[bluemon]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

If sand and rain gets all of these things, I want Groundon for Sun asap...

New pokes would be kinda cool but I don't want it to become weather for every team again :( Dropping all these things to (lol) "balance the meta" just makes us have two super powerful options, sand and rain, while everything else gets shafted

You are wrong my friend. I believe that sun is a powerful as ever.

With new options like gigs drain for venusaur and volcarona as well as pain split for ninetales, sun can really pull its weight.

Another secret ingredient to a successful sun team is LANDORUS. Ohmygosh this thing is a beast. I'm not talking about the physical set. Hail before this OU breaking set:

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Nature: Modest
4 Def / 252 Sp.atk / 252 Spd
-Rock Polish
-Earth Power
-Psychic
-Hp Ice

This set has won me countless games and it is so anti meta yet so good. It can pull its weight against all weathers, and it's bulk an power and speed is great.
Against rain, STAB earth power 2hkoes everything and psychic maims Keldeo. Against sand, it's typing is great, and it kills everything with all its moves. Hp ice for dragons and gliscor and other landoruses... Earthpower for the rest. Against sun teams, it can definitely counter sweep stuff like venusaur, and earth power + psychic kills all those grass types like venusaur and amoonguss. EP kills fire types like Heatran as well

However, the best thing about this set is that it's unknown. No one sees a special set coming. I can set up all day while rotom will-o-wisps me. Then I 2hko with psychic. Same with amoonguss and slowbro and Heatran. This set is just so great.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat bluemon

You are wrong my friend. I believe that sun is a powerful as ever.

With new options like gigs drain for venusaur and volcarona as well as pain split for ninetales, sun can really pull its weight.

Another secret ingredient to a successful sun team is LANDORUS. Ohmygosh this thing is a beast. I'm not talking about the physical set. Hail before this OU breaking set:

Landorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Nature: Modest
4 Def / 252 Sp.atk / 252 Spd
-Rock Polish
-Earth Power
-Psychic
-Hp Ice

This set has won me countless games and it is so anti meta yet so good. It can pull its weight against all weathers, and it's bulk an power and speed is great.
Against rain, STAB earth power 2hkoes everything and psychic maims Keldeo. Against sand, it's typing is great, and it kills everything with all its moves. Hp ice for dragons and gliscor and other landoruses... Earthpower for the rest. Against sun teams, it can definitely counter sweep stuff like venusaur, and earth power + psychic kills all those grass types like venusaur and amoonguss. EP kills fire types like Heatran as well

However, the best thing about this set is that it's unknown. No one sees a special set coming. I can set up all day while rotom will-o-wisps me. Then I 2hko with psychic. Same with amoonguss and slowbro and Heatran. This set is just so great.

I never meant "sun didn't get anything", but the new additions are a lot less substantial. Everything got "more powerful than ever". Giga Drain Volcarona and Venasaur is no way as good or signifigant as giving Garchomp and Excadrill back to Sand. Rain upped the power ante with Keldeo, Tornadus-t, and Thunderus-t (and you are willing to give normal Thunderus on top of that!). Reintroducing those suspects back is going to make it a two way race between rain and sand. There is a reason when you had Garchomp, Excadrill, and Thunderus around you had Politoed and Ttar sitting up there while lowly Ninetales sat 6%. She still isn't used as much as her the other weather inducers, but ever since those were banned she has had a healthy climb to 8%. Now that was with garchomp and excadrill while rain only had thunderus to compete but with the addition of the new tornadus, new thunderus, and Keldeo (more powerhouses to compete) I'm sure Politoed would sit right up there with Ttar.

Landorus isn't "tied" to sun as much as the other guys are. But if you insist, physical Rock Polish Landorus could accomplish many of the same things the special set posted for sun teams before Sheer Force got released. EQ gets that same 2HKO on Keldeo, he kills Gliscor and Dragons with HP Ice, still gives trouble to Sand teams, kills Venasaur with SR, etc. The only things you can't do is OHKO Amoonguss (who isn't much of a problem for sun), get the no-miss 2HKO on Rotom-W, and have that no-recoil life orb (always nice). The point is Landorus didn't add that much to Sun teams at all as much as you say, physical Rock Polish Landorus accomplished pretty much everything you said. Also who the hell will-o-wisps landorus with rotom-w if they outright kill with hydro pump?

Basically all of these new pokes, both introduced and brought back down, make sure sun doesn't get as much of a chance.

[Psycho Cut]

I've had a few Battles on Showdown with BW2 and my first realisation is that CM Jirachi is awesome! ;)

[un?lucky]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I never meant "sun didn't get anything", but the new additions are a lot less substantial. Everything got "more powerful than ever". Giga Drain Volcarona and Venasaur is no way as good or signifigant as giving Garchomp and Excadrill back to Sand. Rain upped the power ante with Keldeo, Tornadus-t, and Thunderus-t (and you are willing to give normal Thunderus on top of that!). Reintroducing those suspects back is going to make it a two way race between rain and sand.

That's the thing though, at the moment its just rain dominating with such powerful pokemon due to the power creep of BW2. At least if we reintroduced garchomp and excadril it isn't so one sided towards rain as I think they are able to compete to an extent with rain teams. It isn't an ideal situation though I agree, pretty much all other teams are neglected in this case but as it stands right now rain is so dominant that it is pretty much the only team worth using imo.

One thing that might cause offensive rain teams trouble if you aren't using a rain team yourself is SS kingdra. If can 2HKO/OHKO all the new additions as well as out speeding every pokemon under rain.

[GoliathGarchomp]

Rain is really poweful, I expect there will be some changes in the future to balance things a bit more. Im glad to see Amonguss doing so well in the OU metagame.
Sun has got a bit of a boost but running a sun team is just so hard with rain so popular at the moment, however subsplit Ninetales is really good.

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
Nature: Calm 252HP/108Def/148Spdef
-Substitute
-Pain Split
-Will-O-Wisp
-Flamethrower

Been using this set and it works really well, even managed to stall out a politoed but that was when sun was up.

Another pokemon who really works in the this current metagame is sub Hydreigon

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Modest 56HP/252SpAtk/200Speed
-Substitute
-Dragon Pulse
-Fire Blast
-Focus Blast/Earth Power

Iv been using this pokemon in sun and it works great. Can 2hit ko all the members of the new popular core of Heatran/Amonguss/Slowbro. Also does well agaist some of the other pokemon in the current top 10

[Groombridge]

Some hilarity: this is the deadliest Meloetta set I've used. It's based on the classic Fake Out/Last Resort Ambipom set:


Meloetta @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Jolly 4 Def / 252 Atk/ 252 Speed
- Relic Song
- Last Resort

Come in to revenge something and use Relic Song. This gives it 128 Atk and 128 Spd, with a STAB 140BP attack, with which you sweep the hell out of everything. You just have to get Ghosts out of the way, and either remove or severely weaken Rocks and Steels. Also get rid of strong priority users. What could be simpler?

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Groombridge

Some hilarity: this is the deadliest Meloetta set I've used. It's based on the classic Fake Out/Last Resort Ambipom set:


Meloetta @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Jolly 4 Def / 252 Atk/ 252 Speed
- Relic Song
- Last Resort

Come in to revenge something and use Relic Song. This gives it 128 Atk and 128 Spd, with a STAB 140BP attack, with which you sweep the hell out of everything. You just have to get Ghosts out of the way, and either remove or severely weaken Rocks and Steels. Also get rid of strong priority users. What could be simpler?

World peace?

How is removing all the steels and rock types (every OU team has one steel and Ttar is everywhere) and also removing Ghost types (Jellicent is bulky and has Recover, while SubDisable Gengar is tricky to ko if the opponent doesn't let you to) simple?

And in addition to all that you have to get 1 free turn... No thx i would rather go with SD Haxorus and ohko the whole meta at +2 in rain!

[alphatron]

Technically, dropping down the old ubers would give sun garchomp and blaziken back. >_>

So I've been losing an awful lost of faith in tentacruel as a spinner. Starmie is the best one by far, being able to fit on pretty much any team. Sandslash has proven his worth on sand teams. Tentacruel only seems to go on one type of rain team...

In further news, keldeo on sun teams is as good as I expected him to be.

[Groombridge]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

World peace?

How is removing all the steels and rock types (every OU team has one steel and Ttar is everywhere) and also removing Ghost types (Jellicent is bulky and has Recover, while SubDisable Gengar is tricky to ko if the opponent doesn't let you to) simple?

And in addition to all that you have to get 1 free turn... No thx i would rather go with SD Haxorus and ohko the whole meta at +2 in rain!

Sarcasm, homeboy. This isn't particularly simple to set up, but it is immensely powerful once it has a clear run. Last Resort knocks 36-45% off 0/0 TTar, but who would switch a TTar into Meloetta-P anyway? Point is, this thing is tremendously fun to use. Slam it on a team with Scarftar and Hydreigon, and go nuts. Nobody expects Mel-P to use its Normal STAB, so you end up 2HKOing Gliscors left and right.



And SD Haxorus also requires a free turn to set up! The difference I guess is that Relic Song (Meloetta's setup move) has a 20% chance of inflicting sleep. When that happens, it's like getting a kill for free. Just gotta kill those Ghosts, Rocks and Steels. Also Hippowdon, Suicune and any Intimidaters. Mamo too, to be safe. And Azumarill. SORTED

[Eriorguez]

Mmm, may I ask, is Vanilla Kyurem improved now that it gets Roost and Earth Power?