The Trial of the King Killers [Anti-Metagame Defensive "Tier List"] Update: T11 Done!

[scwizard]

Originally Posted by Fat Tetrinity

Just out of interest, I pulled out the Pokémon that are listed for both Scizor and Rotom-W:

VoltTurn "Counters"

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Amoonguss
Dragonite
Dusclops
Jirachi
Metang
Milotic
Salamence
Shelgon
Tropius
Zapdos

Pretty interesting list, but some of these Pokémon definitely couldn't be considered as counters due to being incapable of hitting back. I've picked out a few that I feel could actually do something useful. ;)


Amoonguss @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore (wish they'd hurry up and release Regenerator...)
Nature: Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
- Spore
- Stun Spore
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Amoonguss has real potential, in my opinion, thanks to Spore and STAB Giga Drain, which 2HKOs all standard Rotom-W (bulky attacker only after Stealth Rock) while scarfed Rotom-W can only 4HKO after Stealth Rock with HP Fire even before you consider the recovery from Giga Drain.

Choice Band Scizor is a little more problematic, especially if Sleep Clause is active, since U-Turn is a guaranteed 2HKO and Bullet Punch is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. The standard OU Amoonguss set carries HP Ice, but even HP Fire can only manage a 2HKO (61.8% - 73.5%). Against Scizor, Amoonguss' best shot is either waiting until hazards wear it down enough to take it out with a single HP Fire, or catching it on the switch with status.

I wouldn't consider Amoonguss a volt turn counter, because of the reasons you mention concerning Scizor.

Defensive Salamence makes me wince. I'm not comfortable with the idea of it, but I will admit you make a point.

Zapdos is only the only perfectly hard volt turn counter in my opinion, and I think the specially defensive set is worth looking into for OU.

Originally Posted by Fat Tetrinity

CB Bullet Punch is a 4HKO with rocks against defensive Salamence after Intimidate. The same Salamence OHKOs with Flamethrower. That's the set that counters Scizor, not the offensive sets which are indeed 2HKOed after rocks and Intimidate.

If nothing else, I run that defensive Mence, and it performs admirably against Scizor.

Yeah when I read "salamence" at first I didn't think of a defensive set, which threw me off.

It's because personally I run a hyper offensive moxie Salamence. Scizor won't stop that thing from sweeping usually, but I guess in a way I can't switch it into anything.

[Tetrinity]

Yeah, Salamence is surprisingly versatile. The lack of power in WishMence compared to other sets can be a bummer at times, but he makes up for it by being an extremely reliable defensive pivot and team supporter. Dragon Tail makes for some nice shenanigans against Volt-Turn too.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat scwizard

Your omissions influence things a lot.



Executive decisions like this is how you end up listing SlowBro as a dragonite counter, when the reality out there is that it usually isn't.

CB outrage does 56.3% - 66.5% to slowbro, and dragonite also outspeeds it.
Meanwhile if multiscale is up, slowbro can't OHKO. So slowbro loses head to head.

You also have stuff like "mence as a scizor counter." I run mence, and no way am I going to switch him into bullet punch. Especially if rocks is up.

Great thread btw. It's interesting to learn about pokemon like Shelgon and Alomomola.

Yeah thing is most Dragonite aren't CB, and the nice thing about that situation you just put forward is that Slowbro has Regenerator, so if it turns out to be a CB set you can always just switch right out, recover at least half the health you lost, and go to a steel type to absorb the rest of the attack. Nothing else is going to do that damage, so even with CB nite you're still kind of screwed against Slowbro.

Of course this isn't taking into account the much less common Mixed sets which can obliterate slowbro with Draco Meteor and Thunder, but no one uses those outside of rain except me anyway for some reason, and Thunder/Hurricane Nite has a completely different set of counters anyway.

Originally Posted by Fat zyrefredric

What Lickilicky set brought him to such a high tier? I've been using him as a special wall/phazer, with Curse/Dragon Tail/Rest/Sleep Talk, but maybe I'm using it wrong?

Well it wasn't considering a specific set persay, so much as its coverage options. It can run stuff like Power Whip, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, etc. that you usually wouldn't see on a conventional Lickilicky set. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to actually run a utitlity counter set on Lickilicky, but it might be worth a shot after seeing these calculations.

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

If you use a Flame Orb on Milotic (inadvisable, obviously), would Rest+Sleep Talk even be necessary? The whole point of that set is to use Rest as both recovery and to activate Marvel Scale. If FO does the latter, I would much rather use Recover for the instant heal and lack of being a sitting duck otherwise.

Milotic's Dragon Tail is laughably weak, though, so it obviously is less effective against Sub users. Having something to help with this helps make the RestTalk set less of a liability, because Milotic can really shine if given the chance.

Haze Milotic has its uses, too. Remember, always Recover on Volt-Turn!

[Garganator]

Actually A ranking for Hitmontop is something nice to see. Taking into account how valuable Rapid Spinners are (still there are not that many of them) and how full stall teams are less common because of the lack of truly effective spin blockers in this meta (and when I use Jellicent most of time as a ghost type in stall/semi-stall teams I feel it's lacking for me especially against Starmie), I think that Intimidate Hitmontop (I assume this ranking counts Intimidate in ?) is something worth to consider as those calcs prove that he can do something else then 'counter TTar' too and actually he can spin easier then in the past.

And honestly I'm surprised to see... Shelgon so high. Yes, even if counting Eviolite I never ever expected to see it at B ranking. I think I need to run calcs (unless someone is bored enough to do it now ?) and see how it looks as honestly I love to see and use usable gimmicks, which actually can work. And about Poliwrath - I used it in the past in OU, so I'm happy to see it get some good attention.

EDIT: Oh... how could I miss that LickyLicky ? So high, but when you look at his natural bulk it's not THAT surprising though.

[Katakiri]

This thread is set for a massive overhaul or a completely new version once the BW2 meta settles in and the new BW2 sets get put on-site but until that happens this project has been halted.

[Skore]

People need to use Yawn more on Slowbro. A good yawn can take care of all your dragon problems.

[WinstonShnozwick]

Fucking awesome. I love this. My two faves;

Milotic. One of my fave pokemon, this thing is amazing. My set is resttalk + dragonbreath/scald. Great coverage, status, and bulk/recovery with marvel scale. It's a true nightmare to stop. Get's around 340 for both defensive stats when marvel scale is asleep.

Empoleon hell yeah. Used him as the special wall on my OU team months ago before I quit OU, and he was amazing.

edit: Defensive is nice, but what if I want to kill the top tier with offense? Will there be an Anti-Metagame Offensive" list? Kind of like how rotom c stops rotom w