(Gen 3) ADV OU Threat List *Onsite - Page 3

-Absol- · Jun 25th, 2012, 11:31:56 AM

zapdos
suicune
ttar
celebi
jirachi
metagross
gengar
dugtrio
snorlax
magneton

Danilo · Jun 25th, 2012, 1:02:35 PM

Magneton O_o
Defensive Threats
1. Zapdos- RestTalk + Spikes is nuts. Good defensive typing, hits hard with Tbolt, walls Metagross, checks Gengar, Celebi, Water-types, HP Rockless Gyarados, and more
2. Swampert- forces a ton of Pokemon to run HP Grass if they even want to touch Pert without exploding.
3. Snorlax- walls nearly all special attackers while still being threatening with Curse
4. Suicune- similar to Snorlax but in exchange for better typing Suicune losses the ability to check Tyranitar and Salamence over time due to the lack of reliable recovery.
5. Celebi- walls a ton of stuff. Has access to Perish Song and Heal Bell. Can be an offensive supporter with Calm Mind, Psychic, Leech Seed, Recover.
6. Blissey- Walls all special attackers. The Calm Mind set is good.
7. Skarmory- checks all physical attackers, sets up Spikes, whirlwinds. Not much of an offensive threat though so it isn't a counter to anything, :(
8. Forretress- actually doesn't beat anything but it's a great defensive pivot and is easily the best Rapid Spin user in the tier.
9. Claydol- is an excellent check to Tyranitar, and a good check to Salamence and Flygon. Can beat Gengar with Psychic on a switch. Rapid Spin is great.
10. Milotic- Checks Salamence and Metagross. Okay check to Ttar. Good ability, great typing, and access to Recover.

shrapn3l · Jun 25th, 2012, 2:49:15 PM

drill peck makes skarm a hard counter to heracross and gyarados, which is significant because only a handful of pokemon are hard counters to either of them.

also i wouldn't say forretress is the best spinner in the game, since it isn't spinning at all if it doesn't have a teammate that can pursuit gengar... starmie is the best spinner.

list seems fine though. just nitpicks

***JabbaTheGriffin**** · Jun 25th, 2012, 3:15:55 PM

I don't personally think there is any way Gengar is the 2nd biggest threat in the metagame. Best it can do is stop spin and fire off some unboosted, unstabbed attacks. It's definitely something you have to take into consideration when team building (which can be remedied as simply as running pursuit ttar), but even teams I've made where all 6 mons are hit SE by the normal attacking moves of gengar don't have much of a problem with it.

I've always had a bit of a bias against Gengar though, as I've thought it was trash since the first day I played ADV. So my opinion probably isn't as useful as someone who actually consistently uses gengar.

jrrrrrrr · Jun 25th, 2012, 3:56:06 PM

Gengar is a top-tier attacker but I have to agree with Jabba. It just can't sweep on it's own. At best it will force a couple of switches but any decently made team already has plenty of ways of dealing with it. It's highly situational. Even things like Celebi and Zapdos who are weak to one of its main attacks can switch in and beat it handily. Not to mention the popularity of Swampert Jirachi and Tyranitar

Triangles · Jun 25th, 2012, 4:11:40 PM

Quote:

Not to mention the popularity of Swampert Jirachi and Tyranitar

Pert dies to the common Giga Drain Gengar (I'd say about 45% of Gars currently run it) and as such cannot be considered a surefire answer to it. Also, no Pert likes WoW which often replaces Giga Drain. I mean, most Pert can't even hurt Gengar much outside of Hydro Pump/Surf which is only seen on about 60% of Pert. I have to say that I myself would not put Gengar as high as it is - I'd put it at 4 or so although the general consensus seems to be 3. I think that it's only higher than Celebi on this list because of Umby's personal vendetta against the onion pixie. :)

Umby · Jun 25th, 2012, 6:25:15 PM

Wat. I never said I had anything against Celebi. I think it's a pretty cool Pokemon. But I rarely, while defending against it, feel as threatened by it as I would against Heracross. But again, that's just me. Different playstyles/team building habits may lead to different experiences.

Gengar's threat is not particularly due to its sweeping prowess but more so how much risk you take in dealing with it. It may not destroy a ton of things out the gate, but it has many tools to cripple its own counters and a layer of unpredictability to mask the fact in battle. Naturally that means you might want to feel it out for its moves so you don't take unnecessary damage, but whether you do or don't, you may lose a number of resources in the process. Now, some people may not see that as such a huge deal, but I think that also has to deal with playstyles and how one normally builds their teams.

I forgot why I put it above Celebi, but I did try and ask what you guys thought about that line up before I edited the OP. D:

Urgggh...it'd be extra work, but should we just change it to a threat list in general without restricting it to top 10?

***Oglemi**** · Jun 25th, 2012, 8:53:59 PM

Umby you could change it into a typical ADV OU threat list and then we could put in onsite :3

Danilo · Jun 25th, 2012, 8:58:50 PM

The top 3 for me need to be Ttar, Celebi, and Suicune. Suicune is just so much more threatening than Gengar. It has excellent stats, a great movepool, and can just sweep unprepared teams with ease. Even prepared teams have trouble with last Pokemon CroCune, who demolishes more offensive teams if they can't explode on it. Offensive cune is an excellent answer to more balanced teams in the early game where spikes are up, dent a Snorlax, and sweep. Finally, Substitute Suicune demolishes stall teams that don't carry Roar Zapdos or a Perish Song user.

***Jellicent**** · Jun 25th, 2012, 11:02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Oglemi

Umby you could change it into a typical ADV OU threat list and then we could put in onsite :3

This, pleeeeease!

We could definitely use a 3rd gen threat list onsite, and I think a lot of good discussion could come from such a thread here in RoA ^.^

Umby · Jun 25th, 2012, 11:19:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jack Black

Long time ago me and my brother shrapn3l here, we was makin' a thread down in the Ruins of Alph.
All of a sudden, there shined a shiny Oglemi...in the middle...of the road...

AND HE SAID:

"Turn this OP into a site worthy article...or I'll eat your soul!"

Well me and shrapn3l, we looked at each other, and we each said...

"Okay."

Help me define what a threat is, though...because if we start including more defensive "threats," I only see someone like Regice and Skarmory immediately sticking out. So,

Aerodactyl
Blissey
Celebi
Cloyster?
Dugtrio
Flygon
Forretress (Sucks)
Gengar
Gyarados
Heracross
Jirachi
Magneton
Medicham
Metagross
Milotic
Raikou
Regice
Salamence
Skarmory
Snorlax
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tyranitar
Zapdos

***Oglemi**** · Jun 25th, 2012, 11:33:18 PM

A threat list is whatever you make it to be Umby. The current ones onsite typically have it split up to Offensive threats and Defensive threats, with "threats" defined more loosely (generally a broad overview of the metagame with the most seen mons having a little blurb). If you don't feel that there are that many defensive threats, then you don't have to include very many (Skarmory and Regice, and maybe Blissey stand out as possibilities). Some even go as far as to put a certain mon into both offensive and defensive, depending on the set.

homsar · Jun 25th, 2012, 11:34:14 PM

I personally feel that salamence isn't a top 10 threat any more especially when the most common set I see on it is wish/fb/protect/toxic. Then again it can be seen as a "threat" in a completely different light in terms of defensive/stalling usage as opposed to its offensive usage in the past.

Also I think slaking should be top 5 ;D

Danilo · Jun 26th, 2012, 12:13:29 AM

This is the list you wrote in article fashion
you'll need add a format like this: Deoxys-D
Type: Psychic
Base Stats: 50 HP / 70 Atk / 160 Def / 70 SpA / 160 SpD / 90 Spe
Ability: Pressure
in addition to everything else i have that you can copy and paste.

...

#10 - Metagross

metagross very rarely ends up being a huge threat on its own, since things like milotic, swampert and forretress are on every team, but it is the reason that every team needs a bulky water, even more so than the likes of aerodactyl, tyranitar, and salamence, who have other counters in pokemon like claydol. even skarmory, whose only real threats to metagross are impending spikes and whirlwind or roar, is rather susceptible to attack boosts or even crits when taking powerful choice banded meteor mashes. the most threatening thing about metagross is certainly explosion. metagross rarely pulls off a sweep on its own, but it is incredibly good at clearing the way for one of your other threats to get off a sweep. explosion can pave the way for a sweep by itself, but given metagross's solid special attack the susceptibility of some of its counters hidden power grass and fire, metagross is often capable of using the threat of explosion to tear apart half of a team with a mixed set by the time it's blown up. using lum berry to feign the common choice band set can help you get an easy kill on any gengar that tries to stay in to will o wisp you or tries take advantage of seeming choice banded earthquakes. metagross is also capable of using STAB psychic or pursuit to get gengar out of the way. hidden power fire can land a surprise ohko on forretress or a 2hko on skarmory. hidden power grass is a clean 2hko on swampert. after getting rid of metagross's other counters with hidden power and/or magneton support, metagross is free to blow up on something else, likely a celebi or a zapdos trying to tank meteor mashes and wear you down. with important and common defensive pokemon like zapdos, gengar, swampert, celebi, and skarmory out of the way, something like salamence or gyarados will have a much easier time with the opponent's team. of course, due to its excellent typing and stats, metagross also provides your team with important resistances to rock, flying, and normal attacks, and because of the threat of explosion and/or choice banded meteor mashes, it has an easy time scaring off common threats like celebi and curselax, making metagross a great fit for many teams as an efficient offensive threat and a solid defensive component.

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#9 - Aerodactyl

Think of a faster Salamence but it's only good at one thing, though it does it well. Choice Band Aerodactyl is a very peculiar threat in that it forces teams to carry Swampert (perhaps moreso than Tyranitar does) or keep Jirachi or Metagross alive for as long as possible. STABed Rock Slide has that much of an impact on the game, and it starts getting spooky when your Skarmory or Flygon can't deal with all the flinches later in the game. A team can be prepared for Aerodactyl, even with such Pokemon as Suicune and Milotic, but one must always keep that 30% flinch rate in mind, as it really is a game changer and Aero's claim to fame.

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#8 - Dugtrio

Dugtrio is a threat because it can trap and destroy other threats. This is quite important, since Raikou, Tyranitar, Heracross, Celebi, Metagross, and Jirachi are all pretty dangerous/clutch sweepers, and once Dugtrio finds away in (prediction, revenge kill, or Raikou Thunderbolt/Calm Mind) it can just ruin their day. Cleaning up Pokemon who are low on health is not a bad deal either, since Arena Trap forces them to take the damage, even if they could switch out and recover their health later. On its own, Dugtrio is nothing special, with its only outstanding stat being Speed, but those that can be trapped and killed by it must be wary of it if it prematurely makes itself known.

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#7 - Salamence

A good offensive base stat distribution, a good offensive movepool, and access Dragon Dance is all that's really needed to make this guy a relevant threat. But what's really cool about Salamence is how much control it can potentially take over the pacing of a game. It's typing gives it a wide array of resistances to switch in on with Intimidate backing it up on taking physical hits, and when it goes come in, the decisions the opponent has to make in dealing with it can often roll in your favor. In the same, general way the onslaught of offensive Celebi/Jirachi/Suicune (ala JabbaTheGriffin) can whittle down special walls, Salamence begins chipping away at counters it shares with physical attackers like Metagross and Tyranitar. Thus the counter has to do its best to stay healthy, from which you can make relatively easier predictions and keep the opponent checked. It's not as overbearing as Tyranitar and Celebi have become, but it's good at keeping the pressure on.

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#6 - Snorlax

Snorlax has fallen a bit from its original glory, what with the common Sand Stream negating Leftovers recovery, thus hindering its prowess (somewhat) as a special wall, but any team not equipped to handle it will find themselves tumbling on a downhill slope. The existence Snorlax's premier Curse set forces every team to have at least one way of dealing with it, as by the time of the second Curse, if you haven't scared it off already, it's probably too late. The problem with this set is that you're forced to choose between Earthquake and Shadow Ball as secondary attacks-
One leaves it helpless against Gengar while one leaves it at the mercy of Metagross, Tyranitar, and Jirachi. That said, Snorlax has just enough options to add a bit of mixup to its role via Fire Blast and Selfdestruct. In this, it can act as somewhat of a lure for destroying shared counters and clearing a path for another member of your team, similar to HP Grass Metagross or Tyranitar. Either way, Snorlax is just one of those Pokemon that you MUST be prepared to handle, as it's longevity and big Attack stat allows it cause big dents in a team and Curse can quickly make it impenetrable.

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#5 - Suicune

Suicune's been a big guy even since the earlier days of ADV, known for having "NO WEAK" once it gets rolling with a few Calm Minds. Traditionally it functions as a wall, given nice a nice defensive distribution in its base stats and defensive tools like Reflect and Roar. Calm Mind helps make it a special tank while simultaneously making it an offensive threat even to those that would be its counters (it shrugs off attacks from Snorlax and can Roar it out, outstalls Blissey, Regice won't stand a chance without Psych Up, and Celebi might have to deal with Ice Beam). In recent times, however, its offensive prowess has contributed to shaking up the metagame. Factor in great bulk that shines even without a defensive spread, a decent speed stat, and a common habit for Zapdos to run well below Suicune's max speed, and an offensive-oriented Suicune can be quite tough to deal with. Having such great defenses also allows for it to be a particular pain with 101 HP Substitutes. Once it finds an opportunity to switch in on something like a Water type, it can sub up to avoid potential status and begin to wreak havoc.

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#4 - Jirachi

Offensively, Jirachi is just as dangerous, if not moreso, as Celebi. With the same base stats, Jirachi gets the edge on offensive Calm Mind sets with an extensive special move pool (Read as: It gets Thunder/Thunderbolt and the elemental punches). Its Steel typing also allows it to switch in on different set of threats and attacks, like Choice Banded HP Flyings and Rock Slides from Aerodactyl or Salamence. It's also got tools to play a supportive role via Wish, Light Screen, Reflect, and Thunder Wave, if those are the kind of tools your team needs to succeed. Celebi tends to be more valuable for a greater level of versatility, however.

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#3 - Celebi

Celebi is...versatile. On defense it can deter certain threats, like Snorlax or Suicune, with Leech and makes somewhat of a special tank when it can set up with Calm Mind. Reflect and Heal Beal also make a team player. Switch it over to offense, however, and it's a whole new ball game. Baton Pass allows it to scout for threats, lure in Pokemon for Magneton or Dugtrio to trap, as well as pass 101 HP Substitutes, Calm Minds, or Swords Dances to strong offenders. It can even stand alone with the popular iteration of Calm Mind/Psychic/Giga Drain/HP Fire, a set that has shown particular success against many a TSS team and is hard to stop if you let it get rolling. If there's anything else to say, for every weakness Celebi has to exploit, it's got good base stats and just as many resistances to take advantage of to get it in safely and pose a threat.

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#2 - Gengar

Infamous for being unpredictable, Gengar stays true to this creed to be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in OU, especially with the rise in Giga Drain and Will-O-Wisp usage. Gengar's big SAtk allows it to do the kind of damage some Pokemon get with the same attacks when they are STABed and gets a number of cool immunities and resistances to make up for its frail defenses. On top of being a premiere special attacker and causing havoc with indirect moves like Taunt and Destiny Bond, it can even use Explosion to get rid of special walls. Gengar's a mixed bag that doesn't lose efficiency through spreading out its repertoire and you never know what it's going to do.

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#1 - Tyranitar

True to its name, there's no question that this is the king of ADV OU. It's got power. It's got a great movepool. It's got a unique typing that offers it a number of key resistances. It's got the Sand Stream ability to hinder Leftovers recovery and screw over Endure strategies. Tyranitar is equipped with many tools to create a successful environment for itself and the team it's integrated to while making life hard for the opposing team. Sure, it has its counters, but with so many viable movesets, it can be as unpredictable as Gengar, and you may just cost yourself a Pokemon just trying to figure out what it's going to do. These factors are one of a few reasons why Dugtrio still has a job.

shrapn3l · Jun 26th, 2012, 12:21:59 AM

wishmence is really uncommon right now :x cb mence is everywhere. wishmence IS very good though and it's still a pretty significant threat when it is used.

**M Dragon** · Jun 26th, 2012, 5:21:16 AM

The most common threats:

Huge threats:
-Tyranitar
-Suicune
-Celebi
-Gengar
-Salamence
-Jirachi
-Metagross
-Zapdos
-Swampert
-Dugtrio
-Snorlax
-Heracross
-Skarmory
-Blissey

Big threats (not in a particular order):
-Milotic
-Aerodactyl
-Gyarados
-Raikou
-Starmie
-Flygon
-Regice
-Medicham
-Jolteon
-Dragonite
-Blaziken
-Magneton
-Forretress
-Claydol
-Slaking
-Cloyster
-Houndoom
-Sceptile
-Dusclops
-Vaporeon
-Porygon2

Maybe I missed some threat, or some threat shouldnt be there

Umby · Jun 26th, 2012, 11:59:17 AM

Weeeeee new OP. Will gradually edit things in. Feel free to write stuff up/suggest changes.

Triangles · Jun 26th, 2012, 1:37:03 PM

...

There was once Gyarados here, but I'm a retard and for some reason I didn't realise it had been written already. I kept it in hide tags though. Oh good - just noticed Umby let it in anyway.
Nonetheless, here's Dusclops!

Dusclops
Abilities: Pressure
Base Stats: 40 HP / 70 Atk / 130 Def / 60 SpA / 130 SpD / 25 Spe

Description
The bulkiest spinblocker in ADV OU, Dusclops is a staple on dedicated stall teams with its excellent all-round tanking, and good ability in Pressure. Dusclops can spread status with Will-O-Wisp as well a handy tool for reducing the effectiveness of physical attackers. With Shadow Ball, Dusclops is also a good answer to Gengar and Starmie as well. However, the bandaged spinblocker is easily Pursuited for large amounts of damage by threats such as Houndoom and the abundant Tyranitar, and is also vulnerable to the common Sandstorm and Spikes. It is also unfortunately set-up fodder for the likes of Calm Mind Suicune and Jirachi due to its low offensive prowess and lack of phazing moves. Overall Dusclops is no major offensive threat to teams, apart from the rare and very underrated Calm Mind set, but it can wall many threats and prevent Rapid Spinners from doing their job.

Vaporeon :3

Vaporeon
Abilities: Water Absorb
Base Stats: 130 HP / 65 Atk / 60 Def / 110 SpA / 95 SpD / 65 Spe

Description
Despite its excellent base 110 Special Attack stat, Vaporeon sees its best use as a WishPassing defensive pivot, (due to its awesome 130 base HP and ability in Water Absorb), used to provide support for teams with powerful attackers that lack reliable recovery, such as Choice Banders in a general sense. Vaporeon is a good answer to the likes of Metagross and Houndoom, and can also switch in on other Waters such as Swampert and Milotic and either poison them with Toxic, or set up free Wishes to pass on. Unlike other bulky Waters, however, it is quite vulnerable to repeated barrage or Rock Slides from Tyranitar due to its comparatively poorer physical bulk. The aquatic kitty is also vulnerable to status as well, and a Toxic-poisoned Vaporeon is not half as effective as it usually would be.

Houndoom
Abilities: Flash Fire / Early Bird
Base Stats: 75 HP / 90 Atk / 50 Def / 110 SpA / 80 SDef / 90 Spe

Description

Houndoom's primary use in the ADV OU metagame is to trap threats such as Celebi, Gengar, Dusclops, and Alakazam with Pursuit and remove them from the game to either open the opposing team up to a threatening sweeper, or remove spinblockers so that Rapid Spinners such as Forretress can do their job successfully. Houndoom forms an excellent partnership with Forretress, in that Forretress baits Fire-type attacks for Houndoom to gain a Flash Fire boost from, and Houndoom removes spinblockers so that Forretress can successfully do its job of removing hazards from the field. However Houndoom struggles against Bulky Waters not named Swampert (it decimates that with Hidden Power Grass) and is also trapped and killed by the common Dugtrio. Without Will-O-Wisp, Houndoom will also struggle a lot against Gyarados and Salamence (although the latter dies to the rarer Hidden Power Ice). Will-O-Wisp, Counter, and some correct defensive investment can also create a suprise kill on Tyranitar.

shrapn3l · Jun 26th, 2012, 1:45:35 PM

i'll probs write up a few pokemon at some point during the day. but also mention recover on milotic imo

Triangles · Jun 26th, 2012, 5:34:13 PM

Guys, could we have a general consensus as to whether Jolteon and Moltres should be listed as threats? It would be interesting to get the opinions of some other old gen players. Personally I'm for both of them going on that list but there may be a differing general consensus.

Umby · Jun 26th, 2012, 8:11:35 PM

Someone rewrite Zapdos for me.

edit: And Aerodactyl and Raikou.

rekt · Jul 8th, 2012, 11:53:56 AM

Is there a place/program where you guys play ADV? I haven't touched Pokemon since DP came out and I really don't feel like learning it or the other new stuff, but playing some ADV when I'm bored seems pretty fun.

also yeah this is really off topic but i dont want to make a new thread just to ask this, and i feel like every time i check this website the simulator that people are using to battle changes so I really have no idea.

shrapn3l · Jul 8th, 2012, 1:30:30 PM

you can play adv on pokemon online rekt.

also i think jolteon should certainly make the list but moltres is... debatable. jolteon is pretty common and good at what it does, and can also wish, phaze, and is a decent switch-in to things like zapdos and gengar.

Triangles · Jul 9th, 2012, 1:56:44 PM

The main niches that Jolteon has over other Electrics, such as Raikou, are the ability to Baton Pass Substitutes, Speed boosts, or simply "dry pass" to a threat to whatever switches in on it, and also its ability Volt Absorb, which gives it more opportunities to switch in on Thunderbolts throughout the game. Jolteon makes a good switch-in to the likes of Gengar and Zapdos, and also is able to counter Raikou with Roar - Roar is a move to watch out for on Jolteon because of the amount of switches that Jolteon forces, and as such its excellence at quickly racking up Spikes damage. Jolteon can also support its team with Wish. However, Jolteon is affected by all forms of passive damage and status, and also lacks overall bulk, so it often struggles to last in longer, slower-paced games. Overall, Jolteon is a very dangerous Pokemon with both offensive and supporting prowess.

Kaisser · Jul 9th, 2012, 2:57:52 PM

I agree with shrapn3l. Jolteon still being a good threat with a 110 base SpA and a good STAB move such as T-Bolt, beating all water types, including Swampert, if Jolteon has HP grass, a common move for him. Moreover, remember that Jolteon is probably one of the best sub-passers, if not the best, and a great transition pokemon por mind games.

Regards, Kaisser.

Jun 25th, 2012, 1:02:35 PM	#52
Danilo Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,713 http://justsmogonthings.tumblr.com/	Magneton O_o Defensive Threats 1. Zapdos- RestTalk + Spikes is nuts. Good defensive typing, hits hard with Tbolt, walls Metagross, checks Gengar, Celebi, Water-types, HP Rockless Gyarados, and more 2. Swampert- forces a ton of Pokemon to run HP Grass if they even want to touch Pert without exploding. 3. Snorlax- walls nearly all special attackers while still being threatening with Curse 4. Suicune- similar to Snorlax but in exchange for better typing Suicune losses the ability to check Tyranitar and Salamence over time due to the lack of reliable recovery. 5. Celebi- walls a ton of stuff. Has access to Perish Song and Heal Bell. Can be an offensive supporter with Calm Mind, Psychic, Leech Seed, Recover. 6. Blissey- Walls all special attackers. The Calm Mind set is good. 7. Skarmory- checks all physical attackers, sets up Spikes, whirlwinds. Not much of an offensive threat though so it isn't a counter to anything, :( 8. Forretress- actually doesn't beat anything but it's a great defensive pivot and is easily the best Rapid Spin user in the tier. 9. Claydol- is an excellent check to Tyranitar, and a good check to Salamence and Flygon. Can beat Gengar with Psychic on a switch. Rapid Spin is great. 10. Milotic- Checks Salamence and Metagross. Okay check to Ttar. Good ability, great typing, and access to Recover. __________________ kael: =\\ kael: fuck kael: pako kael: I WANT DESTROY HE kael: HE DON'T RESPECT ME

Jun 25th, 2012, 2:49:15 PM	#53
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 149 JERSEY	drill peck makes skarm a hard counter to heracross and gyarados, which is significant because only a handful of pokemon are hard counters to either of them. also i wouldn't say forretress is the best spinner in the game, since it isn't spinning at all if it doesn't have a teammate that can pursuit gengar... starmie is the best spinner. list seems fine though. just nitpicks __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Jun 25th, 2012, 3:15:55 PM	#54
*JabbaTheGriffin Kid just rages for a while Super Moderator** Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,845 you get sloppy drunk, i stay whiskey neat	I don't personally think there is any way Gengar is the 2nd biggest threat in the metagame. Best it can do is stop spin and fire off some unboosted, unstabbed attacks. It's definitely something you have to take into consideration when team building (which can be remedied as simply as running pursuit ttar), but even teams I've made where all 6 mons are hit SE by the normal attacking moves of gengar don't have much of a problem with it. I've always had a bit of a bias against Gengar though, as I've thought it was trash since the first day I played ADV. So my opinion probably isn't as useful as someone who actually consistently uses gengar. __________________

Jun 25th, 2012, 3:56:06 PM	#55
jrrrrrrr wubwubwub Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,117 wubwubwub	Gengar is a top-tier attacker but I have to agree with Jabba. It just can't sweep on it's own. At best it will force a couple of switches but any decently made team already has plenty of ways of dealing with it. It's highly situational. Even things like Celebi and Zapdos who are weak to one of its main attacks can switch in and beat it handily. Not to mention the popularity of Swampert Jirachi and Tyranitar __________________ NIGMAN: JRRRR IS A SHIT NIGMAN: HO ESLE THINK IT??

Jun 25th, 2012, 6:25:15 PM	#57
Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~ Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,502 I'm gonna bury you with my sound~	Wat. I never said I had anything against Celebi. I think it's a pretty cool Pokemon. But I rarely, while defending against it, feel as threatened by it as I would against Heracross. But again, that's just me. Different playstyles/team building habits may lead to different experiences. Gengar's threat is not particularly due to its sweeping prowess but more so how much risk you take in dealing with it. It may not destroy a ton of things out the gate, but it has many tools to cripple its own counters and a layer of unpredictability to mask the fact in battle. Naturally that means you might want to feel it out for its moves so you don't take unnecessary damage, but whether you do or don't, you may lose a number of resources in the process. Now, some people may not see that as such a huge deal, but I think that also has to deal with playstyles and how one normally builds their teams. I forgot why I put it above Celebi, but I did try and ask what you guys thought about that line up before I edited the OP. D: Urgggh...it'd be extra work, but should we just change it to a threat list in general without restricting it to top 10? __________________ Last edited by Umby; Jun 25th, 2012 at 6:44:46 PM.

Jun 25th, 2012, 11:31:56 AM	#51
-Absol- Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11	zapdos suicune ttar celebi jirachi metagross gengar dugtrio snorlax magneton

Jun 25th, 2012, 8:53:59 PM	#58
*Oglemi I crashed my car into the bridge, I don't care Super Moderator** Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,502 ~(^.^)~	Umby you could change it into a typical ADV OU threat list and then we could put in onsite :3 __________________ <shade> what an intense scrotum

Jun 25th, 2012, 8:58:50 PM	#59
Danilo Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,713 http://justsmogonthings.tumblr.com/	The top 3 for me need to be Ttar, Celebi, and Suicune. Suicune is just so much more threatening than Gengar. It has excellent stats, a great movepool, and can just sweep unprepared teams with ease. Even prepared teams have trouble with last Pokemon CroCune, who demolishes more offensive teams if they can't explode on it. Offensive cune is an excellent answer to more balanced teams in the early game where spikes are up, dent a Snorlax, and sweep. Finally, Substitute Suicune demolishes stall teams that don't carry Roar Zapdos or a Perish Song user. __________________ kael: =\\ kael: fuck kael: pako kael: I WANT DESTROY HE kael: HE DON'T RESPECT ME

Jun 25th, 2012, 11:33:18 PM	#62
*Oglemi I crashed my car into the bridge, I don't care Super Moderator** Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,502 ~(^.^)~	A threat list is whatever you make it to be Umby. The current ones onsite typically have it split up to Offensive threats and Defensive threats, with "threats" defined more loosely (generally a broad overview of the metagame with the most seen mons having a little blurb). If you don't feel that there are that many defensive threats, then you don't have to include very many (Skarmory and Regice, and maybe Blissey stand out as possibilities). Some even go as far as to put a certain mon into both offensive and defensive, depending on the set. __________________ <shade> what an intense scrotum

Jun 25th, 2012, 11:34:14 PM	#63
homsar Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 86 toronto, ontario	I personally feel that salamence isn't a top 10 threat any more especially when the most common set I see on it is wish/fb/protect/toxic. Then again it can be seen as a "threat" in a completely different light in terms of defensive/stalling usage as opposed to its offensive usage in the past. Also I think slaking should be top 5 ;D

Jun 26th, 2012, 12:13:29 AM	#64
Danilo Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,713 http://justsmogonthings.tumblr.com/	This is the list you wrote in article fashion you'll need add a format like this: Deoxys-D Type: Psychic Base Stats: 50 HP / 70 Atk / 160 Def / 70 SpA / 160 SpD / 90 Spe Ability: Pressure in addition to everything else i have that you can copy and paste. ... #10 - Metagross metagross very rarely ends up being a huge threat on its own, since things like milotic, swampert and forretress are on every team, but it is the reason that every team needs a bulky water, even more so than the likes of aerodactyl, tyranitar, and salamence, who have other counters in pokemon like claydol. even skarmory, whose only real threats to metagross are impending spikes and whirlwind or roar, is rather susceptible to attack boosts or even crits when taking powerful choice banded meteor mashes. the most threatening thing about metagross is certainly explosion. metagross rarely pulls off a sweep on its own, but it is incredibly good at clearing the way for one of your other threats to get off a sweep. explosion can pave the way for a sweep by itself, but given metagross's solid special attack the susceptibility of some of its counters hidden power grass and fire, metagross is often capable of using the threat of explosion to tear apart half of a team with a mixed set by the time it's blown up. using lum berry to feign the common choice band set can help you get an easy kill on any gengar that tries to stay in to will o wisp you or tries take advantage of seeming choice banded earthquakes. metagross is also capable of using STAB psychic or pursuit to get gengar out of the way. hidden power fire can land a surprise ohko on forretress or a 2hko on skarmory. hidden power grass is a clean 2hko on swampert. after getting rid of metagross's other counters with hidden power and/or magneton support, metagross is free to blow up on something else, likely a celebi or a zapdos trying to tank meteor mashes and wear you down. with important and common defensive pokemon like zapdos, gengar, swampert, celebi, and skarmory out of the way, something like salamence or gyarados will have a much easier time with the opponent's team. of course, due to its excellent typing and stats, metagross also provides your team with important resistances to rock, flying, and normal attacks, and because of the threat of explosion and/or choice banded meteor mashes, it has an easy time scaring off common threats like celebi and curselax, making metagross a great fit for many teams as an efficient offensive threat and a solid defensive component. ----- #9 - Aerodactyl Think of a faster Salamence but it's only good at one thing, though it does it well. Choice Band Aerodactyl is a very peculiar threat in that it forces teams to carry Swampert (perhaps moreso than Tyranitar does) or keep Jirachi or Metagross alive for as long as possible. STABed Rock Slide has that much of an impact on the game, and it starts getting spooky when your Skarmory or Flygon can't deal with all the flinches later in the game. A team can be prepared for Aerodactyl, even with such Pokemon as Suicune and Milotic, but one must always keep that 30% flinch rate in mind, as it really is a game changer and Aero's claim to fame. ----- #8 - Dugtrio Dugtrio is a threat because it can trap and destroy other threats. This is quite important, since Raikou, Tyranitar, Heracross, Celebi, Metagross, and Jirachi are all pretty dangerous/clutch sweepers, and once Dugtrio finds away in (prediction, revenge kill, or Raikou Thunderbolt/Calm Mind) it can just ruin their day. Cleaning up Pokemon who are low on health is not a bad deal either, since Arena Trap forces them to take the damage, even if they could switch out and recover their health later. On its own, Dugtrio is nothing special, with its only outstanding stat being Speed, but those that can be trapped and killed by it must be wary of it if it prematurely makes itself known. ----- #7 - Salamence A good offensive base stat distribution, a good offensive movepool, and access Dragon Dance is all that's really needed to make this guy a relevant threat. But what's really cool about Salamence is how much control it can potentially take over the pacing of a game. It's typing gives it a wide array of resistances to switch in on with Intimidate backing it up on taking physical hits, and when it goes come in, the decisions the opponent has to make in dealing with it can often roll in your favor. In the same, general way the onslaught of offensive Celebi/Jirachi/Suicune (ala JabbaTheGriffin) can whittle down special walls, Salamence begins chipping away at counters it shares with physical attackers like Metagross and Tyranitar. Thus the counter has to do its best to stay healthy, from which you can make relatively easier predictions and keep the opponent checked. It's not as overbearing as Tyranitar and Celebi have become, but it's good at keeping the pressure on. ----- #6 - Snorlax Snorlax has fallen a bit from its original glory, what with the common Sand Stream negating Leftovers recovery, thus hindering its prowess (somewhat) as a special wall, but any team not equipped to handle it will find themselves tumbling on a downhill slope. The existence Snorlax's premier Curse set forces every team to have at least one way of dealing with it, as by the time of the second Curse, if you haven't scared it off already, it's probably too late. The problem with this set is that you're forced to choose between Earthquake and Shadow Ball as secondary attacks- One leaves it helpless against Gengar while one leaves it at the mercy of Metagross, Tyranitar, and Jirachi. That said, Snorlax has just enough options to add a bit of mixup to its role via Fire Blast and Selfdestruct. In this, it can act as somewhat of a lure for destroying shared counters and clearing a path for another member of your team, similar to HP Grass Metagross or Tyranitar. Either way, Snorlax is just one of those Pokemon that you MUST be prepared to handle, as it's longevity and big Attack stat allows it cause big dents in a team and Curse can quickly make it impenetrable. ----- #5 - Suicune Suicune's been a big guy even since the earlier days of ADV, known for having "NO WEAK" once it gets rolling with a few Calm Minds. Traditionally it functions as a wall, given nice a nice defensive distribution in its base stats and defensive tools like Reflect and Roar. Calm Mind helps make it a special tank while simultaneously making it an offensive threat even to those that would be its counters (it shrugs off attacks from Snorlax and can Roar it out, outstalls Blissey, Regice won't stand a chance without Psych Up, and Celebi might have to deal with Ice Beam). In recent times, however, its offensive prowess has contributed to shaking up the metagame. Factor in great bulk that shines even without a defensive spread, a decent speed stat, and a common habit for Zapdos to run well below Suicune's max speed, and an offensive-oriented Suicune can be quite tough to deal with. Having such great defenses also allows for it to be a particular pain with 101 HP Substitutes. Once it finds an opportunity to switch in on something like a Water type, it can sub up to avoid potential status and begin to wreak havoc. ----- #4 - Jirachi Offensively, Jirachi is just as dangerous, if not moreso, as Celebi. With the same base stats, Jirachi gets the edge on offensive Calm Mind sets with an extensive special move pool (Read as: It gets Thunder/Thunderbolt and the elemental punches). Its Steel typing also allows it to switch in on different set of threats and attacks, like Choice Banded HP Flyings and Rock Slides from Aerodactyl or Salamence. It's also got tools to play a supportive role via Wish, Light Screen, Reflect, and Thunder Wave, if those are the kind of tools your team needs to succeed. Celebi tends to be more valuable for a greater level of versatility, however. ----- #3 - Celebi Celebi is...versatile. On defense it can deter certain threats, like Snorlax or Suicune, with Leech and makes somewhat of a special tank when it can set up with Calm Mind. Reflect and Heal Beal also make a team player. Switch it over to offense, however, and it's a whole new ball game. Baton Pass allows it to scout for threats, lure in Pokemon for Magneton or Dugtrio to trap, as well as pass 101 HP Substitutes, Calm Minds, or Swords Dances to strong offenders. It can even stand alone with the popular iteration of Calm Mind/Psychic/Giga Drain/HP Fire, a set that has shown particular success against many a TSS team and is hard to stop if you let it get rolling. If there's anything else to say, for every weakness Celebi has to exploit, it's got good base stats and just as many resistances to take advantage of to get it in safely and pose a threat. ----- #2 - Gengar Infamous for being unpredictable, Gengar stays true to this creed to be one of the most dangerous Pokemon in OU, especially with the rise in Giga Drain and Will-O-Wisp usage. Gengar's big SAtk allows it to do the kind of damage some Pokemon get with the same attacks when they are STABed and gets a number of cool immunities and resistances to make up for its frail defenses. On top of being a premiere special attacker and causing havoc with indirect moves like Taunt and Destiny Bond, it can even use Explosion to get rid of special walls. Gengar's a mixed bag that doesn't lose efficiency through spreading out its repertoire and you never know what it's going to do. ----- #1 - Tyranitar True to its name, there's no question that this is the king of ADV OU. It's got power. It's got a great movepool. It's got a unique typing that offers it a number of key resistances. It's got the Sand Stream ability to hinder Leftovers recovery and screw over Endure strategies. Tyranitar is equipped with many tools to create a successful environment for itself and the team it's integrated to while making life hard for the opposing team. Sure, it has its counters, but with so many viable movesets, it can be as unpredictable as Gengar, and you may just cost yourself a Pokemon just trying to figure out what it's going to do. These factors are one of a few reasons why Dugtrio still has a job. __________________ kael: =\\ kael: fuck kael: pako kael: I WANT DESTROY HE kael: HE DON'T RESPECT ME

Jun 26th, 2012, 12:21:59 AM	#65
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 149 JERSEY	wishmence is really uncommon right now :x cb mence is everywhere. wishmence IS very good though and it's still a pretty significant threat when it is used. __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Jun 26th, 2012, 5:21:16 AM	#66
M Dragon The north wind Moderator Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,135	The most common threats: Huge threats: -Tyranitar -Suicune -Celebi -Gengar -Salamence -Jirachi -Metagross -Zapdos -Swampert -Dugtrio -Snorlax -Heracross -Skarmory -Blissey Big threats (not in a particular order): -Milotic -Aerodactyl -Gyarados -Raikou -Starmie -Flygon -Regice -Medicham -Jolteon -Dragonite -Blaziken -Magneton -Forretress -Claydol -Slaking -Cloyster -Houndoom -Sceptile -Dusclops -Vaporeon -Porygon2 Maybe I missed some threat, or some threat shouldnt be there __________________

Jun 26th, 2012, 11:59:17 AM	#67
Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~ Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,502 I'm gonna bury you with my sound~	Weeeeee new OP. Will gradually edit things in. Feel free to write stuff up/suggest changes. __________________

Jun 26th, 2012, 1:37:03 PM	#68
Triangles Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 296 every mie and every yu	... Gyarados Abilities: Intimidate Base Stats: 95 HP / 125 Atk / 79 Def / 60 SpA / 100 SpD / 81 Spe Description It's a physical powerhouse that switches in on bulky Waters. It's a Water-type that switches in on Celebi. It's very predictable, yet many teams fail to prepare adequately for it. It's Gyarados, the Atrocious Pokemon that fits no OU stereotype. Coupled with Magneton (used to trap its No.1 counter Skarmory), Gyarados is one of the most potent physical sweepers in Advance. With Intimidate and good all-around bulk, Gyarados can set up multiple Dragon Dances on many threats and fucntion as an excellent late-game cleaner against almost any team archetype. It can also muscle through its counters through specialised movesets - a weakened Zapdos folds to Hidden Power Rock or Double-Edge. Donphan cowers at Hydro Pump. A weakened Regice fears Hidden Power Rock as well. Overall, Gyarados is an excellent bulky sweeper, and a threat that is not to be ignored when teambuilding. There was once Gyarados here, but I'm a retard and for some reason I didn't realise it had been written already. I kept it in hide tags though. Oh good - just noticed Umby let it in anyway. Nonetheless, here's Dusclops! Dusclops Abilities: Pressure Base Stats: 40 HP / 70 Atk / 130 Def / 60 SpA / 130 SpD / 25 Spe Description The bulkiest spinblocker in ADV OU, Dusclops is a staple on dedicated stall teams with its excellent all-round tanking, and good ability in Pressure. Dusclops can spread status with Will-O-Wisp as well a handy tool for reducing the effectiveness of physical attackers. With Shadow Ball, Dusclops is also a good answer to Gengar and Starmie as well. However, the bandaged spinblocker is easily Pursuited for large amounts of damage by threats such as Houndoom and the abundant Tyranitar, and is also vulnerable to the common Sandstorm and Spikes. It is also unfortunately set-up fodder for the likes of Calm Mind Suicune and Jirachi due to its low offensive prowess and lack of phazing moves. Overall Dusclops is no major offensive threat to teams, apart from the rare and very underrated Calm Mind set, but it can wall many threats and prevent Rapid Spinners from doing their job. Vaporeon :3 Vaporeon Abilities: Water Absorb Base Stats: 130 HP / 65 Atk / 60 Def / 110 SpA / 95 SpD / 65 Spe Description Despite its excellent base 110 Special Attack stat, Vaporeon sees its best use as a WishPassing defensive pivot, (due to its awesome 130 base HP and ability in Water Absorb), used to provide support for teams with powerful attackers that lack reliable recovery, such as Choice Banders in a general sense. Vaporeon is a good answer to the likes of Metagross and Houndoom, and can also switch in on other Waters such as Swampert and Milotic and either poison them with Toxic, or set up free Wishes to pass on. Unlike other bulky Waters, however, it is quite vulnerable to repeated barrage or Rock Slides from Tyranitar due to its comparatively poorer physical bulk. The aquatic kitty is also vulnerable to status as well, and a Toxic-poisoned Vaporeon is not half as effective as it usually would be. Houndoom Abilities: Flash Fire / Early Bird Base Stats: 75 HP / 90 Atk / 50 Def / 110 SpA / 80 SDef / 90 Spe Description Houndoom's primary use in the ADV OU metagame is to trap threats such as Celebi, Gengar, Dusclops, and Alakazam with Pursuit and remove them from the game to either open the opposing team up to a threatening sweeper, or remove spinblockers so that Rapid Spinners such as Forretress can do their job successfully. Houndoom forms an excellent partnership with Forretress, in that Forretress baits Fire-type attacks for Houndoom to gain a Flash Fire boost from, and Houndoom removes spinblockers so that Forretress can successfully do its job of removing hazards from the field. However Houndoom struggles against Bulky Waters not named Swampert (it decimates that with Hidden Power Grass) and is also trapped and killed by the common Dugtrio. Without Will-O-Wisp, Houndoom will also struggle a lot against Gyarados and Salamence (although the latter dies to the rarer Hidden Power Ice). Will-O-Wisp, Counter, and some correct defensive investment can also create a suprise kill on Tyranitar. Last edited by Triangles; Jun 26th, 2012 at 2:59:55 PM. Reason: A DOGE

Jun 26th, 2012, 1:45:35 PM	#69
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 149 JERSEY	i'll probs write up a few pokemon at some point during the day. but also mention recover on milotic imo __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Jun 26th, 2012, 5:34:13 PM	#70
Triangles Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 296 every mie and every yu	Guys, could we have a general consensus as to whether Jolteon and Moltres should be listed as threats? It would be interesting to get the opinions of some other old gen players. Personally I'm for both of them going on that list but there may be a differing general consensus.

Jun 26th, 2012, 8:11:35 PM	#71
Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~ Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,502 I'm gonna bury you with my sound~	Someone rewrite Zapdos for me. edit: And Aerodactyl and Raikou. __________________ Last edited by Umby; Jun 27th, 2012 at 3:39:40 PM.

Jul 8th, 2012, 11:53:56 AM	#72
rekt Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,473 Massachusetts	Is there a place/program where you guys play ADV? I haven't touched Pokemon since DP came out and I really don't feel like learning it or the other new stuff, but playing some ADV when I'm bored seems pretty fun. also yeah this is really off topic but i dont want to make a new thread just to ask this, and i feel like every time i check this website the simulator that people are using to battle changes so I really have no idea.

Jul 8th, 2012, 1:30:30 PM	#73
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 149 JERSEY	you can play adv on pokemon online rekt. also i think jolteon should certainly make the list but moltres is... debatable. jolteon is pretty common and good at what it does, and can also wish, phaze, and is a decent switch-in to things like zapdos and gengar. __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Jul 9th, 2012, 1:56:44 PM	#74
Triangles Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 296 every mie and every yu	The main niches that Jolteon has over other Electrics, such as Raikou, are the ability to Baton Pass Substitutes, Speed boosts, or simply "dry pass" to a threat to whatever switches in on it, and also its ability Volt Absorb, which gives it more opportunities to switch in on Thunderbolts throughout the game. Jolteon makes a good switch-in to the likes of Gengar and Zapdos, and also is able to counter Raikou with Roar - Roar is a move to watch out for on Jolteon because of the amount of switches that Jolteon forces, and as such its excellence at quickly racking up Spikes damage. Jolteon can also support its team with Wish. However, Jolteon is affected by all forms of passive damage and status, and also lacks overall bulk, so it often struggles to last in longer, slower-paced games. Overall, Jolteon is a very dangerous Pokemon with both offensive and supporting prowess. __________________ the results of my attempt at stopping the effects of global warming were anticlimatic. on the bright side, i won the mutation competition and got atrophy. Last edited by Triangles; Jul 9th, 2012 at 2:46:48 PM.

Jul 9th, 2012, 2:57:52 PM	#75
Kaisser Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 16	I agree with shrapn3l. Jolteon still being a good threat with a 110 base SpA and a good STAB move such as T-Bolt, beating all water types, including Swampert, if Jolteon has HP grass, a common move for him. Moreover, remember that Jolteon is probably one of the best sub-passers, if not the best, and a great transition pokemon por mind games. Regards, Kaisser.