The Effect of BW2 on Neverused

[Count Serperior]

I've been really excited over Skill Link Cincinno for one thing:

King's Rock.

Here's what I'll be running:
Flinchino
Skill Link
King's Rock

That tail move
Bullet Seed
Rock Blast
U-turn

If I remember correctly it gives around 40% of flinchin when all 5 hits land?

Yes, I love pissing people off >: ]

[WingedKnight]

Defiant Braviary is indeed found as an interactable Pokemon in White 2. The new ability is nice, even if not as nice as Roost, especially since Keen Eye was good for nothing and Sheer Force was only useful to boost Rock Slide. Defiant will work better on any Roost based sets, just on the off-chance of a stray stat-dropping move.
What kind of set would allow Braviary to use Roost to his fullest potential? It's a great addition, and like people are saying it may just push him over the top due to the options it affords him. I'm just not sure if it works best with Bulk Up and Lefties or perhaps just on a Life Orb set to provide additional staying power.

[Machineae]

Well you could probably use it similarly to Honchkrow. I'm not sure of an exact ev spread because you'll want to figure out whats a major threat and what you have to hit to outspeed then put the rest in HP and attack.

You'd probably go Sub/Roost/Brave Bird/Filler

[DTC]

Defiant Braviary loves Intimidate Pokemon such as Luxray and Tauros. Defensive Luxray used to be one of Braviary's best checks. Now Braviary loves seeing it.

The combination of Stealth Rock + Giga Drain is now legal on Storm Drain Cradily. Cradily also does really well against Pokemon such as Skill Link Cinccino (other than CB U-turn). Maybe Cradily will see more use as a utility Pokemon this meta. It's the only Rock-type that has good stats and Recover, but unfortunately it doesn't resist the Flying-type attacks from Swellow and Braviary, so people will probably choose other Rock-types over it.

Thoughts on Cradily?

[lol95]

Theorymon'ing as it hasn't been implemented on Showdown yet but:

Liepard @Choice Band Ability: Prankster
252HP/ 252Spe/ 4 Def (No idea on the EVs apart from max speed)
Trick
Foul Play
Taunt/ Encore
Thunder Wave

Unless I've got it horribly wrong Foul Play uses the opponents attack stat, meaning that tricking a Choice Band and then using Foul Play would do a decent amount to a few things. Taunt is useful to stop set ups, Encore could work if you want to lock something into a move more than once. Thunder Wave is just there for para-hax annoyance.

I'm fairly new to NU but if this set works like I think it would, is it a decent set?

[Machineae]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

Defiant Braviary loves Intimidate Pokemon such as Luxray and Tauros. Defensive Luxray used to be one of Braviary's best checks. Now Braviary loves seeing it.

The combination of Stealth Rock + Giga Drain is now legal on Storm Drain Cradily. Cradily also does really well against Pokemon such as Skill Link Cinccino (other than CB U-turn). Maybe Cradily will see more use as a utility Pokemon this meta. It's the only Rock-type that has good stats and Recover, but unfortunately it doesn't resist the Flying-type attacks from Swellow and Braviary, so people will probably choose other Rock-types over it.

Thoughts on Cradily?

I used Cradily a ton in the past few months but haven't used in a few weeks. I completely forgot it would be getting Giga Drain+SR with Storm Drain. Cradily should definitely see more exposure as it will beat Carracosta (which is going to be gaining popularity) and all the other ground/rock/water types that we're going to see in the tier.

0SpAtk Cradily (Neutral) Giga Drain vs 252HP/0SpDef Solid Rock Carracosta (Neutral): 82% - 98% (291 - 345 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

I haven't seen anyone run SpD ev's on Carra so I'd say its an accurate calculation. Cradily is also faster so yeah :X


A set like this will be useful-

Cradily (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Rock]/Toxic

[TLCJR4LIFE]

I'm so upset that Bullet Seed wasn't a tutor move. I wanted my Water Absorb + Bullet Seed Cacturne.


On the other hand, I'll be trying out Magmar now that it has gotten Clear Smog...with the incoming boosters like Swoobat and Serperior, Eviolite Magmar should be a handy check for most of them.....and it's incredibly bulky on the special defensive side with respectable offensive stats.

[b2j135]

Hows this look?

Braviary @ Leftovers/Life orb
Ability: Defiant
EV 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 Def/SpD/HP (I dunno)
Adamant/Jolly
- Bulk Up/Substitute
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Superpower

[erisia]

Something that I've realised now is, thanks to the tutors, Armaldo can now use Aqua Tail alongside Swift Swim, which makes me think a Rain-offensive set could be viable.

Armaldo (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge / Rock Blast
- Earthquake / Superpower
- Aqua Tail
- X-Scissor / Rapid Spin

This thing is potent as hell when Rain Dance is up, and it's certainly not short on coverage. Aqua Tail hits things like Golem, Sawk, Gurdurr and Regirock harder than Armaldo's other options, and is generally more powerful than X-Scissor while Rain is up. Superpower is also legal, and you can use it over Earthquake if you want to hit Normal-types harder. The best aspect of Swift Swim Armaldo is that it hits hard from the physical side, something which few others in the tier can boast, although this is kind of moot with Cryogonal being so likely to leave.

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

Defiant Braviary loves Intimidate Pokemon such as Luxray and Tauros. Defensive Luxray used to be one of Braviary's best checks. Now Braviary loves seeing it.

Wrong, Luxray was an easy 2HKO for Braviary with hazards support that it should always have, making it a shaky check at best. And for Tauros, unless Tauros is running bulk that less than 8% of Tauros might actually use, it is asking to be killed in action by Braviary.

Calcs:
Luxray

...

---

Return: 147-174 (40.38 - 47.8%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes. Is not like this is hard to keep up at all.

Tauros

...

---

Brave Bird: 216-255 (73.97 - 87.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. This is obviously assuming Braviary doesn't go for the Superpower as soon you see a Tauros on the opposing team.

Just for this post, I have the mighty 8 pokemon that have Intimidate and how they fare against Braviary:

• Arbok: It is trying to die if tries to come in on anything that is not Superpower, if Braviary U-turns out it does nothing. Oh, forgot something, this is extremely rare.
• Granbull: Fucked by Brave Bird, and Superpower. Also, see Arbok
• Luxray: Already explained. And this is not even common.
• Masquerain: Do I really need to explain this one?
• Mawile: Even after the drop, Superpower OHKOES.
• Mightyena:This prefers Moxie on all its sets.
• Stanler: Is this thing even used? Brave Bird, Return, and Superpower deal with it, drop or not.
• Tauros: Already explained

And random drops is just being too paranaoid, and in most battles there will rarely be at least a drop that is not self inflicted.

TL;DR: Defiant on Braviary is pointless, I know his other abilities are awful as well, but because the three of them are so bad it doesn't matter what ability it picks.

[alexwolf]

You assume both SR + Spikes and that Braviary will chose Return though. If Luxray was able to come into it's best spamming move, and it's best coverage move, then it means that he was a solid check.

Now with Defiant? Everything dies! Brave Bird 2hkoes Defensive Luxary unconditionally and Return ohkoes after SR, while U-turn does ~45%.

Pretty useful if you ask me...

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

You assume both SR + Spikes and that Braviary will chose Return though. If Luxray was able to come into it's[LIST]
best spamming move, and it's best coverage move, then it means that he was a solid check.

Now with Defiant? Everything dies! Brave Bird 2hkoes Defensive Luxary unconditionally and Return ohkoes after SR, while U-turn does ~45%.

Pretty useful if you ask me...

Recoil move on a SR weak mon is far from reliable spamming move, Return is the best spamming move as it has no drawbacks, and besides it is dumb to spam Brave Bird until all resists are gone given Braviary's SR weaknesss.

From last month stats:

EVs | 13.8 | 252 HP / 252 Def

It is not even Luxray most common set, and Luxray itself is insanely rare

| 86 | Luxray | 990 | 2.279% | 848 | 2.311% |

This is far from useful, if Luxray was common i.e Top 20, then maybe Defiant would be useful, but as it is Defiant is hardly different to his other abilities in being useful.

[Axa]

Keep in mind that Defiant still works on things other than Intimidate- for instance, Braviary no longer has to fear Memento, and other random moves like Rock Tomb.

[DTC]

Trop, did I ever fucking claim that Defiant makes Braviary so much better? Did I ever say that Defiant is a great boon to Braviary? No - I didn't - so don't respond to my post as if I claimed either of those things. I don't care if there aren't a lot of Intimidate users in NU and if they don't do well against Braviary. I talked about what Defiant is useful for, not how useful it is.

I'm also going to have to disagree with you when you say that defensive Luxray isn't one of the best Braviary checks. For one, you calced Adamant Braviary's Return against Defensive Luxray. Adamant Braviary loses the ability to outspeed threats such as Gardevoir, 252 Speed Samurott, and Absol, as well as a few various other threats (don't get me wrong though: Adamant Braviary is still legit). Two, most of Braviary's checks are flawed like Luxray as well: Braviary can break through them, which is why they are called checks and not counters. Luxray, unlike most other checks, won't get OHKO'd or lose massive health from Braviary's strongest move. It simply gets 2HKO'd by Adamant Braviary after SR and Spikes from one move. Spikes are also on less than 20% teams, and Cryogonal are all over the place to spin them. Spikes aren't magically up all of the time. I don't know why you brought up the usage argument either: the fact that Luxray isn't used much doesn't mean it's any less of a good Braviary check. Its problems with other Pokemon doesn't lessen its ability to check Braviary. The fact that it isn't used much doesn't affect its ability to check Braviary.

Also, from personal experience, Brave Bird is usually the better move to spam on Braviary because of the extra power, the fact that it actually hits common walls such as Amoonguss and Tangela super effectively and the presence of Ghost-types such as Misdreavus, Drifblim, and Haunter. If none of them are on the opposing team, of course Return would be the better move to spam. You look at the opposing team then decide what move to use; you don't just spam one move all of the time.

[Endorfins]

Okay, Defiant is better but not much better. Roost is a much bigger deal than Defiant for Braviary anyway. Speaking of which, Braviary actually has very decent bulk when invested and with Roost, it can keep itself healthy. Has anyone tried a specially defensive Bulk Up set with Roost / Bulk Up / Brave Bird / Substitute or Superpower? Seems like it could be a decent bulky sweeper.

Another mon which got a great buff in BW2 and Dream World is Liepard, Prankster Encore on something that can setup is a godsend. Liepard can shut down almost anything and can setup on half the metagame if played correctly. Unlike Cottonee and Volbeat, Liepard can actually setup for a sweep, and with the new Dark Pulse move tutor, it no longer has to use Snarl as a STAB move. Definitely something to watch out for once its Dream World ability gets released.

[Molk]

a Pokemon that stands out to me at the moment is Zangoose, Zangoose was originally pretty mediocre, outclassed by things like ursaring and kangaskhan, but all of that has changed now, Toxic boost Zangoose is here and its ready to make all walls cower in fear before it. If you didnt already know, Toxic Boost is essentially guts, except it only work s when your pokemon is poisoned. This is a huge boost for Zangoose, with its already high base 115 attack stat, swords dance, excellent coverage, priority, and a good base 90 speed to outrun a fair amount of the metagame, not to mention that due to its normal typing, Zangoose has a base 210 power stab move coming off of an insane attack stat. To make matters worse, Zangoose can boost its attack stat even further with Swords Dance, at this point literally no relevant wall can take a hit from it (it can even OHKO Tangela after rocks!). This means that Zangoose can only be revenge killed after its toxic orb activates. I think that this set will be most popular.

(ik cigar is backwards)

Zangoose (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Toxic Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Close Combat
- Shadow Claw / Quick Attack


Facade is your strongest attack after your toxic orb activates, and its insanely powerful, being able to 2HKO most of the metagame at LEAST. Close Combat gives Zangoose a handy weapon against things such as bastiodon, regirock, carracosta, and klang, and is zangoose's strongest attack before its toxic orb activates. Shadow Claw is Zangoose's main way to hit ghost-types such as misdreavus and frillish, OHKOing them after a swords dance boost, Quick attack allows zangoose to pick off potential revenge killers like absol and sawk before they can kill it, but leaves zangoose completely walled by ghost types. Swords Dance boosts Zangoose's attack to monsturous levels, everything that could take an attack before cannot survive a boosted facade after rocks at this point, Zangoose is frail, though so it could only be safely used on the switch or vs something like misdreavus is you are poisoned.

Calcs:

+2 zangoose facade vs 252/252+ eviolite tangela: 987 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (140 Base Power): 274 - 324 (82.04% - 97.01%) 60% chance to OHKO after rocks

+2 zangoose facade vs 252/252+ alomomola: 987 Atk vs 284 Def & 534 HP (140 Base Power): 522 - 615 (97.75% - 115.17%) OHKO after rocks.

+0 zangoose facade vs 252/0 eviolite gurdurr: 493 Atk vs 309 Def & 374 HP (140 Base Power): 240 - 283 (64.17% - 75.67%) if you close combat on the switch the first time it comes in before your orb activates, that damage+ 2 rounds of rocks can KO it.

+0 zangoose Shadow Claw vs 252/252+ eviolite misdreavus: 493 Atk vs 360 Def & 324 HP (70 Base Power): 138 - 164 (42.59% - 50.62%) 94% chance to 2hko after rocks, and defensive misdreavus is set up bait after the orb activates.

+0 zangoose Shadow Claw vs 252/252+ eviolite frillish: 493 Atk vs 327 Def & 314 HP (70 Base Power): 152 - 180 (48.41% - 57.32%) 2hko after rocks.

+0 zangoose close combat vs 252/252+ regirock: 493 Atk vs 541 Def & 364 HP (120 Base Power): 158 - 186 (43.41% - 51.10%) 50% chance to 2hko after rocks+lefties, and nobody runs max/max+ regi from what ive seen.

+0 zangoose facade vs 252/252+ amoonguss: 493 Atk vs 262 Def & 432 HP (140 Base Power): 283 - 334 (65.51% - 77.31%) 2hko after rocks.

Due to the sheer power of its attacks, Zangoose doesnt have "counters" but it probably does have a few checks. a few things i can think of are:

1) Gurdurr

2) subdisable haunter

3) faster pokemon that can KO

4) protect spamming and perfect prediction

thoughts on zangoose? will it be good in this metagame? am i overhyping it way to much?

post a response on your thoughts about our new killer mongoose and youe experiences with it on PS!

[No Luck Involved]

Zangoose is strong but to predict its impact on the metagame you'd have to look at Quick Feet Ursaring before. It was ridiculously strong after an SD, had better speed and more bulk. Yet it wasn't used at all. The problem is the residual damage from Toxic is too much and its movepool makes it relatively easy to stall out. Anything that gets a hit on it while it SDs will leave it more than half dead already and thats the big problem.

I think Quick Attack could be a good niche for SD Zangoose. Ursaring was stopped cold by priority and Sucker Punchers (which are everywhere, it's common to see 2 or even 3 on a team) and having Quick Attack will be a huge advantage make it a much better cleaner. NU has one of the best Pursuit trappers in the whole game in Skuntank so with some good play hopefully Ghosts will be removed by the time Zangoose hits the scene. Its bulk is still a massive issue though, it won't be setting up very easily especially with self inflicted Toxic.

[Cherub Agent]

Nice one Molk, Zangoose is incredible

+0 zangoose facade vs 252/0 eviolite gurdurr: 493 Atk vs 309 Def & 374 HP (140 Base Power): 240 - 283 (64.17% - 75.67%) if you close combat on the switch the first time it comes in before your orb activates, that damage+ 2 rounds of rocks can KO it.

Technically this can't really count, as Gurdurr will just Mach Punch Zangoose, which OHKOs, especially after CC Defense drops. Goes to show just how solid my favourite NU Pokemon is...

Zangoose is a monster... once it gets the SD boost. Zangoose is extraordinarily frail (73/60/60) meaning that it has very, very few opportunities to set up. Let's compare it to Gorebyss: both are very powerful Pokemon that can run though the metagame like a hot knife through butter if they get a boost. However, Gorebyss actually has the physical bulk to set up a SS. Then again, it's slower and weaker than Zangoose (Sorry just rambling here).

My point is that Zangoose is very hard to set up, and most of the time will have to accept that it won't have the opportunity to set up a Swords Dance. This isn't really as bad as it sounds (it would have been before Toxic Boost release), as 543 Attack, coupled with a 140 Base Power STAB move, wrecks even without a boost. That's why I'm actually more interested in an all-out attacker set, with Facade, Close Combat, Shadow Calw and Quick Attack. SD is THE ultimate wallbreaker of NU, but it would suck to get the boost only to be revenge killed on the next turn. Can't wait to try this beast out.

[Axa]

Zangoose's speed is the problem though. Base 90 just isn't fast enough, as Zangoose fails to outspeed threats like Sawsbuck and Miltank, as well as likely rising threats like Fearow and Swoobat. And as said, pokemon with Protect can really pile up the damage on Zangoose.

Cincinno is arguably better, due to its much better speed and comparable power before Zan gets a SD up.. That doesn't mean you can't use both, though.

[Molk]

Originally Posted by Fat Cherub Agent

Technically this can't really count, as Gurdurr will just Mach Punch Zangoose, which OHKOs, especially after CC Defense drops. Goes to show just how solid my favourite NU Pokemon is...

Whoops! i think i kinda worded that wrong... what i meant was this

1) you send in zangoose after a mon has been Koed, and they switch in gurdurr on your unboosted close combat, about 30%

2) you switch to whatever check to gurdurr you have and either a) defeat it or b) gurdurr switches


3) the next time gurdurr comes in on zangoose it dies to facade


@NLI that is a valid point, ursaring was pretty strong (although zangoose is nearly as strong as GUTS ursaring >.>), had the equivalent of base 106 speed, and the same coverage. Zangoose can be worn down quite easily just like quick feet ursaring, and neither of them find much time to set up a SD except on a forced switch. Thats the thing, unboosted zangoose hits WAY harder than quick feet ursaring, while still being able to outspeed a fair amount of the metagame. heres an example!

unboosted quick feet ursaring facade vs max/max+ alomomola: 359 Atk vs 284 Def & 534 HP (140 Base Power): 190 - 225 (35.58% - 42.13%)

unboosted zangoose facade vs max/max+ alomomola: 493 Atk vs 284 Def & 534 HP (140 Base Power): 262 - 309 (49.06% - 57.87%)


thats quite a bit more, in fact, zangoose can 2hko alomomola after rocks while ursaring cant! that extra power really comes in handy there.

I also thought of another good check to zangoose, and that is the newly released imposter ditto, it can outspeed and KO zangoose with a scarf, and possbly countersweep if you got a boost (no toxic boost poison boost, though).

@cherub agent: Now that i think about it, i also like that idea of an all out attacking zangoose, it still has the power of unboosted swords dance zangoose, and it doesnt have to choose between being able to pick off things like cincinno and absol and hitting ghosts, i wonder which will be more popular, Swords Dance or that set.


@axa i would say 90 speed is pretty good in NU, if band sawk can pull it off, than so can zangoose with 5 more points in its speed, even if there are a lot of threats that outspeed it, that is what quick attack is for and why an all out attacker set is a viable option.

Also, i rarely see any miltank running speed evs .-., and even when they do miltank cannot switch in on a close combat.

about cincinno, i did some calcs before making this post and cincinno does NOT hit as hard as zangoose before a SD, here is a calc to prove it.

Jolly Choice Band Cincinno 5 hit tail slap vs max/max+eviolite tangela 433 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (125 Base Power): 109 - 129 (32.63% - 38.62%)


jolly toxic boost zangoose facade vs max/max+ eviolite tangel 493 Atk vs 541 Def & 334 HP (140 Base Power): 138 - 163 (41.32% - 48.80%)

just as before with ursaring vs zangoose, zangoose has a 70% chance to 2hko tangela after rocks, cincinno doesnt have any chance of 2hkoing the ball of vines, also that was band cincinno, most people use life orb or even kings rock for epic flinch hax so it wont even be hitting tangela THAT hard most of the time.

EDIT: another point about why to use zangoose over cincinno is because zangoose has a powerful fighting type move in close combat to get past the mighty klang, who seems like a rising threat with its ability to set up on things such as amoonguss, alomomola, tangela, cincinno, and possibly swoobat (havent calced boosted hp fighting on that).

[Machineae]

Originally Posted by Fat Endorfins

Another mon which got a great buff in BW2 and Dream World is Liepard, Prankster Encore on something that can setup is a godsend. Liepard can shut down almost anything and can setup on half the metagame if played correctly. Unlike Cottonee and Volbeat, Liepard can actually setup for a sweep, and with the new Dark Pulse move tutor, it no longer has to use Snarl as a STAB move. Definitely something to watch out for once its Dream World ability gets released.

Go to page 3 I had a nice lil post about Liepard. Prankster is already released and boy is it useful. Its so easy to come in on a move and just encore something that won't hurt you like SR, Wish, etc. Its also very funny when they try to send a poke in with fake out only to have it do roughly 20% and you just encore that as well.

From my previous post-

Liepard is surprisingly useful. A simple 252/252 spread w/Timid nature and NP/Encore/Dark Pulse/HP Fighting finds so many opportunities to set up and take something out then proceed to do more damage and eventually die or just switch out to come in again. 106 Spd is pretty good for NU and you really should be running Timid to take advantage of it.

[Django]

OK just moved a load of posts to their appropriate thread for discussion on unreleased Pokemon. Lets try and keep it on topic guys.

[RainbowCrash]

What about ditto okay it will leave soon but its there now


Also feel Drifblim is bringing the Swag

Drifblim @ Flame orb
Ability Flare Boost
Evs Either 252 Spec Att/252 Spd/4Hp
or 252 Spec Att /252 Hp /4 Spd

Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
Pain Split / Icy Wind
Trick / Hp Ground

Really nice hard hitting spec attack.I really like trick on this set get your Boost and then try and cripple something or start shuffling around some evolite.Icy wind would be good on the bulkyer set because of its ability to drop the speed of the opponent.Pain split givesyou a good form of recovery to counteract the burn orb on the less bulky set

sorry did not know it was out :) dont do dream world so much

[Full2Half]

flare boost has been around for a while, and although fun to use, it hasnt had much impact on the metagame.

[Machineae]

Yeah Flare Boost has been out forever haha. Its actually useful as hell on weatherblim. Although I think unburden's speed boost outweighs flare boosts +1 SpA.