Black and White Kyurem - Page 5

-Sun · Jun 27th, 2012, 11:06:12 AM

I never comment usually but I just wanna say that I'm pretty happy the title of strongest outrage no longer belongs to an NFE... I mean come on! With crap like rayquaza and zekrom running around in ubers it was still zweilous way down in NU that got the title?
BTW if someone has already said this I will commit cyber-suicide....

Quote:

I never said that heatran could check the sub kyreum W set. It can, however continually switch into choiced draco meteors/ice beams. As of the life orb set, heatran requires wish support if kyreum is running earth power, which is where Blissey/chansey come in.

Modest specs kyurem-w does 41.2%-48.4% with dmeteor... meaning heatran cannot repeatedly switch in...

Rater · Jun 27th, 2012, 4:00:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat -Sun

I never comment usually but I just wanna say that I'm pretty happy the title of strongest outrage no longer belongs to an NFE... I mean come on! With crap like rayquaza and zekrom running around in ubers it was still zweilous way down in NU that got the title?
BTW if someone has already said this I will commit cyber-suicide....

Modest specs kyurem-w does 41.2%-48.4% with dmeteor... meaning heatran cannot repeatedly switch in...

It can switch in twice to a modest specs draco meteor from a 170sp.att stat. Thats pretty good considering. Pair heatran up with chansey/blissey with wish support and heatran can switch in all day to draco meteor and fusion flare. Chansey is, however the best check to the specs set. I would say heatran best counters the mixed set.

ElectivireRocks · Jun 27th, 2012, 5:50:33 PM

Power Herb Freeze Shock Kyurem-B is actually decent.
I was expecting an Outrage or Fusion Bolt, so I switched my Ferrothorn in, only to be swiftly KO'd by Freeze Shock (SR and 1 layer of Spikes were on the field though).

Jerp · Jun 27th, 2012, 8:18:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

Power Herb Freeze Shock Kyurem-B is actually decent.

Wait.... a one time STAB Ice move is decent? That's actually pretty terrible, considering that Freeze Shock then becomes a wasted move slot afterwards.

Anyways, I'm not sure if anybody else has said this, but for all the base 95 speed dragons, Rayquaza is the best. It can actually run a mixed set, and KO basically any wall in it's way. Honestly, these two dragons were a bit of a disappointment...

~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ · Jun 27th, 2012, 10:11:45 PM

...not in the presence of Multiscale Lugia. That completely walls Rayquaza, whereas Kyurem-W at the very least destroys it effortlessly.

TrollFreak · Jun 27th, 2012, 10:17:32 PM

You know it only works if you keep hazards off the field right. +1 Outrage 2HKOs Lugia w/ Rocks, so it doesn't really wall Rayquaza

~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ · Jun 27th, 2012, 10:28:05 PM

Then keep hazards off the field. Why not do so when Multiscale Lugia walls almost the entire tier with Stealth Rock off the field?

Mr.lol · Jun 27th, 2012, 11:02:48 PM

Err perhaps focus could be reverted back to the Kyurem stuff?

You DO make a funny point though, in my experience of seeing others use Kyurem, it appears that it either A, gets hit with Stealth Rock, reveals its choiced item, then gets forced to switch, and does that the whole match and ends up doing nothing, or B, dents something then gets promptly revenge killed. I think there was honestly too much hype about the Kyurem forms now..., anyone else find them a bit disappointing after testing them out?

Quote:

Then keep hazards off the field. Why not do so when Multiscale Lugia walls almost the entire tier with Stealth Rock off the field?

Just saying, but its near impossible to keep Rocks off the field. The spinblockers (gira-a / o, Arceus Ghost) will prevent spinning for almost all the match and most of the common SR users (dialga, ttar, groudon) are more then capable of muscling through Xatu and Espeon. Well unless Groudon's running support don set and Xatu has reflect. Also the idea of using a magic bounce poke with Kyurem is actually quite interesting, but what bothers me is the terrible synergy issues created with it. Psychic Flying and Dragon Ice, offer few valuable useful resistance when used in conjunction (barring Ground, and Kyurem's defenses aren't exactly high enough to stomach hits without tons of investment)... A spinner might work and it offers better synergy but considering how (un)reliable spinning is...

nygerman · Jun 28th, 2012, 2:36:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Pokémon Trainer R

Then keep hazards off the field. Why not do so when Multiscale Lugia walls almost the entire tier with Stealth Rock off the field?

There are no good rapid spinners.

Rayquaza still has the strongest Outrage since Zekrom Kyurem can't boost.

Freeze Shock is Useless

It's essential 70 Base Power with 95 accuracy since you have to waste two turns. No use considering ice beam already hits Lugi and Ferrothorn good. Freeze Shock is useless against walls.

Rayquaza_ · Jun 28th, 2012, 3:40:56 AM

Rayquaza does not have the strongest Outrage, when refering to "strongest", the word "unboostesd" is always implied.
Freeze Shock isn't useless. Its applications have been accurately described in this topic. Very situational, but not useless. It's only a little less powerful than 2 Ice Punches.
Kyurem-B's Ice Beam won't even scratch Ferrothorn.

Even with hazards out, Kyurem can switch on most 90 base speed ubers in the tier and force you into choosing which pokemon you're going to lose. If it this happens, then it has done its purpose. Kyurem wasn't meant to sweep teams by itself, but if it manages to come in and the user isn't an idiot, something in your team is going down period.

Excadrill works well as rapid spinner in ubers. It actually beats Giratina-O 1-on-1 with Shadow Claw. It also has good synergy with Lugia (and Kyurem to an extent, though they share a fighting weakness).

barry4ever · Jun 28th, 2012, 4:25:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Excadrill works well as rapid spinner in ubers. It actually beats Giratina-O 1-on-1 with Shadow Claw. It also has good synergy with Lugia (and Kyurem to an extent, though they share a fighting weakness).

Off topic, but now that Mold Breaker is released, Excadrill can just nail Giratina-O with Earthquake since it does more damage considering STAB.

Earthquake = 100*1.5 = 150
Shadow Claw = 2* 70 = 140 :p

JCM · Jun 29th, 2012, 11:04:52 AM

Anyone considered a Sub+Hone Claws set? With Roost, I can use it as a fairly annoying set-up sweeper, and usually knock off as many foes from the opponents team as turns outrage keeps going.

Mono-Attacker:
Kyurem-Z @ Leftovers/Lum Berry
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP/252 Atk/16 Def/188 Spe
Nature: Jolly/Adamant

-Substitute
-Hone Claws
-Roost/Fusion Bolt
-Outrage

I find this set surprisingly effective. Due to Kyurem-Z's tendency to force switches, it's surprisingly easy to set up a Sub in your opponents face. In my experience, a lot of foes tend to try to counter Kyurem-Z with status, so if you're lucky you can get another switch in there. From there, set up Hone Claws until you feel no longer safe (If the foe is faster than you and about to destroy your Sub, or they're slower and they have destroyed it) and maul them with Outrage. Roost works best in tandem with Lum Berry, but is still a great choice with Leftovers. However, Fusion Bolt is an option if you don't want to get confused, but should usually be used with Leftovers. 52 HP EVs allow Kyurem-Z to set up 101 HP Substitutes, while 252 Attack EVs maximize offensive potency. 188 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature allow you to outpace neutral-nature base 100s such as Adamant Choice Band Victini, but a bulkier spread of 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Def with an Adamant nature is an option for more power and bulk. The rest of the EVs are thrown into defense to maximize durability.

nygerman · Jun 29th, 2012, 10:36:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Rayquaza does not have the strongest Outrage, when refering to "strongest", the word "unboostesd" is always implied.
Freeze Shock isn't useless. Its applications have been accurately described in this topic. Very situational, but not useless. It's only a little less powerful than 2 Ice Punches.
Kyurem-B's Ice Beam won't even scratch Ferrothorn.

Even with hazards out, Kyurem can switch on most 90 base speed ubers in the tier and force you into choosing which pokemon you're going to lose. If it this happens, then it has done its purpose. Kyurem wasn't meant to sweep teams by itself, but if it manages to come in and the user isn't an idiot, something in your team is going down period.

Excadrill works well as rapid spinner in ubers. It actually beats Giratina-O 1-on-1 with Shadow Claw. It also has good synergy with Lugia (and Kyurem to an extent, though they share a fighting weakness).

Black Kyurem Freeze Shock won't even scatch Ferrothorn

Excadrill needs sand to win and Tyranitar is uncommon. The last thing Kyurem forms want is more residual damage. Excadrill will get destroyed with any of the Giratinas. Shadow Claw has like 70 BP. A neutral earthquake does more damage.

Vincent · Jun 29th, 2012, 10:37:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat barry4ever

Off topic, but now that Mold Breaker is released, Excadrill can just nail Giratina-O with Earthquake since it does more damage considering STAB.

Earthquake = 100*1.5 = 150
Shadow Claw = 2* 70 = 140 :p

But in such case Excadrill can't outspeed Max Speed+ Giratina-O.

shrang · Jun 29th, 2012, 10:41:06 PM

Quote:

Black Kyurem Freeze Shock won't even scatch Ferrothorn

CB Freeze Shock OHKOs Ferrothorn.

shinywott · Jun 29th, 2012, 11:34:46 PM

You may call me crazy but I have been thinking on using Iron head on the choice band set. It could run Outrage Fusion bolt Stone edge and iron head (Roost can help and all other moves outside of special are freeze shock and shadow claw). However going mixed isnt a bad idea too and Sub + Freeze shock could help him (Substituing SE and IH) since a one use item isnt what i would call attractive

barry4ever · Jun 30th, 2012, 12:58:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Vincent

But in such case Excadrill can't outspeed Max Speed+ Giratina-O.

just wondering,exactly how many speed gira-o's have you seen lolb giratina cant afford to run anywhere near max speed. sorry for the terse post but im on my phone atm :/

Dragon Rider · Jun 30th, 2012, 1:36:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shinywott

You may call me crazy but I have been thinking on using Iron head on the choice band set. It could run Outrage Fusion bolt Stone edge and iron head (Roost can help and all other moves outside of special are freeze shock and shadow claw). However going mixed isnt a bad idea too and Sub + Freeze shock could help him (Substituing SE and IH) since a one use item isnt what i would call attractive

You're not too crazy.Kyurem-B entire physical movepool with 70+ Power:

Outrage
Dragon Claw
Fusion Bolt
Freeze Shock
Return
Facade
Shadow Claw
Stone Edge
Rock Slide
Iron Head
Zen Headbutt

Most of those won't hit a valid target at all.Zen Headbutt,Return,and Facade are completely useless.Rock Slide and Stone Edge only seem to be good against Ho-Oh,Lugia,Skymin, and Reshiram but you already have Fusion Bolt for those. Shadow Claw hits nothing Fusion Bolt/Outrage wouldn't. Iron Head doesn't really add any coverage but you could use it on Scarf for some LULZY flinches.Keep in mind though there are a ton of Fire/Water pokes to resist Iron Head.

I think I would run this for a Choice set:

Kyurem-B @ Choice Band/Choice Scarf
Jolly/Adamant Terravolt
252 Atk/6 Sp.Def/252 Spe
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Fusion Bolt
- Freeze Shock

I heard CB Freeze Shock can OHKO a Ferrothorn but I haven't checked myself.Ice Beam would probably be better but again I haven't checked an uninvested hit against most targets.Gliscor's screwed though which is always a good thing.

Why doesn't this thing get Ice Punch,Dual Chop, or Superpower?All fit his theme and would help so much.

Rayquaza_ · Jun 30th, 2012, 6:07:43 AM

252/88 Ferrothorn takes 96.87% damage minimum from CB Freeze Shock.
Of course if it has Protect and your opponent predicts FS it can switch in on the charge turn and Protect the next.
If Kyurem-B has already charged though nothing other than Cloyster and Heatran switches in safely, and even those won't like the 30% paralysis chance.
Most player won't expect Freeze Shock so it's unlikely that they send something faster on the charge turn (such as Palkia or Grachomp). Arceus-Steel is still a problem though.

Pairing Kyurem-B with Magnezone is a must in my opinion, since it gets rid of the annoying steel-types that do wall it. Those being Arceus-Steel (without Earthquake/Earth Power) and physically defensive Forretress.

Specially defensive Forretress has a chance to be 2HKO'd by CB Outrage after SR and has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by CB Fusion Bolt even without hazards.

Standard specs/scarf Magnezone is 2HKO'd by CB Outrage all the the time and scarf Flash Cannon has a chance not to OHKO Kyurem-B after it has taken SR damage (who uses ScarfZone in ubers anyways).

~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ · Jun 30th, 2012, 7:03:26 AM

I think something rather interesting was just discovered.

Shock_wave · Jun 30th, 2012, 7:58:19 AM

Oh dear, they will go straight to Uber then if proven true.

Quanyails · Jun 30th, 2012, 8:11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Pokémon Trainer R

I think something rather interesting was just discovered.

Was that person considering Thick Fat being bypassed?

~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ · Jun 30th, 2012, 8:20:37 AM

Whether or not Turboblaze bypasses Thick Fat is irrelevant, as even if it didn't, the two moves he compared would both have had their power halved anyway. And the point was that even though Kyurem receives Same Type Attack Bonus for Ice Beam, but not Fusion Flare, the two moves dealt the same amount of damage.

***RBG**** · Jun 30th, 2012, 8:21:54 AM

It would have bypassed Thick Fat for both moves.

**Furai** · Jun 30th, 2012, 8:29:43 AM

That's not exactly new to me, if to be honest. Turboblaze and Teravolt are just like Mold Breaker: they bypass abilities that hinder there attacks. This is why Shedinja does not counter Zekrom, and this is why Snorlax takes normal damage from Ice Beam and Fusion Flare. Here is the quote from Smogon's abilitydex about Turboblaze: "If this Pokemon attacks and the target's ability would prevent the effects of the attack from taking place, or hinder the effects of the move, the ability is temporarily nullified while the attack is in progress."

Jun 27th, 2012, 10:17:32 PM	#106
TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻ Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 1,249 New York born, New York proud	You know it only works if you keep hazards off the field right. +1 Outrage 2HKOs Lugia w/ Rocks, so it doesn't really wall Rayquaza __________________ Work Ever wanted to contribute to Smogon? Visit the Contributions and Corrections forum! ~SNOVERS~

Jun 28th, 2012, 3:40:56 AM	#110
Rayquaza_ Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 695	Rayquaza does not have the strongest Outrage, when refering to "strongest", the word "unboostesd" is always implied. Freeze Shock isn't useless. Its applications have been accurately described in this topic. Very situational, but not useless. It's only a little less powerful than 2 Ice Punches. Kyurem-B's Ice Beam won't even scratch Ferrothorn. Even with hazards out, Kyurem can switch on most 90 base speed ubers in the tier and force you into choosing which pokemon you're going to lose. If it this happens, then it has done its purpose. Kyurem wasn't meant to sweep teams by itself, but if it manages to come in and the user isn't an idiot, something in your team is going down period. Excadrill works well as rapid spinner in ubers. It actually beats Giratina-O 1-on-1 with Shadow Claw. It also has good synergy with Lugia (and Kyurem to an extent, though they share a fighting weakness). Last edited by Rayquaza_; Jun 28th, 2012 at 3:59:43 AM.

Jun 29th, 2012, 11:04:52 AM	#112
JCM Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 27 LinooneVille	Anyone considered a Sub+Hone Claws set? With Roost, I can use it as a fairly annoying set-up sweeper, and usually knock off as many foes from the opponents team as turns outrage keeps going. Mono-Attacker: Kyurem-Z @ Leftovers/Lum Berry Trait: Teravolt EVs: 52 HP/252 Atk/16 Def/188 Spe Nature: Jolly/Adamant -Substitute -Hone Claws -Roost/Fusion Bolt -Outrage I find this set surprisingly effective. Due to Kyurem-Z's tendency to force switches, it's surprisingly easy to set up a Sub in your opponents face. In my experience, a lot of foes tend to try to counter Kyurem-Z with status, so if you're lucky you can get another switch in there. From there, set up Hone Claws until you feel no longer safe (If the foe is faster than you and about to destroy your Sub, or they're slower and they have destroyed it) and maul them with Outrage. Roost works best in tandem with Lum Berry, but is still a great choice with Leftovers. However, Fusion Bolt is an option if you don't want to get confused, but should usually be used with Leftovers. 52 HP EVs allow Kyurem-Z to set up 101 HP Substitutes, while 252 Attack EVs maximize offensive potency. 188 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature allow you to outpace neutral-nature base 100s such as Adamant Choice Band Victini, but a bulkier spread of 248 HP/252 Atk/8 Def with an Adamant nature is an option for more power and bulk. The rest of the EVs are thrown into defense to maximize durability. __________________ Pet a Linoone.

Jun 30th, 2012, 7:58:19 AM	#121
Shock_wave Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 59	Oh dear, they will go straight to Uber then if proven true. __________________ Pokemon Black and White: Philippines (April 2011)

Jun 30th, 2012, 8:21:54 AM	#124
*RBG It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything. Super Moderator** Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,230 Home: Goshen Scout Reservation	It would have bypassed Thick Fat for both moves. __________________ Alder: N, even if we don't understand each other, that's not a reason to reject each other. There are two sides to an argument. Is there one point of view that has all the answers? Give it some thought.

Jun 27th, 2012, 5:50:33 PM	#103
ElectivireRocks Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 271	Power Herb Freeze Shock Kyurem-B is actually decent. I was expecting an Outrage or Fusion Bolt, so I switched my Ferrothorn in, only to be swiftly KO'd by Freeze Shock (SR and 1 layer of Spikes were on the field though).

Jun 27th, 2012, 10:11:45 PM	#105
~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 137 Darkness	...not in the presence of Multiscale Lugia. That completely walls Rayquaza, whereas Kyurem-W at the very least destroys it effortlessly.

Jun 27th, 2012, 10:28:05 PM	#107
~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 137 Darkness	Then keep hazards off the field. Why not do so when Multiscale Lugia walls almost the entire tier with Stealth Rock off the field?

Jun 29th, 2012, 11:34:46 PM	#116
shinywott Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 53	You may call me crazy but I have been thinking on using Iron head on the choice band set. It could run Outrage Fusion bolt Stone edge and iron head (Roost can help and all other moves outside of special are freeze shock and shadow claw). However going mixed isnt a bad idea too and Sub + Freeze shock could help him (Substituing SE and IH) since a one use item isnt what i would call attractive

Jun 30th, 2012, 6:07:43 AM	#119
Rayquaza_ Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 695	252/88 Ferrothorn takes 96.87% damage minimum from CB Freeze Shock. Of course if it has Protect and your opponent predicts FS it can switch in on the charge turn and Protect the next. If Kyurem-B has already charged though nothing other than Cloyster and Heatran switches in safely, and even those won't like the 30% paralysis chance. Most player won't expect Freeze Shock so it's unlikely that they send something faster on the charge turn (such as Palkia or Grachomp). Arceus-Steel is still a problem though. Pairing Kyurem-B with Magnezone is a must in my opinion, since it gets rid of the annoying steel-types that do wall it. Those being Arceus-Steel (without Earthquake/Earth Power) and physically defensive Forretress. Specially defensive Forretress has a chance to be 2HKO'd by CB Outrage after SR and has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by CB Fusion Bolt even without hazards. Standard specs/scarf Magnezone is 2HKO'd by CB Outrage all the the time and scarf Flash Cannon has a chance not to OHKO Kyurem-B after it has taken SR damage (who uses ScarfZone in ubers anyways).

Jun 30th, 2012, 7:03:26 AM	#120
~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 137 Darkness	I think something rather interesting was just discovered.

Jun 30th, 2012, 8:20:37 AM	#123
~~Pokémon Trainer R~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 137 Darkness	Whether or not Turboblaze bypasses Thick Fat is irrelevant, as even if it didn't, the two moves he compared would both have had their power halved anyway. And the point was that even though Kyurem receives Same Type Attack Bonus for Ice Beam, but not Fusion Flare, the two moves dealt the same amount of damage.

Jun 30th, 2012, 8:29:43 AM	#125
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,095	That's not exactly new to me, if to be honest. Turboblaze and Teravolt are just like Mold Breaker: they bypass abilities that hinder there attacks. This is why Shedinja does not counter Zekrom, and this is why Snorlax takes normal damage from Ice Beam and Fusion Flare. Here is the quote from Smogon's abilitydex about Turboblaze: "If this Pokemon attacks and the target's ability would prevent the effects of the attack from taking place, or hinder the effects of the move, the ability is temporarily nullified while the attack is in progress." __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)