np: UU Stage 7 - Brand New Day

[JayHankEdLyon]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

I've found that intimidate bulkytop counters all versions of scrafty not running something unorthodox like zen headbutt... He can take any attack scarfty tries and can destroys it with close combat. Technitop makes a great check as it can revenge a weakened scrafty w/a high powered mach punch. Honestly, people are over hyping scrafty too much. It has 2+ counters and a variety of checks. If you ask me he'll fit right in to uu.

Standard BU Scrafty with even a single Bulk Up takes 43-53% from Bulkytop's Close Combat. It can then Drain Punch to win out, as Close Combat slowly lowers Hitmontop's defenses.

In other news I reeeeeeeeeally wish there were reliable Togekiss counters not named Zapdos and Raikou. Seriously. My team's once again great against everything but Togekiss.

[Pocket]

You can possibly try Rotom or Rotom-H to deal with Togekiss. Rotom-H is SR weak, but it does have overall better bulk and offense, not to mention some nifty Grass and Fire-resistance and STAB Overheat. Rotom is frailer and less powerful, but it resists / is immune to Togekiss's Air Slash and Aura Sphere. Its extra Speed and Ghost-typing may come in handy, especially when dealing with Fighting-types and Rapid Spinners. Neutrality to SR may help Rotom stick around longer than Rotom-H.

Crobat also has Inner Focus, so it does not have to deal with Togekiss's crazy flinch rates - ideally you don't want Crobat paralyzed, but it's certainly an option if you face a Togekiss. Umbreon and Hypno also have Inner Focus released.

[JayHankEdLyon]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Crobat also has Inner Focus, so it does not have to deal with Togekiss's crazy flinch rates - ideally you don't want Crobat paralyzed, but it's certainly an option if you face a Togekiss. Umbreon and Hypno also have Inner Focus released.

I use Crobat and always have; he certainly isn't a Togekiss counter. It's faster, so it shouldn't be flinched anyway (and can taunt Twave). But it's simply not strong enough to take down Togekiss and Togekiss eventually overcomes it. Every time.

[hilarious]

Originally Posted by Fat JayHankEdLyon

I use Crobat and always have; he certainly isn't a Togekiss counter. First off, it's faster, so it shouldn't be flinched anyway (and can taunt Twave).

The problem is that it's not strong enough to take down Togekiss and Togekiss eventually overcomes it. Every time.

I dunno about that really, it looks like in theory as long as Crobat can avoid getting paralyzed on the switch then he can usually beat Togekiss. Switch in with your semi defensive Crobat (you need a few Special Defense EVs if you are playing against Modest Togekiss) and eat an Air Slash for around 40%. At this point if your Crobat was at full health before you should be sitting at a bit over 60% with Leftovers or a bit over 35% after Stealth Rock.

If you have 60% then you should go for the Taunt now because you will survive the turn no matter what, bar a critical hit which is about as likely as a miss from Air Slash. If they Air Slash again on the Taunt you are sitting at 30% after Leftovers which lets you Roost again on the next turn. You can continually Taunt and Roost until you are at high enough health to Toxic Togekiss and then proceed to stall Togekiss out. Or if you lack Toxic you can inflict lots of damage with Super Fang until Brave Bird can KO. Or if you lack both of those then you can continually use a cycle of Taunt Roost and Brave Bird that can only be messed up by an Air Slash crit, which is, I suppose, likely at that point.

If you have just a bit over 35% then you have to guess when the Thunder Wave is coming and Taunt it or heal with Roost.

The problem obviously becomes when Togekiss uses Nasty Plot (or Work Up!) on on the switch. I am a defensive player usually and I have faced problems like this before (CM Clefable a generation ago!), NP Togekiss is going to walk (fly?) over a slow team every day not because it is fast or strong or even lucky, but because the nature of playing defensively. You're going to get set up on and then pounded on because defensive teams have little way to pressure Togekiss. I think you know this. You must use a specialized counter to beat Togekiss or have a safety Pokemon in a stall team, such as CB Weavile which also eliminates Xatu, or your Togekiss will always find a chink in your armor.

Instead of hoping for some miracle Pokemon to appear and to synergize with your team that happens to also beats Togekiss, you should just accept the fact you are rarely going to beat boosting Togekiss. If Pokemon that routinely achieve win conditions against you become more popular (I think user Flareblitz was using Togekiss wayyyy too much) then you need to adapt and if your team cannot then you need to just seriously revamp your team.

[Iridium]

I haven't used scrafty myself, but enemy scrafty have been pretty underwhelming. It's just too slow and weak to be an offensive threat. +1 scrafty gets outsped by 115s, and it doesn't KO anything without a SE hit if it runs drain punch, and bulk up does no damage. idk, maybe people just don't know how to use it right yet.

Originally Posted by Fat JayHankEdLyon

In other news I reeeeeeeeeally wish there were reliable Togekiss counters not named Zapdos and Raikou. Seriously. My team's once again great against everything but Togekiss.

What's wrong with zapdos? I'm not much of a stall player, but it looks like it can stall pretty well to me.

[JayHankEdLyon]

Originally Posted by Fat Iridium

I haven't used scrafty myself, but enemy scrafty have been pretty underwhelming. It's just too slow and weak to be an offensive threat. +1 scrafty gets outsped by 115s, and it doesn't KO anything without a SE hit if it runs drain punch, and bulk up does no damage. idk, maybe people just don't know how to use it right yet.

If Scrafty gets in on certain common pokemon like Bronzong and Gligar (and has Shed Skin to ignore status), it can easily nab two or three DDs. Drain Punch and Shed Skin are amazing for its survival.

Meanwhile, Bulk Up is, well, bulky. Really bulky. Given its stats and the ability to Rest basically unimpeded, it can threaten certain teams with ease.

Is he perfect? Hardly. Is he as good as hyped? Nope. But still a pretty great addition to UU.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Originally Posted by Fat JayHankEdLyon

Meanwhile, Bulk Up is, well, bulky. Really bulky. Given its stats and the ability to Rest basically unimpeded, it can threaten certain teams with ease.

Is he perfect? Hardly. Is he as good as hyped? Nope. But still a pretty great addition to UU.

Not to mention Arcanine, Heracross, Escavalier (especially this guy) Meinshao all tend to break through him regardless of his boosts.

Whenever I played OU he was never a threat once to any of my teams except for one guy I faced who led with him using a BU/Amensia Set that utilized Dragon Tail and Rest. Even then Skarmory completely walled him even when he got to +3.

He's not a bad Pokemon, but if you HAVE to set up in order to accomplish anything useful, then I personally don't find it a threat.

[W_M]

At moment, I have had any problem with Scrafty. I have been using a bulky Gallade (with Justified ability) like counter. It runs perfectly:

Gallade (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 92 Def / 124 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Ice Punch
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Night Slash



DD Scrafty Jolly + LO vs Gallade

(Ice Punch +1)
Detailed Result:
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Scrafty Ice Punch vs 252 HP/92 Def Gallade: 45,59% - 53,82%

(HJK +1)
Detailed Result:
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Scrafty Hi Jump Kick vs 252 HP/92 Def Gallade: 59,12% - 69,41%

(Crunch +1)
Detailed Result:
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Scrafty Crunch vs 252 HP/92 Def Gallade: 72,65% - 85,88%

In the two first cases I do 2HKO with Drain Punch and It never kill me because I recover me with the first DP + Leftovers. In the third case, I directly do OHKO because It actives my ability with Crunch.



Bulk Up Scrafty vs Gallade

It is always slower that Gallade, so Gallade always uses Bulk Up before than Scrafty. Drain Punch do a ridiculous damage, and Crunch activates its ability give it a extra +1 attack.



*Respect to Mienshao. I counter it with Slowbro sooner or later.

[alexwolf]

@W M

I will kill you if this set causes Gallade to jump in UU... Or i will simply run DD Dark Gem Scrafty in a Spikes stacking team to destroy all hope from Gallade users!

[Diatom]

Um, guys, how did we let escavalier drop to RU? It's easily one of the top 20 pokes in the metagame, maybe even top 10, and it may not even be an exaggeration to call it top 5. It OHKOs about 80% of the tier, and I think everything else is 2HKOd. Sure, it has low speed, but it's purpose is to come in on something like, well, pretty much anything not very effective (he resists a LOT of things, same great typing as scizor) and severely hurt something with the right move. He even has pursuit to kill fleeing pokes, such as mismagius. Not to mention that he has over 600 attack with a choice band. With megahorn, something is going to take a HARD hit, and you have iron head for other stuff. Even without Drill Run, this thing flat out OHKOs so much stuff that it always manages to find its way on every UU team I make.

EDIT: Also, unlike darmanitan, it doesn't kill itself from using its strongest move, so don't just say "use darmanitan"

[Iridium]

unlike darmanitan, it has nothing that does any damage to, say, cobalion

[Twins]

Mienshao is an amazing pokemon, can't argue with that. It has immediate offensive presence and is useful throughout the entire match, whether as an anti-lead early game, a momentum gainer mid game, or a cleaning up sweeper late game. It fits in just about any team with its speed and power, and can last the entire match despite its nonexistent bulk thanks to Regenerator.

I've been using this set for months on Beta:
Chow Mein (Mienshao) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- U-turn
- Hi Jump Kick
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
Scarf Mienshao is probably the best way to go in UU. Base 105 speed outspeeds the entire UU metagame, including other dangerous scarfers like Flygon, Victini, and Darmanitan, and easily scares out almost every pokemon with the threat of a 130 BP STAB Hi Jump Kick off of base 125 attack. Use U-Turn for extremely easy switch-ins and massive amounts of momentum. With good prediction, you can even take out switch-ins like Chandelure or Heracross with the appropriate coverage move. Like I said before, it functions as a lead, a momentum gainer, and a team cleaner, and does a damn good job at all of them. The only real problem with this set is the fact that Hi Jump Kick isn't the best move to be locked into. But with good prediction, Mienshao can take on any pokemon in the tier and come out unscathed, ready to fight another day.

TL;DR: Run Scarf Mienshao on ALL the UU teams.

EDIT: Mienshao can also run a LO set with Fake Out for a ton of free damage and even more power, but I've found this isn't the best set to use in UU with all the scarfers around that completely check (okay, not counter, but still) Mienshao and force it out. Still, with proper team support, this set is even scarier and versatile.
---
Despite the virtues of Mienshao, I've found Scrafty to be a much greater threat than Mienshao. It doesn't have nearly as much immediate offensive presence as Mienshao, but it has reasonable enough bulk to take a few hits, use Dragon Dance, and then sweep your entire team. Or, it can take advantage of its bulk to Bulk Up (lol), watch as your moves do a pitiful amount of damage, and sweep from there. It's nearly impossible to counter Scrafty until you know its set, because each one plays completely differently and can only be checked by a handful of pokemon. And the only way you'll know its set is if it gets in a boosting move, which you never, ever want to let it do.

I say everything above with as an experienced (although still sucky) UU PO Beta player, where we've had Mienshao, Scrafty, and even Toxicroak (until this last month) for ages now.

[Forsety]

Originally Posted by Fat JayHankEdLyon

Standard BU Scrafty with even a single Bulk Up takes 43-53% from Bulkytop's Close Combat. It can then Drain Punch to win out, as Close Combat slowly lowers Hitmontop's defenses.

I will never understand why people do this. Why the hell would you run Close Combat on a 'bulkytop' and lose Top's one redeeming strength when he can simply HJK it's targets to hell. It's not as if it's hard to show some restraint if you see a ghost.

I mean if you really want reliability then use Revenge for the same power and no defense drops, its not as if Top is outspeeding anything significant anytime soon.

In other news I reeeeeeeeeally wish there were reliable Togekiss counters not named Zapdos and Raikou. Seriously. My team's once again great against everything but Togekiss.

Don't think it exists quite frankly, there is something disheartening when you watch a Lanturn die to 14 flinches in a row while non-paralyzed. Also Crobat should never beat Togekiss, I've used it long enough to know it's quite frankly impossible unless you run some retarded Toxic stallbat and that disregards Togekiss able to simply Body Slam for its paralysis or any of the other combinations of flinchax/NP/BP/defensive.

Um, guys, how did we let escavalier drop to RU? It's easily one of the top 20 pokes in the metagame, maybe even top 10, and it may not even be an exaggeration to call it top 5. It OHKOs about 80% of the tier, and I think everything else is 2HKOd.

As much as I like it, it's also a one trick pony and has shit all for a movepool and it's a huge momentum loser. It's virtually asking for a Zapdos to switch in and Heat Wave all over it or Gligar to come in and start setting up. Dusclops and Registeel have also been wildly popular lately and Esca does nothing to either of them.

Not to mention Rotom-H is a fantastic defensive pivot and with Sand gone now Bulky Arcanine is freakin godly and there is also Empolean who makes up a core for defensive teams which are exactly the kind of thing Escavalier is not meant to fear but does.

Plus with the new changes Qwilfish, Crobat, Cofagrigus and Nidoqueen usage is predicted to rise and Esca is incapable of dealing with any of these. Well maybe Crobat if it gets a luck Iron Head in.

[PK Gaming]

Ditto is amazing in UU. I know many players are dissuaded from using it because they want to try new threats / they don't want to mess with their teams but Ditto is incredible. UU is home to some of the hardest offensive Pokemon to check in the tier. Raikou, Zapdos, Kingdra, Darmanitan... to name a few. With Ditto in your pocket your always guaranteed to get damage on these, making them easier to deal with in general. It's got its flaws (stall teams basically laugh at you / sub users can turn it into a liability) but it hasn't let me down thus far.

The best feeling in the world is revenge killing +1 Kingdra and reverse sweeping with outrage.

[Silvershadow234]

I find that DD Scrafty makes an excellent stall breaker. With Lum Berry and Shed Skin, it can easily set-up against pretty much everything thanks to it's bulk-even Slowbro and Dusclops become set-up bait due to Scrafty's Dark typing. I believe that that is what makes him a great mon in the metagame though-his typing. Unlike Heracross or Meinshao, he can threaten out some of the best walls in the tier-and with Ice Punch, not even Gligar can wall this beast. It needs the right team support though-and plenty of entry hazards, but this guy is a formidable attacker. After 2 Dragon Dances, which sometimes really isn't hard at all thanks to Lum Berry and his great bulk, he can finish teams off with ease.

Looking forward to testing Ditto too, and Meinshao, but Roserade seems to fit Amoonguss's role better I think. Roserade has Spikes/Toxic Spikes, as well as more reliable recovery in Synthesis/Rest and the ability to switch out of status, like Sleep and burn. I reckon Amoonguss is going to make a great special wall, but not as good as Roserade.

[SJCrew]

I will never understand why people do this. Why the hell would you run Close Combat on a 'bulkytop' and lose Top's one redeeming strength when he can simply HJK it's targets to hell. It's not as if it's hard to show some restraint if you see a ghost.

I mean if you really want reliability then use Revenge for the same power and no defense drops, its not as if Top is outspeeding anything significant anytime soon.

Missing and losing half your HP when you are trying to check something is not fun. That is a huge penalty, even bigger than the defense drops. The same thing will happen if your opponent has a Ghost-type; you have to spend the entire match predicting before you get to use your STAB. This is the same kind of thing that makes Solarbeam such shit in OU.

Top has trouble damaging even things like Rhyperior and Porygon-2 with Close Combat (both of which are slower and will capitalize on your poor decision to use Revenge), so the power increase won't be anything to shout about. Especially when the price you pay is randomly losing half its HP 10% of the time or vs a Ghost. It's like you gain the chance to crit yourself. >_>

[M BLADE]

Well, i always thought Low Sweep is the finest alternative to Close Combat is you don't mind the loss in power; it is still a 90BP STAB attack that also lowers speed. But of course, Hitmontop won't be hitting anything really hard with Low Sweep.

[jony2D]

No one mentioned Quagsire to counter DD Scrafty...

[bluemon]

Originally Posted by Fat M BLADE

Well, i always thought Low Sweep is the finest alternative to Close Combat is you don't mind the loss in power; it is still a 90BP STAB attack that also lowers speed. But of course, Hitmontop won't be hitting anything really hard with Low Sweep.

All bulky hitmontops use intimidate as the ability

[JayHankEdLyon]

Originally Posted by Fat jony2D

No one mentioned Quagsire to counter DD Scrafty...

I think it's sort of a given. Any physical pokemon that has to set up and doesn't have a grass-type attack is generally countered by Swagsire.

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Top has trouble damaging even things like Rhyperior and Porygon-2 with Close Combat (both of which are slower and will capitalize on your poor decision to use Revenge)

Revenge has a priority of -4, so it will almost always go last.

The real concern with Revenge is that it lets sweepers set up in your face while only eating a 60 BP attack before ohkoing you, especially bulky sweepers like DD Kingdra. Even Cobalion, who is hit SE by revenge, only takes 31.6% - 37.2% from an unboosted one, meaning it can SD again to get to +3 and safely sweep the rest of your team.

Personally, were I to use bulkytop, I'd use Low Kick or Low Sweep, depending on what I wanted to check.

[SJCrew]

Revenge has a priority of -4, so it will almost always go last.

That's the gist of our exchange. Hitmontop has no business using a move that makes him slower and too weak to defeat his checks, since there are quite a few things slower than Hitmontop in UU. Snorlax, Registeel, and even Scrafty to name a few. If they can get that extra Seismic Toss or Body Slam in to weaken you further, you'll regret Revenge right away. Close Combat is barely doing the kind of damage it needs to as it is, but with Top, it's the best we can ask for.

[Heysup]

If you're using Bulky Top for any reason other than to Intimidate stuff and use Rapid Spin...don't. It can't check much reliably. It can't reliably deal with Scrafty or Cobalion because they fuck you up with their STAB moves even after -1 and they can just switch out and since you're Hitmontop the only thing you can really do is Spin on that extra turn.

[Forsety]

Originally Posted by Fat jony2D

No one mentioned Quagsire to counter DD Scrafty...

But it technically doesn't.

LO Scrafty has a pretty good chance at a 2HKO using HJK on full physical Quag which very rarely anyone runs so it's usually weaker. Quag is only effective against the BU versions which is arguably Scrafty's worst set in UU, it especially doesn't help that on top of Crobat, Togekiss also basically stomps all over it.

Actually on that note my experiences so far fighting against Scrafty is Bulk Up simply takes too long to get started something you don't want with a fighting weakness. However DD Scrafty is definitely dangerous and the attempt to playdown it's effectiveness simply because of it's speed is misguided because it's very easy to tweak it's DD set to throw people off.

On another note the standard priority scout Mienshao is a waste of space, Baton Pass is where the true threat lies. Mienshao is unpredictable as hell with Baton Pass you can't tell if it'll Calm Mind/Sub or Bulk Up or outright kick you in your jaw. I have seen BP seeing effective use and what makes it possible is Regenerator and it's balanced offensive stats. Swords Dance/Agility/Work Up doesn't tend to work as well however, it's mainly the defensive boost that makes it that little harder to bring down. After seeing it in action this guy is possibly one of the most dangerous additions to any hyper offensive team if you build it properly.

Some other observations I've made.

Ditto - Not to be underestimated, he loses some of the potency he has in OU/Ubers but in UU it's basically the grey line for effective Ditto usage. He is still a fantastic check to any offensive team.

Heracross- Scarf Moxie Heracross is a complete dick. That is all.

Cincinno- Skill Link CBCinno is destructive, if your wall isn't in perfect condition it'll get trampled over. Also King's Rock Skill Link Cincinno is very haxy but completely trollworthy, don't use LO though it hurts.

Azumarill- One of the surprise improvements Bounce is a completely rageworthy addition giving coverage on top of that paralysis hax which can turn a match around.

Braviary- Why aren't people using this thing? Bulk Up/Roost is utterly devastating and incredibly hard to bring down.

Machamp- Completely fallen from grace. Too many things in UU now either overpower it, take hits better or have more utility. I wouldn't be surprised if Machamp falls into RU because I just can't see a actual use for it anymore.

If you're using Bulky Top for any reason other than to Intimidate stuff and use Rapid Spin...don't. It can't check much reliably. It can't reliably deal with Scrafty or Cobalion because they fuck you up with their STAB moves even after -1 and they can just switch out and since you're Hitmontop the only thing you can really do is Spin on that extra turn.

Pretty much accurate actually, I rarely even attack when I use it usually opting for a Toxic here and there spliced in with my Rapid Spins and Intimidate abuse. However when push comes to shove and you're forced to attack the extra power of HJK without the defense drops is sometimes useful.

[EonX-]

I just don't think HJK is worth it on Hitmontop since it attracts Ghost types in the first place. Add to the fact that most of the Pokemon Hitmontop is going to hit with CC will move before Top, the defense drops don't mean nearly as much since you can easily switch out to a Pokemon that can better handle the opponent before Top's lowered defenses are exploited. Need to try all these new things in UU though. Hoping Mienshao will be really good.