Pocket's List - Do these OU need Revamps?

[Pocket]

QC peeps got lists of Pokes with OU analyses on-site, and we must figure out what needs a full revamp and what only requires minor revisions that can be done by site staffers (w/o going through QC). You guys are free to provide input here. Ultimately, other QC people and I will make the final call. Please only contribute on the Pokemon / sets that you have play experience in the new BW2 meta. I will update this OP with my thoughts. The decision will be made by Tuesday.

Aerodactyl
- Initial Impressions

• Scrap Hone Claws
• Stealth Rock goes first
• Offensive goes second
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: yes

Final Verdict: Yes to Aerodactyl's Revamp

Bronzong
- Initial Impressions

• Scrap Tank
• Scrap Dual Screens
• OU-worthy: hardly, but yes...
• OU Revamp?: no

- AccidentalGreed's edit:
~ re-consider tank set?

- PillsburyDoughboy's edit:
~ Tornadus, Mamoswine, and non-Gravity Landorus counter / check
~ Trick & Macho Brace; Hypnosis
~ revamp worthy - yes

- jc104's edit:
~ tank set stays
~ scrap defensive Trick Room

Final Verdict: Yes to Bronzong's Revamp (largely fine-tuning Tank set; test Trick & Macho Brace)

Cradily
- Initial Impressions

• eww, why
• OU-worthy: no
• OU Revamp?: no

- Cherub Agent's edit:
~ Cradily is usable in sand teams

- PillsburyDoughBoy's edit:
~ No to Cradily's revamp

Final Verdict: Delete Cradily's OU Analysis

Durant
- Initial Impressions

• Superpower :0
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: yes

- pokemon0078's edit:
~ Entrainment Traunt Durant 0_o

Final Verdict: Yes to Durant's revamp

Flygon
- Initial Impressions

• OU-worthy: not sure - requires re-test
• OU Revamp?: no

- shrang's edit:
~ Flygon is as effective and ineffective as BW1

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Flygon

Haxorus
-Initial Impressions

• Replace Brick Break for Superpower on CB set; Primary slash Aqua Tail > Dragon Claw
• Move Dragon Dance over Double Dance; replace Brick Break / Taunt with Superpower / Aqua Tail
• Superpower / Aqua Tail > Brick Break / Taunt on Swords Dance
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: yes

Final Verdict: Yes to Haxorus's Revamp

Jynx
- Initial Impressions

• Sub LK NP still effective as ever, imo. Thick Fat Mamoswine and CM Keldeo may be a bitch, though
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: no

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Jynx

Machamp
- Initial Impressions

• no substantial changes
• OU-worthy: hardly, but yes
• OU Revamp?: no

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Machamp

Nidoking
- Initial Impressions

• Have Stealth Rock now, but nothing more
• Scrap Scarf
• Scrap Hone Claws
• OU-worthy: hardly, but yes
• OU Revamp?: no

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Nidoking

Roserade
- Initial Impressions

• no substantial changes
• Roserade's analysis could still use a bit of an update, imo
• Remove Grass Knot or Giga Drain from Toxic Spikes
• Add offensive set (Sleep Powder + 3 Atks)?
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: yes

- yondie's edit:
~ Mention Roserade as a check to Keldeo

Final Verdict: Yes to Roserade's Revamp

Scrafty
- Initial Impressions

• no substantial changes
• OU-worthy: hardly, but yes
• OU Revamp?: no

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Scrafty

Staraptor
- Initial Impressions

• Not too keen on the Life Orb set
• Add SubRoost set
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: no

- AccidentalGreed's edit:
~keep Life Orb set

- jc104's edit:
~ Sub Roost sucks; LO is questionable
~ Final Gambit on Scarf set

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Staraptor; test Life Orb

Toxicroak
- Initial Impressions

• Scrap Nasty Plot
• Scrap Bulk Up
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: no

- AccidentalGreed's edit:
~ test Bulk Up Toxicroak

- jc104's edit:
~ yes to revamp, due to Drain Punch + Ice Punch compatability

Final Verdict: Yes to Toxicroak's Revamp

Weavile
- Initial Impressions

• No substantial changes
• OU-worthy: yes
• OU Revamp?: no

- AccidentalGreed's edit:
~ more Speed on sets with Ice Punch to outrun Tornadus-T

- PillsburyDoughBoy's edit:
~ yes to revamp necessary for its ability to check the high usage of Lati@s, Therians, Starmie

- jc104's edit:
~ No to revamp

Final Verdict: No Revamp for Weavile

Thanks!

[AccidentalGreed]

Nobody commented yet :o

Okay, here's what I have to say.

• Bronzong's Tank set is sort of his best and standard set. Maybe you can enlighten on this, since it's basically the only set I've ever seen him run? I have no problem scrapping dual screens.

• Cradily: I have absolutely no experience with this thing outside of absolutely beating him with any of my given teams. No problems scrapping its OU Analysis.

• Durant: You may want to revamp it, yes, and explain why Stone Edge is so horrible with Hustle (its accuracy becomes worse than Hypnosis). Superpower + updated threats is definitely worth a revamp.

• Flygon: I'll let Shrang be the judge of this.

• I'll help you with the OU Revamp. I won't go into much detail outside of the fact that Haxorus does deserve one.

• Jynx: yeah, I think we should leave this one alone.

• Machamp: It sucks, but that 100% accurate Dynamicpunch is hard to ignore. It may need a little cleaning here and there so we can compare Machamp to other Fighting-types (like how even Skarmory isn't a safe switch-in). Also, we need to emphasize how Machamp's bulk isn't exactly up to par.

• Nidoking: all of its moveslots are too precious to try fitting in Stealth Rock, I believe. Not exactly worth a revamp. And yeah, scrap the two.

• Scrafty: It's worth adding Ditto in here, seeing as Scrafty is weak to one of its STABs.

• Roserade: someone else is handling this, but yeah, I discussed this with a few peeps; it definitely needs another looking at.
• Staraptor: YES. Okay, since I'm the only guy who's ever used Staraptor, I'd like to say that Reckless is pretty much viable on all sets. Having an extra boost behind its attacks makes it obnoxiously strong; so strong, in fact, that its Brave Bird outdamages Salamence's Outrage. Life Orb is definitely worth a shot due to the amount of power behind its attacks, in addition to the ability to switch moves. Obviously, the Life Orb recoil is kinda "eh," but the results are much worth it. May need a small rewrite because I wrote too much (being the original author of the analysis). SubRoost is fine because Staraptor may cause switches, though this needs QC.

• Toxicroak: needs some retesting, since Bulk Up being its first set is sorta suspect.

• Since Tornadus-T is growing popular by the day, Weavile needs a little extra speed to do so. Using Life Orb Ice Shard isn't enough, since, even with Stealth Rock support, there's that chance it will never KO (LO Ice Shard only does 66% - 78%, while CB can "kinda" seal the deal with 74.7% - 88.7%). On Ice Punch-less sets, this doesn't really matter, and the extra HP EVs can help against Starmie.

Also, it may help to name the thread: Pocket's List: Do these OU need Revamps? so it's more notable when people recently post here.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

On Bronzong and Weaville:

Weavile

There are a couple of things about Weavile's analysis itself that would have to be updated. First of all in the analysis, it makes a heavy mention about Weavile's speed tier and uses it to explain why it uses 216 EV's. Those speed EV's hit 374 speed. The problem is that Big Bird (Tornadus-T) now occupies that "empty" speed tier and hits 375 speed. So the blurb about its speed will have to be reworked and its EV spread updated. It can use Ice Shard against Tornadus-T but it doesn't OHKO.

The thing I wanted to get at though is that Weavile does deserve an update she she is perhaps on of Keldeo's best partners and takes advantage of the new rainy meta. Ice Shard is a given here, it is the bane of the Therians and is the same reason for Mamoswine's increased usage. Equally as important though is the amount of targets Weaville can Pursuit trap. Rain offense' favorite spinner, Starmie (who is very often paired with Therians), is a target Weavile can prey on. Another bane of Keldeo's exist, Lati@s, are trapped handily by Weavile. Interestingly, Weavile can use Pursuit on Big Bird to kill it because it is spooked by Ice Shard/Ice Punch and it feels it can switch out freely with Regenerator. The decrease in Scizor usage to hasn't hurt Weavile either.

Bronzong

Bronzong is a Pokemon that I have noticed always received heavy competition from Ferrothorn. The niches it did have over Ferrothorn have become more useful with the advent of BW2. First of all Tornadus and Mamoswine have seen a huge increase in usage and Bronzong is one the best switches into both of them. Landorus also has trouble dealing with Bronzong and without Gravity will struggle to get pass them. I know it is taboo to talk about, but he was an excellent counter to something that rhymes with "bizarre swamp". I always thought that putting no mention of how you could tailor the EV's to certain threats was kinda of strange >_> Lastly, Trick+Macho Brace is great in an offensive metagame such as this and not even a slash for Hypnosis. Hypnosis is unreliable, but considering how powerful Sleep is in BW and Bronzong has a lot of bulk to get many chances, I think it is worth it.

[Jukain]

Durant
Superpower is by and far the main addition, but Scarf Entrainment with its released DW ability in Truant could greatly benefit setup sweepers, particularly CM Gothitelle (similar to DW Chandelure).

[Pocket]

Thanks for the quality input, guys - it's a big help. Edited your inputs on the OP for my reference.

AG and Pillsbury - okay, Bronzong's tank set may most likely stay. Bronzong and Weavile may very well deserve a full re-vamp for their ability to check / counter new BW2 threats :d

Okay, AG - Bulk Up Toxicroak should probably be tested. However, it should probably move under Swords Dance

haha, interesting suggestion for Durant, pokemon0078! Definitely going to note that :d

[jc104]

• Bronzong: I'd agree that the tank set has to stay. It's clearly the most common set and does counter quite a few nasty things. The set I would question the most is TR support. I mean, TR is pretty damn bad, for starters. Even in a specialised TR, I would rather use an offensive set. Using a defensive Trick Roomer is just wasting precious turns.

• Cradily: I think you and AG are being a little bit harsh. Its typing gives it some nice resistances, and its ability immunity to water (very useful in rainy meta). It's defenses are impressive, especially in sand. The problem here is that most of my opponents seem to do dumb things like get it Toxic'd and continue to set up with Stockpile or something. It's being used badly against you by bad players.

• Staraptor: I used Staraptor quite a bit when I was worried it was going to be the focus of the CCAT (obviously not with BW2 changes). The main conclusion I came to was not to use SubRoost under any circumstances. It really was pretty shockingly bad. Yes, Staraptor can cause switches, but the process of roosting on the switch was an absolute waste of a turn. For it to be remotely worth it I had to keep SR off the field. Staraptor couldn't stall anything out or even heal in the face of anything with roost. Most of my opponents simply elected to kill staraptor rather than attempting to status it. In other words, both substitute and roost were wasted moveslots, and achieved little in combination. I'd agree with the current analysis that band is the best set and scarf the second best. Perhaps Final Gambit deserves a mention on scarf because at 100% it OHKOes Skarm after SR. I'd agree that Life Orb is very questionable. I did not find that the ability to Roost outweighed the extra recoil from LO.

• Toxicroak: Needs a total revamp IMO, because Drain Punch is now legal with Ice Punch, which I think would change some or all of its physical sets (maybe not subpunch, but that illegality may have been half the reason to use SubPunch anyway). I think it should be slashed on the bulk up set with sub or sucker punch (the set is quite a lot better when it can hit everything btw), and should be slashed with/replace Cross Chop on SD. Running a less offensive SD set is now a distinct option too.

• Weavile: I don't believe it's necessary to do a full revamp to change an EV Spread a little, and to add in an extra sentence or two about how Weavile checks certain threats, especially when said threats may decrease in usage after people get bored of them.

[Cherub Agent]

Regarding Cradily

Cradily is definetly usable on OU Sand teams. It also now has the ability to run all three of Storm Drain, Giga Drain and Stealth Rock on one set, which it couldn't previously. If the analysis is already up, I certainly don't think that we should scrap it; just modify it a wee bit with this new combination.

[shrang]

Yeah, reflecting what everyone else said, Staraptor definitely needs to keep its OU analysis, not only because it's good, but simply because it's BL, which means OU is the lowest tier you're allowed to use it in.

Regarding Flygon, I haven't tested in BW2, but I really can't see much changing for it. It's as good and bad as it used to be. He hasn't got any extra counters that make him unviable or any Pokemon that he does really well against. It doesn't look like he'll need a revamp either due to this reason. I'd say just keep it for now, maybe SCMS in some mentions of the new released Pokemon after we get everything out of the way. Unless it is decided that Garchomp stay in OU for an extended period of time, I see no reason to remove Flygon.

[Arcticblast]

I've expressed my desire to revamp Roserade's analysis (right now I'm working on a writeup for a BW OU offensive set, for the record) but haven't really gotten a chance to test it in BW2 yet. I'm afraid it won't be able to hold up to the new metagame (destroyed by the Therians and barely a shaky check to Keldeo) though.

[Pocket]

Thanks for more inputs!

Yea, okay, Bronzong's defensive set should stay and it only needs one Trick Room set. Explosion should be slashed with Hypnosis.

No body uses Cradily if they honestly want to win, not even on Sand teams - I'd rather use Celebi or Latias to deal with Rain threats. It wasn't used in BW1, and it has only gotten worse in BW2, with the new Rain threats having very little problem crushing it.

Flygon will be left as is, until further testing.

Staraptor's Life Orb set will stay for now.

Toxicroak's Bulk Up requires further testing, but Swords Dance should be the primary set, imo.

Still on the fence about Weavile needing a revamp
~ EDIT: okay, after looking at the on-site analysis, Weavile doesn't seem to need much of a revamp. Life Orb should be the primary item over Choice Band, imo.

[Afti]

I found BulkyCroak really effective in early BW, capable of taking a beating and OHKOing a ton of stuff in return after a couple Bulk Ups, but I haven't used it in some time; that said, its time has probably passed. Metagame shifts have been anything but kind to it ever since its inception, and with B2W2 introducing the Therian formes (which, if they don't delay switching in, can force Toxicroak out with ease, especially in its beloved rain) it's probably nowhere nearly as useful.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Cradily is a horrible defensive Pokemon. One of my very first teams used it as a Sp. Def wall and only after a couple of months of playing did I realize how crap it was xD My reasoning is outlined here. It is outclassed by Gastrodon and TTar itself by miles.

If Cradily has anything going for it in OU its a Curse+Suctioin Cups set but that is stretching it.

[yondie]

Bronzongs tank set shouldn't be scrapped

reference logs as to why

---

<yondie> Pocket
<yondie> quick question
<yondie> why would you want to scrap the 'tank set'
<%AccidentalGreed> I'll just say that the other types of Breloom are used conservatively
<yondie> on bronzong
<+Pocket> yea, i decided to keep it
<+Pocket> at first
<yondie> i highly disagree
<+Pocket> i figured the TR set can do what tank set does but more
<+Pocket> but that was a hasty decision on my part
<yondie> Zong needs at least 1 set
<yondie> that isn't made for TR teams
<yondie> if its only running TR sets not ou worthy
<+Pocket> yea
<yondie> since tr is like 1/75 teams
<yondie> probably
<yondie> tank set is still a great lando counter
<yondie> as well as gliscor
<+Pocket> definitely
<yondie> and dragons (especially under rain)
<+Pocket> it could beat cm sub jirachi with eq
<yondie> ok
<yondie> so why scrap it?
<+Pocket> it can check gengar / tornadus
<+Pocket> yea, not going to any more
<+Pocket> changed my mind
<yondie> ill post this log in your thread
<yondie> y/n
<+Pocket> sorry for the confusion
* @Solace (Solace@head.in.the.clouds.but.my.gravitys.centere d) Quit (Quit: l8r)
<+Pocket> yea, fine

on Roserade, a mention of how it can be an awesome CM Keldeo counter/check should be mentioned.

Bulk Up really deserves a reconsider on Toxicroak because of the prevalence of fighting types in this generation and the ability to run bu + dpunch + ice punch + sub/sucker punch now.

[Arcticblast]

I made these calcs in my Roserade thread. Not sure why since that's for BW, but I did.

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

252/252 Timid Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump in Rain versus 24/0 Roserade: 78.65 - 92.5% - 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Same Keldeo's Hydro Pump in clear skies versus same Roserade: 62.54 - 73.78% - 2HKO
Same Keldeo's Secret Sword versus same Roserade: 62.54 - 73.78% - 2HKO

252/252 Timid +1 LO Keldeo's Hydro Pump in clear skies versus 24/0 Roserade: 68.16 - 80.52% - 2HKO
Same Keldeo's Secret Sword versus same Roserade: 80.89 - 95.5% - 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Timid LO Roserade's Leaf Storm versus 4/0 +1 Keldeo: 130.24 - 153.7% - OHKO

So basically, it can come in on Keldeo (even +1 LO if there's no hazards) and one-shot it with Leaf Storm.

Obviously, that's limited to revenge killing exclusively (and you better have full HP) or it loses pretty fantastically. I've never heard of Scarf Roserade before, and using that just to check Keldeo doesn't sound right.

[Pocket]

Thanks for helping me make my final decisions, guys - I really appreciated the input!