The Transition to Pokemon Showdown

[Yonko7]

Can IPhones now use PS? I tried a couple of days ago and it didn't work. Maybe its my phone, idk.

[RitterCat]

PS is unplayable for me on my iPhone, the lag is unbearable and ends up crashing Safari on my phone. I think it's just too intensive to maintain with an iPhone's processing power, idk

[Jobriq]

Originally Posted by Fat RitterCat

PS is unplayable for me on my iPhone, the lag is unbearable and ends up crashing Safari on my phone. I think it's just too intensive to maintain with an iPhone's processing power, idk

PS works fine for me on iPhone if you have a wifi connection, but I've only played random battle on iPhone cuz I can't imagine trying to use the team builder on the little screen.
Although on iPhone you can't see mouse-over text which makes random battle tricky since you can't see your poke's item/ability.
PS! on iPhone is fine if you're bored and need something to do but I wouldn't try to ladder.

[metprime1]

Just so you guys know, I'm gonna need A LOT OF MOTIVATION in order to use Pokemon Showdown, or else I'm gonna quit Smogon... Sorry, but that's the truth :(

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat metprime1

Just so you guys know, I'm gonna need A LOT OF MOTIVATION in order to use Pokemon Showdown, or else I'm gonna quit Smogon... Sorry, but that's the truth :(

Could you be more specific? What sort of motivation are you looking for?

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat metprime1

Just so you guys know, I'm gonna need A LOT OF MOTIVATION in order to use Pokemon Showdown, or else I'm gonna quit Smogon... Sorry, but that's the truth :(

Why is this? What do you want on Pokemon Showdown that you can't get on Pokemon Online (this is not a rhetorical question; I, and the developers want your answer)? Instead of making pointless comments like this, help the simulator by suggesting features and finding flaws that could be improved! We're a team here: if there is something you want to see on the simulator that is feasible for the programmers to implement, then it will be added to the sim.

Thank you for understanding.

[MOET]

Are there any plans for driod support other than firefox, like opera?

[Discordia]

I play on the server and rarely post on forums, but i had to weigh in here. some of you keep saying that PS is a "vastly superior" program, but how so? PS is inferior in every way, ( i know it is unfinished). browser based interface sucks, storing teams and stuff in cookies is a disaster waiting to happen, the chat is screwed up and its hard to see who else is online, the teambuilder is AWFUL, and the animations can't be turned off after the novelty wears off. also, how is a server that supports LESS stuff "vastly superior"? Its not like i play much doubles, for example, but it's nice to have the option. Honestly I can't see a single compelling reason to use PS over PO, PO is a program we all already know how to use and are comfortable with, and it is actually already DONE and works properly.

Further problems I've encountered on PS include the fact that i have to allow scripts, including google scripts, to even use it, it does not play nice with noscript, and i am REALLY not keen on allowing google-analytics. if you can make it run without needing any google scripts allowed I might be a little more favorable about it.

The only people i can see getting any advantage out of this are douchebags who play on their cellphones and overpriced apple toys. people with actual computers get no benefit out of PS, it is empirically a WORSE program. I know it is still developing, but unless you can make a separate, non web based version of it that i can download and run outside of my browser, I don't see how many of the problems with it can actually be fixed. Browser based interfaces are *always* awful, and "cheap" feeling. My browser is for surfing the web, not playing games. allowing cookies and scripts to run is a pain in the ass, and even with my very fast internet, it still lags for me when i try to use it. it is much easier to accidentally close a firefox tab than a program as well, or have other stuff you do on other pages screw up the sim.

Long story short, I'm sorry to be so negative about something some of you clearly have a (financial?) stake in, but I hate PS as it stands today, the only cool thing is the animations, but you get sick of those after a few battles. If you can make a non browser version, or at least lose the google scripts, that would be an improvement. Also, permaban with extreme prejudice the person who stole my name on PS, so i can get it back lol ;)

Seems your minds are made up, but I urge you guys to stay on PO, PS, as a browser interface, will NEVER be as good, browsers have too many variables and limitations. if you make a non-browser version, i may rethink some of my criticism...

If you disagree with me, that is fine, but please stop calling it a "superior" sim, because that is simply and obviously not true.

[RitterCat]

Okay I don't know much about the noscript issues you brought up, but with the cookies that is something the dev team are actively trying to find a solution for. They are also doing that for many of the other problems. This is a BETA. An animation toggle is in the works. The elements about the interface I can't argue with as they are personal preference, but pinpoint WHAT about them you don't like and something, accounting for the large amount of work the devs are doing, WILL HAPPEN. It might not be superior in these ways at the moment, but with the active devs it can become superior, along with the other aspects you either didn't consider or dismissed that make it superior
What are they, these other superior aspects? First off is that aspect you thoroughly dismissed as only beneficial to the "douchebags" such as myself with "high priced toys" as you do kindly put them. So just because we own a particular device we SHOULDN'T be allowed access to a high quality sim? This is a great feature for being able to battle wherever, whenever, is more convenient, brings more people on more often.....? I don't see how this doesn't make it superior
Secondly, you might not have been aware but our last server had bad spammer problems that were hard to deal with for various reasons. With such a great dev team as with PS, we have all the right materials to protect against these occurrences, so the server won't be crashed and unavailable for periods of time.
So yeah it's hard to shake opinion but hopefully you'll warm to PS before that time when we break off from PO, and thanks for the concerns you have raised :)

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

If you disagree with me, that is fine, but please stop calling it a "superior" sim, because that is simply and obviously not true.

I just have to say that EVEN WITH all the active development done to improve PS, the vast majority of players DO find it CURRENTLY to be "superior" (probably thanks to the animations, lack of need to download a special client, and lack of lag).

I've made it clear that both sims are still being supported, but PO usage at PEAK times is around 60-70 players, whereas PS is hitting 800 (and with minimal lag, I might add!)

Many of the issues you raised are being addressed by the dev team. As for noscript, I believe you can actually download a PS "Client" (that's really just a mini Chrome that takes you straight to PS) that should have all the proper configurations and should remove the necessity of you needing to change the settings of your main browser.

[Ketsuban]

Am I allowed to make requests regarding PS functionality in this thread? I'd like the ability to log in with my Google account (Twitter, Facebook, OpenID, etc.; everyone probably has at least one of those) rather than create yet another completely separate account.

[Discordia]

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

As for noscript, I believe you can actually download a PS "Client" (that's really just a mini Chrome that takes you straight to PS) that should have all the proper configurations and should remove the necessity of you needing to change the settings of your main browser.

This is a problem, and doesn't really address what i was talking about. Running a "mini-chrome" that takes me to the same web interface is not an acceptable solution to my problem, as the google scripts are still running on my computer. I do not allow google to run scripts unless absolutely necessary, and especially not google-analytics. Chrome is basically spyware and I would never install it.

Why do you need Google scripts to be an integral part of the interface? there are other sites that have google-analytics, but the site still works if i disallow it (including this very smogon forum i am posting on). your sim does not work with google-analytics blocked. Even Gmail and other google sites work fine without it, so why do you require it?

Originally Posted by Fat RitterCat

What are they, these other superior aspects? First off is that aspect you thoroughly dismissed as only beneficial to the "douchebags" such as myself with "high priced toys" as you do kindly put them. So just because we own a particular device we SHOULDN'T be allowed access to a high quality sim?

"just because we own a particular device we SHOULDN'T be allowed access to a high quality sim?"Don't you have a real computer too? you have access to a high quality sim, just not on every single device. should those of us with real computers have to use a worse sim just because it works better on your silly ipad?

What devices you use or what you are allowed access to are no concern of mine anyway, for people with those devices perhaps the PS server has a superior function, but only for those people. Access isn't a matter of quality per se. If PO and PS both worked equally as well on mobile crap (and I'm willing to bet it will eventually), then PO is again on a superior footing, by virtue of its better interface and multitude of features and complete nature. And for those of us who use real computers, the benefit is nil, so in that sense it is a downgrade for us. Ability to access on more devices isn't the same thing as superiority. I can play old cell phone games like snake on practically any device, even a circa 1995 cell phone, but not pokemon, does that mean Snake is "superior" to pokemon? it's available on more devices after all ;)

Originally Posted by Fat RitterCat

Secondly, you might not have been aware but our last server had bad spammer problems that were hard to deal with for various reasons. With such a great dev team as with PS, we have all the right materials to protect against these occurrences, so the server won't be crashed and unavailable for periods of time.
)

i am aware of the spamming "problem" on the PO server, and it was sometimes annoying, but not really that bad (I've seen much worse anyway). Do you really think that spammers cant spam PS just as well as PO? spam is spam, the spammers just haven't migrated yet, but they will soon enough, and you'll be in the same situation. Retreating like cowards from half-assed babyspammers is hardly a reason to abandon a perfectly fine program.

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

I just have to say that EVEN WITH all the active development done to improve PS, the vast majority of players DO find it CURRENTLY to be "superior" (probably thanks to the animations, lack of need to download a special client, and lack of lag).

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

lack of need to download a special client.

This is something people keep saying is a "feature", or improvement. "lack of need to download a special client" is not a mark of superiority. PO takes like 3 seconds to DL, and it is easy as hell to set up. updates are easy to get, and usually you don't even need them (my client is several versions out of date, and works just fine). Smogon is supposed to be the more intelligent and competitive community, is it really hard for our users to install a simple program? Are people THAT lazy that this is a "feature"? would you rather eat raw food than cooked food just to save a small amount of effort? is raw meat "better" because its easier?

As for lack of lag, PS lags for me, and i have fast internet. it also makes my Firefox use WAY more resources.

Originally Posted by Fat Ketsuban

I'd like the ability to log in with my Google account (Twitter, Facebook, OpenID, etc.; everyone probably has at least one of those) rather than create yet another completely separate account.

This is the last thing we need, it's a slippery slope before the whole server becomes a facebook social networking thing. adding that also means even more invasive scripts. we need *less* scripts.

[barry4ever]

First off, cut out the condescending attitude, it gets you nowhere. Now, like I've said earlier, above everything else, the BIGGEST draw of PS! is because Smogon wants a simulator that will cater to Smogon's needs, not to the whims and fancies of another site. Now, the PO devs undoubtedly helped us out but at the end of the day what they did was mostly for themselves and not for us. Our head administrator and server hoster is a person who is not a sim programmer and has had to improvise a lot to deal with bs like Skarmpiss which he shouldnt have to anyway. Antar just wanted to get stats and do a lot of new stuff with the PokeStats but he ended up getting deviated by the hassles of having to host the SU server. On PS!, we have a dedicated team of sim devs to tacke any and every problem which might arise, so we no longer have to improvise and resort to patches and stuff to fix the server. Antar can also focus on what he actually wants to do instead of of what he ended up doing (Thanks a lot Antar, you're the greatest !!).

Lastly, most of Smogon has already accepted the change happily and have shifted over like Antar said. You cant expect a change to please everyone I guess. Also like Antar said, PS is being continously improved and being touched upon. The PS dev team is always active and at work improving the site, so if you have any suggestions you can always go to them, I'm sure they are taking all suggestions very seriously.

Long story short, I'm sorry to be so negative about something some of you clearly have a (financial?) stake in

Are you serious ?

[Ketsuban]

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

This is the last thing we need, it's a slippery slope before the whole server becomes a facebook social networking thing. adding that also means even more invasive scripts. we need *less* scripts.

I saved you my contribution to the you're-wrong-here's-why party because other people pipped me to the post, but you're really tempting me to go pull it out of the bin and air it again.

I'll be blunt: you're paranoid, and might need to seek help. It's not 2003 anymore; JavaScript is not the enemy, web developers are not mindless twelve-year-olds copypasting virus-laden code snippets from how-to-website tutorials hosted on GeoCities, and you do not need to permanently encase yourself in e-carbonite to prevent the internet worms from creeping into your brain.

Using OpenID (or Twitter, Facebook etc. or whatever) to log on to a website is the same as using a passport when travelling to a foreign country - one document (website) verifies your identity no matter where you travel. It's drastically safer than having Zarel store yet another password on his system; virtually nobody takes sane precautions by using a different password everywhere they go because meatware for the most part isn't that flexible. It's not going to lead to social network hell any more than passports are going to lead to a single world government controlled by the UN.

[Discordia]

Originally Posted by Fat Ketsuban

I saved you my contribution to the you're-wrong-here's-why party because other people pipped me to the post, but you're really tempting me to go pull it out of the bin and air it again.

I'll be blunt: you're paranoid, and might need to seek help. It's not 2003 anymore; JavaScript is not the enemy, web developers are not mindless twelve-year-olds copypasting virus-laden code snippets from how-to-website tutorials hosted on GeoCities, and you do not need to permanently encase yourself in e-carbonite to prevent the internet worms from creeping into your brain.

Well its nice to see that when I take the time to point out some problems and represent a dissenting and valid viewpoint, I get called a paranoid jerk for my troubles. You are ok with a website running whatever scripts it wants on your machine, fine, but I am not. datamining stuff like google analytics has no place as a required script on a site like PS, it doesnt provide any added function for the user, it is just a piece of spyware. I know lots of sites have it, but most sites still work with it blocked. lol, sure, in 2003 we had to worry about script kiddies, in 2012 I'm a lot more concerned about corporate scripts. Whether you think I'm paranoid or not doesn't matter. what matters is that unnecessary scripts are being made mandatory.

You can be as smug and condescending as you want, and play the immature "we're right so there" game, but none of you PS defenders have actually addressed many of my points. I doubt you even read the whole thing, just cherrypicked a few parts to set up a strawman argument with.

This entire thing is unnecessary, and is a change for the worse. PS will never be as good as PO as long as it is a browser sim. At the very least, get rid of the google-analytics, having a dataminer in a pokemon sim means somebody is probably making a profit off of it, and if that were true, it would be illegal.

Originally Posted by Fat Ketsuban

Using OpenID (or Twitter, Facebook etc. or whatever) to log on to a website is the same as using a passport when travelling to a foreign country - one document (website) verifies your identity no matter where you travel. It's drastically safer than having Zarel store yet another password on his system; virtually nobody takes sane precautions by using a different password everywhere they go because meatware for the most part isn't that flexible. It's not going to lead to social network hell any more than passports are going to lead to a single world government controlled by the UN.

When you add that stuff to a site, it makes facebook and twitter etc money, and also makes the google script datamining more profitable. Its not "safety" I'm worried about, it's privacy. Do you understand the difference? I never mentioned "safety", because the idea of "safety" on computers is ridiculous, there is nothing NOT "safe" on a computer, unless it catches fire lol. Viruses aren't a problem, spyware is. That's all social network integration in 3rd party websites is, another form of spyware. That's not paranoia, it's just an understanding of how capitalism works. I don't care what other sites do, but a pokemon sim is the last place stuff like this should be, for reasons of both enjoyability as well as legality.

[Antar*]

Discordia, no one is (directly*) profiting off of Pokemon Showdown. In fact, until recently, Zarel was paying a significant amount out of his own pocket to host the server. PS is ad-free, and we do no sell any information to anyone.

The reason PS is not compatible with noscript is detailed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468444

Bottom line: It's a pain in the ass for web developers (read: Zarel) to program around.

Please do not bring up noscript in this thread again (although you're welcome to do so in the linked thread).

The other stuff I'm just going to ignore.


*The PS server is owned and paid for by chaos, the owner of Smogon. He pays for it out of the smogon.com ad revenue. Having a Smogon simulator no-doubt draws people to our site, increasing ad revenue. However, I'm willing to bet that it's NOT a net positive.

[DChiuch]

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

This is a problem, and doesn't really address what i was talking about. Running a "mini-chrome" that takes me to the same web interface is not an acceptable solution to my problem, as the google scripts are still running on my computer. I do not allow google to run scripts unless absolutely necessary, and especially not google-analytics. Chrome is basically spyware and I would never install it.

Oh my god, you have no clue. What are you worried about? You really think Google is the only company that records information if you go on a website with their script, or using their browser? Every single website's server records the same information about what you do, your IP address and what-not, there is no need to be so irrationally worried about Google. You seriously need to look up the definition of "spyware".

Your main concern seems to be that the scripts "makes facebook and twitter etc money, and also makes the google script datamining more profitable", how does that work exactly?? I find it ridiculous that you think this script is somehow making them money.

People overvalue their privacy on the internet so much, it's so stupid. These companies don't care about your info at all.

[blarajan]

Just posting to say that by financial stake, I'm pretty sure he meant "sorry to be talking down on something you guys put a lot of time and effort in, and maybe a lot of money too." Not "sorry to be talking down on something you guys are making a profit from."

[Ketsuban]

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

Well its nice to see that when I take the time to point out some problems and represent a dissenting and valid viewpoint, I get called a paranoid jerk for my troubles.

I didn't call you paranoid for presenting a dissenting opinion, I called you paranoid because you're obsessing over the idea Google might somehow make money off OpenID. (Go look it up, it's just a system where I can use Google as a trusted authority to vouch for my identity rather than storing sensitive data - a password - on a site I don't necessarily trust.)

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

You can be as smug and condescending as you want, and play the immature "we're right so there" game, but none of you PS defenders have actually addressed many of my points. I doubt you even read the whole thing, just cherrypicked a few parts to set up a strawman argument with.

Most of your complaints were already addressed in the thread, it's not my fault you didn't bother reading it. As it happens you specifically picked on two things that had been individually called out previously as "will happen, not a priority right now because more important things aren't finished".

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

PS will never be as good as PO as long as it is a browser sim.

So you're unashamedly biased against it from the outset because you don't like the web as a platform.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

Its not "safety" I'm worried about, it's privacy. Do you understand the difference? I never mentioned "safety", because the idea of "safety" on computers is ridiculous, there is nothing NOT "safe" on a computer, unless it catches fire lol.

Fine, let's talk privacy. Compare two scenarios: Joe Bloggs, typical Internet user, wants to use services on the internet. In scenario A he logs onto everything using OpenID from his Google account; in scenario B he registers a new account on each site with the same password (because he's a typical Internet user; he can't remember lots of passwords). In scenario A he has exactly one point of failure so all his (and Google's) effort can be concentrated on building the best possible basket to hold all those eggs. In the latter case any site being compromised can allow bad guys to get at his online identity, with disastrous results.

Now which is more absurd - paranoia that a lapse in security on a site that insisted I register yet another account and provide yet another password would result in my identity being used for nefarious purposes, or paranoia that Google might somehow make money off knowing which IPs use which websites?

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

I play on the server and rarely post on forums, but i had to weigh in here. some of you keep saying that PS is a "vastly superior" program, but how so? PS is inferior in every way, ( i know it is unfinished).

Hi! Let me introduce myself. I'm Zarel. I made PS. The past few days, I've been working on the ladder and fixing quite a few bugs.

I'm not here to insult you, and I'm sorry that some other users have. I think it might have something to do with how insulting you've been, yourself, but that's not something I care to get into.

As for myself, I love talking to people who don't like PS. I suspect nearly everyone has something or another they don't like about PS, but there are very few people like you who tell me exactly what you don't like, and I need people like that. :)

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

browser based interface sucks,

Is there something specific you don't like about the browser-based interface?

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

storing teams and stuff in cookies is a disaster waiting to happen,

I'm aware of this; cookies are notoriously unreliable, especially when a lot of people disable or clear them frequently. In the long term, I don't want to store anything anyone wants to keep permanently solely in a cookie.

I have a lot of plans: I hope to store teams on the server, associated with usernames. I also hope to have a "Download all teams" button, to make it easier to move around large numbers of teams between computers and account. In the long term, hope to make desktop clients for major OSes that automatically store teams and logs on your computer.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

the chat is screwed up and its hard to see who else is online,

I don't understand this. The chat seems fine to me. The user-list is alphabetical now, I've had several people tell me the chat is less laggy than PO. And you can Ctrl+F to find users, something that PO can't do. Could you clarify what's wrong with the chat?

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

the teambuilder is AWFUL,

While the teambuilder is nowhere near done, I'd like to hear details about what specifically you don't like about the teambuilder.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

and the animations can't be turned off after the novelty wears off.

This is definitely something planned to be possible.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

Further problems I've encountered on PS include the fact that i have to allow scripts

You do realize you allow a lot more by downloading a desktop client, right?

Here's a handy chart:

< nothing at all                           access to your entire computer >
-o----o------------------------------------------------------------------o-
 |    |                                                                  |
 |    PS                                                                PO
 |
 your average website

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

including google scripts, to even use it, it does not play nice with noscript, and i am REALLY not keen on allowing google-analytics. if you can make it run without needing any google scripts allowed I might be a little more favorable about it.

As for the Google Analytics thing, that may have been a mistake on my part. I just changed it. It should be possible to run without allowing Google Analytics now.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

The only people i can see getting any advantage out of this are douchebags who play on their cellphones and overpriced apple toys.

I think this is why you're being flamed... this is very insulting. I don't mind if you criticize PS (how else will I improve it?) but insulting human people tends not to go over very well.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

people with actual computers get no benefit out of PS, it is empirically a WORSE program. I know it is still developing, but unless you can make a separate, non web based version of it that i can download and run outside of my browser, I don't see how many of the problems with it can actually be fixed. Browser based interfaces are *always* awful, and "cheap" feeling. My browser is for surfing the web, not playing games. allowing cookies and scripts to run is a pain in the ass, and even with my very fast internet, it still lags for me when i try to use it. it is much easier to accidentally close a firefox tab than a program as well, or have other stuff you do on other pages screw up the sim.

It's my experience, it's a lot easier to make a good UI in a browser than natively. You'll have to be more specific than "cheap".

As for the other concerns, you can easily use an app wrapper, which is also planned. Until then, Chrome apps work. Also the Firefox web app - I hear support is coming in Firefox 15 or Firefox 16? You can download the Nightly now, in which case you'll see an "Install for Firefox" button on pokemonshowdown.com.

Originally Posted by Fat Discordia

Seems your minds are made up, but I urge you guys to stay on PO, PS, as a browser interface, will NEVER be as good, browsers have too many variables and limitations. if you make a non-browser version, i may rethink some of my criticism...

If you disagree with me, that is fine, but please stop calling it a "superior" sim, because that is simply and obviously not true.

I think you could be much more specific about what you dislike about the browser-based interface.

Did you know that Mozilla Firefox itself is written in XUL and JavaScript? It's true. Modern browsers are quite powerful, and having a layout engine is very good for rapidly iterating interfaces.

Anyway, I don't personally think PS is "vastly superior". It has some advantages, it has some disadvantages, and I'd hope that overall it's a bit better than PO.

[akela]

Honestly, listen to Zarel. He is willing to listen to you. He is willing to discuss ideas, changes, and improvements with you. But remember, willing to discuss does not mean he will make every change you demand like he is your slave. He wants feedback. He wants detailed feedback. You will generate a more positive discussion by explaining your issues and problems with pokemon showdown in depth. Not just saying it is "awful", that is "sucks", that users are "douchebags". Why is it "awful"? Why does it "sucks"? People are willing to discuss Pokemon Showdown with you in a civil manner.

We all really want the same thing in the end. A Pokemon Simulator that is fun to use.

As it stands, you can save your teams in notepad, google docs, pastebin (or other services/sites of that nature) if you are so worried about cookies.

[Sceptichomp]

I am very happy about this decision and definitely prefer PS then PO. :D

[No. 1 Machop Fan]

The Smogon server on PO is gone. I am now forced to pwn noobs like some lowlife because PS hates Dream World teams. -_-

[verbatim]

The Smogon server on PO is gone because its hosted on the same server PS usually is, while we are currently trying to resolve the issue PS is being supported on a backup server, which is why you can play it and not PO SU.

[Volt1]

Well the server on Pokemon Showdown is completely unreliable right now. If anything, I just want a server that works. I shouldn't have to refresh my page constantly just to get admitted in on the backup server. And get locked out when I have to refresh.