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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 6:57:28 AM   #1
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Default Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

The first thread wasn't being updated anymore, so I offered the OP (Redew) to take over for him. He said it was fine. Thanks for all the work he did.

I went through the old thread to see which entries had been written. Some of them are bad, short, unprofessional or wrong. If I felt they were really bad, I ignored them or left them out in favor of better ones I found, but there's still some in there that could do with improvement. Remember that the original plan was for this to be an on-site article at some point. I copy-pasted them rather crudely because the on-site HTML will likely mess everything up anyway, and I just wanted to get this done ASAP.

Here's a quick list without written entries, showing which Pokemon are in which tier.

Quick List


Top


High


Mid


Low/Bottom


Changes and additions for those who are interested


Let me know if I made an error.

EDIT: Someone will need to write a separate entry for Red Krabby in Low, but I'm just putting Krabby in High for now.

Now, if you submit a new entry, please follow this format.

-Pokemon Name - Top/High/Mid/Low Tier (PICK ONE)
-Availability: Can you get them early on and are they easy to get?
-Stats: Do they have a usable stat distribution?
-Movepool: Do they have a good movepool that needs little TM support? (By that I mean hard to replace TMs such as ones you get from gyms.)
-Power: Are they strong enough to sweep through enemies without taking too much damage in return?
-Type: Do they have useful STABs and resistances?
-Match-ups: Do they fare well in gym and/or boss battles?

Please write somewhat professionally (I saw a LOLOLOL in one of the entries).

Some guidelines we picked up along the way:
- No glitches allowed.
- No trading in Pokemon from other games. Back and forth to evolve Graveler, Kadabra, Haunter and Machoke can be considered, but is not assumed.
- If a Pokemon is vastly different in Yellow compared to Red/Blue, you have the option of writing a different entry for both, even if they end up in the same tier. Examples of this are Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle.

Happy discussing, and if there's something that needs changing just say so in this thread. If I miss it, feel free to PM/VM.

Last edited by Mekkah; Dec 22nd, 2012 at 5:27:25 AM.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 7:49:34 AM   #2
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Thank you for doing this! I was actually thinking of saying something in the other thread about the lack of updates since the thread seemed to be going in circles a bit. Good to see something actually happening now!

I'll have a go at contributing. Something easy I think. I actually tried this out recently for fun and I was not surprised at its performance really. Please feel free to comment.



-Onix - Low Tier
-Availability: Rock Tunnel. Could technically be obtained before Lt. Surge, so it can be obtained fairly early. It is at a level that may require some grinding to match your team though.
-Stats: Its attack stat is awful. Its high defense and decent speed help it beat things but if you are playing for efficiency then Onix is not a good choice because it often can't OHKO things.
-Movepool: Its level up movepool is poor. Slam is its strongest attack from level up. It requires TM support (Earthquake/Dig and Rock Slide) to work properly, which comes with an opportunity cost. Why would you use these TMs on Onix when there are better choices?
-Power: Pretty much what I said in the stats section applies here. Its attack stat is too low for it to "sweep through enemies", despite the power of its best STAB attacks. It can take hits from the physical side, so it can beat things one-on-one, but it isn't what I would call efficient (and it flat out loses to some special attacks).
-Type: Its typing is a mixed bag. Offensively it is quite good. Ground/Rock is a great STAB combination (unresisted I believe). Defensively, it has some useful resistances and it can beat most normal types, but it has crippling grass and water weaknesses so it will struggle along routes with lots of lasses carrying Oddish/Bellsprout. Another thing to consider it that Onix's typing is not unique. Golem and Rhydon carry more power and have similar bulk. Onix is faster but you will be at a level where you will be outspeeding most stuff anyway, making it a rather insignificant advantage most of the time. Geodude is also obtained earlier than Onix (Rhyhorn has terrible availability so it is probably a even match).
-Match-ups: Lt. Surge - wins here, assuming you haven't done the battle already.
Erika - Nope.
Koga - In RB, it should do well, but it will not enjoy taking Psychic from Venomoth in Yellow (Venonat shouldn't be as bad but they also carry Psychic attacks).
Sabrina - Psychic does lots to Onix's bad special. Onix's low attack means that it won't be able to kill Alakazam anyway most likely. Easier in Yellow (it can kill Abra OMG).
Blaine - You win here, but so do a lot of things.
Giovanni - Does ok in RB (just watch for Fissure from Rhydon), but in Yellow all of his pokemon except Persian carry Earthquake.
Lorelei - No.
Bruno - Can beat his Onix in RB. In Yellow they have Earthquake so it isn't as easy.
Agatha - Should beat Arbok and Golbat. How it goes against the ghosts comes down to luck. One of the Gengar in Yellow has Mega Drain apparently so look out.
Lance - In RB, Gyarados is the main threat. His Dragonair will also chip away at Onix's low HP with Dragon Rage so that sticks. He walls Dragonite and Aerodactyl though. In Yellow, Dragonite has Blizzard and on of the Dragonair has Ice Beam but he walls Aerodactyl and the Thunderbolt Dragonair.
Champion - In RB, he beats Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine and Charizard. In Yellow, he beats Exeggutor, Magneton, Ninetales, Jolteon and Flareon. Overall not bad.

-Additional Comments - I think what I should stress is that Onix is not absolutely terrible. It can work if you are willing to put in the effort. It's just that it is outclassed. It would rather use Geodude, even if I couldn't trade for Golem, due to the superior power. Definitely Low.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 9:42:19 AM   #3
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What about Machamp in Yellow ? You can have him with a trade with a Cubone before 4th gym (Cubone can be caugth in Safari). Is he good enough ? Karate Chop + Low Kick seems interesting
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 10:52:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer View Post
What about Machamp in Yellow ? You can have him with a trade with a Cubone before 4th gym (Cubone can be caught in Safari). Is he good enough ? Karate Chop + Low Kick seems interesting
That's true, there are also capturable Cubones in the Pokemon Tower so you can have your own Machamp very early with brutal attack. Low Kick/normal-type move of choice/Submission/Dig give it pretty good coverage. I do agree RBY wasn't the time for fighting-types to shine though.

I also feel that the Yellow list in particular could be revised with the knowledge that Super Rod nets far higher-levelled Pokemon than those you can catch in Red/Blue. Low is just unfair for Shellder for instance, as you can capture it at lv. 40 with a Super Rod before Koga and instantly evolve it with a Water Stone. Its base stats are great, it can Surf and Ice Beam, and it actually takes special hits just fine in this one generation. High tier material I say.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 11:23:54 AM   #5
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@atsync, only comment I have is that I prefer Pokemon to be judged entirely on their own merits. It competes for a team slot with everything in the world, not just Geodude. When you do that, it's still Low of course. Added to OP.

With regards to Yellow Machamp, someone really needs to test that. I'm very sceptical, because Fighting is an absolutely horrible attacking type. It is useless against so many things: Gastly/Haunter, Koga, Sabrina, Erika, Rocket Grunt Poison types, Agatha, Lance, and it doesn't even really help against Gary. Aside from random Normal types on generics, it simply does not cover anything. However, Machamp's Karate Chop is ridiculously strong.

Yellow things in general need to be tested more. I'll add that Shellder is for RB only until someone has written about it in Yellow.

Wrote Jynx.

- Jynx - High Tier
-Availability: Jynx is obtained through a trade in Cerulean City in Red and Blue, but the Poliwhirl you need in order to get it is unavailable until you have the Super Rod. That means you can obtain Jynx as soon as you get the Poke Flute, as you can fish for Poliwhirl in Celadon City/Route 10 and have a 50% chance to get it. From there, Jynx has about half the game ahead of it.
-Stats: Jynx is fragile, but fast enough to outspeed pretty much anything with a level lead. It can be outraced by something like Lance's Aerodactyl if you didn't use an X-Speed though.
-Movepool: When you get your (probably L23 or so) Jynx, the only good move it will have is Lovely Kiss. However, the Ice Beam and Psychic TMs are available to it as soon as you get it. If you don't want to invest Ice Beam into Jynx, it also learns Ice Punch at L31, and even Blizzard at L58 (though it's unlikely to end up that high if your party is reasonably large, so if you want Blizzard just use the TM). It also learns Body Slam naturally at L39, which can be used against fellow Psychics.
-Power: Jynx's Special is pretty good, Attack not so much. However, its attacking moves are backed by high base power, STAB, AND usually a type advantage, so it tends to destroy everything from the getgo.
-Type: Ice/Psychic is the best offensive typing you could get in-game, probably. Both of its types hit super effective on a lot of common and important enemies. Jynx's weaknesses generally don't end up being exploited because the types it's weak to are fairly rare other than perhaps Fire, plus it's so fast and powerful that whatever gets hit by it ends up crumbling. For example, it's weak to Rock Slide, but Jynx isn't afraid of Rhydon.
-Match-ups: The best part about Jynx. With just the Psychic TM, Jynx can go the distance against Team Rocket in Silph Co., the Fighting Dojo, the Bikers on the Cycling Road, Erika and Koga. It might not OHKO all of these right away, but it grows really fast thanks to the trade EXP bonus, so it will soon enough. Ice Punch or Ice Beam works well against Giovanni's gym. From there, Jynx does fine against Lorelei (though if you want to conserve her PP, its best to leave her out of that one), and then proceeds to massacre Bruno, Agatha and Lance (except Gyarados, but you can Lovely Kiss that). Jynx can also assist in battles against Gary, able to do a number on Pidgeot, Rhydon, and Venusaur/Exeggutor. It's also one of the safer ways to tackle Sabrina and Gary's Alakazam, since it can paralyze them with Body Slam, freeze with an Ice move, and/or use Psychic to drop their Special without being at risk of getting KO'd in the meantime.

Additional comments: Jynx does pretty much require the Psychic TM, so obviously don't use it in the same playthrough as something else that wants to use that. Even though Jynx will start underleveled, the trade EXP and its high offense let it stand on its own legs very quickly. Lovely Kiss is also very powerful in a game where you can't attack on the same turn you wake up. It lets Jynx put strong enemies to sleep and stay in with very little risk, and it also assists in catching Pokemon.

Last edited by Mekkah; Jul 21st, 2012 at 1:24:42 PM.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 12:54:35 PM   #6
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Yeah maybe it'd be a good idea to split the yellow and RB tiers since there's a lot of difference between them. Unfortunately I've lost my Yellow and cannot test it at all :(

What I can and HAVE been doing though is playing a Blue Nuzlocke, and I have noticed one big thing you need to realize...

Drowzee is so not Mid tier. Hell, I remember waaaaaay back beating my friend's Mewtwo with my Hypno using Hypnosis and Dream Eater. But that silly battle aside, seriously just look at this thing. It has monster special, great bulk and a usable attack stat. It's PSYCHIC type. It gets favorable match ups against almost all the gym leaders after it evolves at the fairly low level of 26. It is by far my most reliable Pokemon right now, ahead of even top-tier Pokemon like Nidoqueen, and it was ahead of my Wartortle (who just evolved so I can't say with certainty how they match up now). Another thing to note; the squirtle line actually kind of sucks until it finally evolves to Blastoise. This comes from multiple playthroughs that I know this.

Anyway, back to Hypno. Really, it does kind of suck until it gets confusion at level 17, but that doesn't take very long. After that it gets better, and once it evolves it becomes freaking unstoppable. Asside from Headbutt I've also taught mine Submission (buyable at Celadon department store) and it has plenty sufficient attack to use it to devastating effect against normal types. Indeed in some ways I prefer it over alakazam. For one, it's more accessable and in a Nuzlocke like I'm doing the extra bulk is well worth the slight exchange in power.

Bottom line, I suggest moving Hypno up to the High tier, it really doesn't belong alongside the likes of Clefable and Meowth.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 1:34:58 PM   #7
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I notice Staryu is completely absent from the tier list, is this intentional or am I just not looking properly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah View Post
With regards to Yellow Machamp, someone really needs to test that. I'm very sceptical, because Fighting is an absolutely horrible attacking type. It is useless against so many things: Gastly/Haunter, Koga, Sabrina, Erika, Rocket Grunt Poison types, Agatha, Lance, and it doesn't even really help against Gary. Aside from random Normal types on generics, it simply does not cover anything. However, Machamp's Karate Chop is ridiculously strong.
I'm not so sure if I agree with that... Machamp has neat coverage via TMs including (highly contested) moves like Dig, Rock Slide, Fire Blast and Earthquake. That makes him potentially great against all the ghosts, Koga, all the poisons and he could try facing Lance with Rock Slide off that enormous attack too (I'd personally use faster Pokemon with ice-type moves instead because the chance of a Hyper Beam crit is too high in this generation).

It also grows quickly as a traded Pokemon.

What you're referring to is really just the weakness of fighting-type moves not the fighting-type as such (Counter covering a limited number of physical moves, Low Kick and Submission having low accuracy and power). Nidoking and Nidoqueen also lack good STAB moves, but they have coverage through TMs and so does Machamp. They're indeed bad when playing competitively, but they function nicely in-game.

I wouldn't give Karate Chop much weight when judging Machamp though, as Machamp has insufficient base speed to guarantee that it's a critical hit every single time it's used. 85% crit chance is still respectable, but I'd rather prefer a more powerful move that's not an auto-crit that can sometimes double in damage (like something fast using Strength).

And I guess nothing helps Machamp in stopping being so slow. Accelerated growth helps a little bit though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah View Post
Yellow things in general need to be tested more. I'll add that Shellder is for RB only until someone has written about it in Yellow.
Another difference between Yellow and RB is that Gyarados is caught at lv. 15 right after you get your Super Rod. Thus you avoid having to train a Magikarp altogether, but keep in mind that you can fish out lv. 40 Pokemon with that same Super Rod in the Yellow version, so if you stress the importance of competition then Gyarados definitely suffers there solely for not being as easily available as the others.

Starmie and Cloyster are pretty much instantly available at a very competitive level, which can't be said about them in R/B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0 View Post
Drowzee is so not Mid tier. Hell, I remember waaaaaay back beating my friend's Mewtwo with my Hypno using Hypnosis and Dream Eater. But that silly battle aside, seriously just look at this thing. It has monster special, great bulk and a usable attack stat. It's PSYCHIC type. It gets favorable match ups against almost all the gym leaders after it evolves at the fairly low level of 26. It is by far my most reliable Pokemon right now, ahead of even top-tier Pokemon like Nidoqueen, and it was ahead of my Wartortle (who just evolved so I can't say with certainty how they match up now). Another thing to note; the squirtle line actually kind of sucks until it finally evolves to Blastoise. This comes from multiple playthroughs that I know this.

Anyway, back to Hypno. Really, it does kind of suck until it gets confusion at level 17, but that doesn't take very long. After that it gets better, and once it evolves it becomes freaking unstoppable. Asside from Headbutt I've also taught mine Submission (buyable at Celadon department store) and it has plenty sufficient attack to use it to devastating effect against normal types. Indeed in some ways I prefer it over alakazam. For one, it's more accessable and in a Nuzlocke like I'm doing the extra bulk is well worth the slight exchange in power.

Bottom line, I suggest moving Hypno up to the High tier, it really doesn't belong alongside the likes of Clefable and Meowth.
Hypno is slow though, and its coverage is nearly non-existent outside from psychic-type moves and the normal-type stuff everybody gets. Clefable has monstrous bases for the time you can get it earliest (which is exactly when you catch it) and a great TM coverage.

I agree that Hypno is better than Persian though, just because Slash is learnt absurdly late at lv. 51. It's just a plain regular normal-type until then.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 2:07:28 PM   #8
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Read that list, and here's somethings I wanted to mention...

1.) Where is Charmander on your list? RB version is top for sure
2.) Bulbasaur is weak to dig? I thought he was neutral? Also the review says on Lance's team he can only hit Gyarados for neutral, but Aerodactyl is neutral to Razor Leaf.
3.) The Magikarp Vs Lt Surge says "Dont bother" but its not as bad as it seems.
Voltorb has no Electric moves, Pikachu is destroyed by Bite, but he loses to Raichu though. Still, 2/3 aint too bad.
4.) You said Onix is low tier, but his summary is located in the mid tier section
5.) On Haunter: It should be noted that in the Lance (Yellow) battle, Fly from Aerodactyl WILL hurt. Trust me on that.

I will test out Machamp in Yellow if you want, I also want to try out Flareon in Yellow as his learn up set is different in that version. Anything esle on Yellow I should try out?

Quote:
I notice Staryu is completely absent from the tier list, is this intentional or am I just not looking properly?
Staryu is top tier for sure. Surf/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Psychic is Super Effective against all of the E4 except Jynx and Alakazam.

Quote:
Another difference between Yellow and RB is that Gyarados is caught at lv. 15 right after you get your Super Rod. Thus you avoid having to train a Magikarp altogether, but keep in mind that you can fish out lv. 40 Pokemon with that same Super Rod in the Yellow version, so if you stress the importance of competition then Gyarados definitely suffers there solely for not being as easily available as the others.

Starmie and Cloyster are pretty much instantly available at a very competitive level, which can't be said about them in R/B.
I caught a Level 40 Shelldar in Yelllow once and no one believed me! Haha.

As far as Gyarados goes, by the time you get a Super Rod I'd say Level 15 is way underleveled. I think babying the Mt. Moon Magikarp is the best route for him.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 2:17:48 PM   #9
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Ground is neutral vs Grass/Poison (just look at low damage), I Gen is bugged though and says it's super effective based on second type of Pokemon.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 2:24:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini View Post

Hypno is slow though, and its coverage is nearly non-existent outside from psychic-type moves and the normal-type stuff everybody gets. Clefable has monstrous bases for the time you can get it earliest (which is exactly when you catch it) and a great TM coverage.

I agree that Hypno is better than Persian though, just because Slash is learnt absurdly late at lv. 51. It's just a plain regular normal-type until then.
No offense, but I doubt you have actually used all three of those Pokemon like I have so I doubt you can compare them properly. Hypno is by far the best of all three. You mention coverage as an issue but the thing is Hypno doesn't NEED coverage when its STAB is Psychic. It has Submission and Headbutt and that's all it needs. Hypnosis is a boom as well, but I actually don't find myself using it nearly as often as would be implied by the section for it in the OP, since usually Hypno doesn't need it and the 55% accuracy makes it a crapshoot. No, I find myself plugging away with confusion/psychic far more often. And the fact that it's slow hardly matters when nothing can really hurt it anyway. I maintain that Hypno is High tier. It's not Top tier but it certainly deserves to be higher than it is now.

Oh, also I'm kind of surprised to find Magikarp in the mid tier as well. It really isn't all that hard to get it to level 20 (I did it in like an hour, before I even got to Misty) and once it does evolve it becomes completely unstopable. Dragon Rage gives you ludicrous coverage until you get surf, Bite or whatever normal type TM you chose takes advantage of your monster attack. Gyarados is also bulky as hell and can take a huge number of hits that aren't electric or rock (both uncommon move types in generation I). Finally once it gets Surf, it gets perfect coverage in two moves. In fact, in the scramble where I used it I was limited to two useful moves, and that was all it needed to be my MVP by miles. While I can understand docking it a little for the time as magikarp, Gyarados' utter dominance after evolving surely qualifies it for high tier alongside Sandslash and Bulbasaur.

Speaking of which, also in that scramble was a nearly unrestricted Bulbasaur. Which fell FAR short of my highly restricted Gyarados in terms of usefulness. Food for thought.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 2:31:13 PM   #11
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Oh yeah, I noticed Mr. Mime hasn't been done yet. He is AWESOME in game. Its basically Kadabra, except it doesn't need babying and trains fast. I'll use him for my Yellow run.


Machamp / Flareon / Mr. Mime / Starmie - still need 2 more suggestions

Quote:
Gyarados is also bulky as hell and can take a huge number of hits that aren't electric or rock (both uncommon move types in generation I).
In R&B I think the only time you fight someone with Thunderbolt is LT. Surge's Raichu. I could be wrong, but in all my years of playing it, that seems to be my only time seeing the AI use it.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 2:52:19 PM   #12
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Oh, one more HUGE problem I'm noticing with this topic.

There's a LOT of times where people are saying things like "Gyarados resists grass" or "Bulbasaur resists ground". This is NOT true. The resist message pops up in game yes, but this is a bug and damage is calculated the same as it is in every other generation. The same goes for when it says that the attack is supereffective but the secondary type resists it. You're actually doing normal damage, not two times damage, despite the games' assurance that you are. This is a well known, well documented bug. Honestly I'm kind of surprised that a topic dedicated to 1st generation games has missed this completely.

In short, someone needs to go through the whole OP and make sure all the type match ups are correct. Venusaur does NOT resist ground, Gyarados does NOT resist grass, Nidoqueen/King do NOT resist grass and are NOT weak to Bug. Etc. etc.

Here's the bug on Bulbapedia, and I can confiirm it from extensive generation I experience that it is correct.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...3.A9mon_glitch
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:14:56 PM   #13
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No offense, but I doubt you have actually used all three of those Pokemon like I have so I doubt you can compare them properly. Hypno is by far the best of all three. You mention coverage as an issue but the thing is Hypno doesn't NEED coverage when its STAB is Psychic. It has Submission and Headbutt and that's all it needs. Hypnosis is a boom as well, but I actually don't find myself using it nearly as often as would be implied by the section for it in the OP, since usually Hypno doesn't need it and the 55% accuracy makes it a crapshoot. No, I find myself plugging away with confusion/psychic far more often. And the fact that it's slow hardly matters when nothing can really hurt it anyway. I maintain that Hypno is High tier. It's not Top tier but it certainly deserves to be higher than it is now.
No offence taken. This is Smogon though, so you should expect the userbase to be adequately familiar with what they're trying to discuss. If you really want to know, I've been playing RBY since 2001 and there shouldn't be any Pokemon about whose performance I'd still be mystified. "I have experience" therefore isn't a very good way of proving the validity of whatever it is you're trying to prove. If you're here, I expect you to have experience and I also expect that you're able to argue your position.

Hypno isn't anywhere as bulky as you're trying to make him look. His HP is above average and his Special stat allows him to tank special hits well enough (not the most common type of hits you'll be receiving). He's neither Cloyster nor Chansey though, and very far from it. His base attack is fairly mediocre, and Headbutt and Submission aren't too effective when he puts them to use.

This is also RBY, the generation of insane crit rates. If you're slow, you're in for a lot of crits (as well as status moves, accuracy falls, anything you can think of), so brace yourself for CH Hyper Fangs and whatever else, as Hypno's speed is below average.

Psychic's PP is limited, and without rich coverage, indeed, you have only Confusion to fall back on, and the effect achieved with it when attacking a poison-type is comparable to attacking with a neutral STAB Surf, for instance. It's nothing to be proud of.

You're also hyping up the psychic-typing too much. It's not competitive play, it's just one of the (good) move types at your disposal, and Psychic has less BP than Surf (which can be taught to anything any number of times you like) or Dig/Earthquake. Yeah, Psychic nails poisons. And that's all Hypno nails super-effectively seeing how Submission is mediocre, and even more mediocre without STAB and an actually good attack stat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0 View Post
Oh, also I'm kind of surprised to find Magikarp in the mid tier as well. It really isn't all that hard to get it to level 20 (I did it in like an hour, before I even got to Misty) and once it does evolve it becomes completely unstopable. Dragon Rage gives you ludicrous coverage until you get surf, Bite or whatever normal type TM you chose takes advantage of your monster attack. Gyarados is also bulky as hell and can take a huge number of hits that aren't electric or rock (both uncommon move types in generation I). Finally once it gets Surf, it gets perfect coverage in two moves. In fact, in the scramble where I used it I was limited to two useful moves, and that was all it needed to be my MVP by miles. While I can understand docking it a little for the time as magikarp, Gyarados' utter dominance after evolving surely qualifies it for high tier alongside Sandslash and Bulbasaur.
You could achieve a whole lot of different things in that hour (progressing the game quite a bit), though, so there you go, that's why it's in mid tier.

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Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0 View Post
Speaking of which, also in that scramble was a nearly unrestricted Bulbasaur. Which fell FAR short of my highly restricted Gyarados in terms of usefulness. Food for thought.
Gyarados isn't there to help out with Brock, the earlygame hikers and other trainers, and takes tedious grinding to, in fact, become a Gyarados. All of this matters quite a lot, and I don't see a reason to ignore it when choosing an appropriate tier position for the mon.

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Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0 View Post
Oh, one more HUGE problem I'm noticing with this topic.
Yeah, it's been pointed out.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:19:36 PM   #14
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@Jimera

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Yeah maybe it'd be a good idea to split the yellow and RB tiers since there's a lot of difference between them.
Maybe if a lot more differences between RB and Yellow surface. From what I see right now, seperate entries will suffice. Multiple lists are kind of a pain to attend to.

Quote:
Drowzee is so not Mid tier.
Yeah, I think anything with STAB on Psychic really has enormous potential, but the only person I had vouching for it was Pocket who suggested Hypnosis/Dream Eater was dominant...yeah. ~_~ Honestly the write-up in the OP is kind of silly, acting like Agatha's Gengar is any kind of threat. I wouldn't mind if you reworte it for High.

@Lucchini

Quote:
I'm not so sure if I agree with that... Machamp has neat coverage via TMs including (highly contested) moves like Dig, Rock Slide, Fire Blast and Earthquake
I'm sceptical on a Pokemon that needs desired TMs like Dig and Rock Slide to succeed in life, especially Dig, but obviously if Machamp does get access to those TMs it gets pretty good. Fire Blast seems irrelevant to me though, what are you going to use that on? Gary's Exeggutor? Earthquake is also very late in the game. But we'll see what happens when Machamp gets tested.

Quote:
Another difference between Yellow and RB is that Gyarados is caught at lv. 15 right after you get your Super Rod. Thus you avoid having to train a Magikarp altogether, but keep in mind that you can fish out lv. 40 Pokemon with that same Super Rod in the Yellow version, so if you stress the importance of competition then Gyarados definitely suffers there solely for not being as easily available as the others.
Competition does not need to be stressed for L15 to be pretty retarded. This is almost Lapras-level (though Lapras is obtained a bit later). A Gyarados caught at L15 with Super Rod seems about as good to me as RB Staryu: not very good at all.

@Hemp Man

Quote:
1.) Where is Charmander on your list? RB version is top for sure
I agree, but Charmander's write-ups in the previous topic sucked. I've added him on the list of to be done.

Quote:
2.) Bulbasaur is weak to dig? I thought he was neutral? Also the review says on Lance's team he can only hit Gyarados for neutral, but Aerodactyl is neutral to Razor Leaf.
Sounds like the person who wrote Bulbasaur just doesn't know his RBY. If someone feels like rewriting/correcting the Bulbasaur entry, go ahead. In fact, a lot of stuff in there needs correcting.

Quote:
3.) The Magikarp Vs Lt Surge says "Dont bother" but its not as bad as it seems.
Voltorb has no Electric moves, Pikachu is destroyed by Bite, but he loses to Raichu though. Still, 2/3 aint too bad.
Yeah, I guess. In Yellow, "don't bother" applies though. :p

Quote:
4.) You said Onix is low tier, but his summary is located in the mid tier section
Whoops. Fixed.

Quote:
5.) On Haunter: It should be noted that in the Lance (Yellow) battle, Fly from Aerodactyl WILL hurt. Trust me on that.
Digging through the OP for a very slight note like that isn't really worth my time, sorry. Maybe if Haunter needs rewriting, it's something to keep in mind.

Quote:
Staryu is top tier for sure. Surf/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Psychic is Super Effective against all of the E4 except Jynx and Alakazam.
In Yellow, sure. In RB, that thing is really underleveled and TM intensive. Last topic we had a pretty good concensus on High at best, but probably Mid.

@Jimera again

Quote:
Oh, also I'm kind of surprised to find Magikarp in the mid tier as well. It really isn't all that hard to get it to level 20 (I did it in like an hour, before I even got to Misty)
An hour? It takes me about an hour to beat this game on an emulator. I calculated in the last topic that it takes about 70 bait-and-switch battles vs Trainer Pokemon to get Magikarp from 5 to 19 (to top it off with a Rare Candy). I really disagree that Gyarados is worth this kind of trouble, having used it myself. It was great for sure, but not so much better than the rest of my team that it was forgiving to slow myself down that much. And the rest of my team was Farfetch'd, Sandslash and maybe one other guy I forgot.

@Hemp Man again

Quote:
Oh yeah, I noticed Mr. Mime hasn't been done yet. He is AWESOME in game. Its basically Kadabra, except it doesn't need babying and trains fast. I'll use him for my Yellow run.
I remember solo'ing the Elite Four with Marcel when I was a kid. He's so good. Worse availability than Abra though, but I think it's about on par with it anyway.

Quote:
Machamp / Flareon / Mr. Mime - still need 3 more suggestions
Tangela might be interesting, iirc it's a trade. You could try Farfetch'd since I seem like the only person who has actually used it. Poliwag maybe? Zubat? Grimer? Just some things we have no desc on yet.

@Jimera again

Quote:
Oh, one more HUGE problem I'm noticing with this topic.

There's a LOT of times where people are saying things like "Gyarados resists grass" or "Bulbasaur resists ground". This is NOT true.
Oh trust me, I know. People are dumb. If anyone feels like fixing this, please do so, I really can't be bothered. Preferably either rewrite a whole entry if it's bad (which it prolly is), or copypasta the bbcode of the OP (through the quote button) and edit things in there and then post it in a hide tag/PM it to me. So much easier for me than any other way.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:30:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini View Post
No offence taken. This is Smogon though, so you should expect the userbase to be adequately familiar with what they're trying to discuss. If you really want to know, I've been playing RBY since 2001 and there shouldn't be any Pokemon about whose performance I'd still be mystified. "I have experience" therefore isn't a very good way of proving the validity of whatever it is you're trying to prove. If you're here, I expect you to have experience and I also expect that you're able to argue your position.

Hypno isn't anywhere as bulky as you're trying to make him look. His HP is above average and his Special stat allows him to tank special hits well enough (not the most common type of hits you'll be receiving). He's neither Cloyster nor Chansey though, and very far from it. His base attack is fairly mediocre, and Headbutt and Submission aren't too effective when he puts them to use.

This is also RBY, the generation of insane crit rates. If you're slow, you're in for a lot of crits (as well as status moves, accuracy falls, anything you can think of), so brace yourself for CH Hyper Fangs and whatever else, as Hypno's speed is below average.

Psychic's PP is limited, and without rich coverage, indeed, you have only Confusion to fall back on, and the effect achieved with it when attacking a poison-type is comparable to attacking with a neutral STAB Surf, for instance. It's nothing to be proud of.

You're also hyping up the psychic-typing too much. It's not competitive play, it's just one of the (good) move types at your disposal, and Psychic has less BP than Surf (which can be taught to anything any number of times you like) or Dig/Earthquake. Yeah, Psychic nails poisons. And that's all Hypno nails super-effectively seeing how Submission is mediocre, and even more mediocre without STAB and an actually good attack stat.



You could achieve a whole lot of different things in that hour (progressing the game quite a bit), though, so there you go, that's why it's in mid tier.



Gyarados isn't there to help out with Brock, the earlygame hikers and other trainers, and takes tedious grinding to, in fact, become a Gyarados. All of this matters quite a lot, and I don't see a reason to ignore it when choosing an appropriate tier position for the mon.



Yeah, it's been pointed out.
Sorry just Hypno has proven very useful for me (and I'm using it right now, as in the game is on and I just beat Koga literally 5 minutes ago). I used it on my very first run when I sucked balls at Pokemon too, when I was like 10 (way back in like 1997; Pokemon Red was the first video game I ever owned) and was able to succeed with it easily. The fact that I have REGULARLY chosen to use it over the Abra line says a lot; indeed if you do not have access to another game to trade to (very common among first generation players) I dare say Hypno far exceeds Kadabra by virtue of not getting knocked over by a stiff breeze while having around the same amount of power. This is a key boon in the availability category; it doesn't require trading to reach its full potential. Honestly, yes Mr. Mime is probably better, but as a catch-able psychic it's the best you can get without trading, which is saying a lot. I'm only suggesting it be moved up one tier too. Think of it like Blastoise (top tier current listing). It might not have quite the crazy amount of power and bulk some others do, but it has just the right amounts to do what it needs. The fact it can beat almost every gym after evolution single handed has got to count for something too.

And you misunderstood me when I said "an hour" for Magikarp to evolve. I wasn't spending all that time hunkering down and raising Magikarp; I was spending that time progressing in the game while switch training Magikarp against trainers. It really does not take much time if you do it properly, and after it evolves seriously. NOTHING CAN STOP IT. You can probably solo the whole game with a Gyarados no problem, except for like the two or three users of Thunderbolt in the game. I swear when I was using it in my scramble it almost felt unfair, like I was using Mewtwo or something to blow through the game.

As for the mistaken reference to type effectiveness I think I might go through the topic myself and make the necessary changes (I'll also bold the titles in the ones that aren't bolded already for easier reading, just since it's kind of hard to make out categories in the ones without it). I figure that the reason it hasn't been done yet has simply been that no one has really wanted to take the time, seeing as it is a pretty menial task.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:36:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah View Post
I agree, but Charmander's write-ups in the previous topic sucked. I've added him on the list of to be done.
Okay, I'll do an updated Charmander write-up and PM it to you.

Quote:
Sounds like the person who wrote Bulbasaur just doesn't know his RBY. If someone feels like rewriting/correcting the Bulbasaur entry, go ahead. In fact, a lot of stuff in there needs correcting.
I'll do an updated Bulbasaur and send it you you.

Quote:
Yeah, I guess. In Yellow, "don't bother" applies though. :
Agreed.

Quote:
Digging through the OP for a very slight note like that isn't really worth my time, sorry. Maybe if Haunter needs rewriting, it's something to keep in mind.

Quote:
In Yellow, sure. In RB, that thing is really underleveled and TM intensive. Last topic we had a pretty good concensus on High at best, but probably Mid.
That makes sense, the last time I used Staryu was in Yellow version after all.

Quote:
Tangela might be interesting, iirc it's a trade. You could try Farfetch'd since I seem like the only person who has actually used it. Poliwag maybe? Zubat? Grimer? Just some things we have no desc on yet.
I was planning Starmie, but I think Poliwag works better. I've used Faretch'd in-game before actually.

Trade Tangela is only in R&B, in Yellow you have to get him at the Safari Zone.

I guess I'll add Cubone and Jigglypuff to my list.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 3:44:31 PM   #17
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I wonder how Kabuto does, especially compared to Omanyte, which is High. It's special isn't as great, but they come at the same time so it can probably still abuse Surf to some degree. It also learns Slash at level 39, one level before it evolves. 115 attack + 80 speed sounds nice, idk how useful it would be at that stage in the game though.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 5:05:50 PM   #18
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Kabuto should at least be able to beat the last two gyms. If only it learned Rock Slide...
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 5:21:36 PM   #19
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Okay, so I officially decided my Yellow run will consist of:

Machamp
Flareon
Poliwrath
Marowak
Wigglypuff
Mr. Mime

Also, Mekkah, I did send you a PM regarding you on Charmander and Bulbasaur in RB.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 5:49:03 PM   #20
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I'm doing a run on Yellow, without using Yellow ... AND I've forgotten how bad your bag is small and even the storage system ... Well Pokemon 15 years ago :(

Pikachu (because it's Yellow)
Nidoking (Because of Brock xD)
Machamp
Hypno (To help to decide the tier)
xxx
xxx
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 5:57:32 PM   #21
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Can't you get Tangela in the grass just south of Pallet Town?
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 6:06:16 PM   #22
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Did you miss my Mr. Mime blurb from the last thread, or did you think it insufficient? Yellow Mr. Mime is more or less equivalent, I'd assume.

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Mr. Mime
-Availability: Before the third Gym (after you get Cut)
-Stats: Yes; its stats are really quite good. It's a Psychic-type; it can't be bad.
-Movepool: It starts with Confusion, gets Thunderbolt, and is happy from there. Once you get Psychic, Mr. Mime is set. Light Screen is a nice bonus.
-Power: 100 base Special and the best STAB in the game serve it well. It levels up stupidly fast and will get to the point that it disobeys you just out of the sheer volume of experience it receives.
-Type: It's a Psychic-type. It has no relevant weaknesses and its STAB is neutral on everything but Psychic-types. Only Exeggutor does not take at least neutral from its moves.
-Match-ups:
Lt. Surge: I'd imagine it does well, but I can't say anything because I accidentally took on Surge before getting Mr. Mime.
Erika: It will happily OHKO her team with Confusion/Psychic.
Koga: ha
Blaine: Be careful, but it'll work.
Sabrina: If you're out of Pokemon that can take on Alakazam / Kadabra, Mr. Mime can wall them both and wait for Special falls.
Giovanni: Although it's a bit risky to use, it hits hard as always.
Lorelei: You could use it here - it does have Thunderbolt - but tread carefully.
Bruno: Be careful with the Onix, but otherwise have fun.
Agatha: She's a Poison-type Elite Four; she doesn't fare too well.
Lance: It OHKOes Gyarados and does okay against the rest. Don't make it take Hyper Beams; it will not live them.
Champion: It'll hurt Venusaur, seriously damage Gyarados (hope it doesn't Hyper Beam), 2HKO Pidgeot, and can stall for time against Alakazam, even while grossly underleveled.

Tier: High; if you can't trade Abra, you might as well use this. It doesn't get Psybeam for the sake of PP, crits a bit less, and is a bit weaker, but is a bit sturdier to compensate and levels up stupidly fast.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 6:17:51 PM   #23
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Grimer-Low
Availability: It can be caught in the Pokemon Mansion in all three games, but is much easier to find in Blue and Yellow
Stats: Above average HP and Attack, middling Defense, and horrible Speed and Special.
Movepool: He should only be a few levels aways from Sludge when you catch he if he doesn't have it already. That's important, because it's his only STAB and most of his usable TMs run off his bad Special. When you need to seriously consider running Mimic, you know your movepool is horrible. If you haven't used the Body Slam TM yet, Muk can make decent use of it. Without it, you'll be forced to run crap like Toxic or Screech in the fourth moveslot.
Power: Grimer blows (especially that late in the game), but should be pretty close to evolving to Muk if you didn't just catch the evolved version to begin with. Sludge can actually do some decent damage thanks to Muk's 105 Base Attack. That said, 99% of teams will carry something that can do more damage to any given threat by the time Grimer is available. Grimer's biggest problem comes from the fact that Poison hits almost nothing relevant for SE damage by the time you get him.
Typing: As touched on in the last section, Poison is a horrible typing. This is made worse because by the time you catch him, there aren't really any more Bug type or Grass type pokemon to prey on, and most of the important fights put him at a big disadvantage.
Matchups:
Blaine- Muk can't really trade blows thanks to his low Special and low BP STAB.
Giovanni- This is a horrible, horrible idea. Don't even bother trying
Lorielli- Gets hit on his Low Special all match, and can't really threaten anything she has.
Bruno- Muk can beat all three Fighting types in both versions, as long as your level is higher than his Machamp's to negate the threat of Fissure.
Agatha- All five pokemon resist your STAB and three are immune to Normal moves. So no.
Lance- Muk can take a Hyper Beam and multiple Dragon Rages from the Dragonairs if you're desperate, but Gyarados and Aerdactyl beat him and D-Nite probably will as well. In Yellow, everything beats him.
Rival- Muk can trade blows with Venusaur if you picked Squirtle. That's about it.
Additional Comments: Muk could probably be bumped up a tier if it didn't come so late. Unfortunately, by the time you get him his typing is a big hinderance and there are many better options. You could technically beat Koga early and Surf down to Cinnabar to get it earlier, but it's really not worth the extra effort. Disappointing.
EDIT: If for whatever reason Low and Bottom are re-separated, I'd put Grimer in Bottom.

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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 6:44:09 PM   #24
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-Caterpie - Low Tier
-Availability: It couldn't possibly be any easier to obtain. Common and before the first gym.
-Stats: Butterfree's stats are mediocre. Decent Special and Speed but poor Defence and HP (and Attack). It does help that it evolves early though, since it gives it a moment to shine.
-Movepool: It has access to the powders, giving it some utility, and access to Psychic moves this early is great. However, its moves lack power overall (Psybeam is its strongest attack). It learns Psychic and Mega Drain as TMs but Psychic is quite a valuable TM and Butterfree is probably not the best thing to use it on.
-Power: It has decent power early on, but as the game goes on you'll find that it starts to fail to kill things quickly enough, taking big hits in return.
-Type: It doesn't have any STAB moves. Its typing blows defensively and later on in the game it may limit the number of things that Butterfree should be used against.
-Match-ups: Brock - One of the best choices here since they don't have rock attacks and they lose to Confusion.
Misty - Starmie beats you but it is fairly evenly matched against the others.
Lt. Surge - Electric attacks kill it.
Erika - Wins here.
Koga - Butterfree is actually weak to Poison in 1st gen so its a risky choice in RB (it should still contribute though thanks to its psychic attacks). In Yellow, none of Koga's pokemon have poison attacks so it isn't as bad.
Sabrina - Her pokemon kind of 'out-special' Butterfree. They resist its strongest attack too. Not a good choice here.
Blaine - No.
Giovanni -In RB, it actually isn't THAT bad. It can beat the Nidos, and none of his pokemon have rock attacks. In Yellow it is much worse off because of Rock Slide, Thunder and perhaps Persian's Slash.
Lorelei - You lose here.
Bruno - If you have Mega Drain then you can stop Onix before it can kill you. It resists fighting but Machamp and Hitmonlee's (and Hitmonchan's in RB) normal attacks will do a lot.
Agatha - Psychic is super-effective against all of them. It is weak to Wing Attack and Acid though. As per usual beating the ghosts can come down to luck (you have to hope that Hypnosis misses and that Confuse Ray doesn't completely screw you over).
Lance - Useless here, especially in Yellow.
Blue - In RB it COULD beat Rhydon, Exeggutor and Venusaur. In Yellow, Exeggutor is the only thing I would feel "comfortable" against.

-Additional Comments - I think that Butterfree is somewhat borderline in its tier placement. Its availability, early evolutions, psychic attacks and useful status moves are definite pluses, but its low stats and limited offensive movepool basically mean that it is just medocre on the battlefield. I think that low is appropriate. If low tier gets separated again though, don't put it in Bottom since it does have SOME attributes.

Last edited by atsync; Jul 22nd, 2012 at 2:02:46 AM.
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Old Jul 21st, 2012, 8:35:14 PM   #25
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Alright, just for the time being I might as well write up a Raticate analysis! I've used them right to the end before so I should be able to give a good write up of it.

-Rattata - Low Tier
-Availability: Obtainable on the very first route in all versions and is exceedingly common and easy to catch. Will likely be one of the first two Pokemon you catch.
-Stats: Only Speed is above average, with the others ranging from average (Attack) to outright terrible (Special).
-Movepool: Get's all sorts of cool TMs but since they're almost all Special attacks they're pretty much useless. Hyper Fang is accessed at a very low level though and is very powerful at that point in the game. STAB Quick attack is very useful for picking off weakened foes. Gets STAB on Double-Edge if you want more power, but the recoil will hurt.
-Power: Rattata starts off strong, becomes a liability before evolving, get's strong again after evolving before slowly petering off. However, Raticate's decent Attack and High speed can actually prove surprisingly effective late game, making Raticate a good choice for quickly striking fast but frail threats such as Kadabra and Jynx.
-Type: It's a Normal-Type, what more is there to say? Complete lack of coverage outside of normal type moves bites.
-Match-ups:
Brock- Will be out-damaged even if you try Tail Whip shenanigans.
Misty- Can handle Staryu fine but Starmie creams just about everything at that level unless it has a resistance and Rattata is no exception.
Lt. Surge - His weaker Pokemon are actually beaten fairly handily, but Raichu will eat Raticate for breakfast.
Erika - Raticate's low special means he'll probably get his ass handed to him, especially if he gets paralyzed.
Sabrina - Surprisingly actually one of the best options for her, able to move faster and hit hard enough to KO her weaker Pokemon. Can't take a hit from them though, so if it doesn't OHKO it'll probably go down.
Koga - His Pokemon are just too bulky and Raticate is just too frail, use something else.
Blaine - Fares moderately, but will likely fall after a kill or two.
Giovanni - Might stand a chance against Dugtrio and Persian, but the others have too much bulk for Raticate to beat reliably.
Lorelei - Might handle Jynx, but low Special and the bulk of her Pokemon means he won't last long.
Bruno - Oh god no. Don't even think of it.
Agatha - Well Arbok and Golbat shouldn't be too rough. Raticate can't really scratch her ghost types though.
Lance - Same issue as Lorelei, too much bulk on their side and not enough on Raticate's.
Blue - Might be able to beat Pidgeot and MAYBE Alakazam, but the rest are all risky propositions due to their bulk and power.
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