Torterra (Update) [QC 3/3]

[complete legitimacy]

Torterra
Credit to DTC for the original analysis.

[Overview]

• Great typing to resist EdgeQuake
• Arguably the best Golem counter in the tier
• Is one of the best physical tanks around
• Very versatile since it can use all-out offensive sets, bulky sets, and everything in between
• Ground typing is good in NU so it can switch into Thunder Waves and Volt Switches
• Has access to Rock Polish and Swords Dance to boost its offensive capabilities
• Slow
• Doesn't have a way to break through Tangela
• Struggles with a lot of common threats, hindering its effectiveness
• Faces a lot of competition in each of its roles; offensive sets are similar to Golem while defensive sets are similar to Tangela

[SET]
name: Offensive Tank
move 1: Wood Hammer
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Synthesis
item: Life Orb
ability: Overgrow
nature: Adamant
evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Hits significantly harder than the defensive tank
• Can hit hard while offsetting Life Orb and Wood Hammer recoil with Synthesis
• Still quite bulky, and takes on Golurk that lack Ice Punch
• Wood Hammer is the primary STAB move of this set since Synthesis is there to heal the recoil taken
• Earthquake hits Fire-types and is a good secondary STAB move
• Stone Edge hits Flying-types and Grass-types such as Altaria, Rotom-S, and Cacturne
• Synthesis is what makes this set unique, since it can heal while forcing out foes

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Max Attack and Adamant are to hit as hard as possible
• 168 Speed outspeeds max Speed Adamant Golem, while also outrunning minimum Speed Flareon and Alomomola
• Life Orb is preferred to give this set more power while being able to switch moves, but Leftovers can also be used
• Bullet Seed can be used to break Golem's Sturdy among other things, but one of the main draws of this set is the ability to use Wood Hammer as the main STAB move
• Swords Dance can be used to OHKO Amoonguss and Alomomola
• Charizard and Emboar are good partners that force out Tangela, Amoonguss, and Vileplume while Torterra switches into Ludicolo and Alomomola all day
• Garbodor and Cacturne can provide Spikes, while Regirock and Golurk can provide Stealth Rock
• Paralysis support is greatly appreciated, Regirock and Amoonguss can both provide it
• Braviary and Swellow beat bulky Grass-types, while Torterra beats bulky Rock-types

[SET]
name: Defensive Tank
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Wood Hammer / Bullet Seed
move 4: Synthesis
item: Leftovers
ability: Overgrow
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Puts Torterra's bulk and typing to use in a more defensively inclined set
• Functions as more of a tank than a wall
• Stealth Rock and powerful attacks set it apart from Tangela
• Earthquake and a Grass STAB give it a nice offensive presence
• Wood Hammer is preferred since Torterra needs all the power it can get
• Bullet Seed is cool for breaking through Subs and beating Golem
• Synthesis is reliable recovery since NU is weather-free (for the most part), but won't help you in a stall war

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Speed outspeeds Alomomola before you get Toxiced, rest put into HP and Defenses to increase physical bulk
• Could run more Attack (if there's any specific KOs attained with minimal investment let me know)
• Seed Bomb is a less powerful STAB move that doesn't cause recoil and is more reliable than Bullet Seed
• Leech Seed can pass healing to a teammate
• Toxic and Roar can be used to make this set more of a wall and less of a tank
• Stone Edge can be used to hit Flying-types
• Ludicolo is a good partner that can take on Gorebyss and other special attackers
• Altaria is a great partner that forms a good defensive core with Torterra
• Charizard appreciates Golem not getting up Stealth Rock and its biggest counters (Altaria, Flareon) are also weak to it
• Garbodor compliments Torterra's Stealth Rock with Spikes and synergizes well
• Together, Torterra and Alomomola can handle almost all physical attackers in the tier

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Wood Hammer
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Superpower
item: Choice Band
ability: Overgrow
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Hits hard off the bat
• Functions as more of a wallbreaker than a sweeper
• Can function as a lure for Amoonguss and Vileplume
• Earthquake is the primary STAB move to hit most neutral targets hard
• Wood Hammer hits Alomomola and Wartortle and can hit slightly harder than Earthquake should you need its power in a pinch
• Stone Edge hits Flying-types and most Grass-types
• Superpower hits Normal-types, especially Miltank with Sap Sipper but also Lickilicky

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Max Attack and Adamant to hit as hard as possible
• Max Speed to outspeed several neutral base 55s such as Ursaring
• Jolly can be used to outspeed Gorebyss, but the extra power from Adamant is appreciated on bulkier foes such as Emboar and Gurdurr (wait am I making a case for Jolly)
• Seed Bomb isn't recommended over Wood Hammer since it's not the main move but more of something to fall back on, while Seed Bomb is weak
• Fourth slot is filler, so if you want to use a non-attacking move that's cool; Stealth Rock and Toxic are the best options
• Outrage for Shelgon and Altaria!
• Emboar and other Fire-types help break through Tangela and friends
• Hazards are appreciated; Garbodor and Cacturne can provide Spikes while Regirock and Golem provide Stealth Rock
• Pokemon that can take advantage of the absence of bulky Grass-types and Alomomola such as Absol and Gurdurr are good partners
• Braviary and Swellow are good partners that can annihilate Tangela while Torterra beats Rock-types
• Wish support is recommended since Torterra will be dealing a number on itself from Wood Hammer; Flareon and Alomomola are good choices

[SET]
name: Rock Polish
move 1: Rock Polish
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Wood Hammer
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Overgrow
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Makes use of Torterra's offensive capabilities
• Torterra is just fast enough to be able to easily sweep offensive teams with a Rock Polish boost
• Earthquake is Torterra's primary STAB move that gets neutral coverage on most of the tier
• Wood Hammer is even more powerful and grants coverage against Wartortle and Alomomola
• Earthquake should be used liberally and Wood Hammer sparingly because of its large recoil in addition to Life Orb
• Stone Edge is for Flying-types such as Swellow, Altaria, and Rotom-S

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Jolly is necessary to outspeed several common Scarfers such as Rotom-S, Sawk, and Braviary
• Adamant can be used for more power, specifically guaranteeing the OHKO with Earthquake on Golem after Stealth Rock
• Life Orb is necessary for 2HKOing Alomomola with Wood Hammer, and also allows Torterra to 2HKO Amoonguss and Vileplume with Earthquake after Stealth Rock (although it's only guaranteed with Adamant)
• Leftovers can be used for more longevity
• Yache Berry is useful for setting up on the likes of Gorebyss, Beartic, and others
• Seed Bomb can be used for less recoil, however it can't 2HKO Alomomola
• Bullet Seed makes it a better Golem counter, and allows Torterra to get in an early-game sweep against offensive teams
• Can drop Wood Hammer for Swords Dance to make a double dancing set
• Entry hazards are important for Torterra to sweep, especially Stealth Rock
• Regirock and Golem are good choices to set it up
• Garbodor can set up Spikes
• Emboar and Charizard are all great partners to get rid of the bulky Grass-types that Torterra hates
• Similarly, Braviary and Swellow can break through Grass-types while Torterra beats Regirock, Golem, and Probopass
• Calm Mind Musharna beats all of Torterra's checks, specifically with a RestTalk set

[Other Options]

• Swords Dance set with paralysis support
• Dual Screens
• Curse
• SubSeed
• Bulldoze is STAB and can let Torterra get around its low Speed
• Sunny Day boosts the health regained from Synthesis, and Torterra can hit Water- and Fire-types with its STABs
• Crunch and Iron Head are alternative coverage options but don't find much use

[Checks and Counters]

• Tangela beats all Torterra sets, and HP Fire slowly wears it down after being put to sleep
• Weezing is another top-notch counter, since it can burn Torterra and has STAB Sludge Bomb to hit Torterra's weaker Special Defense
• Torterra without Superpower struggle to break physically defensive Miltank, especially those with Sap Sipper
• Misdreavus can take a Wood Hammer and burn Torterra
• Grass-types that don't have a secondary Poison typing are good checks to Torterra; Leafeon, Sawsbuck, Exeggutor, Ludicolo
• Pinsir resists both of Torterra's STABs and has STAB X-Scissor
• Faster Fire-types such as Charizard, and Emboar can switch in on Wood Hammer and KO Torterra
• Although at +2 Torterra is very fast, various Choice Scarf users such as Haunter, Zebstrika, and Electabuzz can still outspeed and kill it with the appropriate move
• Torterra is pretty easy to check with its medocre defensive typing and lack of Speed; Flying-types murder it, Gurdurr sets up on it, and most fast special attackers beat it

[Cherub Agent]

Looks great, but in the C&C section:

I'd really put Tangela as the best counter, as it's far more common than Weezing and Torterra still doesn't have a hope in hell of breaking through it. Weezing is probably second best.
I WISH that Pinsir got Megahorn, but unfortunately it doesn't :(
I generally wouldn't mention the Water-types you did, as the most common sets of both Gorebyss and Samurott are outsped and OHKO'd by Jolly Torterra. I'd just say that Water-types in general can snipe it with Ice Beam.

[breh]

If Golem continues to be popular in this metagame with BW2 changes, make sure to put Bullet Seed over Wood Hammer on the Rock Polish set. Rock Polish makes a surprisingly competent lead and can, on occasion, have little mini-sweeps if it's lucky. IIRC it doesn't need Jolly to get anything significant; just run Adamant.

[DTC]

You definitely want to put a Synthesis tank set somewhere. Synthesis / Wood Hammer / Earthquake / Stone Edge @ Life Orb is quite effective.

The set ordering could probably be changed. Tank is ok but it's quite weak and doesn't accomplish that much. It also faces competition from Amoonguss and Tangela. I'm not sure on what the set ordering should be, though; all of the sets are great. I'll get back to you later regarding this.

Torterra isn't really "outclassed" in the offensive role; it's quite unique as an offensive Pokemon. I also want to see a mention of it being versatile in the Overview. Also mention that Torterra struggles with quite a lot of common threats which hinders its effectiveness.

The checks and counters section could probably be a bit more generalized; Torterra is pretty easy to check with its mediocre typing and abusable Speed.

[complete legitimacy]

Originally Posted by Fat Cherub Agent

Looks great, but in the C&C section:

I'd really put Tangela as the best counter, as it's far more common than Weezing and Torterra still doesn't have a hope in hell of breaking through it. Weezing is probably second best.
I WISH that Pinsir got Megahorn, but unfortunately it doesn't :(
I generally wouldn't mention the Water-types you did, as the most common sets of both Gorebyss and Samurott are outsped and OHKO'd by Jolly Torterra. I'd just say that Water-types in general can snipe it with Ice Beam.

Yup, I'll do all that. Sounds good.

Originally Posted by Fat breh

If Golem continues to be popular in this metagame with BW2 changes, make sure to put Bullet Seed over Wood Hammer on the Rock Polish set. Rock Polish makes a surprisingly competent lead and can, on occasion, have little mini-sweeps if it's lucky. IIRC it doesn't need Jolly to get anything significant; just run Adamant.

Okay, I'll add Bullet Seed to AC right now. But as for Adamant on the Rock Polish set, Jolly actually outspeeds several notable Scarfers such as Magmortar, Rotom-S, and Sawk. However, I wouldn't be opposed to slashing Adamant especially since Magmortar is moving up and the extra power does guarantee some more KOs.

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

You definitely want to put a Synthesis tank set somewhere. Synthesis / Wood Hammer / Earthquake / Stone Edge @ Life Orb is quite effective.

The set ordering could probably be changed. Tank is ok but it's quite weak and doesn't accomplish that much. It also faces competition from Amoonguss and Tangela. I'm not sure on what the set ordering should be, though; all of the sets are great. I'll get back to you later regarding this.

Torterra isn't really "outclassed" in the offensive role; it's quite unique as an offensive Pokemon. I also want to see a mention of it being versatile in the Overview. Also mention that Torterra struggles with quite a lot of common threats which hinders its effectiveness.

The checks and counters section could probably be a bit more generalized; Torterra is pretty easy to check with its mediocre typing and abusable Speed.

Ok, I'll add all that stuff in, and the offensive tank will be up a little bit later.

[Raseri]

I'd mention Swords Dance in OO, I know it was mentioned in AC of Rock Polish but with paralysis support and doesn't /need/ Rock Polish. I also support DTC in adding a Life Orb tank set, it hits very hard against anything not named Tangela and can find time to heal easily. I'd also support reordering the sets. CB should be above Rock Polish, the LO set should be second. Though I think the tank set should remain first.

So IMO the order should be: Tank / LO / CB / RP. I'll give this a closer look later but for now this is looking good

[Explorer]

Torterra also gets Outrage. You can suggest the Outrage + Earthquake combo if you wish because of its incredible neutral coverage (plus something to hit Altaria with harder than Stone Edge).

[complete legitimacy]

Originally Posted by Fat Raseri

I'd mention Swords Dance in OO, I know it was mentioned in AC of Rock Polish but with paralysis support and doesn't /need/ Rock Polish. I also support DTC in adding a Life Orb tank set, it hits very hard against anything not named Tangela and can find time to heal easily. I'd also support reordering the sets. CB should be above Rock Polish, the LO set should be second. Though I think the tank set should remain first.

So IMO the order should be: Tank / LO / CB / RP. I'll give this a closer look later but for now this is looking good

Ok, finally added the Life Orb set in and also implemented all of these changes.

Originally Posted by Fat Explorer

Torterra also gets Outrage. You can suggest the Outrage + Earthquake combo if you wish because of its incredible neutral coverage (plus something to hit Altaria with harder than Stone Edge).

I actually already mentioned Outrage in the Choice Band set, since the only place it has viability on Torterra is in that filler last slot. Even then, it's not good because Torterra is extremely prone to being revenge killed after its locked into Outrage, and since it's not STAB it's not as overwhelmingly powerful as a STAB Outrage from a Dragon-type would be, so there's really no tradeoff and it's an inferior option.

[TLCJR4LIFE]

I think the Anti-Lead set deserves a mention.


Torterra@Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
-Bullet Seed
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Synthesis


With the speed and attack IVs, it is known to be a pretty counter lead for almost anything.

[DTC]

Originally Posted by Fat TLCJR4LIFE

Torterra@Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
-Bullet Seed
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Synthesis

Anti-lead is honestly not a very good set. I'd put it in OO. It's also not a perfect counter lead; Pokemon such as Piloswine can take a Bullet Seed and destroy Torterra back and it doesn't prevent many Pokemon from setting up SR other than Carracosta and the decreasingly popular Golem. In most instances I'd rather use the LO tank or the regular tank set over that.

In my opinion, the set order should be LO / Tank / CB / RP. I'd like other QC members to weigh in before you add this, legitmacy, though. All 4 of these Torterra sets are quite good.

Maybe mention Reflect / Light Screen and light clay in AC of Tank over Stealth Rock (only one of them). It'd give Torterra more uses over Tangela (well, Tangela has Reflect, but not Light Screen) / Amoonguss if you don't need SR, although you might just want to use the LO set if you don't have to use SR and you need/want Torterra. Full dual screens is ok but Torterra really needs all of its moveslots. Perhaps this should just get an OO mention.

QC members, I suggest that we shouldn't QC this until the end of the Torterra Research Group. (I know that we can't QC analyses until the 8th, just this message is for after the 8th.)

[erisia]

The only other popular Ground-types remaining in the tier are Golem and, erm, Camerupt (AND GOLURK, PILOSWINE AND SEISMITOAD), so you should really emphasise that Torterra can switch into Electric-type attacks such as Thunder Wave and Volt Switch and block them entirely. This is especially rare considering the only other Pokemon to be immune to them is Zebstrika, so it's quite a significant advantage. You should probably mention it in the Overview.

I also agree with DTC's set order; LO Synthesis was fantastic when i used it, and while Torterra certainly has defensive capacity, it tends to either wall an attacker completely or get OHKO'd by a special attacker, which somewhat reduces its merit.

Other than that, QC APPROVED 1/3

[Django]

I know I haven't said anything in this thread yet, but this is looking good.

QC Approve 2/3

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Remove the bit about Synthesis setting the Defensive Tank set apart from Tengela, since now Tengela gets Synthesis.

[MMF]

Yeah this looks fine to me

QC Approved 3/3

[DTC]

I know I'm late but put Swords Dance in offensive tank AC (for ohko'ing stuff like Amoonguss and Alomomola when boosted) and Yache Berry in Rock Polish AC (which is helpful for setting up). Don't forget to remove the mentions of Pokemon that moved to RU (like Cryogonal)

Also "One of the few common Ground-types in NU, is good for switching into Thunder Wave and Volt Switch; a niche only shared by Golem, Camerupt, and Zebstrika" - Piloswine and Seismitoad are also great Ground-types.

[Raseri]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

I know I'm late but put Swords Dance in offensive tank AC (for ohko'ing stuff like Amoonguss and Alomomola when boosted) and Yache Berry in Rock Polish AC (which is helpful for setting up). Don't forget to remove the mentions of Pokemon that moved to RU (like Cryogonal)

Also "One of the few common Ground-types in NU, is good for switching into Thunder Wave and Volt Switch; a niche only shared by Golem, Camerupt, and Zebstrika" - Piloswine and Seismitoad are also great Ground-types.

Golurk is also a pretty common ground type. But thats a pretty long list at that point... maybe don't add that

[complete legitimacy]

Implemented everything in the thread thus far, and just stopped using examples for the Ground typing lol. I'll probably take longer to write this than usual, since I'm gonna be away until Sunday and I want more play experience with Torterra, especially the Offensive Tank set.

[Zebraiken*]

C_L decided he couldn't do this analysis. (A bit late on this but whatever)