Help for new VGC organizers?

[AJ 330]

Hello Pokemon Fans!

I have been asked by a few League Leaders (LL) and Tournament Organizers (TO)for help with them getting more involved with the VGC scene. They already know how to run events because of their TCG experience, the hardest part for them is the judging aspect. With the TCG, you need to have judges that understand the interactions, concepts, and rules of the cards. The main thing to worry about with DS tournaments is cheating.

LLs and TOs need an easy way to hack check a party without the use of TPCI's software. Do any of you know of a simple Excel sheet that a judge could type in the stats/nature to make certain a Pokemon is not outside of the legal stat range (too many EVs) and could also help identify:
Illegal Ball/Locations
Illegal Move combinations
Illegal DW Abilities

I know B&W2 are coming out and many new things will be coming with it. If something like this already exists, could someone link me? I would love to help grow VGC and get the local scene growing!

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

As a TO, Prof and LL who started in VGC, I'd say the kind of thing you're looking for is really comprehensive and not something that is easily summed up on a spreadsheet.

For illegal EV's, you'd have to check everything in depth via some sort of IV calculator-type deal. But even then, you'd have to tease apart specialized EV spreads. This would be incredibly time-consuming to check a full team, and would likely not be useful even if you were to only hack-check people who have made Top Cut or something similar, since hack-checking everyone this way would take many computers/people/minutes (potentially hours). Alternatively, with the use of an outside party/device *cough* Action Replay *cough* you could load a code that allows you to view the EV's and IV's of a pokemon easily.

As for Illegal balls, that's a whole other problem. An example would be that if a Pokemon knows a breeding-move only, it could only come in a Poke Ball, but that requires you to look at what moves are possible, then affirm that the ball is legal for each and every Pokemon. Obvious hacks (Cherish Balls, etc...) can be easily spotted, but the rest requires an on-the-spot knowledge.

As for move combinations, you could try using something like Pokemon Online or some other online teambuilder and just building a person's team/moveset, and if it comes up with an error, then you know you've found something. Again, a fair amount of time would go into this, but if it were for a top 8 or top 16 with at least 2-4 computers, you could reasonably move-check everyone in a matter of minutes. This also could check for abilities provided you have a built-in filter on.

That said, all of these processes would be done separately, and the whole process would take a very long time :| But if you're committed, then that's probably the best way to make it work.

For IV's/EV's, I really see an outside device/software as the only way to hack-check. Combine this with a battle simulator like Pokemon Online and you could check a team pretty thoroughly. I don't know if PO will check for impossible IV spreads though (ex: There is no legal way to obtain a Latias with 31/0/31/31/31/31 as the PID does not exist). If you had enough computers and volunteers, you could probably hack check everyone about as quickly as a deck-check might go... of course this requires as many computers available as you would have people for deck-checking.

Hope that's helpful if nothing more.

[voodoo pimp]

Normally this would fall under the Simple Questions thread, but I'm hoping it'll generate some discussion beyond your initial question and maybe lead toward getting more local VGC tournaments going.

I'm not certain how practical this would be on a larger scale, but if the tournament location has Internet access, the best hack checker around is Pokécheck's. It has a couple of bugs here and there, but if you're only concerned with basic legality then you can easily use it to check EVs, egg move combinations, etc. Should take a couple of minutes per game if the people doing it know what they're doing. One potential problem, though, is that if anyone uses an event Pokémon, the ribbon that blocks it from being traded on the GTS will prevent you from checking it. A flashcart with this program could get around that, but I'm not sure what TPCi's policy is on flashcarts.

Feel free to ask me if you have any questions about that, and good luck with your events!

[ΩDonut]

Like voodoo pimp said, Pokécheck is the best hack checker out there by far, even checking things I'm sure the Nintendo hack checks miss. It's a website that disguises itself as the GTS, so players can send their Pokémon info there right from their DS. (The Pokémon remains on the game, no trade is actually done.) Still, using it to check every player's Pokémon would be tedious, as it is.

What you should get is a USB save dongle, like the SMS4. This lets you plug in a player's cartridge into a laptop and download their save file for analysis. We know enough about the structure of the save file to make a program that can download the Pokémon in the party\battle box and run them by a local version of Pokécheck, much more quickly then trying to send them through the Pokécheck website.

Problem is, there isn't a local version of Pokécheck yet, but I've been talking to the developer, xfr, about making one for these tournaments.

[Human]

Originally Posted by Fat ΩDonut

Like voodoo pimp said, Pokécheck is the best hack checker out there by far, even checking things I'm sure the Nintendo hack checks miss. It's a website that disguises itself as the GTS, so players can send their Pokémon info there right from their DS. (The Pokémon remains on the game, no trade is actually done.) Still, using it to check every player's Pokémon would be tedious, as it is.

What you should get is a USB save dongle, like the SMS4. This lets you plug in a player's cartridge into a laptop and download their save file for analysis. We know enough about the structure of the save file to make a program that can download the Pokémon in the party\battle box and run them by a local version of Pokécheck, much more quickly then trying to send them through the Pokécheck website.

Problem is, there isn't a local version of Pokécheck yet, but I've been talking to the developer, xfr, about making one for these tournaments.

At nationals OmegaDonut and I were discussing a lot of issues we had with Pokecheck and basically this was one of the two big ones.

I tried bringing up Pokecheck as a method of hack checking to some of the TPCi staff myself and while you wouldn't be supposed to use things like that it will hopefully be up to your discretion.


Almost everything you would want is mainly from a source that is not TPCi. I think however if some of these events are near any one of us a good portion of us will be willing to help.

[ultimatedra]

Hey AJ,
Here in Utah we use team info sheets and do checks on the stats with an IV/EV checking program and check for move combinations. Things like ball/location/etc take to much time to check, make no difference to actual battle, and delay the pace of the tournament.

Using the team info sheet we can check stats & moves while the tournament is happening. Instead of sitting at the computer waiting for match results, we get to work on checking the sheets.

[andrea]

Originally Posted by Fat ultimatedra

Hey AJ,
Here in Utah we use team info sheets and do checks on the stats with an IV/EV checking program and check for move combinations. Things like ball/location/etc take to much time to check, make no difference to actual battle, and delay the pace of the tournament.

Using the team info sheet we can check stats & moves while the tournament is happening. Instead of sitting at the computer waiting for match results, we get to work on checking the sheets.

I love this suggestion since it doesn't slow down the pace of the tournament very much. If you've got general knowledge of the game you can glance over the sheet quickly. If anything seems shady I bet that having a stat check program up on your computer would help detect illegal IVs/EVs. Did someone suggest using Pokemon Online to do that?

I'm actually really impressed that you're trying to integrate VGC into your events more! I attended the Dark Explorers prerelease in Butler recently but there were only four people in our DS side tournament. :C

[VGC Player X]

Hi AJ from Ohio!

Assuming you are who I think you are, I am the Buckeye Pokemon League member and VGC player you traded the Pokegear 3.0 to the night before States. I remember we talked about this topic at one of your tournaments this season. Unfortuneately there isn't really a good way of hack checking besides inputting stats and attacks into PO and using the eye test for Pokeballs and encounter locations. These of course take time that would unfortuneately be imperfect and potentially slow down pace of play too much. As an Ohio player I would of course be willing to perform any hack checks if I am attending an "AJ run event" but for the most part with the discovery of RNGing most players these days are honest and wouldn't hack volt absorb onto their Gyarados. I would actually like to talk you about this more in depth so we can come up with a feasible way of judging VGC in order to expand tournaments in Ohio.

[TheHungerSnorlax]

Yeah, pokecheck is the best. That's how I get my legal Pokes.

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

I suppose PO would also work to check stats, but the problem would be imperfect IV's which might mess things up and also allow things to go unnoticed that shouldn't have been. An example might be if someone had 260 EV's or something in SpA and then claimed their speed IV (no investment in speed) was only a 30, and the extra 8 EV's were spent in speed... bringing it up to speed with other 31's.

So it'd be difficult to use something like Pokemon Online to check for EV's and IV's, but checking for legal movesets/abilities this way would be pretty quick and simple (provided you applied a filter for currently released DW abilities). It COULD also catch anyone with a higher stat than is possible.

As for Pokecheck, will Pokecheck actually catch illegal movesets? How much better is it than the GTS? What can it do differently?

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat FearZeCrawdaunt

As for Pokecheck, will Pokecheck actually catch illegal movesets? How much better is it than the GTS? What can it do differently?

Pokécheck catches basically everything. It checks movesets against Veekun's database IIRC (not sure how the offline version will work, but I'm guessing it'll include the database).

[Team Rocket Elite]

Originally Posted by Fat FearZeCrawdaunt

I suppose PO would also work to check stats, but the problem would be imperfect IV's which might mess things up and also allow things to go unnoticed that shouldn't have been. An example might be if someone had 260 EV's or something in SpA and then claimed their speed IV (no investment in speed) was only a 30, and the extra 8 EV's were spent in speed... bringing it up to speed with other 31's.

So it'd be difficult to use something like Pokemon Online to check for EV's and IV's, but checking for legal movesets/abilities this way would be pretty quick and simple (provided you applied a filter for currently released DW abilities). It COULD also catch anyone with a higher stat than is possible.

As for Pokecheck, will Pokecheck actually catch illegal movesets? How much better is it than the GTS? What can it do differently?

"Functionally legal stats" should be the primary goal. As long as there exists a valid combination of IVs, EVs and nature that produces the stats of the Pokemon, there is little or no advantage for the person using the non-legal Pokemon.

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

Originally Posted by Fat Team Rocket Elite

"Functionally legal stats" should be the primary goal. As long as there exists a valid combination of IVs, EVs and nature that produces the stats of the Pokemon, there is little or no advantage for the person using the non-legal Pokemon.

What I meant was something like this.

Garchomp's attack maxes out at 394, It's speed at 240 w/o investment and HP at 420. Not that you would want this garchomp, but just using it as an example.

I have a Garchomp with 394 attack, 240 speed, and 420 HP. But my Garchomp wasn't bred for IV's or anything, it's just been over-EV'd using a 3rd party device to make it seem like it's flawless.

Though the stats may be legal, the Garchomp isn't. And what if... say... the Garchomp didn't have the right nature, but had legal stats if it only had another nature? Why would that be less legal than fixing the stats with right nature by over-EV'ing?

Overall, I'd just say a hack check should ensure people's Pokemon are not just possible, but also valid. If someone's going to pokegen their team, at least make them do it properly. Otherwise you'll run into problems at bigger events with real hack-checkers. My opinion is to not give people a false sense of legality and be consistent with sanctioned regulations.

[Team Rocket Elite]

If you have the time and resources to do through hack checking, it should definitely be done. However, if the time and resources aren't and corner cutting is a necessity, you can mostly get away with just making sure the stats are possible for a non-hacked Pokemon. It's something you can do with Pokemon Online as an inferior substitute until a local version of Pokécheck exists.

Inconsistency with the major events would be a problem, though. This is something that would require more than just a quick check to ensure compatibility.

[FearZeCrawdaunt]

Yeah, that's my main concern. Person A shows up at a local sanctioned tournament with a hacked, legal team. Person A plays with no problems. Person A shows up at a premier sanctioned tournament and fails the hack check. Both tournaments were sanctioned, why the disparity?

We of course know the answer, but the point is that for people trying to get into the game, playing the whole year just fine and then getting DQ'd from your first big tournament might be a huge let down.

[Shinryu]

I would generally argue that, at least at the local level, like Team Rocket Elite said I would aim more for functionally legal stats over ensuring something is hacked or not, anything more and it'll just bog down time since it would take a lot more effort to upload and check a team for hacks.

Now if you're at the major level tournament or prizes are involved, then I would probably lean more towards a full check, though make sure you plan for the extra time needed. Unlike deck checks in the TCG, which are easy and quick to do, this is a bit more involved, especially with no given way from TPCi and you have to use 3rd party stuff.

[CooltrainerAlan]

Well, at the regionals I went to, I caught a quick glance at the DSi screen that was being used for hack checks. they had some sort of DSiware thing going on. I wasn't allowed to see so I had to turn away, but I did catch that it was a DSiWare of sorts.

[kamz]

If we get these easy check it would be pretty easy for VGC to have events like Cities and may be even battle roads. Hopefully a solution is found!

Also is there even a point in rating if there is only regionals and nationals. its not enough events to for rating. If you win nationals your rating is #1 pretty much. Which really isn't needed since you already have an invite if you won nationals.

[ΩDonut]

I spoke with xfr earlier this weekend, and he's willing to make modifications to Pokecheck so PTOs can upload save files and have the battle box\party checked very quickly. Furthermore, we know how to set up a tournament on the save file (thanks to Kaphotics' research), so players can have their battle boxes locked and hack-checked all at registration. Whether or not the PTOs choose to invest in a $30 USB save dongle is up to them.

[ultimatedra]

Originally Posted by Fat ΩDonut

I spoke with xfr earlier this weekend, and he's willing to make modifications to Pokecheck so PTOs can upload save files and have the battle box\party checked very quickly. Furthermore, we know how to set up a tournament on the save file (thanks to Kaphotics' research), so players can have their battle boxes locked and hack-checked all at registration. Whether or not the PTOs choose to invest in a $30 USB save dongle is up to them.

This would be amazing! Could you provide a link for me to Kaphotics research on how to get the tournament set up?

I run a lot of these locally and this would GREATLY help me.

[kamz]

Originally Posted by Fat ΩDonut

I spoke with xfr earlier this weekend, and he's willing to make modifications to Pokecheck so PTOs can upload save files and have the battle box\party checked very quickly. Furthermore, we know how to set up a tournament on the save file (thanks to Kaphotics' research), so players can have their battle boxes locked and hack-checked all at registration. Whether or not the PTOs choose to invest in a $30 USB save dongle is up to them.

This would be awesome for VGC hopefully this will allow more events to be made!

[Team Rocket Elite]

Originally Posted by Fat kamz

Also is there even a point in rating if there is only regionals and nationals. its not enough events to for rating. If you win nationals your rating is #1 pretty much. Which really isn't needed since you already have an invite if you won nationals.

Even in the TCG, a person's ELO Rating has been reduced to a tiebreaker. Championship points are used to hand out invites to the Worlds. Right now both ELO rating and Championship points don't do anything for VGC but will in the future.

[Calm_Lava]

omegadonut, if you and/or kaphotics gets a plugin that locks battle box and checks it all at the same time thats easy to use i know for sure i would invest the 30 bucks into it, im sure many other people would too

[ultimatedra]

Originally Posted by Fat Calm_Lava

omegadonut, if you and/or kaphotics gets a plugin that locks battle box and checks it all at the same time thats easy to use i know for sure i would invest the 30 bucks into it, im sure many other people would too

Ditto. I would gladly invest for a program that would allow me to run local tournaments more effectively, before October if at all possible.

Currently if you run a 16+ player tournament, it has to be done via IR - that means 4 pokemon and no team preview.

[Team Rocket Elite]

Originally Posted by Fat ultimatedra

Ditto. I would gladly invest for a program that would allow me to run local tournaments more effectively, before October if at all possible.

Currently if you run a 16+ player tournament, it has to be done via IR - that means 4 pokemon and no team preview.

You can do team preview if you battle through the union room. Is the problem because there are too many players in the union room?