Retrofit (New pokes, RBY Mechanics Theorymon thread)

[blasphemy1]

Gastrodon
HP: 111
ATK: 83
DEF: 68
SPC: 82
SPE: 39

-Amnesia
-Recover
-Surf
-Blizzard

The idea here should be fairly obvious; boost and try to sweep. Yes, it's slow, but its only weakness is Grass and it's not susceptible to a Thunderbolt crit from Jolteon like Tobybro. It also has access to Recover, allowing it to boost without Resting. The slightly higher special and HP are pretty much negated by Slowbro's higher defense. It certainly doesn't outclass Slowbro, but it does have its advantages as outlined above.

[The Reptile]

Blissey
HP: 255
ATK: 10
DEF: 10
SPC: 135 (over 75)
SPE: 55

Essentially a better Chansey. Uses the same set as Chansey (Soft boiled, BoltBeam, and T-Wave). Both don't get anything interesting in this meta sadly, but they more or less already have what they want.

Also, what about Kyurem and it's forms?
Kyurem
HP: 125
ATK: 130
DEF: 90
SPC: 130
SPE: 95

Rock Slide
Blizzard / Ice Beam
Hyper Beam / Slash
Mimic / Psychic

While Kyurem's movepool is just as bad as his BW1 movepool, he gets the two moves he needs. Kyurem has good bulk and nice mixed offenses. Blizzard is the main spamming move here (which is why Ice Beam is viable, because of PP issues). Rock Slide decimates any Ice-type that tries to resist Blizzard, and hits pokemon with high special in their weaker defense. Hyper Beam is pretty much standard on things with bad movepools. However, Slash crits like it's no bodies business. Mimic can potentially give you coverage, while Psychic can lower Special (and it's pretty much neutral). 95 is a decent enough base speed, although it is a bit underwhelming. His typing, unlike in Gen 5, is really good, giving him all the bonuses of being a Dragon without the weakness to Ice. The Ice-type makes him weak to Rock though.

Black Kyurem
HP: 125
ATK: 170
DEF: 100
SPC: 90
SPE: 95

Rock Slide
Blizzard / Ice Beam
Hyper Beam / Slash
Mimic

This is probably the worst Kyurem form due to the lower Special, although he is still better than most. He suffers from Dragonite syndrome, as he cannot use any STAB except for Blizzard which hits from his mediocre Special. Rock Slide and Hyper Beam/Slash are your best bet for attack. Mimic is the last slot because he has nothing to run there. Psychic is less useful on Black Kyurem because his special is too mediocre to abuse Special Drops.

White Kyurem
HP: 125
ATK: 120
DEF: 90
SPC: 170
SPE: 95

Rock Slide
Blizzard / Ice Beam
Hyper Beam / Slash
Psychic / Mimic

Meanwhile, this is probably the best Kyurem, since his Attack is only slightly lower than normal Kyurem, while having that huge 170 Special. Rock Slide is to hit other Ice-types (cough Regice cough) while Blizzard / Ice Beam is spamable STAB. Psychic is primary slash because 170 doesn't mind the lack of STAB and Special Drops could spell doom for your opponent.

Also, can we assume Legendary Pokemon keep their Signature Moves? Or are we strictly going with Gen 1 moves?

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Its the standered Gen. I Venusaur set, now with Earthquake to hit the likes of Gengar (who completely walled Venusaur back then).

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? Just my opinion but I feel like looking at mons that weren't in RBY and speculating as to how they would function is a bit more interesting than speculating on what happens if Venusaur gets Earthquake now in the RBY environment. I mean, even the thread title says "new pokes, RBY mechanics." And I'm sure someone in the year 2000 was like, "hey, it sure would be nifty if Venusaur learned Earthquake to hit Gengar."

Actually, thinking about it, I'd probably still run the traditional standard set. Not sure I'd want to give up the high CH Razor Leaf, Body Slam's PAR ability, or Sleep Powder just to hit Gengar. Earthquake would be useful for other things, I'm sure, but at a glance I'm not sure if it would even be worth it.

Anyway, I digress... I just feel like it's more fun to think about how the stat bumped pokemon of 2012 would dominate under RBY circumstances.

[blasphemy1]

@ The Reptile: If I understand correctly, Blissey would have 75 special because its special defense isn't its highest stat (HP is), so you use the lower of the two.

[Spork]

^Yeah but through the magic of ~*common sense*~ I think we can safely say that RBY Blissey would have 135 special.

[keleyeemoh]

So I guess Smeargle and Unown just get Struggle?

[Hemp Man]

Originally Posted by Fat Carl

Yeah, but where's the fun in that? Just my opinion but I feel like looking at mons that weren't in RBY and speculating as to how they would function is a bit more interesting than speculating on what happens if Venusaur gets Earthquake now in the RBY environment. I mean, even the thread title says "new pokes, RBY mechanics." And I'm sure someone in the year 2000 was like, "hey, it sure would be nifty if Venusaur learned Earthquake to hit Gengar."

Actually, thinking about it, I'd probably still run the traditional standard set. Not sure I'd want to give up the high CH Razor Leaf, Body Slam's PAR ability, or Sleep Powder just to hit Gengar. Earthquake would be useful for other things, I'm sure, but at a glance I'm not sure if it would even be worth it.

Anyway, I digress... I just feel like it's more fun to think about how the stat bumped pokemon of 2012 would dominate under RBY circumstances.

Fair, I see where you are coming from:

Anyone wanna try a Ferrothorn set? He can be a Physical wall since Bug and Poison are not commin in RBY, meaning that Flying is his only Physical Weakness. Leech Seed and Thunder Wave are still around, but I don't know what he would use for offensive....Strength? No more Power Whip to use.

[LucaroarkZ]

Jirachi
Stats: everything base 100

-Thunder Wave
-Psychic
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Punch

Psychics are gods in RBY, and Jirachi would be no exception. However, it has no recovery so Starmie is usually better. Losing Steel typing would theoretically suck, but the only Dragon-type move is Dragon Rage and bugs are nowhere to be found in RBY OU. Unlike Starmie, though, Jirachi would have access to BoltBeam and Psychic at the same time because it can't free an extra slot for recovery in the first place. So, basic stuff, Thunder Wave paralyzes shit, Psychic is Psychic is godly, Thunderbolt can help you against Starmie, and Ice Punch helps against things like Zapdos, Dragonite, and Exeggutor (only when Sleep Clause is active), while also being stronger against Rhydon than Psychic.

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Fair, I see where you are coming from:

Anyone wanna try a Ferrothorn set? He can be a Physical wall since Bug and Poison are not commin in RBY, meaning that Flying is his only Physical Weakness. Leech Seed and Thunder Wave are still around, but I don't know what he would use for offensive....Strength? No more Power Whip to use.

I can't think of any type that is resisted by Grass that's physical other than Ground, so it might not work. He can't even use his decent 94 attack due to no STAB and best reliable move is Strength (Explosion kills him and Hyper Beam is probably not going to kill anything, plus low PP). Overall, he doesn't have much over Rhyperior other than not being weak to Water and Grass, which will still do a decent chunk due to his low 54 special, plus his 74 HP. Plus, Zapdos has his way with Ferrothorn, which is pretty bad. The best set he could probably run is Leech Seed / Thunder Wave / Explosion / Strength. You could probably stick Mimic over Leech Seed since Leech Seed isn't that good in Gen 1. Thunder Wave is his best asset, but things will probably still outspeed it because lolbase20.

[JSND]

Originally Posted by Fat keleyeemoh

So I guess Smeargle and Unown just get Struggle?

Unown is undiscusable
Smeargle gets anything

"If that pokemon can get that move, no matter what, then give it"

Something like that by TC

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat keleyeemoh

So I guess Smeargle and Unown just get Struggle?

I think we're just going with strictly gen 1 moves and not signature moves in order to not make things complicated (as I think Chou want to keep it as simple as possible). It's not like it matters that much, since Smeargle is horrible even with Sketch and most of the signature moves are outclassed by other moves.

[JSND]

Actualy consider that Smeargle has decent speed and both spore and para

In other words, a Sleep Lead, not like anyone might want to replace Exeguttor

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat JSND

Actualy consider that Smeargle has decent speed and both spore and para

In other words, a Sleep Lead, not like anyone might want to replace Exeguttor

Considering Jumpluff can do the same thing (although at lower accuracy) better and be more useful afterwards (although both are useless afterwards) makes Smeargle seem less useful. I guess it could be cool if you use something Wrap / Glare | Thunder Wave / Spore / filler, but 75 speed can only get you so far, and a wrap/glare miss could spell doom for Smeargle, not to mention his only opportunity to ParaWrap is after you sleep something, since he can't take any hit at all. You also need to consider how weak Wrap is going to be (probably like 1hp per turn on everything).

[JSND]

Yea thats the problem

I still pick Eggy, Psychich + Explosion is nothing to mess with

[Chou Toshio]

Wow, I'm pretty glad people have taken such a liking to this thread :D

Let's see...

I wonder how Latias would work:

HP: 80
ATK: 80
DEF: 90
SPC: 130
SPE: 110

-Psychic
-Surf / Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt / Thunder Wave
-Recover

Nothing too special with all the other psychic types in this thread, but it differentiates itself by having resistances to Water and Electric and having a great special move pool. Might have some use? It totally steps on Zapdos for instance.

[The Reptile]

^ I would definitely use Latias over Starmie due to the better resistances compared to Starmie due to the Dragon-typing having more resistances than Water-type. The weakness to Ice is barely noticeable once you realize most pokemon with Ice-type attacks carry Electric-type attacks unless they're bulky waters, which get hit hard by Thunderbolt. Also, could Latios potentially use a physical move like Body Slam or even Hyper Beam to hit other Psychics? It has decent 90 Attack, and some of the psychics have low Defense.

[Hemp Man]

Why not Blizzard instead of Ice Beam? It has 90% accuracy back then.

Ho-Oh
HP: 106
Atk: 130
Def: 90
SpC: 154
Spe: 90
~ Fire Blast
~ Earthquake
~ Thunderbolt
~ Recover

Damn

[Chou Toshio]

Lati@s doesn't get Blizzard... and Latios could definitely mix in a physical attack.

[chicobo329]

Linoone
HP: 78
Atk: 70
Def: 61
SpC: 50 (50 over 61
Spe: 100

Slash
Pin Missile
Thunder Wave
Surf / Headbutt

His stats are slightly inferior/superior (worse Special and Speed, better HP and Defense) to Persian's in almost every way but he carries just a couple of unique moves that Persian doesn't have: Thunder Wave and Pin Missile. By using Thunder Wave, you can Headbutt to do some paraflinch antics or in general slow down threats. Slash with your speed is still going to be Crit City but it won't be doing any more damage than Persian's since you have the same Attack stats.

Surf is stronger than Bubblebeam but Linoone's worse Special balances that out. It's still needed to get through Rhydon (and Rhyperior?) and Golem. Use Headbutt on paralyzed foes to minimize their chances to act. Pin Missile gives you some creative coverage against Grass and Poison (and Grass/Poison) types as well as some lesser Psychics.

He gets Super Fang, unlike Persian, but I don't know of its utility except on Pokemon with absurdly high Defense (mono-Ground Steelix?).

Aside from these small differences, you can run Linoone like you would Persian in every other way and generally share the same movesets he would use.

[The Reptile]

Metagross
Psychic
HP: 80
Atk: 135
Def: 130
SpC: 90
Spe: 75

Earthquake
Rock Slide
Psychic
Agility / Body Slam

Metagross is an oddity among Psychic-types. Unlike most of them, he's a Physical attacker, and has huge physical defense. His Special is mediocre but usable. This makes Metagross work differently from other Psychic-types, instead of abusing Psychic offensively, Metagross attempts to be a Psychic Counter due to his OK 90 Special and his amazing 135 attack hitting Psychic's on their lower defense, while also resisting Psychic. Metagross's biggest downfall is probably it's average speed and mediocre HP stat. Still, for a heavily defensive pokemon, Metagross is decently fast, and has Agility to patch up his speed. RockQuake gives great coverage and hits Psychics on the weaker defense, while Psychic is STAB and comes from his decent 90 Special. Agility is to patch up his speed and try to crit afterwards, as after an Agility Metagross is decently fast. Meanwhile, Body Slam has a nice 30% paralysis chance, allowing Metagross to be more of a team player. He also has access to BoltBeam in the form of Thunder/Ice Punch, but their 75 BP plus his 90 Special make them underwhelming unless they hit SE. His Defense really shines due to the lack of relative weaknesses.

[Carl]

Metagross is definitely a cool one.

I'd probably want Explosion in that move set. I doubt Rock Slide would do much for it. Treat it more like your standard RBY Snorlax and have Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Explosion/Earthquake as your main set.. Agility is interesting but might not be worth it.

[Wyrms Eye]

Infernape
Fire / Fighting
HP: 76
Atk: 104
Def: 71
SpC: 71
Spe: 108

Infernape fares poorly in the retrofit environment, because it essentially loses the use of the fire STAB in the mechanics with a lacklustre special stat, which puts the empathsis on the fighting type. It does have some interesting options though with which to use the respectable Attack and Speed stats, with Earthquake, Hyper Beam, Submission, Rock Slide among the most prominent offensive tools in its arsenal. It has Swords Dance as a boosting move, but possibly has to look for Fire Blast in terms of getting any respectable damage off the special side.

Volcarona
Fire / Bug
HP: 85
Atk: 60
Def: 65
SpC: 135
Spe: 100

Volcarona can still be considered a threat in these mechanics thanks even without the use of bug as a STAB thanks to the fact it gets the highly useful Amnesia. With this move, it can easily dish out hurt with STAB Flamethrowers or Fire Blasts, and also has Psychic and Mega Drain (as it receives Giga Drain via Tutor in BW2) to accompany it. It does have access to Fire Spin, and therefore could also try to abuse the flawed Wrap mechanics of RBY. Certainly still a big Special Sweeper in these conditions I feel.

Just a couple of other points, the highest BST under these mechanics is 600 (Kyurem-W and Arceus tie) and 43 pokemon have BST's at or over 500 (but that does consider cases like Registeel, who would not exist,so the number may be slightly less as a result). I think two other fearsome pokemon that should be looked into are Regigigas and Slaking, as they have ferociously high Attack stats (160 and 170 respectively) with good speed; as they would no longer be crippled by their Abilities. Hyper Beam would be a fearsome force with these guys, I'm sure.

[Hemp Man]

Rayquaza:
HP: 105
AtK: 150
Def: 90
SpC: 150
Spe: 95

~ Swords Dance
~ Rock Slide
~ Earthquake
~ Thunder Wave / Hyper Beam.

Now that is gonna hurt.

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat Carl

Metagross is definitely a cool one.

I'd probably want Explosion in that move set. I doubt Rock Slide would do much for it. Treat it more like your standard RBY Snorlax and have Body Slam/Hyper Beam/Explosion/Earthquake as your main set.. Agility is interesting but might not be worth it.

Lol, I somehow forgot about Explosion. Yeah, Explosion is much more useful than Rock Slide in general (although hitting Zapdos SE is pretty cool). I'd probably use a set of Body Slam / Explosion / Earthquake / Psychic, Psychic being for Rhyperior (I think it can take an EQ) and other physical walls (although Ice Punch might be more useful as it hits them SE and Ground / Ice has good coverage).

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Rayquaza:
HP: 105
AtK: 150
Def: 90
SpC: 150
Spe: 95

~ Swords Dance
~ Rock Slide
~ Earthquake
~ Thunder Wave / Hyper Beam.

Now that is gonna hurt.

For the last slot, I would personally use a special move such as Surf or Ice Beam / Blizzard, since it allows Rayquaza to decimate Rhyperior (where I think it can take at least 1 Earthquake and decimate you with Rock Slide) and possible hit physical walls harder. It's not like Surf / Ice Beam would be weak anyways, he has that huge 150 Special.

EDIT: Also, if we could somehow find a way to play this on a Simulator, that would be the coolest thing ever.

[Carl]

Yeah, good point about Rhyperior. Might want some sort of special based attack.. going with Ice Punch might be good in that, if you're lucky, you can score a freeze in those random situations where Rhyperior (or whatever) is switching out.