BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread - Page 45

alkinesthetase · Jul 25th, 2012, 1:51:16 AM

@masttershake: yeah, from what i see, psyshock's real appeal on latias right now is being able to beat pretty much any keldeo, since psyshock isn't slowed down by cm. ofc it's always been there as an option for winning cm wars, but keldeo seems to be the poster boy for that job right now. it's not like psychic has ever been a good coverage type so that's pretty much what it's limited to. like i said, i consider hp fire a waste of space on latias; if i'm gonna be attacking a lot why wasn't i running latios lol (i mean okay you could make the bulk vs power argument, but i'm of the opinion that you might as well go all the way. if you're gonna get aggressive, pick the mon whose stats suit the job)

oh and as for that refresh/substitute thing we were talking about a few posts ago, i don't personally run either, but refresh is nice for taking down other stall mons i guess, and it does that job better than substitute does. the problem is that it has even less early/midgame usefulness than substitute, since at the very least, sub lets you scout out your opponent's moves when you force a switch, and it lets you get away from any dangerous pursuits with a bit more insurance. refresh doesn't do anything unless you plan on sticking around for a while and you're afraid of getting statused along the way. i don't find latias gets all that many opportunities to "stick around for a while" until it's sweeping time. ofc this is my preference though; i run neither sub nor refresh cause i don't really like the way they affect my play of latias. those two moves just do different jobs from what i usually run, which atm is reflect.

i am reminded of shrang's recent uber warstory (okay, semi-recent) where it looked like his entire team was getting screwed over by full stall with tspikes down. he was getting phazed all over the place and basically all his mons were dying. surprise surprise, his last mon was refreshCM mono-attacking arceus-water (sorry if i spoiled it for you =P it was a pretty good warstory). that's a set that obviously is at its best when taking down full stall teams. once it was his last mon, he refreshed away the tspikes and went from like 1-4 to solidly cemented victory. it's on mons like arceus water where i see the advantage of refresh over substitute, and it also has a lot to do with the way the mon is played. shrang didn't bring the arceus out until literally no other mons on his team were left. he didn't even use it once. i suppose that was a wise decision since, against full stall, it was his best bet to win, and it would only be able to avoid phazing if it was his last mon. if he revealed the set his opponent would have realized how high priority of a threat it was and would have put much more effort into destroying it, rather than letting shrang sack his way into a phaze-proof cmer. in addition arceus doesn't have the issues with pursuits and uturns that latias does, so some of the key prediction utility of sub is less useful there than it is on latias. moreover, tspikes are a problem for arceus and they are not for latias (i'm not familiar with the ubers metagame, but i'd also imagine that tspikes in general are more viable there, because there are fewer good poison types to absorb the tspikes than there are in OU). i don't really wanna be saving my latias for the end though; i have other jobs it has to do on my team, so neither refresh nor sub are a fit for me.

as for trick room: i've never actually run a TR team, so forgive my ignorance =P but has anyone tried using tr the way tailwind used to be used on tornadus-I? rather than planning a team around using TR to sweep, use it by surprise to turn around the speed balance right when your opponent thinks they have it made, and potentially countersweep? i feel like TR, as a strategy to build a team around, has never quite been enough for OU, seeing as it only lasts 5 turns and you burn one of them on setting it up in the first place. but as a one-off disruptive tool to throw off the balance of offensive teams, i feel like there's some cool stuff you can do with it. i guess my comparison would work a little better if there was a viable prankster trickroomer lol. i haven't checked if there is such a mon.
EDIT: good catch stallion, i forgot about trick room's negative priority

FaceFaceFace · Jul 25th, 2012, 6:36:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Ames

I love TR in general and run it quite often - obviously Reuniclus is excellent at setting it up and going to town with it. While TR is an amazing counter to offensive teams, I am usually crushed by stall and other bulky threats.

The biggest problem with TR is that it is hard to find a spot for a regular set up sweeper/wallbreaker inbetween trying to keep TR up and so things like latias and especially Jirachi and Gliscor often end you. This is made worse by the fact that mons which set up TR often don't have time to use a boosting move and by the time you switch in something that can, a good player can stall you out if their team is not too frail.

Not going to stop me from trying though haha.

I hear you.
Being an avid TR Reuniclus lover myself, I have been spending the last few weeks trying to put together a Reuniclus based sand team.

I've come up with this concept recently which is working rather well - put together Hippowdon/Tyranitar to lead, as a Rocker, and a team of 3 'floaters' (levitate/flying) - of which 2 will have a Volt Turn combo; add a spiker, and Reuniclus.

The idea is that your spiker and Rocker aside, the whole team is immune to spikes, negating the need for a spinner. The tricky bit is setting up your hazards - once you do, it's pretty much game over.

Currently, I'm experimenting with a Volt+Turn+Baton Pass 'floater' core consisting of:

Rotom+ Landorus force a shit tonne of switches - so the opponent can choose -1. switch out and take massive hazard damage on the switch in, 2. get KOed by a super effective move, OR 3. switch out, take massive hazard damage, eat a volt/turn, and start guessing again.
Gliscor can toxic stall/ragequit opponent, or pass a sub to whoever that needs it.
I also tried running a bulky

instead of Gliscor as a pseudo spinblocker - switch in on the spinner, sub up, DD or 2 away, and sweep.
Rotom taking neutral and Gyara taking lots from SR hurts a bit, but the tradeoff is well worth it -when the opportunity strikes, get Reuniclus in and start your TR sweep.

The beauty with this concept is that you can afford to trade spikes with a stall based team and beat them at their game - and for an offense based team, TR Reuniclus becomes a massive threat.
It's a team that no doubt needs work, but I find it to be a pretty good concept to base a TR Reuniclus around, because once that thing starts going, it's pretty damn hard to stop it. Especially if you've got all your hazards down.

Stallion · Jul 25th, 2012, 9:31:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

@masttershake: yeah, from what i see, psyshock's real appeal on latias right now is being able to beat pretty much any keldeo, since psyshock isn't slowed down by cm. ofc it's always been there as an option for winning cm wars, but keldeo seems to be the poster boy for that job right now. it's not like psychic has ever been a good coverage type so that's pretty much what it's limited to. like i said, i consider hp fire a waste of space on latias; if i'm gonna be attacking a lot why wasn't i running latios lol (i mean okay you could make the bulk vs power argument, but i'm of the opinion that you might as well go all the way. if you're gonna get aggressive, pick the mon whose stats suit the job)

oh and as for that refresh/substitute thing we were talking about a few posts ago, i don't personally run either, but refresh is nice for taking down other stall mons i guess, and it does that job better than substitute does. the problem is that it has even less early/midgame usefulness than substitute, since at the very least, sub lets you scout out your opponent's moves when you force a switch, and it lets you get away from any dangerous pursuits with a bit more insurance. refresh doesn't do anything unless you plan on sticking around for a while and you're afraid of getting statused along the way. i don't find latias gets all that many opportunities to "stick around for a while" until it's sweeping time. ofc this is my preference though; i run neither sub nor refresh cause i don't really like the way they affect my play of latias. those two moves just do different jobs from what i usually run, which atm is reflect.

i am reminded of shrang's recent uber warstory (okay, semi-recent) where it looked like his entire team was getting screwed over by full stall with tspikes down. he was getting phazed all over the place and basically all his mons were dying. surprise surprise, his last mon was refreshCM mono-attacking arceus-water (sorry if i spoiled it for you =P it was a pretty good warstory). that's a set that obviously is at its best when taking down full stall teams. once it was his last mon, he refreshed away the tspikes and went from like 1-4 to solidly cemented victory. it's on mons like arceus water where i see the advantage of refresh over substitute, and it also has a lot to do with the way the mon is played. shrang didn't bring the arceus out until literally no other mons on his team were left. he didn't even use it once. i suppose that was a wise decision since, against full stall, it was his best bet to win, and it would only be able to avoid phazing if it was his last mon. if he revealed the set his opponent would have realized how high priority of a threat it was and would have put much more effort into destroying it, rather than letting shrang sack his way into a phaze-proof cmer. in addition arceus doesn't have the issues with pursuits and uturns that latias does, so some of the key prediction utility of sub is less useful there than it is on latias. moreover, tspikes are a problem for arceus and they are not for latias (i'm not familiar with the ubers metagame, but i'd also imagine that tspikes in general are more viable there, because there are fewer good poison types to absorb the tspikes than there are in OU). i don't really wanna be saving my latias for the end though; i have other jobs it has to do on my team, so neither refresh nor sub are a fit for me.

as for trick room: i've never actually run a TR team, so forgive my ignorance =P but has anyone tried using tr the way tailwind used to be used on tornadus-I? rather than planning a team around using TR to sweep, use it by surprise to turn around the speed balance right when your opponent thinks they have it made, and potentially countersweep? i feel like TR, as a strategy to build a team around, has never quite been enough for OU, seeing as it only lasts 5 turns and you burn one of them on setting it up in the first place. but as a one-off disruptive tool to throw off the balance of offensive teams, i feel like there's some cool stuff you can do with it. i guess my comparison would work a little better if there was a viable prankster trickroomer lol. i haven't checked if there is such a mon.

Prankster only ups priority by + 1 and seeing as Trick Room is like -6 or something really low, it won't make a difference. Having said that, I know what you mean by using Trick Room as a "save my ass" measure. I played McMeghan for fun in a BO3 adv/dpp/bw series and he won DPP with a Trick Room Bronzong, despite the fact that nothing else on his team really benefited from it. I think it's a cool move to save you from being crushed by fast set up sweepers as opposed to a move to build a team around. Tailwind is better of course but Trick Room on a bulky/balanced team could be pretty awesome.

Buttobi · Jul 27th, 2012, 1:03:45 PM

I've been testing a hail team lately and it works really well. My team consists of: Abomasnow, Kyurem, Starmie, Mamoswine, Magnezone and salamence. I'm ofcourse not gonna explain the specific movesets but this team can crush any weather team. And actually I have 2 hail inducers in this team. I also gave Starmie the move hail so I have more weather control. About Mamoswine, he doesn't rely on the hail since I'm running an endeavor set on him. Magnezone counters those stupid steel types like ferrothorn and jirachi. Scizor can just U-turn away so I added Salamence to my team. His fire blast can OHKO most scizor. And if the rain is up, you can just use Starmie or Abomasnow to change it to hail. So with some good prediction you can easily take out thos pesky scizor.

Joeyboy · Jul 29th, 2012, 2:51:10 PM

So anyone else seeing Latios everywhere; his LO set in particular I've been having a hard time defeating it with most of my newer teams. Surf wrecks Ttar, Hp Fire roasts steels and Dragon Stab demolishes everything else. Hell even Blissey and Chansey(Chansey less so) don't like taking Psyshocks. Anyone else been having trouble with the Eon Pokemon?

Electrolyte · Jul 29th, 2012, 3:23:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

So anyone else seeing Latios everywhere; his LO set in particular I've been having a hard time defeating it with most of my newer teams. Surf wrecks Ttar, Hp Fire roasts steels and Dragon Stab demolishes everything else. Hell even Blissey and Chansey(Chansey less so) don't like taking Psyshocks. Anyone else been having trouble with the Eon Pokemon?

I'm quite sure this kind of question belongs in the Simple Question thread, but whatever. Tyranitar is a hard counter for Latios. That's about the best you can do.

Back to the Trick Room discussion, I've found TR to be a great backup strategy for Stall. I successfully turned a match around with Trick Room Slowbro. Offensive teams certainly can't hanlde being outsped, as pokemon like Tornadus-T or Jolteon are frail as heck and can't take hits from slow yet powerful pokemon. Defensive teams can't handle it either, as suddenly their Taunters are being outsped and they are being set up on.

Ricky Horror · Jul 29th, 2012, 4:05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

I'm quite sure this kind of question belongs in the Simple Question thread, but whatever. Tyranitar is a hard counter for Latios. That's about the best you can do.

Back to the Trick Room discussion, I've found TR to be a great backup strategy for Stall. I successfully turned a match around with Trick Room Slowbro. Offensive teams certainly can't hanlde being outsped, as pokemon like Tornadus-T or Jolteon are frail as heck and can't take hits from slow yet powerful pokemon. Defensive teams can't handle it either, as suddenly their Taunters are being outsped and they are being set up on.

lol that is a legit statement/question for Bw2 discussion.

Buttobi · Jul 29th, 2012, 4:33:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

So anyone else seeing Latios everywhere; his LO set in particular I've been having a hard time defeating it with most of my newer teams. Surf wrecks Ttar, Hp Fire roasts steels and Dragon Stab demolishes everything else. Hell even Blissey and Chansey(Chansey less so) don't like taking Psyshocks. Anyone else been having trouble with the Eon Pokemon?

Sash Mamoswine crushes latios. It can use 2 ice shards to take it out or one endeavor and one ice shard to KO it. And your remaining HP is really useful to cripple any pokemon with endeavor.

alkinesthetase · Jul 29th, 2012, 4:36:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

So anyone else seeing Latios everywhere; his LO set in particular I've been having a hard time defeating it with most of my newer teams. Surf wrecks Ttar, Hp Fire roasts steels and Dragon Stab demolishes everything else. Hell even Blissey and Chansey(Chansey less so) don't like taking Psyshocks. Anyone else been having trouble with the Eon Pokemon?

loaded out properly, latios has always hit like a truck; that's why it's useful. tyranitar is the closest you'll get to a counter if it's spdef enough to take a few meteors (iirc it is possible since you have sand boost), but when you get to the power class of a specs latios, it's more about checking than it is about countering. in fact, against a lot of modern threats, it's more about checking than it is about countering.

scarf/bandtar might not necessarily be bulky enough to switch in (vs specs, the second draco meteor will finish you off if you're not significantly invested in special bulk) but their pursuits will implode latios, and ofc you also have a variety of scarfers carrying ice-type attacks. scarf terrak's x-scissor also really really hurts (i've spent a long time trying to EV latias to take on terrakion, trust me).

Danger Mouse · Jul 29th, 2012, 4:39:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

loaded out properly, latios has always hit like a truck; that's why it's useful. tyranitar is the closest you'll get to a counter if it's spdef enough to take a few meteors (iirc it is possible since you have sand boost), but when you get to the power class of a specs latios, it's more about checking than it is about countering. in fact, against a lot of modern threats, it's more about checking than it is about countering.

scarf/bandtar might not necessarily be bulky enough to switch in (vs specs, the second draco meteor will finish you off if you're not significantly invested in special bulk) but their pursuits will implode latios, and ofc you also have a variety of scarfers carrying ice-type attacks. scarf terrak's x-scissor also really really hurts (i've spent a long time trying to EV latias to take on terrakion, trust me).

If I have a Tyranitar and I'm facing a Latios, I'll typically sack something I don't really need in that battle so I can get TTar in. That way Latios is screwed no matter what...

Marzbar · Jul 30th, 2012, 9:29:21 AM

I have had a lot of fun using Lickilicky in OU. His Cloud Nine ability is a huge problem for Weather teams. A bulky Lickilicky can switch into most attacks, and proceed to Toxic their weather user (Ninetails, Politoed, Hippodown, TTar). Then you can drive them crazy with Knock Off to remove key items, Body Slam to spread paralysis, Disable to remove their only move than can damage Lickilicky, or phaze them with Dragon Tail. Lickilicky also has a huge movepool for coverage, including Earthquake and Boltbeam.

Has anyone used Lickilicky or another Cloud Nine Pokemon? I've found people rage quit as soon as I send him out and cripple their weather user.

Danger Mouse · Jul 30th, 2012, 5:29:02 PM

This might sound weird, but I've been using toxicroak as part of a weatherless team. He's got a nice set of resists - fighting, bug, poison, dark, grass and rock - and he can absorb toxic spikes for your team. I run the swords dance set, and it's not particularly hard to find set-up opportunities, and once he's gotten a boost or two, he's very hard to stop thanks to sucker punch (if croak is boosted it's usually pretty easy to predict when to attack and when to flee - and when sucker punch won't be enough).
I really think croak should see more usage, he really is fantastic.

probationsmack · Jul 31st, 2012, 12:12:33 AM

Yeah toxicroak can be pretty anti meta when played right, although I find you have to give up sub to get the best coverage with suckerpunch/icepunch/drainpunch. Unfortuneatly, this leaves him susceptible to status. Going with sub just means you get walled against a well balanced team. Still, he's a cool pokemon that has finally found his niche in OU.

edit: totally going off the subject here, max defense/hp slowbro with regenerator and a rocky helmet is a fantastic all around physical wall that can effectively punish things like closecombat, non scizor uturns, premature outraging, and other various common contact moves. I only thought of him because he's one of those things that laughs at a +2 croak suckerpunch and then psyshocks him to oblivion; only to switch out scot free.

Ames · Jul 31st, 2012, 12:35:41 AM

By 'laughs at' what do you mean? How much damage is a defensive Slowbro actually taking from a +2 sucker punch?

Alice · Jul 31st, 2012, 12:48:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat FaceFaceFace

I also tried running a bulky

instead of Gliscor as a pseudo spinblocker - switch in on the spinner, sub up, DD or 2 away, and sweep.
Rotom taking neutral and Gyara taking lots from SR hurts a bit, but the tradeoff is well worth it -when the opportunity strikes, get Reuniclus in and start your TR sweep.

How is exactly gyarados setting up on Starmie, the most common spinner?, most of them, if not all of them, carry t-bolt OR scald...

Tentacruel also threatens scald

Forretress' volt switch 2hkoes (with SR and sand damage your gyara is left at 18% more or less, so it's an easy target for any priority user...)

Withour a REAL spinblocker, you're not getting past stall anytime soon...

Shining Latios · Jul 31st, 2012, 12:53:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

So anyone else seeing Latios everywhere; his LO set in particular I've been having a hard time defeating it with most of my newer teams. Surf wrecks Ttar, Hp Fire roasts steels and Dragon Stab demolishes everything else. Hell even Blissey and Chansey(Chansey less so) don't like taking Psyshocks. Anyone else been having trouble with the Eon Pokemon?

Run some Special Defense EVs on Tyranitar if you are having trouble or just add a Special Defense Jirachi on your team, it stops Latios's attacks cold.

EonX- · Jul 31st, 2012, 12:39:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat probationsmack

edit: totally going off the subject here, max defense/hp slowbro with regenerator and a rocky helmet is a fantastic all around physical wall that can effectively punish things like closecombat, non scizor uturns, premature outraging, and other various common contact moves. I only thought of him because he's one of those things that laughs at a +2 croak suckerpunch and then psyshocks him to oblivion; only to switch out scot free.

Sure, Slowbro can live a +2 Sucker Punch, but I wouldn't call 74% - 83% damage "laughing at a +2 Sucker Punch". Even with Regenerator, you'll be coming back in at only around 50% the next time, and if the opponent has a Pursuit user (like Scizor for example, who's pretty good in rain) then Slowbro is done. So, yes, Slowbro can take a +2 Sucker Punch from Croak and kill it off with Psyshock, but Slowbro certainly won't be "laughing" at it either.

probationsmack · Jul 31st, 2012, 4:12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat EonX-

Sure, Slowbro can live a +2 Sucker Punch, but I wouldn't call 74% - 83% damage "laughing at a +2 Sucker Punch". Even with Regenerator, you'll be coming back in at only around 50% the next time, and if the opponent has a Pursuit user (like Scizor for example, who's pretty good in rain) then Slowbro is done. So, yes, Slowbro can take a +2 Sucker Punch from Croak and kill it off with Psyshock, but Slowbro certainly won't be "laughing" at it either.

What are we talking about here? An adamant lifeorb toxicroak? Because that gets outsped by so many eq users its a marginal concern. And really the situation you describe would only occur under a bad double switch, because if i call in slowbro again you can be sure ill be switching him out asap.

Ricky Horror · Jul 31st, 2012, 9:58:52 PM

In a metagame infested with Rain, I haven't seen any use Toxicroak. Tornadus-T is probably to blame. lol Not sure what is Rain's main sweeper at the given time. Keldeo wasnt as a success as expected. Usage stats will be much appreciated. ^^

Marzbar · Aug 1st, 2012, 1:13:50 AM

I've seen quite a lot of Dry Skin Toxicroaks actually. Usually with Substitute / Focus Punch.

My Crobat loves them.

Shining Latios · Aug 1st, 2012, 3:59:12 AM

In my opinion, I think Gastrodon should definitely be used more with all the Rain teams running around. Storm Drain helps so much and it basically walls Thundurus-T. Also, Jirachi is a great Pokemon at this time with Tornadus-T destroying with Hurricane.

Antihaxxer · Aug 1st, 2012, 4:10:44 AM

I run Grass Knot on Thundurus to mess up with Gastrodon, U-Turn, Thunder, Hp Ice, Grass Knot, is all he needs

Kiyo · Aug 1st, 2012, 4:17:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shining Latios

In my opinion, I think Gastrodon should definitely be used more with all the Rain teams running around. Storm Drain helps so much and it basically walls Thundurus-T. Also, Jirachi is a great Pokemon at this time with Tornadus-T destroying with Hurricane.

I agree that Gastrodon should be going up in usage, but at the same time I felt like I saw it all the time 2 weeks ago and I saw a lot of Thundurus-Ts with grass knot. Also gastrodon cant take a hit from Tornadus-T too well, which I feel definitely has an impact on his presence in OU.
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Gastrodon (+SpDef) : 43.66% - 51.41% (3 hits to KO)

With Rocks or A layer of spikes, Gastrodon is very scared of OUs new biggest threat.

Shining Latios · Aug 1st, 2012, 4:31:56 AM

Yeah, Gastrodon would definitely benefit from a spinner. As well as hazards to wear down Thundurus-T. The biggest problem with Tornadus-T is access to Regenerator. Whenever it's walled, it can just U-turn out and when it comes back, 1/3 of its HP is healed.

~~superbadd~~ · Aug 1st, 2012, 5:01:01 AM

What's the best way to breakdown the heatran, slowbro, and amoongus core? I've been using a lot with great success and nothing seems to break it.

Jul 25th, 2012, 1:51:16 AM	#1101
alkinesthetase <MrE> SPIDERS /\/\;,,;/\/\ Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 696 <ala> canadabros is the strongest bros you can be Mentor	@masttershake: yeah, from what i see, psyshock's real appeal on latias right now is being able to beat pretty much any keldeo, since psyshock isn't slowed down by cm. ofc it's always been there as an option for winning cm wars, but keldeo seems to be the poster boy for that job right now. it's not like psychic has ever been a good coverage type so that's pretty much what it's limited to. like i said, i consider hp fire a waste of space on latias; if i'm gonna be attacking a lot why wasn't i running latios lol (i mean okay you could make the bulk vs power argument, but i'm of the opinion that you might as well go all the way. if you're gonna get aggressive, pick the mon whose stats suit the job) oh and as for that refresh/substitute thing we were talking about a few posts ago, i don't personally run either, but refresh is nice for taking down other stall mons i guess, and it does that job better than substitute does. the problem is that it has even less early/midgame usefulness than substitute, since at the very least, sub lets you scout out your opponent's moves when you force a switch, and it lets you get away from any dangerous pursuits with a bit more insurance. refresh doesn't do anything unless you plan on sticking around for a while and you're afraid of getting statused along the way. i don't find latias gets all that many opportunities to "stick around for a while" until it's sweeping time. ofc this is my preference though; i run neither sub nor refresh cause i don't really like the way they affect my play of latias. those two moves just do different jobs from what i usually run, which atm is reflect. i am reminded of shrang's recent uber warstory (okay, semi-recent) where it looked like his entire team was getting screwed over by full stall with tspikes down. he was getting phazed all over the place and basically all his mons were dying. surprise surprise, his last mon was refreshCM mono-attacking arceus-water (sorry if i spoiled it for you =P it was a pretty good warstory). that's a set that obviously is at its best when taking down full stall teams. once it was his last mon, he refreshed away the tspikes and went from like 1-4 to solidly cemented victory. it's on mons like arceus water where i see the advantage of refresh over substitute, and it also has a lot to do with the way the mon is played. shrang didn't bring the arceus out until literally no other mons on his team were left. he didn't even use it once. i suppose that was a wise decision since, against full stall, it was his best bet to win, and it would only be able to avoid phazing if it was his last mon. if he revealed the set his opponent would have realized how high priority of a threat it was and would have put much more effort into destroying it, rather than letting shrang sack his way into a phaze-proof cmer. in addition arceus doesn't have the issues with pursuits and uturns that latias does, so some of the key prediction utility of sub is less useful there than it is on latias. moreover, tspikes are a problem for arceus and they are not for latias (i'm not familiar with the ubers metagame, but i'd also imagine that tspikes in general are more viable there, because there are fewer good poison types to absorb the tspikes than there are in OU). i don't really wanna be saving my latias for the end though; i have other jobs it has to do on my team, so neither refresh nor sub are a fit for me. as for trick room: i've never actually run a TR team, so forgive my ignorance =P but has anyone tried using tr the way tailwind used to be used on tornadus-I? rather than planning a team around using TR to sweep, use it by surprise to turn around the speed balance right when your opponent thinks they have it made, and potentially countersweep? i feel like TR, as a strategy to build a team around, has never quite been enough for OU, seeing as it only lasts 5 turns and you burn one of them on setting it up in the first place. but as a one-off disruptive tool to throw off the balance of offensive teams, i feel like there's some cool stuff you can do with it. i guess my comparison would work a little better if there was a viable prankster trickroomer lol. i haven't checked if there is such a mon. EDIT: good catch stallion, i forgot about trick room's negative priority __________________ <%yee> i will summon a spider to kill alkines my massive mafia roles list Last edited by alkinesthetase; Jul 25th, 2012 at 10:16:26 AM.

Jul 29th, 2012, 2:51:10 PM	#1105
Joeyboy Whose name was Kent Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,225 Art by Bummer Mentor	So anyone else seeing Latios everywhere; his LO set in particular I've been having a hard time defeating it with most of my newer teams. Surf wrecks Ttar, Hp Fire roasts steels and Dragon Stab demolishes everything else. Hell even Blissey and Chansey(Chansey less so) don't like taking Psyshocks. Anyone else been having trouble with the Eon Pokemon? __________________ VM for an OU Rate \| Latest OU Mini-Tour \| Smog Work

Jul 30th, 2012, 5:29:02 PM	#1112
Danger Mouse Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 261 New York	This might sound weird, but I've been using toxicroak as part of a weatherless team. He's got a nice set of resists - fighting, bug, poison, dark, grass and rock - and he can absorb toxic spikes for your team. I run the swords dance set, and it's not particularly hard to find set-up opportunities, and once he's gotten a boost or two, he's very hard to stop thanks to sucker punch (if croak is boosted it's usually pretty easy to predict when to attack and when to flee - and when sucker punch won't be enough). I really think croak should see more usage, he really is fantastic. __________________ How strange it is to be anything at all... http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3471821 Rate My Team - OU Heavy Offense - Keldeo deserves more respect!

Jul 31st, 2012, 9:58:52 PM	#1119
Ricky Horror Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 253 Smogon Place of Tyrant Mods..	In a metagame infested with Rain, I haven't seen any use Toxicroak. Tornadus-T is probably to blame. lol Not sure what is Rain's main sweeper at the given time. Keldeo wasnt as a success as expected. Usage stats will be much appreciated. ^^ __________________ Don't look back it'll cease your future.

Jul 27th, 2012, 1:03:45 PM	#1104
Buttobi Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 18 there	I've been testing a hail team lately and it works really well. My team consists of: Abomasnow, Kyurem, Starmie, Mamoswine, Magnezone and salamence. I'm ofcourse not gonna explain the specific movesets but this team can crush any weather team. And actually I have 2 hail inducers in this team. I also gave Starmie the move hail so I have more weather control. About Mamoswine, he doesn't rely on the hail since I'm running an endeavor set on him. Magnezone counters those stupid steel types like ferrothorn and jirachi. Scizor can just U-turn away so I added Salamence to my team. His fire blast can OHKO most scizor. And if the rain is up, you can just use Starmie or Abomasnow to change it to hail. So with some good prediction you can easily take out thos pesky scizor.

Jul 30th, 2012, 9:29:21 AM	#1111
Marzbar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 130 Perth, Australia	I have had a lot of fun using Lickilicky in OU. His Cloud Nine ability is a huge problem for Weather teams. A bulky Lickilicky can switch into most attacks, and proceed to Toxic their weather user (Ninetails, Politoed, Hippodown, TTar). Then you can drive them crazy with Knock Off to remove key items, Body Slam to spread paralysis, Disable to remove their only move than can damage Lickilicky, or phaze them with Dragon Tail. Lickilicky also has a huge movepool for coverage, including Earthquake and Boltbeam. Has anyone used Lickilicky or another Cloud Nine Pokemon? I've found people rage quit as soon as I send him out and cripple their weather user.

Jul 31st, 2012, 12:12:33 AM	#1113
probationsmack Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 69	Yeah toxicroak can be pretty anti meta when played right, although I find you have to give up sub to get the best coverage with suckerpunch/icepunch/drainpunch. Unfortuneatly, this leaves him susceptible to status. Going with sub just means you get walled against a well balanced team. Still, he's a cool pokemon that has finally found his niche in OU. edit: totally going off the subject here, max defense/hp slowbro with regenerator and a rocky helmet is a fantastic all around physical wall that can effectively punish things like closecombat, non scizor uturns, premature outraging, and other various common contact moves. I only thought of him because he's one of those things that laughs at a +2 croak suckerpunch and then psyshocks him to oblivion; only to switch out scot free.

Jul 31st, 2012, 12:35:41 AM	#1114
Ames Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 185 Meteor MASH!	By 'laughs at' what do you mean? How much damage is a defensive Slowbro actually taking from a +2 sucker punch?

Aug 1st, 2012, 1:13:50 AM	#1120
Marzbar Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 130 Perth, Australia	I've seen quite a lot of Dry Skin Toxicroaks actually. Usually with Substitute / Focus Punch. My Crobat loves them.

Aug 1st, 2012, 3:59:12 AM	#1121
Shining Latios Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,311	In my opinion, I think Gastrodon should definitely be used more with all the Rain teams running around. Storm Drain helps so much and it basically walls Thundurus-T. Also, Jirachi is a great Pokemon at this time with Tornadus-T destroying with Hurricane.

Aug 1st, 2012, 4:10:44 AM	#1122
Antihaxxer Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 336	I run Grass Knot on Thundurus to mess up with Gastrodon, U-Turn, Thunder, Hp Ice, Grass Knot, is all he needs

Aug 1st, 2012, 4:31:56 AM	#1124
Shining Latios Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,311	Yeah, Gastrodon would definitely benefit from a spinner. As well as hazards to wear down Thundurus-T. The biggest problem with Tornadus-T is access to Regenerator. Whenever it's walled, it can just U-turn out and when it comes back, 1/3 of its HP is healed.

Aug 1st, 2012, 5:01:01 AM	#1125
~~superbadd~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 357	What's the best way to breakdown the heatran, slowbro, and amoongus core? I've been using a lot with great success and nothing seems to break it.