BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[CloudBreaker]

Gastrodon is still a very good 'mon against rain teams, obviously, but as Kiyo said, it's pretty weak to several BW2 new toys such Breloom, Tornadus-T (with hazards support), Thundurus-T with GK and even Keldeo, though the latter is not as played as expected. It is still very good to check some dangerous rain threats, but even rain offensive teams henceforth have some good weapons to destroy it, so I guess it's logical that it is not as used as it was in BW1.

[Ricky Horror]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

What's the best way to breakdown the heatran, slowbro, and amoongus core? I've been using a lot with great success and nothing seems to break it.

I've seen Tornadus-T handle it quiet well. It can Hurricane Slowbro, Superpower Heatran, and Hurricane Amoonguss. U-Turn as pleases to counter the Pokemon at hand.

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

What's the best way to breakdown the heatran, slowbro, and amoongus core? I've been using a lot with great success and nothing seems to break it.

Hydreigon can easily handle all three with the right coverage moves. Earth power for tran, dark pulse for bro, meteor or fire blast for amoongus. It can also run taunt or sub to block spore.

[Wolvren]

Originally Posted by Fat Danger Mouse

Hydreigon can easily handle all three with the right coverage moves. Earth power for tran, dark pulse for bro, meteor or fire blast for amoongus. It can also run taunt or sub to block spore.

But if Hydreigon was Paralyzed it will be horrible against Slowbro ...

[Danger Mouse]

Most pokes are gimped if they're paralyzed.

[Wolvren]

So , Hydreigon can't counter it

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat Wolvren

So , Hydreigon can't counter it

Hydreigon can taunt it or use sub.

[Shouting]

If Slowbro is using Thunder Wave, it is generally not carrying Ice Beam because it has no room, so Slowbro really can't do anything to Hydregion whether it is paralyzed or not.

[Machina]

Is there a definite Tornadus-T counter or check for all of its offensive sets? It seems pretty hard to find one due to its sheer coverage. Gastrodon somewhat falls in that category, but Life Orbed Hurricane does a ton to it.

[Wolvren]

It might have been paralyzed by another pokemon ,

[Shouting]

Originally Posted by Fat Wolvren

It might have been paralyzed by another pokemon ,

Amoongus really prefers Clear Smog over Stun Spore, and even if it does carry it taunt is going to prevent it. Heatran has no paralyzing moves.

Originally Posted by Fat Machina

Is there a definite Tornadus-T counter or check for all of its offensive sets? It seems pretty hard to find one due to its sheer coverage. Gastrodon somewhat falls in that category, but Life Orbed Hurricane does a ton to it.

Jirachi is probably the closest thing to a counter there is, it takes little from hurricane and focus blast/superpower. It can U-turn out though. That's why you need to keep it healthy through Wish, because if you just get hit by U-turn coming in over and over again without healing, you're going to lose.

Jolteon can naturally outspeed it, but it cannot switch in, the same with many scarfers. Poiltoed is good, but you have to use Timid if you want to outspeed. Bronzong and Metagross work similar to Jirachi (Metagross even has pursuit!) but they do not have recovery. You can always get rid of the weather with tyranitar, and he is a decent check as long as you avoid a Superpower or Focus Blast.

[DrDLO]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

What's the best way to breakdown the heatran, slowbro, and amoongus core? I've been using a lot with great success and nothing seems to break it.

magic bounce espy is also pretty solid. the normal timid 252 spA/252spe variant can set up on slobro and amoongus pretty easily (unless it get's scalded). for heatran it may need a boost to start hp fighting it but also does pretty well unless it gets burned by lava plume...also a mixed venusaur (eq, hp fire, giga drain) can also handle that core pretty well, particularly in the sun.
Gengar running sludge bomb, shadow ball, focus blast (sub if you wanna avoid status)...offensive starmie...

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat Wolvren

It might have been paralyzed by another pokemon ,

So what? By your definition, it has to be able to beat slowbro if paralyzed before switching in, or it's not a counter? Isn't that being oddly specific? When talking about whether or not a Pokemon checks or counters another, you dot assume that the pokemon switching in has already been statuses - that doesn't even make sense.

[alkinesthetase]

Originally Posted by Fat Wolvren

It might have been paralyzed by another pokemon ,

or maybe my opponent's breloom mach punched my precious hydreigon and it's dead, oh noes i can't counter amoongbrotran anymore. clearly guys, hydreigon can't counter any core, because if it got mach punched or paralyzed, then gg core is invincible. obviously it doesn't matter that breloom wasn't in the core to begin with, because WHAT IF IT WAS

more seriously, how does this claim have anything to do with hydreigon being able to counter the core? most attackers suck once paralyzed; you need speed to be an effective attacker (with exceptions). does that mean that any core packing paralysis is uncounterable? a fourth mon packing paralysis might have paralyzed hydreigon but so what? that's not part of the core in question and is irrelevant to the discussion. in addition, unless it was body slam, chances are hydreigon could have taunted this mysterious fourth mon as well (there aren't many mons that use thunder wave AND invest significantly in speed), but now we're getting into a pointless rock paper scissors argument.

[Milos]

Originally Posted by Fat Machina

Is there a definite Tornadus-T counter or check for all of its offensive sets? It seems pretty hard to find one due to its sheer coverage. Gastrodon somewhat falls in that category, but Life Orbed Hurricane does a ton to it.

Specially defensive tyranitar can counter the specs set pretty well, provided he doesnt switch in to a focus blast. Sandstorm puts hurricane back at 70% acc and tyranitar´s rock typing naturally lets it absorb tornadus´s STAB attacks. Tyranitar can then threaten tornadus with stone edge or even pursuit. LO sets, however, are a different story...

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat Milos

Specially defensive tyranitar can counter the specs set pretty well, provided he doesnt switch in to a focus blast. Sandstorm puts hurricane back at 70% acc and tyranitar´s rock typing naturally lets it absorb tornadus´s STAB attacks. Tyranitar can then threaten tornadus with stone edge or even pursuit. LO sets, however, are a different story...

I run life orb tornadus t with superpower specificallly for ttar and the pink blobs

[EonX-]

Originally Posted by Fat Milos

Specially defensive tyranitar can counter the specs set pretty well, provided he doesnt switch in to a focus blast. Sandstorm puts hurricane back at 70% acc and tyranitar´s rock typing naturally lets it absorb tornadus´s STAB attacks. Tyranitar can then threaten tornadus with stone edge or even pursuit. LO sets, however, are a different story...

The main issues with this are A.) Life Orb sets tend to be more common since Superpower destroys Ttar, pink blobs, and more reliably takes out Heatran and B.) the Specs set can just keep spamming U-Turn, (why wouldn't you when you have Regenerator and a switch-in you can see from a mile away) anticipating the Ttar switch-in every time, thus eventually wearing Ttar down or outright KOing it with Focus Blast, even through Chople Berry at a point.

[DrDLO]

what impact would shadow tag chandelure have on the meta when it's released? I know trapping is good obviously, but it's defenses are not very high. It's not gonna come in on a, say, choice-locked flare blitz darmanitan or at the end of a haxorus/dragonite outrage to take another one...Even with all the rain going around (it has died down a little), is it's impact going to be limited to a niche trapper like magnezone (yea i know it traps more than steels, but it can only take light/resisted hits). Maybe a good spin-blocker/killer of starmie?

edit: ok maybe breloom too but in the rain....?

[EspeonX]

Originally Posted by Fat DrDLO

what impact would shadow tag chandelure have on the meta when it's released? I know trapping is good obviously, but it's defenses are not very high. It's not gonna come in on a, say, choice-locked flare blitz darmanitan or at the end of a haxorus/dragonite outrage to take another one...Even with all the rain going around (it has died down a little), is it's impact going to be limited to a niche trapper like magnezone (yea i know it traps more than steels, but it can only take light/resisted hits). Maybe a good spin-blocker/killer of starmie?

edit: ok maybe breloom too but in the rain....?

Many are saying it'll go Uber, as it does decently in DW Ubers, particularly with Truant Entrainment Durant. I don't know. It's better than Magnezone in some regards, but we'll have to wait and see.

[UltiMario]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

No such thing as a Thundurus-T counter, but checks come in the form of faster attackers (The Latis, Fighting trio) or priority (Mamoswine). Circumstance is important too. It's much easier to check an Agility Thundurus-T early game where everything is healthy as opposed to lategame. Don't give that Pokemon an inch or it will destroy you.

I would advise you to brush up on your reading skills, PK.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Machina

Is there a definite Tornadus-T counter or check for all of its offensive sets? It seems pretty hard to find one due to its sheer coverage. Gastrodon somewhat falls in that category, but Life Orbed Hurricane does a ton to it.

A specially defensive Jirachi is your best bet. It's a hard counter in most scenarios. It's either that or run priority and scarfed Pokemon in general. (It's pretty hard to get a handle T-T without changing the weather tbh.) The ideal anti-Tornadus-T team is probably a sand team w/ Jirachi.

[Xelacalle]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

What's the best way to breakdown the heatran, slowbro, and amoongus core? I've been using a lot with great success and nothing seems to break it.

I've come across this core before, and my mixed Meloetta managed to break it. (Which was surprising, because Meloetta normally doesn't do much.)

edit: As long as something has taken the Spore.

...

---

Mix (Meloetta) @ Life Orb
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SAtk / 56 Atk / 200 Spd
Naive Nature
- Relic Song
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Psychic
- Close Combat
- Thunderbolt

Close Combat hits Heatran, Psychic/HP Ice Amoongus and Thunderbolt Slowbro.

Meloetta also has the element of surprise, for now. Most people don't really seem to know what it's going to do until it does it.

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat DrDLO

what impact would shadow tag chandelure have on the meta when it's released? I know trapping is good obviously, but it's defenses are not very high. It's not gonna come in on a, say, choice-locked flare blitz darmanitan or at the end of a haxorus/dragonite outrage to take another one...Even with all the rain going around (it has died down a little), is it's impact going to be limited to a niche trapper like magnezone (yea i know it traps more than steels, but it can only take light/resisted hits). Maybe a good spin-blocker/killer of starmie?

edit: ok maybe breloom too but in the rain....?

Well, it's not very fast, so it'd need to run choice scarf to be useful against some threats...it also really can't take a hit from something like haxorus so it will need to be used carefully. I dont see it as an
Über but a fantastic revenge killer in OU definitely. Gothitelle just won't hack it in OU IMHO

[Griff]

Ebelt or sub does a great job against that core, but like pretty much everything nothing is unbeatable..

[R7Rules]

Originally Posted by Fat DrDLO

what impact would shadow tag chandelure have on the meta when it's released? I know trapping is good obviously, but it's defenses are not very high. It's not gonna come in on a, say, choice-locked flare blitz darmanitan or at the end of a haxorus/dragonite outrage to take another one...Even with all the rain going around (it has died down a little), is it's impact going to be limited to a niche trapper like magnezone (yea i know it traps more than steels, but it can only take light/resisted hits). Maybe a good spin-blocker/killer of starmie?

edit: ok maybe breloom too but in the rain....?

Shadow Tag Chandelure is a fool-proof answer to any defensive pokemon with a SubCM set with Shadow ball and Flamethrower. Want to get rid of the opponent's Blissey or Chansey? Set up a Substitute, Calm Mind until you get +6 boosts and pound away with Flamethrower. You can do this with Slowbro, Amoongus, Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory as well because all of them have weaknesses to Chandelure's suprisingly good STAB moves. Gliscor won't appreciate Chandelure either, but it is able to deal with it unlike the Pokémon previously mentioned. Chandelure also prevents all these Pokémon (apart from Gliscor) from supporting the team thanks to Chandelure's brilliant ability, its brilliant STABs and it's bone-crushing 145 Sp.Atk, and the opponents giving them a Shed Shell, the only way to deal with Chandelure, will mean they won't have passive recovery meaning weather conditions will wear them down, and therefore sand teams will rise in popularity as it seems that Garchomp might go down a tier thanks to Soul Dew Lati@s being introduced as well as Mamoswine rising in usage, and Excadrill won't be broken in OU anymore thanks to Keldeo and the popularity of rain teams. Sand teams would also rise in usage due to stall teams preparing for SubCM Chandelure, possibly the biggest threat stall teams will ever face bar Taunt, so Leftovers recovery will probably become a rarity. As for Choiced Chandelure, although I do think SubCM Chandelure will pose more of a threat, the Scarf variant will become one of the best revenge killers in the game thanks to the amount of threats it checks, and the Specs variant will be able to muscle through teams with its bone-crushing power. Due to all this I think we'll get a metagame built around Chandelure and we might get a check to Chandelure that isn't Heatran rising from the lower tiers, although thanks to its ability, I don't think there will be a true check to Chandelure and I think that the only true threat to Chandelure is prediction. I think SubCM Chandelure will cause stall to lose viability and it may spell UU or BL status for things like Forretress and Skarmory (Ferro will still see lots of usage due to rain teams). I also think that on the other end of the spectrum, pure offensive teams will hate Choiced Chandelure destroying their screener or their primary sweeper, and because of all these points, Chandelure will be at the top of its game in spinblocking, supporting, revenge-killing, trapping, destroying stall and even sweeping.

Edit: It will also serve well against your stereotypical Techniloom