(Other) B2W2 - The Beginning Cup - A hint of things to come?

[OVERGRO]

When I saw this tournament on Serebii, I immediately thought that this set of rules would be a very likely candidate to be the set of rules for the next VGC, in 2013. Here is a breakdown of the tourney, from serebii:

Originally Posted by Fat Serebii.net

This tournament is also the first tournament to feature the new rules about disconnecting, which penalise you and is also the first to be seperated into categories based on the date of birth listed on your Global Link account; Masters for those born before 1996, Senior for those born between 1997 and 2000 and Junior for those born after 2001. This tournament has 50,000 spaces with 10,000 being in Juniors and 20,000 in both Seniors and Masters.

Originally Posted by Fat Serebii.net

This is a Double Batle tournament open only for Pokémon in the Black 2 & White 2 Unova Pokédex, bar Victini, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Keldeo, Meloetta and Genesect.

Regardless of how many of us will be participating in this BW2 tournament, I think it's interesting to note a couple of things that indicate this is a very likely candidate for VGC '13.

1) Separation between Masters, Seniors and Juniors. Not too big of an indication, but very VGC-esque.

2) The fact that it is only open to BW2 Unova Pokedex Pokemon.
I only started seriously playing VGC a couple of years ago, but this seems like a good fit in the pattern of VGC rules. VGC 2010 allowed 2 Ubers (which is the other likely candidate for '13 rules), 2011 (the first Gen 5 VGC) allowed only Unova pokemon, 2012 was almost free game, so observing the Gen 5 pattern, only B2W2 Unova Pokemon appears to fit nicely as rules for the next VGC.

What do you think?

____________________________________

Aside from that, this is an interesting set of tournament restrictions no doubt.
For a few reasons:

Sand Stream and Drought are the only auto-permaweather. No Drizzle. No Snow Warning.

[---]

Therian Formes of Tornadus, Thundurus, and Landorus

[---][With Intimidate and higher attack stats]

[---]

[honchkro13]

As far as "patterns" go, I've given up on predicting what Nintendo will do in regards to Pokemon. BW was released on the 3DS, we got BW2 instead of Gray a full year earlier than I expected, and I'm sure that Nintendo will continue to throw curveballs all over the place. I wouldn't be surprised if the VGC 2013 ruleset turned out to be different from the ruleset of this particular wifi tournament. I'm sure I'll compete in VGC 2013 regardless of what ruleset they choose.

Having said that, I think this particular ruleset is terrible compared to VGC 2012. This ruleset, since it bans half the Pokemon out there, stifles creativity and team diversity. The metagame would revolve almost entirely around Tyranitar, Excadrill, Metagross and the Therian genies. Heck, a team with those 6 on it would probably end up being the World Championship team.

[OVERGRO]

Although you've got a point about the Sandy Therian metagame (that's not a bad team O_O), I personally sort of like it when there are a couple of limitations. It gives way to creativity in its own right, and working with what you have been given.

For example, knowing that Tyranitar will be present everywhere, it could increase usage of Cloud Nine Altaria and Golduck, Starmie, maybe even Rain Dance Crobat. Also it gives more spotlight to other pokemon like Gothitelle (Shadow Tag + Perish Song) and Escavalier.

Also, I beleive the Autumn Friendly in Japan was revealed before the official VGC '11 rules, so this could be it, I wouldn't rule anything out.

I'll also play VGC '13 no matter what the rules, but I wouldn't mind if this was it and they decided to be a little more predictable :)

(Also if this belongs in the regular VGC thread so be it, I'll let a mod decide that)

[PokeMaster366]

Originally Posted by Fat honchkro13

As far as "patterns" go, I've given up on predicting what Nintendo will do in regards to Pokemon. BW was released on the 3DS, we got BW2 instead of Gray a full year earlier than I expected, and I'm sure that Nintendo will continue to throw curveballs all over the place. I wouldn't be surprised if the VGC 2013 ruleset turned out to be different from the ruleset of this particular wifi tournament. I'm sure I'll compete in VGC 2013 regardless of what ruleset they choose.

Having said that, I think this particular ruleset is terrible compared to VGC 2012. This ruleset, since it bans half the Pokemon out there, stifles creativity and team diversity. The metagame would revolve almost entirely around Tyranitar, Excadrill, Metagross and the Therian genies. Heck, a team with those 6 on it would probably end up being the World Championship team.

...Nah. I don't think the Therian forms or Sandstorm are going to be that overpowered so long as Scarf Terrakion and good HP Ice users exist.

I'll actually be very happy if this is going to be the rules for VGC '13. I'm really looking forward to seeing how much potential Sun has now that DrizzleToed and Abomasnow are gone.

Here's a list of the Pokemon in the BW2 Unova Pokedex if anyone's interested.

[Solace*]

I actually like these rules. I found that while VGC 12 had a lot of room for team creativity, it also had WAY too much to prepare for, and opened up a lot of team match up troubles.

While sand will certainly be trouble, I don't think it will be as dominating as people like to think it will be. There are plenty of Pokemon that can bring trouble to sand teams, and also function well in and out of that weather.

Should be a fun metagame and I'd be pretty happy if it were VGC 2013.

Either way, I'm looking forward to seeing any Battle Videos of this tournament to see what the Japanese are using, even if it isn't the VGC 13 meta, I hope we get one of these in the US to play!

[Drifblim]

This is a unique enough ruleset it seems odd it would be used just for this tournament, I think I might enjoy seeing it become VGC 2013. imo, the only other possibility is VGC 2012+Therians and tutors, which while being a sizable distinction from 2012 would not be TOO big. They will probably hold off on allowing Uber legends until 2014 season if at all.

[OVERGRO]

Yeah, I think you've got it Drifblim, thats what I was trying to say.
And Solace I agree with as well, I do see an alright amount of balance in this potential metagame.
Of course, no matter what there will be pokemon that shine a bit brighter than others, (Tyranitar will likely be more popular than Cobalion, for ex.) however whats important is there is enough balance present for this to be a solid candidate for a solid metagame.

[OVERGRO]

Sorry for the double post but...

I tried coming up with teams for this new meta today and boy, it was definitely harder than it looks. I'm considering just making a Haxorus team :/

I'm finding that my teams are all very Water / Ice weak, which is good news for Sun teams and alright news for the weak (offensively) water types in this meta like Starmie and Jellicent.

Also, Weavile hits a great deal of Pokemon in this meta super-effectively, namely the genies, dragons, psychics, and Rocks (if Brick Break) with speedy attacks.

Furthermore, I'm pretty convinced this will be the VGC 2013 metagame, as it is proving to be different from both 2011 and 2012, and what better way to make us buy B2W2?

[PokeMaster366]

Originally Posted by Fat OVERGRO

Sorry for the double post but...

I tried coming up with teams for this new meta today and boy, it was definitely harder than it looks. I'm considering just making a Haxorus team :/

I'm finding that my teams are all very Water / Ice weak, which is good news for Sun teams and alright news for the weak (offensively) water types in this meta like Starmie and Jellicent.

Also, Weavile hits a great deal of Pokemon in this meta super-effectively, namely the genies, dragons, psychics, and Rocks (if Brick Break) with speedy attacks.

Furthermore, I'm pretty convinced this will be the VGC 2013 metagame, as it is proving to be different from both 2011 and 2012, and what better way to make us buy B2W2?

I think that the Ninetales/Leafeon combo is going to be popular. Thanks to an Adamant nature and Chlorophyll, Leafeon has just enough power to OHKO Terrakion as well as outspeed scarfed variants. To be honest, he doesn't have a lot of offensive potential on his own, but one other niche he has in order to compensate for this is access to Helping Hand. Long story short about Helping Hand, Ninetales' Heat Wave + Sun + STAB + Fire Gem + HH Support = Guaranteed OHKO on any genie that doesn't have any defensive investment (Landorus with max HP has a chance of surviving, but he's not that safe, either). Access to an unsealable Detect isn't so bad, either, but TR teams with Jellicent leading the charge are going to give the Ninetales/Leafeon combo trouble.

[OVERGRO]

The Ninetales-Leafeon combo is definately sounding like something I would want to try out! Not only does adamant Leafeon KO Terrakion, but it KOs Jellicent as well, so even Jellicent + Amoonguss TR leads will fail. I would suggest pairing it up with a decent Ice or Rock type move user though, since Leafeon can't do much more offensively than Leaf Blade and Double Edge.

The other problem here is that Ninetales isn't very fast, and Landorus (non Therian) outspeeds and OHKOs.

Finally, Tyranitar (or Hippowdown I guess) will be slow enough to set up Sand after Ninetales has set up sun, making sand (especially if it's packing Jellicent) a greater enemy to the sun teams in this metagame than anything else, IMO.

[PokeMaster366]

Originally Posted by Fat OVERGRO

The Ninetales-Leafeon combo is definately sounding like something I would want to try out! Not only does adamant Leafeon KO Terrakion, but it KOs Jellicent as well, so even Jellicent + Amoonguss TR leads will fail. I would suggest pairing it up with a decent Ice or Rock type move user though, since Leafeon can't do much more offensively than Leaf Blade and Double Edge.

The other problem here is that Ninetales isn't very fast, and Landorus (non Therian) outspeeds and OHKOs.

Finally, Tyranitar (or Hippowdown I guess) will be slow enough to set up Sand after Ninetales has set up sun, making sand (especially if it's packing Jellicent) a greater enemy to the sun teams in this metagame than anything else, IMO.

Yeah, but they tend to have Scrafty on their team as well, which might actually lead to Gliscor getting some popularity as a member of Sun teams as opposed to Sand teams. Flying is generally a good STAB to have, and his part Ground typing in general along with Sand Veil gives him an edge against Sandstorm teams. Due to these quirks he has, it gives people a reason to use him over Tornadus. The 4x Ice weakness is a pain, but now that Abomasnow is gone and Water types have been nerfed by the lack of DrizzleToed, he's probably going to be put high on the "to kill" list.

[Project_Mars]

I am looking forward to this ruleset, and don't see the fact that it uses less 'mons as a detriment, but as a good thing. It would lead some to experiment with new move set ideas, and can still lead to diversity. (which is part of how I discovered I love Musharna immensely. It's bulky, provides some of the same utility as cress, but is immune to team damage making it better with Helping Hand. It is also fairly decent at attack and will often go first in trick room.) It will also lead to some 'mons that aren't commonly used being used. (hydreigon and eelektross being two major ones) And it'll show what a metagame without drizzletoad would be like, and show how rain may try to adapt.

Also: Mamoswine is in to do good against Sand, and Bronzong can set up rain too. Also Chloraphyll Sawsbuck seems scary.

[OVERGRO]

When you say "they" who are you referring to?

Anyways, you're right about Gliscor. Here is a calc of 252 Atk + nature Scrafty Ice Punch on 252 HP Gliscor:
252Atk Scrafty (+Atk) Ice Punch in Sun vs 252HP/0Def Gliscor (Neutral): 65% - 77% (232 - 276 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Gliscor does 77-91% in return, but clearly that's more manageable.
Weavile, however, does OHKO all the time with Ice Punch. Which brings us back to "Weavile is a threat."

So if we're building a Sun Team, we've got Ninetales, Leafeon, Gliscor, Conkeldurr (to take out Weavile and Tyranitar). What's left? Something to take opposing Heat Waves and stop Trick Room. I nominate Chandelure! And that leaves us with needing another water and ground resist, and I nominate Virizion! How I feel we're Flygon and Haxorus weak, but hey, who wants to test this team out?

[PokeMaster366]

Originally Posted by Fat OVERGRO

When you say "they" who are you referring to?

Anyways, you're right about Gliscor. Here is a calc of 252 Atk + nature Scrafty Ice Punch on 252 HP Gliscor:
252Atk Scrafty (+Atk) Ice Punch in Sun vs 252HP/0Def Gliscor (Neutral): 65% - 77% (232 - 276 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Gliscor does 77-91% in return, but clearly that's more manageable.
Weavile, however, does OHKO all the time with Ice Punch. Which brings us back to "Weavile is a threat."

So if we're building a Sun Team, we've got Ninetales, Leafeon, Gliscor, Conkeldurr (to take out Weavile and Tyranitar). What's left? Something to take opposing Heat Waves and stop Trick Room. I nominate Chandelure! And that leaves us with needing another water and ground resist, and I nominate Virizion! How I feel we're Flygon and Haxorus weak, but hey, who wants to test this team out?

When I was saying "they", I was referring to other TR teams, and I think you forgot to include the Flying Gem in the calculations.

[OVERGRO]

Well do you think Chandelure would be good enough to check TR then?
Also, I did forget the Gem.

Anyways, one descision that will be hard for people to make is to go Therian or not, especially with Tornadus and Thundurus.
Prankster has many benefits, but is the increased attack power worth it in this meta? I find a lot in VGC there are two pokemon statuses: a pokemon that can attack, and a pokemon that can't. Even a pokemon with 5 HP left can attack you! So does the extra power add any KOs?

[honchkro13]

Originally Posted by Fat OVERGRO

Well do you think Chandelure would be good enough to check TR then?
Also, I did forget the Gem.

Anyways, one descision that will be hard for people to make is to go Therian or not, especially with Tornadus and Thundurus.
Prankster has many benefits, but is the increased attack power worth it in this meta? I find a lot in VGC there are two pokemon statuses: a pokemon that can attack, and a pokemon that can't. Even a pokemon with 5 HP left can attack you! So does the extra power add any KOs?

The extra power has its benefits. I used to run a Beat Up Weavile+Cobalion in VGC 2012. I originally had a Chople Berry on Cobalion, but found that my enemies had only 3 HP left or so after Cobalion's boosted assaults. A simple Muscle Band gave me the extra power to net many OHKOs.

With sun becoming a major threat in this metagame, I doubt this combo would as effective though.

[kamz]

According to a PTO in texas only bw1 will be allowed for the first regional championship so that would mean vgc 2012 will be shown again

[honchkro13]

Originally Posted by Fat kamz

According to a PTO in texas only bw1 will be allowed for the first regional championship so that would mean vgc 2012 will be shown again

I've heard someone else say this before. I hope this really means VGC 2012 rules with BW2 tutors and Therians!

[JRank]

Originally Posted by Fat honchkro13

I've heard someone else say this before. I hope this really means VGC 2012 rules with BW2 tutors and Therians!

Playing on BW1 carts would mean Therians would not be allowed, as they appear to be the regular formes in the game(s).

[honchkro13]

Originally Posted by Fat JRank

Playing on BW1 carts would mean Therians would not be allowed, as they appear to be the regular formes in the game(s).

*facepalm* oh yeah, forgot about that. Guess it's because I keep running into seemingly ordinary Landorus on GBU only to find that they have Intimidate. I've gotten used to that by now :\

[The Knights of Wario Land]

Fall Regionals only using BW1 carts?

Kinda unfair, considering that the Therian forms are pretty effective. But it makes sense too, because BW2 would only be out for a week before fall regionals.

[OVERGRO]

Fall regionals are in October? Oh man, you're right, it would be a bad deal for them to make it on BW2 carts merely a weeks after release. Maybe they'll provide the option?

Given this information though, it's really hurting the plausibility of this as a possible VGC 13 metagame. I just hope they don't repeat 2012 with move tutor moves... that would be pretty lacklustre.

Regardless, I have been playing with this stuff and it's good fun :)

[CooltrainerAlan]

Well, lets see. Some important pokemon I can point out are:
Attackers:
Azumarill (TR)
Excadrill(Sa)
Conkeldurr
Metagross
Scrafty
Heracross
Haxorus
Arcanine
Landorus
Mienfoo
Electivire
Weavile
Mamoswine
Slaking(TR)
Toxicroak
Tyranitar(Sa)


Special Attackers:
Chandelure(TR:poss)
Magnet(z)on(e)
Magmortar
Reuniclus(TR)
Jolteon
Espeon
Roserade
Zoroark
Volcarona(Su/No Sun)
Tornadus
Thundurus
Virizion
Starmie
Ninetales
Hydreigon(S/No Sun)
Yanmega(SPEED BOOST)

Defensive/Support
Ferrothorn
Whimsicott
Clefable(Follow Me)
Amoonguss(Rage Powder/TR)
Vaporeon
Umbreon
Sigilyph(Psycho shift)
Cofagrigus(TR)
Jellicent(TR/No TR)
Tangrowth(Su)
Cobalion
Shuckle :P
Bronzong
Lickilicky(Weather Stopper)

Possible threats:
Cincinno(Skill Link)
Gothitelle(Shadow Tag)
Sandslash(Sa)
Zangoose(Toxic Boost)
Aron(Sturdy/Sa)
Ditto(Imposter)


Unorthodox Threats:
Pinsir (Hyper Cutter)
Gigalith
Leafeon(Su)
Krookidile(Int)
Darmanitan(Su/ No Sun)
Flygon
Floatzel
Escavailer(TR)
Archeops
Carracosta(Shell Smash)
Sawsbuck(Su)
Eelektross(TR)
Absol(Sucker Punch)
Lapras
Walrein
Golurk(TR)
Crawdawnt


From the looks of it, Trick Room and Sun is the best. Sawsbuck, Tangrowth and Leafeon are good sun canidates.

[OVERGRO]

Sun and TRoom look like things to watch out for, but sand and the genies should under no circumstances be underestimated!

If this ends up being the metagame though, it's going to be pretty essential to pack both sun and TRoom counters, moreso than perhaps VGC 2012

[Project_Mars]

Which reminds me. How do you think a duo of Lickilicky and Cinccino work vs Weather teams? Cinccino gets SE hits vs Ninetails and Tyranitar (Ditto with the other non-legendary weather starters) and might have enough power to ensure a 1hko on them. (If it can 1hko a Salamence after an attack drop and no life orb/choice band, then I believe it can) When it comes to threats, Cinccino has Bullet Seed to smack most Ground, Rock, and Water types, and Rock Blast to hurt Fire types, as well as getting SE hits on the genies (at least, just Tornadus and Thundarus), which it naturally outspeeds.

Lickilicky... doesn't really add much that Cinccino can't cover, but it does get access to Earthquake, which would require Cinccino to use Protect to not accidentally get caught in friendly fire, to handle steels, something Cinccino can't damage. Plus it is fairly bulky, which allows it to do its main job of locking out weather and keeping a lot of threats that would otherwise outspeed the duo out.

Against trick room... well, lickilicky is slow and could potentially move faster, but Cinccino is dead weight, meaning this combo's main use would be limited.