Balanced Hackmons

[Groudon ex]

Mewtwo @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere
- Taunt
- Substitute

This is THE Baton Pass receiver. Sit back and watch how you destroy everything with Stored Power after obtaining +6 in every stat. Aura Sphere is obviously necessary to hit the occasional Dark types. The real selling point of this set though is that Unaware/Prankster Heart Swap users cannot stop it. Thanks to Prankster Taunt, Mewtwo can block any attempts by the opponent to steal its boosts before they have the chance. Although the rise in Sp. Attack is ignored by Unaware users, Stored Power still maintains the same BP as if the boosted were applied. Although you'll likely be passing this Mewtwo a sub in order to keep Blissey away, the move Substitute allows you to set up another one in case your sub broke for whatever reason. Rocky Helmet is the preferred item as it gives Mewtwo a pinch way of beating Shedinja, although Leftovers could also be used to stay healthy in sandstorm/hail.

[nyph]

Originally Posted by Fat DTC

Also, there are now stats for Balanced Hackmons. Check them out

That's awesome. Really good info.

Can now get some solid data on pokemon SE coverage.
Dark or ghost and fighting hits the top 10 mons supereffectively and 16 out of the top 20.
Ice/fight hits 13 of the top 17 mons supereffectively.
Electric only gets 3 of the top 20 supereffectively.
Fire is only super effective against 1 mon in the top 20 (and thats ferrothorn, #16).
Ground only hits dialga SE, out of the top 20.


Things that suprise me:
- Blissey used more than Giratina.
- Dialga is #17 (with rayquaza above it... wtf?, maybe assist teams?)
- Registeel is #26 (below deoxys-d :s)
- Kyogre used slightly more than Palkia
- Ditto is #38 (???)
- Reshiram is #25. Latios is ~3x as common

Originally Posted by Fat Groudon ex

Mewtwo @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stored Power
- Aura Sphere
- Taunt
- Substitute

This is THE Baton Pass receiver. Sit back and watch how you destroy everything with Stored Power after obtaining +6 in every stat. Aura Sphere is obviously necessary to hit the occasional Dark types. The real selling point of this set though is that Unaware/Prankster Heart Swap users cannot stop it. Thanks to Prankster Taunt, Mewtwo can block any attempts by the opponent to steal its boosts before they have the chance. Although the rise in Sp. Attack is ignored by Unaware users, Stored Power still maintains the same BP as if the boosted were applied. Although you'll likely be passing this Mewtwo a sub in order to keep Blissey away, the move Substitute allows you to set up another one in case your sub broke for whatever reason. Rocky Helmet is the preferred item as it gives Mewtwo a pinch way of beating Shedinja, although Leftovers could also be used to stay healthy in sandstorm/hail.

Why mewtwo? Why not dialga, giratina, latios, gengar or jirachi? At +6 everything stored power is going to ohko anything so you might as well pick a bulkier mon.

[DryBoo]

I now present a truly terrifying mon... Swinub!

Lvl 1 Swinub@Shell Bell
Nature: whatever you want
Sturdy
-Endeavor
-Extremespeed
-Forseight(sp?)
-Magic Coat

One may ask why not Shednija instead? If hail or sandstorm is up this thing can and will sweep teams. Endeavor + hail/sandstorm (which has to set up by something with the respective ability) can and usually will KO everything in the tier. Meanwhile, Shednija just dies in weather.

[Gyro]

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Endeavor
- ExtremeSpeed
- Recycle

The strategy is simple, Spore the opponent, use Recycle for recuperate the Focus Sash and spam Endevoar and ExtremeSpeed, maybe in combo with Trick Room would be awesome, but the biggest problem for this moveset are the Ghost type...

[ironivy]

Originally Posted by Fat Gyro

Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Spore
- Endeavor
- ExtremeSpeed
- Recycle

The strategy is simple, Spore the opponent, use Recycle for recuperate the Focus Sash and spam Endevoar and ExtremeSpeed, maybe in combo with Trick Room would be awesome, but the biggest problem for this moveset are the Ghost type...

Why ExtremeSpeed, why not Ice Shard? Ice Shard can hit every type in the game.

[Boltaway]

Originally Posted by Fat ironivy

Why ExtremeSpeed, why not Ice Shard? Ice Shard can hit every type in the game.

The main reason to pick Extremespeed over Ice Shard is that it has higher priority, but personally, I'd still pick Ice Shard.

[ForeverPerfectXI]

This seemed as good a place for this question as any:

Freeze Shock is disabled for Balanced Hackmons on account of Assist Kyurem-B. Makes 100% sense to me.

It is also disabled for Pure Hackmons. Is this on purpose as well? It seems slightly less threatening there with WonderGuard, No Guard Sheer Cold, and Pure Power around. It also seems out of line with Pure Hackmons to ban things.

[shstakvchlvr]

This isn't a joke, so don't laugh.

Nosepass @ Eviolite

Trait: Magic Bounce
Careful Nature
-Cosmic Power
-Roost
-Clear Smog
-Roar

Before we begin there are two things that are needed for this to be successful. 1) Sand Stream in effect, and 2) Stealth Rock + Toxic Spikes (Spikes isn't necessary but it's nice as well). CB Terrakion is actually still great in BH so I use it as a Sand Stream CB'er. For Toxic Spikes you can really use what you want as long as it's not something that attracts Magic Bounce users (i.e. something usually offensive / not used for hazards). Once you get those down you're pretty safe since the only Poison-type I've seen in BH is Gengar.

After one Cosmic Power, your Nosepass has 264 HP (bad), 831 Def (great), and 1047 SpD (great). Compare this to Cosmic Power Magic Bounce Lugia, who after one Cosmic Power has 416 HP, 591 Def, and 611 SpD. The only thing Lugia beats Nosepass in is HP.

Roar seems to be better since it can hit through Sub, but Dragon Tail is possible in its place. Clear Smog stops boosters of any kind and Roost keeps Nosepass alive. I guess you could use Recover, but Roost is much funnier. Clearly this Pokemon needs support to take care of whatever the final Pokemon might be, so I recommend something HO to go in your last slot, which is why the CB Terrakion I mentioned earlier is great. It outspeeds a majority of the BH'ers and usually won't have trouble destroying the opponent due to Clear Smog taking away any boosts to the defenses.

[Heroes and Cons]

The main issue with this pokemon is that Mold Breaker Deoxys-S is everywhere. Mold Breaker beats Magic Bounce so you are simply phazed away or Taunted. It also has poor defensive typing, and Unaware pokemon with a Supereffective attack will blast you into the floor. It IS a good set, and nosepass' bulk is very surprising, but it is easily beaten bu the right pokemon / abilities.

[Sixalix]

I don't play on PS that much, but after seeing this thread, I theorymoned a set for BH.

Reshiram@Lum Berry/Leftovers/Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Rocky Helmet/Whatever
Contrary
Neutral nature
252 EVs in every stat

V-Create
Draco Meteor
Superpower
Recover

Pretty much, you get STAB on V-Create and Draco Meteor coming off of Reshiram's excellent attacking stats. With contrary, this makes it so all the negative boosts coming off Reshiram's attacking moves turn into positive boost. Which means you can use Draco Meteor 3 times and have +6 Sp.A, then start V-Creating until you have +6 Speed and +6 in both defenses. Then you start superpowering until you're at +6 attack. Then You start spamming V-Create and Draco Meteor and everything dies. Heatran? Superpower. Shedinja? Err.... Stealth Rocks? This requires some team support to take care of threats such as Choice Scarf Imposter Blissey and Sturdy Shedinja. But when played right, I believe this has the potential to be devastating.

[Boltaway]

Originally Posted by Fat Sixalix

I don't play on PS that much, but after seeing this thread, I theorymoned a set for BH.

Reshiram@Lum Berry/Leftovers/Choice Scarf/Life Orb/Rocky Helmet/Whatever
Contrary
Neutral nature
252 EVs in every stat

V-Create
Draco Meteor
Superpower
Recover

Pretty much, you get STAB on V-Create and Draco Meteor coming off of Reshiram's excellent attacking stats. With contrary, this makes it so all the negative boosts coming off Reshiram's attacking moves turn into positive boost. Which means you can use Draco Meteor 3 times and have +6 Sp.A, then start V-Creating until you have +6 Speed and +6 in both defenses. Then you start superpowering until you're at +6 attack. Then You start spamming V-Create and Draco Meteor and everything dies. Heatran? Superpower. Shedinja? Err.... Stealth Rocks? This requires some team support to take care of threats such as Choice Scarf Imposter Blissey and Sturdy Shedinja. But when played right, I believe this has the potential to be devastating.

That set is actually quite common, but a couple nitpicks.
You DON'T want to run a neutral nature. Reshiram's speed tier 90, which means it will be outspeed and OHKO'd by a variety of things. Run a speed boosting nature always.
Kyurem-W has more bulk and special attack than Reshiram, so use that instead.
Because of Kyurem-W's speed issues, you will almost always want to use V-Create first, as it makes him much harder to revenge kill.
Recover might be difficult to fit in because a) (p)Hazers are common in BH and b) you could simply just be revenge killed. I find Substitute/Baton Pass to be a much more useful tool; the first blocks Imposter and the latter is great for momentuma and passing boosts to something that walls you.
Also, due to the lack of team preview, you're going to have to scout your entire opponent's team, which might make playing Kyurem-W as a sort of lure to be better. Note that your opponent will break your substitute before sending out Imposter Blissey. You're also still affected by Prankster Heartswap.

[jackm]

Wow, this tier is beyond awesome. There should be list of sets that people post in the OP though, this is getting hard to surf because of its length. Wondering if Mewtwo with the following set is viable:

Mewtwo @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Lum Berry (dunno which)
Trait: Contrary
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Psycho Boost
- Overheat
- Draco Meteor
- Substitute

Substitute upon the switch to the counter, and then act accordingly. After 3 attacks, you're at +6, at which point you 2HKO Blissey (+Sdef nature) with everything, dealing a minimum of 56.3 with Overheat/Draco Meteor and a minimum of 84.45 with Psycho Boost. I'm concerned with it being outsped by pranksters but it seems like it could smash heads if used correctly. V-Create could be used in place of Overheat with a -Sdef nature to boost speed, but it's pathetically weak without boosts. Sorry if this post sounds noobish but I'm new to this sort of thinking.

Oh yeah, and Lum Slaking posing and Shedninja FTW.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat jackm

Wow, this tier is beyond awesome. There should be list of sets that people post in the OP though, this is getting hard to surf because of its length. Wondering if Mewtwo with the following set is viable:

Mewtwo @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Lum Berry (dunno which)
Trait: Contrary
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Psycho Boost
- Overheat
- Draco Meteor
- Substitute

Substitute upon the switch to the counter, and then act accordingly. After 3 attacks, you're at +6, at which point you 2HKO Blissey (+Sdef nature) with everything, dealing a minimum of 56.3 with Overheat/Draco Meteor and a minimum of 84.45 with Psycho Boost. I'm concerned with it being outsped by pranksters but it seems like it could smash heads if used correctly. V-Create could be used in place of Overheat with a -Sdef nature to boost speed, but it's pathetically weak without boosts. Sorry if this post sounds noobish but I'm new to this sort of thinking.

Oh yeah, and Lum Slaking posing and Shedninja FTW.

The combination of Substitute and Contrary can be very deadly, but using it on Mewtwo dampens the effect when there are much more viable Contrary pokemon out there. I specifically would recommend Latios with Soul Dew, a significantly stronger pokemon with both better STAB and the ability to take Blissey on one on one if you don't have time to get a Substitute up (Imposter doesn't copy the Soul Dew boost).

[Ithilanor]

Speaking of Contrary abusers, how viable is Ho-Oh in that role? STAB on V-Create is nice, and Superpower can be used to boost, albeit more slowly than specially-oriented pokes with Draco Meteor/Overheat/etc.

EDIT: Here's a wacky idea - Mixed Contrary Meloetta, with Relic Song/Psycho Boost/Superpower/V-create. Too crazy, or just the right amount of crazy?

[verbatim]

Eh, all Ho-Oh really brings over Reshiram is a higher attack stat (and only by ten points) and better special bulk compared to the great deal of Special Attack and Dragon STAB that you lose out on when using Ho-Oh over Reshiram. Between a lack of bulk and limited STAB Meloetta is not going to be successful in Balanced Hackmons no matter how you play her.

[jackm]

What about Drizzle Ferrothorn?

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Trait: Drizzle
Some defensive -Spe nature, Sassy or
- Recover
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Filler (Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, Tailwind [hey, I'm just brainstorming])

This could support Rain teams pretty well, fostering deadly powers like Swift Swim Palkia/Kyurem-B/Zekrom/Slaking and creating ridiculous walls with Dry Skin. Rain seems like it could be pretty influential in this metagame if used correctly, and Ferrothorn seems like the perfect setter. Great bulk, a typing that makes use of the weather, and good synergy with abusers make it seem like Ferro is ideal for this role. Sadly, it doesn't look like it has much actual utility countering things in the metagame, so its use is probably just spiking, setting rain, and switching into random choiced attacks. Not like that's bad, it's just it could be better.

[Ithilanor]

Originally Posted by Fat verbatim

Eh, all Ho-Oh really brings over Reshiram is a higher attack stat (and only by ten points) and better special bulk compared to the great deal of Special Attack and Dragon STAB that you lose out on when using Ho-Oh over Reshiram. Between a lack of bulk and limited STAB Meloetta is not going to be successful in Balanced Hackmons no matter how you play her.

@Ho-Oh - what it lets you do is focus on the physical side of things, although I guess you could still do that with Reshiram/Kyurem-W.

@Meoletta - the lack of bulk is a definite issue, but she's fast as hell, and Fighting STAB seems really good in the BH meta.

[Heroes and Cons]

Originally Posted by Fat Ithilanor

@Meoletta - the lack of bulk is a definite issue, but she's fast as hell, and Fighting STAB seems really good in the BH meta.

Exactly how is base 90speed "fast as hell"? Terrakion completely outclasses Meloetta.

[Keiran]

When Meloetta is in her alternate form, she gets base 128 speed.

[Ithilanor]

Originally Posted by Fat Keiran

When Meloetta is in her alternate form, she gets base 128 speed.

Yeah, that. While that makes it harder to set up, in her standard form she's at least got significant bulk, and can power up with Psycho Boost.

[verbatim]

Originally Posted by Fat Ithilanor

@Meoletta - the lack of bulk is a definite issue, but she's fast as hell, and Fighting STAB seems really good in the BH meta.

Meloetta-P's speed tier may be nice, but it comes along with horrendous defensive stats and an inability to go mixed without switching back and forth between formes. In addition, Meloetta-P is nowhere near good enough to justify having to use a move to change over to her each time you send her out.

[akela]

Because in order to switch between forms, you have to dedicate 1 of Meloetta's 4 moves to an easy to block move. Effectively, using both forms of Meloetta only gives you 3 moves to choose from.

[Ithilanor]

True. Ok, probably not worth using.
Next question: what are the most-used Giratina sets in BH like, and what works best as a counter?

[nyph]

Another assist team hehe (was waiting for the original assist bug to be patched in order to try this).

Giratina @ Leppa Berry
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SDef / 252 SAtk / 252 Def / 252 Atk / 252 HP
Timid Nature
- Assist
- Fiery Dance
- Recycle
- Dragon Pulse

Blissey @ Rocky Helmet
Trait: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
- Shadow Force


Assist shadow force blocks all moves targetting Giratina for two turns, allowing you to use a different move on turn 2 and still be protected. Meaning only faster prankster users are able to do anything at all to giratina. Gengar is probably better though because of its 20 higher base speed.
Been messing around with sky drop and shadow force assist and whatnot and this is the best set up I have found pretty much.
Shedinja gets pp stalled by leppa recycle.

[ForeverPerfectXI]

Interesting idea. But it isn't near as threatening as Kyurem-B and assist will frequently select one of the other moves on the Giratina set, meaning it won't work as effectively as it should.. This will surely cause a small rise in No Guard if this becomes at all popular though. I could see using No Guard Dialga, Latios, Arceus or even opposing Giratina.