Crisis Core Revival! Round Five

[FLCL]

Originally Posted by Fat BattleStar

Finally finshed mine

+
Misdreavous and Zangoose

Misdreavous already is one of the most solid counters for Cinccino in RU. However it usually has trouble dealing serious damage to it with it having to rely solely on Will-O-Wisp and Pain split. I then however use another counter that is used to stop Cinccino; Rocky Helmet. Misdreavous is only 3HKOed if lucky enough for Cinccino with the Life Orb set. After just one rock blast Cinccino is already have a vast chunk of it taken out. Another thing is Misdreavous can also burn Cinccino which will let it tank its attacks even easier. If Cinccino U-Turns out it will still receive some damage and let Golurk get burned, which will cripple it. It then can Pain Split if needed and fire Shadow Balls that will hurt it. Grantred that Misdreavous can get KOed by Golurk, it is most reasonable to think Golurk will be using Shadow Punch. In which case I can provide a safe switch in to Zangoose. Golurk is already banded so it won't be able to switch attacks on Zangoose. Ergo it must either switch or be KOed. Next however is the challenge; Cinccino. If Golurk switches this can be made much easier. Cinccino will take a Night Slash which will hurt very much. After that just an Quick Attack will finish it off before it lands a hit. Then I can proceed to finish off Golurk and everything works off to a Happy end.

However knowing that life really rarely ever has a happy end, you have to prepare for the worse. If Zangoose is the first to encounter I then would switch to Misdreavous. Most likely Cinccono will use tail slap that won't harm me. If however it uses Bullet Seed ir Rock Blast it will have a large portion of its health taken out(which then can be KOed by Zangooses Quick Attack). After that I will fire off a WoW. Cinccino will either switch to Golurk or be burned. Even if WoW misses. I can either fire again at Cinccino (whcih Misdreavous can tank many hits from and will be dead the second attack) or ftry again if Golurk switched in because I am faster. Most likely someone will be burned. After that Misdreavous is not needed and can be KOed. Thus we can have Zangoose finsih everything off.

I did Calcs and all and its certain Zangoose can cause the damage I said and Misdreavous can tank the blows. If anything need clarfiying or a possible issue comes up I would be more than happy to address it. I am gettiong into NU more now so I find Crisis Core a great Excersice.

Here are the sets I used for my Core Counter


Misdreavous@Rocky Helmet
Trait: Levitate
252 HP/252 Def/ 4 SpAtk
-Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
-Heal Bell


Zangoose@Toxic Orb
Trait: Toxic Boost
252 Atk/252 Spe/ 4 HP
-Protect
-Quick Attack
-Night Slash
-Close Combat

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk (+Atk) Shadow Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Misdreavus (+Def) : 113.89% - 134.26%
Guaranteed OHKO

Both Pokemon are OHKO'ed by Golurk, so this core does not work. Even if you sac Misdreavus and get Zangoose in safely, Cinccino can still outrun and OHKO Zangoose while avoiding the KO from Quick Attack.

[BattleStar]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk (+Atk) Shadow Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Misdreavus (+Def) : 113.89% - 134.26%
Guaranteed OHKO

Both Pokemon are OHKO'ed by Golurk, so this core does not work. Even if you sac Misdreavus and get Zangoose in safely, Cinccino can still outrun and OHKO Zangoose while avoiding the KO from Quick Attack.

That's true however I already thought of that. There are two things I can do.

Option 1: I can always take a risk and Will-O-Wisp Golurk. That then will cripple it immensely. I then will be able to survive Shadow Punch. Then I may Pain Split to heal, Shadow Ball Golurk(which will 2HKO him), or just switch in to Zangoose can not have Shadow Punch affect me. Then I can proceed from there to 2HKO Golurk with Night Slash or if it switches to Cinninco it will take damage from the Night Slash and next turn be KOed by Quick Attack(which doesn't matter if Cinninco is faster).

Option 2: If I don't even use Misdreavous, I switch right into the Shadow Shadow Punch I am immune to. From there I do like I said above. Night Slash to 2HKO Golurk or if switched I KO Cinninco the previous turn with Quick Attack.

However there is another scenario that you may want to bring up.
If the opponent choose to let Golurk go, it then can bring Cinncinco safely. From there I can only Quick Attack then be knocked out or just switch into Misdreavous. Next Cinnicino will be damaged drastically by Rocky Helmet. Next it wont matter. Even if Cinnicino manages to faint Misdreavous Zangoose comes in and finishes it off with Quick Attack.

I really don't see what was the big threat you brought up. It's pretty easy to work around. Thanks though for bringing it up.

[FLCL]

But you have to be able to switch into Golurk while it's in already or else it isn't classified as counter.

[ThePhalanx]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure your core has to SWITCH IN to the opposing core. Since neither of your pokes can switch into Golurk safely, you lose. Though if your opponent leads with Cinccino then that's no problem. Once again, don't quote me on this.

Edit: GODDAMIT FLCL NINJA

[BattleStar]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

But you have to be able to switch into Golurk while it's in already or else it isn't classified as counter.

Zangoose can already switch into Golurk on Shadow Punch.

[FLCL]

Originally Posted by Fat BattleStar

Zangoose can already switch into Golurk on Shadow Punch.

Zangoose will die to Drain Punch. Even if you switch to Misdreavus after, the opponent can simply switch to Cinccino, take the burn, and wear you down with Bullet Seed. Rocky Helmet will not activate if I recall correctly since it is not a contact move. Even if you manage to somehow stall Cinccino out, Shadow Ball will not KO Golurk and Golurk can KO you even if it's burned after two rounds of Bullet Seed from a burnt Cinccino.


Burned 252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk (+Atk) Shadow Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Misdreavus (+Def) : 57.41% - 67.59%
2 hits to KO

Burned 252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Bullet Seed vs 252 HP/252 Def Misdreavus (+Def) : 21.91% - 25.93%
4-5 hits to KO

4 SpAtk Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs 168 HP/0 SpDef Golurk: 50.69% - 59.83%
2 hits to KO

[BattleStar]

Granted, thanks for pointing that out. I appreciate it.So how will it do if I edit the set to this

Misdreavous@Leftovers
252 HP/252 Def/ 4 SpAtk
-Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
-Hidden Power Fighting

So now I know that Rocky Helmet useless I replaced it with leftovers. So if you wan to you need new Calcs. Also I replaced Heal Bell for HP Fighting, it's going to take a while for Cinccinco to KO me and I most likely will kill it with WoW and HP Gighting before it KOs me.

[ThePhalanx]

You still can't switch in to Golurk with that set, unfortunately.

[FLCL]

He doesn't need to, he can switch in Zangoose, let it die to Drain Punch, and go to town with Misdreavus. Personally, I think Eviolite would be a safer choice over Leftovers, but it could probably work with either way especially since he has Hidden Power Fighting now.

[BattleStar]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePhalanx

You still can't switch in to Golurk with that set, unfortunately.

True, however I can still Night Slash Golurk with Zangoose. Then I can bring in Misdreavous to finish it. However to my knowledge Misdreavous can switch into Ice Punch and Stone Edge. It of course won't be affected by Drain Punch or Golurk would not attack with Shadow Punch against Zangoose. Most likely Golurk will use Drain Punch which will provide a safe switch in. After that it will be forced to switch to Cinnicino which will be finished by Misdreavous. Then Golurk may come back in, I might be able to finish I off. If not I just bring in Zangoose to finish it.

[ThePhalanx]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

He doesn't need to, he can switch in Zangoose, let it die to Drain Punch, and go to town with Misdreavus. Personally, I think Eviolite would be a safer choice over Leftovers, but it could probably work with either way especially since he has Hidden Power Fighting now.

Oh right. I hadn't thought of that. Okay then, that missy core seems much more solid now.

[melvni]

Just going to point out that technically anything partnered with Alomomola counters this core since even if your counter core is Alomomola + Lvl 1 Caterpie, you end up winning simply by switching Caterpie in on Cinccino and then stalling both of them to death with Alomomola. Anyway, since I can't use that since Alomomola has already been used here's another option.


Musharna@Leftovers
Synchronize - Bold Nature
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpAtk
-Moonlight
-Protect
-Energy Ball
-Psychic


Linoone@Balloon
Pickup - Adamant Nature
252 Atk/252 Def/4 HP
-Belly Drum
-Extremespeed
-Seed Bomb
-Shadow Claw

Bring in Musharna and one of two things happen. If Golurk is in and uses Shadow Punch or Earthquake, let Musharna die, send in Linoone, and kill everything to death at +6 (Extremespeed does 196.91% min to Cinccino, Seed Bomb does 169.53% min to Golurk). If Cinccino is out or Golurk sticks to Ice Punch against Musharna, just gradually wear them down while regaining 62.5% for all attacks taken. This is possible since these are the damage calculations for Cinccino's Tail Slap, Cinccino's U-Turn, and Golurk's Ice Punch against Musharna:

Tail Slap: 39.22%-46.33% 3 Hits to KO
U-Turn: 29.82%-34.86% 3-4 Hits to KO
Ice Punch: 28.67-33.94% 3-4 Hits to KO

The standard spread for Linoone works too, but technically there's no reason for it in this specific situation.

[Raseri]

And that's the round! I don't feel like tallying points right now so I'll do that tomorrow, however I will post a new core for you guys to counter!

@ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge

@ Choice Specs
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Rest

Field Conditions: SR is up on your side of the field. 1 layer of Spikes is up on your side of the field.


Can you guys counter it? I promise to have points up within the next 24 hours, I just really don't feel like it right now!

[Xei Win Toh]

This sounds like fun!

I believe I can counter those two with Serperior. Which I guess means I'm reserving that one until I can make my final calculations and write up the post about it?

Edit: Is it assumed that no critical hits happen?

Edit 2@Amarillo: Hmm, well the first scenario (switching in on Torterra) does take 8-9 turns, depending on which attack Altaria uses later on. This is assuming no crits, always max damage roll from the opponent and min damage roll from me.
Switching in on Altaria KOs me on a max roll Draco Meteor (1/16 chance) but wins otherwise (6-7 turns depending on Altaria's attack) - is this acceptable for a counter?

[Amarillo]

1. I thought this died, just like me.

2. No crits, unless you're taking this matchup well into 5-7 turns + and your chances of a crit happening gets closer and closer to 1.

3. Champion Bronzor?

[CrashinBoomBang]

Kadabra (M) @ Focus Sash

Trait: Magic Guard

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Modest Nature

- Psychic

- Signal Beam

- Shadow Ball

- Hidden Power [Ice]

Kadabra can switch in on both Altaria and Torterra thanks to Focus Sash + Magic Guard and proceed to outspeed and OHKO both of them.

252SpAtk Kadabra (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Cloud Nine Altaria (Neutral): 104% - 123% (304 - 360 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252SpAtk Kadabra (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Torterra (Neutral): 109% - 130% (364 - 432 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

If a Modest nature isn't viable enough, Kadabra can win 76% of the time with a Timid nature:

252SpAtk Kadabra (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Cloud Nine Altaria (Neutral): 95% - 113% (280 - 332 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 76% chance to OHKO.

252SpAtk Kadabra (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Torterra (Neutral): 100% - 118% (332 - 392 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

[Xei Win Toh]

@CrashinBoomBang: Kadabra can't switch in on any attack from Torterra if it has set up once with Rock Polish, as it will be outsped and KO'd.



Serperior @ Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 144 HP / 144 Def / 220 SDef
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Giga Drain


This Serperior has exactly enough physical bulk to survive two Stone Edges from a +2 speed Torterra on the switch-in, and enough special bulk to survive anything but a max roll Draco Meteor (so 93,75% chance to survive) when switching in on Altaria. It has enough natural speed uninvested to outspeed Modest Altaria.

1. If it switches in on Torterra's Stone Edge, it will proceed to use Synthesis to regain health while Torterra wears itself down with Life Orb; after three uses of Synthesis, Serperior will be able to KO with HP Ice, and survive with enough HP to take Altaria's attack when it comes in after using another Synthesis (as it outspeeds Modest Altaria)
2. If it switches in on Altaria's Draco Meteor and lives (which it will 15 out of 16 times), it will use Synthesis once, then it can Calm Mind twice without being KO'd by further Meteors, and proceed to 1hko Altaria and the unboosted Torterra (which it also outspeeds) with HP Ice.
3. If it switches in on Altaria's Dragon Pulse, it alternates between Synthesis and Calm Mind twice, then the result is the same as if it switched in on Draco Meteor.

All those scenarios assume Torterra/Altaria don't switch, but the counter is (probably) still valid if they do switch between each other as it gives Serperior free turns to recover or set up. They also work assuming max damage from any attack EXCEPT switching in on Altaria's Draco Meteor, and also assuming min rolls on HP Ice's damage.


Thus this set (though its viability is perhaps questionable) should be able to counter the core 15/16 of the time, as the only thing it can't switch into is a max roll of Altaria's Draco Meteor. It is, however, vulnerable to crits, as it relies on taking and recovering from a few attacks before defeating the core. On the other hand, it also gets a little leeway between non-max rolls and the possibility of Stone Edge or Draco Meteor missing.

calculations

---

252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 144 HP/144 Def Serperior (+Def) : 34,56% - 40,67% (3-4 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 144 HP/220 SpDef Serperior: 64,22% - 75,54% (2 hits to KO)

252 -2 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 144 HP/220 SpDef Serperior: 32,11% - 37,92% (3-4 hits to KO)

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 144 HP/220 SpDef Serperior: 41,28% - 48,93% (3 hits to KO)

0 SpAtk Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 55,42% - 66,27% (2 hits to KO)

0 SpAtk Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 53,61% - 63,23% (2 hits to KO)

I hope this is a good enough format and explanation as to why and how this Pokémon counters the core.

[CrashinBoomBang]

Originally Posted by Fat Xei Win Toh

@CrashinBoomBang: Kadabra can't switch in on any attack from Torterra if it has set up once with Rock Polish, as it will be outsped and KO'd.

That is wrong. If Torterra uses Rock Polish on the switch that means my Focus Sash won't be broken as I switch in, thanks to Magic Guard. If it attacks me the turn after that, I take a hit thanks to my (still intact) Focus Sash and OHKO back with Hidden Power. If it just attacks instead, I still take a hit and outspeed and OHKO the turn after that. There is no way for the two to win. If you mean that Torterra already has a Rock Polish boost while I switch in, that is a condition not assumed to be in place for this. Everything starts at full health and +0 in every stat, so Torterra has to waste an actual turn to get to +2.

[Xei Win Toh]

Originally Posted by Fat CrashinBoomBang

That is wrong. If Torterra uses Rock Polish on the switch that means my Focus Sash won't be broken as I switch in, thanks to Magic Guard. If it attacks me the turn after that, I take a hit thanks to my (still intact) Focus Sash and OHKO back with Hidden Power. If it just attacks instead, I still take a hit and outspeed and OHKO the turn after that. There is no way for the two to win. If you mean that Torterra already has a Rock Polish boost while I switch in, that is a condition not assumed to be in place for this. Everything starts at full health and +0 in every stat, so Torterra has to waste an actual turn to get to +2.

My mistake. I did indeed assume Torterra already had a boost when Kadabra switched in. (i assumed the same for my Serperior, too. makes it slightly easier for it to win, too)

[Django]

Misdreavus (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 108 SDef / 120 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Will-O-Wisp

So, Misdreavus can switch in on any of Torterras or Altarias moves without being KO'd (including Stealth Rock).

252Atk Life Orb Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 248HP/32Def Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (Neutral): 73% - 86% (237 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Cloud Nine Altaria (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 248HP/108SpDef Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (Neutral): 52% - 62% (169 - 201 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Torterra:
If Torterra uses Wood Hammer, it brings itself into HP Ice KO range with Life Orb recoil + Wood Hammer recoil. If it attempts to use Stone Edge followed by Wood Hammer to avoid this, it gets burned and the only way it can KO Misdreavus is with two very high damage rolls (something like a 1/64 chance). After it gets burned Misdreavus should be somewhere around 5% HP and KO with HP Ice.

252Atk Life Orb Overgrow burned Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 248HP/32Def Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (Neutral): 37% - 43% (120 - 141 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252Atk Life Orb Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 248HP/32Def Eviolite Levitate Misdreavus (Neutral): 40% - 48% (132 - 156 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

0SpAtk Misdreavus (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Torterra (Neutral): 61% - 72% (204 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Altaria:
If switching into Altaria, Misdreavus can simply tank the first Draco Meteor, set up Calm Mind and then live the second one.

252SpAtk Choice Specs -2 Cloud Nine Altaria (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 248HP/108SpDef Eviolite +1 Levitate Misdreavus (Neutral): 17% - 21% (58 - 69 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.

After this it will be on really low HP and be able to use Pain Split, followed by HP Ice to KO Altaria.

If Altaria comes in after Torterra has simply used Wood Hammer, Misdreavus outspeeds and will be somewhere between 1 and 10% HP, being able to use Pain Split to survive Draco Meteor, use it again to survive the -2 Draco Meteor, then 2HKO with HP Ice.

0SpAtk Misdreavus (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 4HP/0SpDef Cloud Nine Altaria (Neutral): 58% - 69% (172 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

FLCL made the strong picture.

[FLCL]

Originally Posted by Fat Fun With Knives

Piloswine



252 HP/128 Def/124 SpDef/4 Atk

Thick Fat

Impish

Ice Shard
Earthquake
Icicle Crash
Stealth Rock (or other evil shenanigans)

Piloswine can easily come in on Altaria, taking about half of its health from Draco Meteor, and proceeding to OHKO it with Icicle Crash while tanking the -2 Meteor or hitting any switch-in hard. While it can't come in on Torterra unless it's setting up (confound these Wood Hammers), it can still OHKO it if it's in first (That's what the 4 attack EVs are for, min damage is exactly Torterra's HP), and can cripple Torterra heavily with Ice Shard if it has to come in on it.


I'll update this (Calcs and whatnot) later on today, I have a road trip. Sorry it's kinda short, fully expected to be ninja'd by a vengeful Zeb.

That's the problem, this Pokemon doesn't work.

[CrashinBoomBang]

@Django

Well, Torterra can simply Rock Polish on the switch, and turn the whole outcome into a 50/50 decision on the next turn; if it uses Wood Hammer while you Will-O-Wisp you lose, and if it uses Stone Edge while you use Hidden Power you lose, too. Seems pretty shaky to me.

[Django]

Well you see the thing about this is, Misdreavus will just ball hard and predict correctly.

CLOSE ENOUGH

[Annoyer]

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
EVs : 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 Def
Calm Nature
Trait : Own Tempo

- Wish
- Protect
- Ice Beam
- Toxic / Heal Bell / Dragon Tail / Body Slam / w/e

Tangela @ Eviolite
EVs : 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
Trait : Regenerator

- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Ice

Tangela can take on Torterra with no problem and it can retaliate with HP Ice or just recover stall with Synthesis or Regenerator. Lickilicky can take on Altaria very easily and just Wish+Protect until it's at a good amount of health to start Ice Beaming. That's about it with this core. Just switch when necessary and recover when low on health, it's pretty easy.

Here is a joke core.

...

---

COTTONEE @ Eviolite
EVs : 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
Bold Nature
Trait : Prankster

- Memento
- Stun Spore
- Substitute
- Tailwind



Lickilicky @ Choice Scarf
EVs : 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Modest Nature
Trait : Own Tempo

- Ice Beam
- Explosion
- Surf
- Hyper Beam

If Torterra is in, bring in Cottonee. You can either Memento, Tailwind or Stun Spore. After Cottonee dies, Lickilicky will either outspeed or can take a hit due to the drops from Memento. With a Modest Nature and a Choice Scarf, Lickilicky can outspeed both Altaria and Torterra and OHKO both with Ice Beam. If Altaria is in, just fodder Cottonee. Then, just KO everything with Scarf Lickilicky Ice Beam. Either way, Scarf Lickilicky is victorious. :)

Will be posting some calcs for both cores once I get back on my other computer.

[FLCL]

Illumise @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Encore
- Wish
- U-turn
- Rain Dance


Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Giga Drain
- Rain Dance

...

---

252 SpAtk Ludicolo Ice Beam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 112.39% - 132.93%
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Ludicolo Ice Beam vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 107.22% - 126.46%
Guaranteed OHKO

Illumise is there simply to get Ludicolo in safely, who outruns and OHKO's both Pokemon with Ice Beam. If Torterra tries to Rock Polish, Illumise can Encore it and U-Turn to Ludicolo.