Crisis Core Revival! Round Five - Page 3

ChaoticaMortis · Aug 8th, 2012, 11:43:59 AM

But you're supposed to counter THE CORE. Heavily crippling one Pokemon does not counter THE CORE.

**FLCL** · Aug 8th, 2012, 11:44:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Fun With Knives

Other than that it completely shuts down the core. Therefore it almost always works, and even if it gets KOed by Torterra, Torterra is at best heavily crippled if not knocked out after the recoil of two Life Orb Wood Hammers and a STAB Ice Shard.

It doesn't matter, perfect prediction is always assumed for your opponent. If you can't KO both Pokemon while being alive at the end then it doesn't work.

252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252 HP/128 Def Eviolite Piloswine (+Def) : 77.23% - 91.34%
Entry hazards damage: 100
After entry hazards: 412 - 469 (101.98% - 116.09%)
Guaranteed OHKO

Django · Aug 8th, 2012, 11:45:29 AM

It does not beat the core.

252Atk Life Orb Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 68% - 80% (276 - 326 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

With Stealth Rock and Spikes, you cannot switch in. There really isn't any way to argue against this lol.

ChaoticaMortis · Aug 8th, 2012, 11:47:15 AM

My previous idea was Rotom-F, which only worked about 50% of the time:

...

Rotom-F

Rotom-F @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
EV's: 8 HP / 252 SpAtk / 248 Spe
-Blizzard
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Trick

Rotom-F is a 'mon that I already regularly run that I would be comfortable sending out against this core, so that's who I'm going with. Sadly, he's outright OHKO'd by Torterra's Stone Edge and Wood Hammer, as well as Altaria's Draco Meteor. The good thing is that he can come in on Torterra's Rock Polish or Earthquake, as well as Altaria's Dragon Pulse, HP Ground, or Rest and proceed to outspeed and OHKO both of them with Blizzard. A shaky counter, but a counter nonetheless.

Calcs:
Torterra:

252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 8 HP/0 Def Rotom-F: 96.3% - 113.58%
Entry hazards damage: 60
After entry hazards: 294 - 336 (120.99% - 138.27%)
Guaranteed OHKO
Switching into Wood Hammer is a bad idea...

252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 8 HP/0 Def Rotom-F: 107% - 125.93%
Entry hazards damage: 60
After entry hazards: 320 - 366 (131.69% - 150.62%)
Guaranteed OHKO
As is Stone Edge.

However, getting in on Rock Polish or Earthquake means you can take Torterra down easily.

252 SpAtk Rotom-F Blizzard vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 234.94% - 276.51%
Guaranteed OHKO

Altaria:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 8 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-F: 97.53% - 114.81%
Entry hazards damage: 60
After entry hazards: 297 - 339 (122.22% - 139.51%)
Guaranteed OHKO
So you can't come in on Draco Meteor, but...

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 8 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-F: 62.96% - 74.07%
Entry hazards damage: 60
After entry hazards: 213 - 240 (87.65% - 98.77%)
2 hits to KO
You have just enough bulk to switch into Dragon Pulse.

252 SpAtk Rotom-F Blizzard vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 222.68% - 263.92%
Guaranteed OHKO

So Rotom-F has a decent shot at beating the core, although it's only going to work about 50% of the time (probably less as I don't see Altaria using Rest or Dragon Pulse very often). I think Kadabra has been the best idea, although FLCL's Rain core looked like it would work as well. Anyone that wanted a standard 'mon could easily just pick up Fridge-tom though.

I'd like to add two separate entries at this point: one that's a little gimmicky, and one that's competitively viable.

First, the one that I think is a little gimmicky, which would be Abra. Cbb suggested it to me on IRC, and it looks like it works exactly the same as Kadabra does. With a Modest nature, Abra hits just as hard as Timid Kadabra does, and by extension can still OHKO both members of the core. Magic Guard prevents entry hazard damage and Focus Sash ensures that it will survive at least one hit (in the case of Torterra using Rock Polish to speed up and hit Abra).

Abra

Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Modest Nature
EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
-Hidden Power Ice
-Psychic
-Shadow Ball
-Disable (Why am I listing moves other than HP Ice?)

Calcs:

252 SpAtk Abra (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 100% - 118.07%
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Abra (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 96.22% - 114.09%
81.25% chance to OHKO

Abra can easily switch into any attack that either 'mon can fire off, after which it can outspeed both and OHKO both. Altaria will survive 18.75% of the time, but that's about as often as Draco Meteor and Stone Edge will miss, so I don't see a problem with that. I don't really want to take full credit for this, as it was suggested to me by someone else and also kind of rips off Kadabra, so I'd also like to give an original suggestion, which I will edit in shortly.

Shovel · Aug 8th, 2012, 11:51:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

It doesn't matter, perfect prediction is always assumed for your opponent.

I would like to say to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Django

Well you see the thing about this is, Misdreavus will just ball hard and predict correctly.

CLOSE ENOUGH

BROStime · Aug 8th, 2012, 11:53:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ChaoticaMortis

Might as well reserve Rotom-F, I think I can make a case for it.

Damn I just thought about him :/

Fun With Knives · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:08:09 PM

:|

Note to self: Torterra has a Life Orb.

Okay, you win.

NuclearMedicineT · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:20:01 PM

Gonna go lazy FLCL style.

Delibird @ Focus Band
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Aerial Ace
- Ice Punch
- Rapid Spin

The master of coming in and dying. Delibird has the important, but not very honorable role of being death fodder. Didn't really matter who I put here but Delibird has a chance of being useful if he were to survive due to Focus Band, Stone Miss or whatever. He can outspeed both opposing pokes to either hit them hard (I dunno if it kills or not) or Rapid Spin the hazards away for:

Sneasel @ Choice Band
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Def / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Ice Punch
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick
- Pursuit

After Deli goes down it is green for Sneasel to come in. And what's Champion Sneasel's job? To OHKO both of the opposing pokes before they even can move with ICE SHARD.

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 4 HP/0 Def Torterra: 101,2% - 119,28% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0 HP/4 Def Altaria: 129,9% - 154,64% (Guaranteed OHKO)

So yeah that's pretty much it. Sack n' sweep. If Torterra were to get a Rock Polish up it wouldn't matter due to the priority with Ice Shard.

ChaoticaMortis · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:27:30 PM

Posting here to say I updated my earlier post with Rotom-F.

I would also like to say that any counter involving Delibird is fucking hilarious.

BROStime · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:35:15 PM

Charizard @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

Charizard is a great counter to this core because, he can both outspeed and OHKO them both. Charizard can also come in on Wood Hammer and EQ from Torterra and OHKO with either HP Ice or Fire Blast, it can also come in on HP Ground from Altaria and OHKO with HP Ice (93,75%) at the time, also it is a clean OHKO after SR.

252 SAtk Choice Scarf Charizard (+SAtk) HP Ice vs 0 HP/4 SDef Altaria: 97,59% - 115,46% OHKO (93,75%) (Guaranteed OHKO with SR)

252 SAtk Choice Scarf Charizard (+SAtk) HP Ice vs 4 HP/0 Def Torterra: 102,41% - 121,69% OHKO (100%) (Guaranteed OHKO)

ChaoticaMortis · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:40:35 PM

Charizard works worse than Fridge-Tom, and that was already a lousy idea.

252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Charizard: 227.61% - 266.67%
Entry hazards damage: 148
After entry hazards: 824 - 940 (277.44% - 316.5%)
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 96.97% - 114.14%
Entry hazards damage: 148
After entry hazards: 436 - 487 (146.8% - 163.97%)
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 62.63% - 73.74%
Entry hazards damage: 148
After entry hazards: 334 - 367 (112.46% - 123.57%)
Guaranteed OHKO

Besides that, you have to be able to switch attacks with Charizard to beat them both, which is impossible (edit: okay, this point was wrong).

Fun With Knives · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:47:52 PM

Reserving Meganium and Togetic.

Meganium@Leftovers

Overgrow

Bold

252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA

Synthesis
Aromatherapy
Giga Drain
HP Ice

Togetic@Eviolite

Serene Grace or Super Luck

Calm

252 HP/8 Def/252 SpD

Roost
Heal Bell/Nasty Plot
Tri Attack/Toxic/Thunder Wave
HP Ice

Meganium does most of the actual work for this counter. It can come in easily on anything Torterra throws at it, taking a max of 35.71% from Stone Edge, shrug it and the entry hazards off with Synthesis, and then go nuts with Hidden Power Ice. It fares reasonably well against Altaria, but can't take a Draco Meteor on the switch-in, the sole reason Togetic is part of this set. Togetic's job, as is complemented by its durability, is to come in on Draco Meteor, heal, and either attack or switch back to Meganium if Torterra comes in. Togetic takes a max of 44.4% from the first Draco Meteor, and therefore can easily tank out the second bar a crit.

BROStime · Aug 8th, 2012, 12:50:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ChaoticaMortis

Charizard works worse than Fridge-Tom, and that was already a lousy idea.

252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Charizard: 227.61% - 266.67%
Entry hazards damage: 148
After entry hazards: 824 - 940 (277.44% - 316.5%)
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 96.97% - 114.14%
Entry hazards damage: 148
After entry hazards: 436 - 487 (146.8% - 163.97%)
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 62.63% - 73.74%
Entry hazards damage: 148
After entry hazards: 334 - 367 (112.46% - 123.57%)
Guaranteed OHKO

Besides that, you have to be able to switch attacks with Charizard to beat them both, which is impossible.

I already know this. To take Charizard out the opponent has to predict it too come in, and Charizard dont need too switch attacks as it can OHKO them bot after rocks is up wiht HP Ice.

ChaoticaMortis · Aug 8th, 2012, 1:00:12 PM

So basically it has a lower chance of surviving a switch into Altaria and a higher chance of surviving a switch into Torterra than Rotom-F has. My bad. Both aren't looking very great though.

EDIT: Also, I don't think SR is up on the opponent's side of the field, just your side.

BROStime · Aug 8th, 2012, 1:04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ChaoticaMortis

So basically it has a lower chance of surviving a switch into Altaria and a higher chance of surviving a switch into Torterra than Rotom-F has. My bad. Both aren't looking very great though.

EDIT: Also, I don't think SR is up on the opponent's side of the field, just your side.

I forgot to calc it and put them in the description. Yeah both wouldnt be too great actually as they cant counter all 8 attacks.

breh · Aug 8th, 2012, 1:50:25 PM

Since I'm far too lazy to figure out anything (and Meganium is taken), I'll go with Bronzor.

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Bold Nature
252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Calm Mind
-Hidden Power Ice

Torterra doesn't threaten Bronzor very much at all (has a chance at 4HKO; does hit harder when in Overgrow but it'll kill itself before you due to LO recoil and recoil) and Altaria's Draco Meteor is a 4HKO. Hidden Power Ice doesn't hit very hard, but does OHKO Altaria once fully boosted (meaning it can't stall out Bronzor with Rest).

Yonko7 · Aug 8th, 2012, 3:07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Raseri

And that's the round! I don't feel like tallying points right now so I'll do that tomorrow, however I will post a new core for you guys to counter!

@ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge

@ Choice Specs
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Rest

Field Conditions: SR is up on your side of the field. 1 layer of Spikes is up on your side of the field.

Can you guys counter it? I promise to have points up within the next 24 hours, I just really don't feel like it right now!

Im assuming they have 252 speed, not 252 special defense. Reserving lickilicky and someone else.

BROStime · Aug 8th, 2012, 3:35:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Yonko7

Im assuming they have 252 speed, not 252 special defense. Reserving lickilicky and someone else.

252 Spd is the same as Speed.

drakon136 · Aug 8th, 2012, 4:30:31 PM

Meganium is taken? No problem! I'm reserving Bayleef.

Bayleef @ Eviolite
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Synthesis
- Aromatherapy
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Bayleef is incredibly bulky with Eviolite, and it takes little damage from everything Torterra and Altaria can throw at it, and either stall them out with Synthesis and Toxic or kill them quickly with Hidden Power Ice. Calcs against Bayleef (using Honko's calculator):

Draco Meteor: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
Stone Edge: 111-131 (34.25 - 40.43%) -- 21.48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

And you may wish to know how much damage Hidden Power Ice does to these two.

vs Altaria: Hidden Power Ice: 136-160 (46.73 - 54.98%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO
vs Torterra: Hidden Power Ice: 160-192 (48.19 - 57.83%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO

As you can see, Bayleef can quickly KO both of these pokemon and recover from any damage taken with Synthesis.

Yonko7 · Aug 8th, 2012, 4:33:38 PM

Speed is usually written as Spe, Special Def. is SpD, but whatever it was a mistake.

***
*Used Honko's Damage Calc*

I saw that Lickilicky was taken so I'll do Lickitung! and Weezing...

Lickitung@Eviolite
Trait: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Wish
-Protect
-Ice Beam
-Knock Off

Weezing@Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Will-O-Wisp
-Pain Split
-Flamethrower
-Sludge Bomb

Lickitung can tank Altaria's attacks all day, and night if needed. A Draco Meteor does less than 50%, with a -2 Draco Meteor doing significantly less. iirc, Dragon Pulse does basically 29%. To retaliate, Lickitung can use Ice Beam , depending on the user's prediction ~~and to troll~~. Or heal back to health with Wish, and Protect.

Calcs with Lickitung

Weezing's job is to tank hits from Torterra and euthanize it.

Calcs with Weezing

That's all

Lady Shinki · Aug 8th, 2012, 5:25:05 PM

Miltank @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 SpDef/4 Spe
Jolly / Sap Sipper

Milk Drink
Toxic
Protect
Return

Calcs:

Torterra's LO Earthquake: (50.25% - 59.39%)
Altaria's Draco Meteor: (62.69% - 74.11%)
Altaria's Dragon Pulse: (40.61% - 47.97%)

Return vs. Torterra: (26.59% - 31.72%) (4hko but you'll just LO/toxic stall anyway)
Return vs. Altaria: (34.36% - 40.55%) (guaranteed 3hko)

With the Jolly nature and 4 EVs, miltank outspeeds both altaria and torterra (before boosting). If Torterra uses Rock Polish on the switch-in, it can still be stalled out because Torterra's strongest attack is Earthquake, which will not do enough to bypass milk drink+protect with lefties. Miltank can outspeed Altaria and alternate between Milk Drink+Protect to recover health while using Return on moves that won't KO, like -2 Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Toxic Torterra on a move that won't ko you and stall it (or LO recoil stall if it uses Rock Polish first), hit altaria with return until it dies. Barring crits, this should work as a counter.

Fun With Knives · Aug 8th, 2012, 7:35:50 PM

After Stealth Rock and Spikes, Torterra outspeeds and 2HKOs Bayleef on a switch-in.

I had the same problem with Meganium not being able to come in on Draco Meteor, that's why I have Togetic as well.

drakon136 · Aug 8th, 2012, 7:55:13 PM

Erm, Stone Edge is only a 3HKO with Stealth Rock and Spikes, and Bayleef can heal itself with Synthesis.

Fun With Knives · Aug 8th, 2012, 8:19:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat drakon136

Erm, Stone Edge is only a 3HKO with Stealth Rock and Spikes, and Bayleef can heal itself with Synthesis.

messed up my calcs

using bayleef's base stats and togetic's typing

:|

melvni · Aug 9th, 2012, 12:08:56 AM

On the same note as those suggesting Bayleef and Lickitung...

Servine@Eviolite
252 HP / 118 SpDef / 140 Spe
Ability - Overgrow
Nature - Timid
~Synthesis
~Knock Off
~Hidden Power Ice
~Taunt

Servine enters at 244 HP after 80 hazard damage
Life Orb Stone Edge: 137 damage max
Stone Edge: 106 damage max
Specs Draco Meteor: 217 damage max
Draco Meteor: 145 damage max
-2 Specs Draco Meteor: 109 damage max
-2 Draco Meteor: 73 damage max
-4 Specs Draco Meteor: 73 damage max
-4 Draco Meteor: 49 damage max
Specs Dragon Pulse: 141 damage max
Dragon Pulse: 94 damage max
Synthesis restores 162 HP

If Servine Enters on Stone Edge:

Life Orb Stone Edge + Servine uses Knock Off + Stone Edge = 1 HP remaining min
From 1 HP min…
-Synthesis + Stone Edge = 57 HP remaining min, if it continues to spam Stone Edge, this must be done two more times (at which point you will be at 169 HP min) to get Torterra into KO range with HP Ice due to Knock Off and Life Orb recoil. Using HP Ice after the second time you use Synthesis won’t work because you’ll be left at 7 HP (inside Draco’s KO range even after synthesis) and Torterra may die from Life Orb recoil after it uses its fifth Stone Edge depending on the HP Ice damage roll. You need to be at more than 55 HP to be safe when Altaria switches in.
-Synthesis + Altaria switch in = 163 HP min, enough to Knock Off Altaria’s Specs and survive a Draco Meteor with 18 HP remaining min

Life Orb Stone Edge + Servine uses Knock Off + Altaria switches in + Synthesis + Specs Draco Meteor = 124 HP min, enough to Knock Off Specs, survive a -2 Draco Meteor, and use Synthesis (which leaves 164 HP min even if Altaria launches a -4 Draco Meteor)

If Servine Enters on Rock Polish:

The situation plays out almost the same as entering on Stone Edge, except Torterra is faster. Knock Off turn one, then Spam Synthesis till you’ve ensured you’ll have more than 55 HP when Altaria switches in.

If Servine enters on Draco Meteor:

Specs Draco Meteor + Synthesis + -2 Specs Draco Meteor + Servine uses Knock Off + -4 Draco Meteor or Torterra switch in = 31 HP min remaining (at which point Synthesis gets you very, very safely out of KO range)

Specs Draco Meteor + Synthesis + Torterra switches in = 189 HP remaining, at which the Torterra scenarios play out except you start with more HP and win even easier

If Servine enters on Dragon Pulse:

Specs Dragon Pulse + Servine uses Knock Off + Dragon Pulse = 9 HP remaining min (enough to survive an unboosted Draco Meteor after a Synthesis)
Specs Dragon Pulse + Servine uses Knock Off + Torterra switches in = 103 HP remaining min (enough to survive a Stone Edge after a Synthesis with 159 HP remaining min)

-------------------
Any time you have a chance, just spam HP Ice, since it at worst three hit KO’s both of them and Torterra has no recovery so eventually Torterra will die and Altaria won’t be able to Rest/Natural Cure stall (though Taunt helps prevent that as well to help ensure both are dead before you run out of Synthesis's).

Edit: Forgot to mention the speed and nature ensure Servine outspeeds Altaria by one point.

Aug 8th, 2012, 11:45:29 AM	#53
Django Hear me Roar Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,670	It does not beat the core. 252Atk Life Orb Overgrow Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 68% - 80% (276 - 326 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. With Stealth Rock and Spikes, you cannot switch in. There really isn't any way to argue against this lol. __________________

Aug 8th, 2012, 11:47:15 AM	#54
ChaoticaMortis Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 519 Texas	My previous idea was Rotom-F, which only worked about 50% of the time: ... Rotom-F Rotom-F @ Choice Scarf Timid Nature EV's: 8 HP / 252 SpAtk / 248 Spe -Blizzard -Thunderbolt -Volt Switch -Trick Rotom-F is a 'mon that I already regularly run that I would be comfortable sending out against this core, so that's who I'm going with. Sadly, he's outright OHKO'd by Torterra's Stone Edge and Wood Hammer, as well as Altaria's Draco Meteor. The good thing is that he can come in on Torterra's Rock Polish or Earthquake, as well as Altaria's Dragon Pulse, HP Ground, or Rest and proceed to outspeed and OHKO both of them with Blizzard. A shaky counter, but a counter nonetheless. Calcs: Torterra: 252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Wood Hammer vs 8 HP/0 Def Rotom-F: 96.3% - 113.58% Entry hazards damage: 60 After entry hazards: 294 - 336 (120.99% - 138.27%) Guaranteed OHKO Switching into Wood Hammer is a bad idea... 252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 8 HP/0 Def Rotom-F: 107% - 125.93% Entry hazards damage: 60 After entry hazards: 320 - 366 (131.69% - 150.62%) Guaranteed OHKO As is Stone Edge. However, getting in on Rock Polish or Earthquake means you can take Torterra down easily. 252 SpAtk Rotom-F Blizzard vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 234.94% - 276.51% Guaranteed OHKO Altaria: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 8 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-F: 97.53% - 114.81% Entry hazards damage: 60 After entry hazards: 297 - 339 (122.22% - 139.51%) Guaranteed OHKO So you can't come in on Draco Meteor, but... 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 8 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-F: 62.96% - 74.07% Entry hazards damage: 60 After entry hazards: 213 - 240 (87.65% - 98.77%) 2 hits to KO You have just enough bulk to switch into Dragon Pulse. 252 SpAtk Rotom-F Blizzard vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 222.68% - 263.92% Guaranteed OHKO So Rotom-F has a decent shot at beating the core, although it's only going to work about 50% of the time (probably less as I don't see Altaria using Rest or Dragon Pulse very often). I think Kadabra has been the best idea, although FLCL's Rain core looked like it would work as well. Anyone that wanted a standard 'mon could easily just pick up Fridge-tom though. I'd like to add two separate entries at this point: one that's a little gimmicky, and one that's competitively viable. First, the one that I think is a little gimmicky, which would be Abra. Cbb suggested it to me on IRC, and it looks like it works exactly the same as Kadabra does. With a Modest nature, Abra hits just as hard as Timid Kadabra does, and by extension can still OHKO both members of the core. Magic Guard prevents entry hazard damage and Focus Sash ensures that it will survive at least one hit (in the case of Torterra using Rock Polish to speed up and hit Abra). Abra Abra @ Focus Sash Ability: Magic Guard Modest Nature EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe -Hidden Power Ice -Psychic -Shadow Ball -Disable (Why am I listing moves other than HP Ice?) Calcs: 252 SpAtk Abra (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Torterra: 100% - 118.07% Guaranteed OHKO 252 SpAtk Abra (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Altaria: 96.22% - 114.09% 81.25% chance to OHKO Abra can easily switch into any attack that either 'mon can fire off, after which it can outspeed both and OHKO both. Altaria will survive 18.75% of the time, but that's about as often as Draco Meteor and Stone Edge will miss, so I don't see a problem with that. I don't really want to take full credit for this, as it was suggested to me by someone else and also kind of rips off Kadabra, so I'd also like to give an original suggestion, which I will edit in shortly. Last edited by ChaoticaMortis; Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:23:27 PM.

Aug 8th, 2012, 12:08:09 PM	#57
Fun With Knives Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 68	:\| Note to self: Torterra has a Life Orb. Okay, you win. __________________ God Haunter: I AM YOUR LORD AND OVERLORD Fun With Knives: I, for one, welcome our poser overlord God Haunter was muted by haunter. ~haunter: lol

Aug 8th, 2012, 12:40:35 PM	#61
ChaoticaMortis Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 519 Texas	Charizard works worse than Fridge-Tom, and that was already a lousy idea. 252 Atk Life Orb Torterra (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Charizard: 227.61% - 266.67% Entry hazards damage: 148 After entry hazards: 824 - 940 (277.44% - 316.5%) Guaranteed OHKO 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Draco Meteor vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 96.97% - 114.14% Entry hazards damage: 148 After entry hazards: 436 - 487 (146.8% - 163.97%) Guaranteed OHKO 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Altaria (+SpAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Charizard: 62.63% - 73.74% Entry hazards damage: 148 After entry hazards: 334 - 367 (112.46% - 123.57%) Guaranteed OHKO Besides that, you have to be able to switch attacks with Charizard to beat them both, which is impossible (edit: okay, this point was wrong). Last edited by ChaoticaMortis; Aug 8th, 2012 at 12:54:36 PM.

Aug 8th, 2012, 12:47:52 PM	#62
Fun With Knives Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 68	Reserving Meganium and Togetic. Meganium@Leftovers Overgrow Bold 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA Synthesis Aromatherapy Giga Drain HP Ice Togetic@Eviolite Serene Grace or Super Luck Calm 252 HP/8 Def/252 SpD Roost Heal Bell/Nasty Plot Tri Attack/Toxic/Thunder Wave HP Ice Meganium does most of the actual work for this counter. It can come in easily on anything Torterra throws at it, taking a max of 35.71% from Stone Edge, shrug it and the entry hazards off with Synthesis, and then go nuts with Hidden Power Ice. It fares reasonably well against Altaria, but can't take a Draco Meteor on the switch-in, the sole reason Togetic is part of this set. Togetic's job, as is complemented by its durability, is to come in on Draco Meteor, heal, and either attack or switch back to Meganium if Torterra comes in. Togetic takes a max of 44.4% from the first Draco Meteor, and therefore can easily tank out the second bar a crit. __________________ God Haunter: I AM YOUR LORD AND OVERLORD Fun With Knives: I, for one, welcome our poser overlord God Haunter was muted by haunter. ~haunter: lol Last edited by Fun With Knives; Aug 8th, 2012 at 7:54:39 PM.

Aug 8th, 2012, 11:43:59 AM	#51
ChaoticaMortis Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 519 Texas	But you're supposed to counter THE CORE. Heavily crippling one Pokemon does not counter THE CORE.

Aug 8th, 2012, 12:20:01 PM	#58
NuclearMedicineT Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 29 Sweden	Gonna go lazy FLCL style. Delibird @ Focus Band Trait: Hustle EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def Jolly Nature - Ice Shard - Aerial Ace - Ice Punch - Rapid Spin The master of coming in and dying. Delibird has the important, but not very honorable role of being death fodder. Didn't really matter who I put here but Delibird has a chance of being useful if he were to survive due to Focus Band, Stone Miss or whatever. He can outspeed both opposing pokes to either hit them hard (I dunno if it kills or not) or Rapid Spin the hazards away for: Sneasel @ Choice Band Trait: Inner Focus EVs: 252 Spd / 4 Def / 252 Atk Adamant Nature - Ice Punch - Ice Shard - Low Kick - Pursuit After Deli goes down it is green for Sneasel to come in. And what's Champion Sneasel's job? To OHKO both of the opposing pokes before they even can move with ICE SHARD. 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 4 HP/0 Def Torterra: 101,2% - 119,28% (Guaranteed OHKO) 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0 HP/4 Def Altaria: 129,9% - 154,64% (Guaranteed OHKO) So yeah that's pretty much it. Sack n' sweep. If Torterra were to get a Rock Polish up it wouldn't matter due to the priority with Ice Shard.

Aug 8th, 2012, 12:27:30 PM	#59
ChaoticaMortis Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 519 Texas	Posting here to say I updated my earlier post with Rotom-F. I would also like to say that any counter involving Delibird is fucking hilarious.

Aug 8th, 2012, 12:35:15 PM	#60
BROStime Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 348 First they ignore you, then laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.	Charizard @ Choice Scarf Trait: Blaze EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Fire Blast - Air Slash - Hidden Power [Ice] - Focus Blast Charizard is a great counter to this core because, he can both outspeed and OHKO them both. Charizard can also come in on Wood Hammer and EQ from Torterra and OHKO with either HP Ice or Fire Blast, it can also come in on HP Ground from Altaria and OHKO with HP Ice (93,75%) at the time, also it is a clean OHKO after SR. 252 SAtk Choice Scarf Charizard (+SAtk) HP Ice vs 0 HP/4 SDef Altaria: 97,59% - 115,46% OHKO (93,75%) (Guaranteed OHKO with SR) 252 SAtk Choice Scarf Charizard (+SAtk) HP Ice vs 4 HP/0 Def Torterra: 102,41% - 121,69% OHKO (100%) (Guaranteed OHKO)

Aug 8th, 2012, 1:00:12 PM	#64
ChaoticaMortis Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 519 Texas	So basically it has a lower chance of surviving a switch into Altaria and a higher chance of surviving a switch into Torterra than Rotom-F has. My bad. Both aren't looking very great though. EDIT: Also, I don't think SR is up on the opponent's side of the field, just your side.

Aug 8th, 2012, 1:50:25 PM	#66
breh Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,941	Since I'm far too lazy to figure out anything (and Meganium is taken), I'll go with Bronzor. Bronzor @ Eviolite Bold Nature 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD -Rest -Sleep Talk -Calm Mind -Hidden Power Ice Torterra doesn't threaten Bronzor very much at all (has a chance at 4HKO; does hit harder when in Overgrow but it'll kill itself before you due to LO recoil and recoil) and Altaria's Draco Meteor is a 4HKO. Hidden Power Ice doesn't hit very hard, but does OHKO Altaria once fully boosted (meaning it can't stall out Bronzor with Rest). __________________ VGC Regionals: VGC11 Top 16, VGC12 12th Place

Aug 8th, 2012, 4:30:31 PM	#69
drakon136 Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 145 Canadia	Meganium is taken? No problem! I'm reserving Bayleef. Bayleef @ Eviolite Trait: Overgrow EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk Calm Nature - Synthesis - Aromatherapy - Toxic - Hidden Power [Ice] Bayleef is incredibly bulky with Eviolite, and it takes little damage from everything Torterra and Altaria can throw at it, and either stall them out with Synthesis and Toxic or kill them quickly with Hidden Power Ice. Calcs against Bayleef (using Honko's calculator): Draco Meteor: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes Stone Edge: 111-131 (34.25 - 40.43%) -- 21.48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes And you may wish to know how much damage Hidden Power Ice does to these two. vs Altaria: Hidden Power Ice: 136-160 (46.73 - 54.98%) -- 60.16% chance to 2HKO vs Torterra: Hidden Power Ice: 160-192 (48.19 - 57.83%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO As you can see, Bayleef can quickly KO both of these pokemon and recover from any damage taken with Synthesis. __________________ Resident Type-MOON Fan Last edited by drakon136; Aug 9th, 2012 at 2:41:44 PM. Reason: Finished!

Aug 8th, 2012, 4:33:38 PM	#70
Yonko7 You don’t have to forgive me. No matter what you decide from now on, I will love you forever. Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 584 Mentor	Speed is usually written as Spe, Special Def. is SpD, but whatever it was a mistake. *** Used Honko's Damage Calc I saw that Lickilicky was taken so I'll do Lickitung! and Weezing... Lickitung@Eviolite Trait: Own Tempo EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD Nature: Calm -Wish -Protect -Ice Beam -Knock Off Weezing@Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD -Will-O-Wisp -Pain Split -Flamethrower -Sludge Bomb Lickitung can tank Altaria's attacks all day, and night if needed. A Draco Meteor does less than 50%, with a -2 Draco Meteor doing significantly less. iirc, Dragon Pulse does basically 29%. To retaliate, Lickitung can use Ice Beam , depending on the user's prediction ~~and to troll~~. Or heal back to health with Wish, and Protect. Calcs with Lickitung Assuming Lickitung switches-in: Draco Meteor: 144-171 (37.5 - 44.53%) -- [98.05% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes] A -2 does: Draco Meteor: 73-87 (19.01 - 22.65%) Dragon Pulse does: Dragon Pulse: 24.21 - 28.9% So, after the first turn Lickitung has (assuming max damage roll): 100-12.5-12.5-44.53 = 30.47% Then a subsequent Draco Meteor does: 30.47-22.65 = 7.82% , while this happens Lickitung uses Wish, and then Protect next turn. If the opponent goes to Torterra predicting Protect, then go to Weezing. If your feeling spunky -anytime- Lickitung can use Ice Beam to 2KO Altaria or Torterra, or use Knock Off to rid of LO or CS. Ice Beam vs Altaria: 176-208 (60.48 - 71.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Ice Beam vs Torterra : 208-248 (62.65 - 74.69%) -- " " However, the downside is that Lickitung is 2KOed by Torterra's STABs. However, if LO is smacked off then, Torterra does slightly less. With LO, Wood Hammer: 210-247 (54.68 - 64.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes Without LO, Wood Hammer: 160-190 (41.66 - 49.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes Weezing's job is to tank hits from Torterra and euthanize it. Calcs with Weezing With LO, Stone Edge: 88-104 (26.34 - 31.13%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock Without LO, Stone Edge: 68-80 (20.35 - 23.95%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock Doesn't really matter if Torterra has a RP or not, but it does get two hits before Weezing can do anything. Weezing in revenge can either use Will-O-Wisp, Flamethrower, or Pain Split (Depending on the relative HPs). Flamethrower vs Torterra: 138-164 (41.56 - 49.39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Sludge Bomb vs Torterra: 29.21 - 34.63% Now what are the chances that Torterra came in at 100%, well I don't either, but Torterra could have been hit by Ice Beam if Lickitung was feeling spunky. Now what if the opponent knows your gonna use Flamethower and goes to Altaria well fear not, because you can use Sludge Bomb if you think they are. In addition, as seen above, Sludge Bomb does decent damage to Torterra. Sludge Bomb vs Altaria: 82-97 (24.18 - 28.61%) Flamethrower vs Altaria: 8.55 - 10.02% The downside is that Altaria rapes Weezing. Draco Meteor with CS: 334-394 (100 - 117.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO Draco Meteor without CS: 223-264 (66.76 - 79.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock That's all __________________ ✓\| Back in Action \|VM for a GP Stamp \| VM for a RU rate\| Last edited by Yonko7; Aug 8th, 2012 at 5:02:47 PM.

Aug 8th, 2012, 5:25:05 PM	#71
Lady Shinki Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 408	Miltank @ Leftovers 252 HP/252 SpDef/4 Spe Jolly / Sap Sipper Milk Drink Toxic Protect Return Calcs: Torterra's LO Earthquake: (50.25% - 59.39%) Altaria's Draco Meteor: (62.69% - 74.11%) Altaria's Dragon Pulse: (40.61% - 47.97%) Return vs. Torterra: (26.59% - 31.72%) (4hko but you'll just LO/toxic stall anyway) Return vs. Altaria: (34.36% - 40.55%) (guaranteed 3hko) With the Jolly nature and 4 EVs, miltank outspeeds both altaria and torterra (before boosting). If Torterra uses Rock Polish on the switch-in, it can still be stalled out because Torterra's strongest attack is Earthquake, which will not do enough to bypass milk drink+protect with lefties. Miltank can outspeed Altaria and alternate between Milk Drink+Protect to recover health while using Return on moves that won't KO, like -2 Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Toxic Torterra on a move that won't ko you and stall it (or LO recoil stall if it uses Rock Polish first), hit altaria with return until it dies. Barring crits, this should work as a counter. Last edited by Lady Shinki; Aug 8th, 2012 at 5:39:11 PM.

Aug 8th, 2012, 7:35:50 PM	#72
Fun With Knives Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 68	After Stealth Rock and Spikes, Torterra outspeeds and 2HKOs Bayleef on a switch-in. I had the same problem with Meganium not being able to come in on Draco Meteor, that's why I have Togetic as well. __________________ God Haunter: I AM YOUR LORD AND OVERLORD Fun With Knives: I, for one, welcome our poser overlord God Haunter was muted by haunter. ~haunter: lol

Aug 8th, 2012, 7:55:13 PM	#73
drakon136 Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 145 Canadia	Erm, Stone Edge is only a 3HKO with Stealth Rock and Spikes, and Bayleef can heal itself with Synthesis. __________________ Resident Type-MOON Fan

Aug 9th, 2012, 12:08:56 AM	#75
melvni Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 863	On the same note as those suggesting Bayleef and Lickitung... Servine@Eviolite 252 HP / 118 SpDef / 140 Spe Ability - Overgrow Nature - Timid ~Synthesis ~Knock Off ~Hidden Power Ice ~Taunt Servine enters at 244 HP after 80 hazard damage Life Orb Stone Edge: 137 damage max Stone Edge: 106 damage max Specs Draco Meteor: 217 damage max Draco Meteor: 145 damage max -2 Specs Draco Meteor: 109 damage max -2 Draco Meteor: 73 damage max -4 Specs Draco Meteor: 73 damage max -4 Draco Meteor: 49 damage max Specs Dragon Pulse: 141 damage max Dragon Pulse: 94 damage max Synthesis restores 162 HP If Servine Enters on Stone Edge: Life Orb Stone Edge + Servine uses Knock Off + Stone Edge = 1 HP remaining min From 1 HP min… -Synthesis + Stone Edge = 57 HP remaining min, if it continues to spam Stone Edge, this must be done two more times (at which point you will be at 169 HP min) to get Torterra into KO range with HP Ice due to Knock Off and Life Orb recoil. Using HP Ice after the second time you use Synthesis won’t work because you’ll be left at 7 HP (inside Draco’s KO range even after synthesis) and Torterra may die from Life Orb recoil after it uses its fifth Stone Edge depending on the HP Ice damage roll. You need to be at more than 55 HP to be safe when Altaria switches in. -Synthesis + Altaria switch in = 163 HP min, enough to Knock Off Altaria’s Specs and survive a Draco Meteor with 18 HP remaining min Life Orb Stone Edge + Servine uses Knock Off + Altaria switches in + Synthesis + Specs Draco Meteor = 124 HP min, enough to Knock Off Specs, survive a -2 Draco Meteor, and use Synthesis (which leaves 164 HP min even if Altaria launches a -4 Draco Meteor) If Servine Enters on Rock Polish: The situation plays out almost the same as entering on Stone Edge, except Torterra is faster. Knock Off turn one, then Spam Synthesis till you’ve ensured you’ll have more than 55 HP when Altaria switches in. If Servine enters on Draco Meteor: Specs Draco Meteor + Synthesis + -2 Specs Draco Meteor + Servine uses Knock Off + -4 Draco Meteor or Torterra switch in = 31 HP min remaining (at which point Synthesis gets you very, very safely out of KO range) Specs Draco Meteor + Synthesis + Torterra switches in = 189 HP remaining, at which the Torterra scenarios play out except you start with more HP and win even easier If Servine enters on Dragon Pulse: Specs Dragon Pulse + Servine uses Knock Off + Dragon Pulse = 9 HP remaining min (enough to survive an unboosted Draco Meteor after a Synthesis) Specs Dragon Pulse + Servine uses Knock Off + Torterra switches in = 103 HP remaining min (enough to survive a Stone Edge after a Synthesis with 159 HP remaining min) ------------------- Any time you have a chance, just spam HP Ice, since it at worst three hit KO’s both of them and Torterra has no recovery so eventually Torterra will die and Altaria won’t be able to Rest/Natural Cure stall (though Taunt helps prevent that as well to help ensure both are dead before you run out of Synthesis's). Edit: Forgot to mention the speed and nature ensure Servine outspeeds Altaria by one point. __________________ Dreams of Absolution (Horribly Outdated NU RMT) Last edited by melvni; Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:23:29 AM.