|Aug 3rd, 2012, 3:01:09 AM||#1|
Join Date: Mar 2009
Hello, and welcome to the thread of one of my most consistent and dependable Ubers teams during Pre-BW2 Ubers. I’ve been using this team since September 2011, when I made the team with HSA. When I first began playing Ubers, it was Dream World Ubers, so I focused on Regen Ho-Oh + Forretress + Groudon cores, which I absolutely loved in early DW. With Substitute, I found that I needed a bit more damage, preferably residual to put things in KO range. Between weather, status, and hazards, I figured that a combination of status and hazards was ideal. Most teams were offensive, and I noticed with hard hitters, a little bit of residual damage was necessary to put most things into KO range, but I preferred durability over power with the style of team that I wanted to make, so I needed something that could constantly degenerate health over multiple turns. Enter status: Poison and Burn. I had a motive, now I needed a means.
Giratina-O @ ***** Shawn Spencer
EVs: 248 Atk / 232 SAtk / 28 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Dragon Tail
- Shadow Sneak
- Draco Meteor
I’ve loved this set since I first saw Jibaku use it. Will-O-Wisp is for degeneration purposes. The only Pokemon that I actually use WoW against for the Attack drop are SD Arceus and Groudon, though I normally Draco Meteor the latter. Otherwise, I use WoW on anything that can’t be poisoned, namely Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Tentacruel. Dragon Tail is incredibly important as it deals a great chunk of damage to opposing Tentacruel, and the phazing it provides is important to force around switches and rack up hazards damage. Shadow Sneak makes Gira-O my foremost check to Mewtwo. After a couple of turns of Poison/LO residual damage, Sneak is able to put Mewtwo out of commission. Its natural bulk allows me to take on weaker hits such as Ferrothorn’s Power Whips and Forry's Gyro Balls and resisted hits such as Kyogre's Thunder, Dialga's Fire Blast. Draco Meteor is my STAB move of choice as I want the most damage to be done to general bulky Pokemon, such as Groudon and Dialga. The Speed EVs are there to Speed creep other bulky Base 90 Pokemon and hit them before they hit me. Naughty Nature is used to minimize the # of terms I need to wait before I can kill Mewtwo. Draco Meteor won’t mind missing a few Special Attack points, so I put it into Speed to ensure that I get the kill on other base 90s before they get the leap on me.
Shawn Spencer… the most volatile of my men is arguably the most unpredictable Pokemon. Many people get the general idea that he’s a Psychic and will generally have a Dragon Tail and a Shadow Sneak in there, but most of the time, nobody knows what else this boy’s gonna have. Is it gonna be Hidden Power Fire? Draco Meteor? Outrage? Earthquake? Spencer’s versatility has helped him stay out of trouble and catching criminals, and his unpredictability has definitely earned him the spot as Giratina-O.
Tentacruel (M) @ ***** Barney Stinson
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam
Tentacruel itself is important for the role of primary/backup Special Attack sponger. That Base 120 Special Defense and Rain Dish doesn't force it to be a suicide hazard layer. While the lack of Protect seems rather counter-intuitive, I don't consider Tentacruel to be that important offensively to maintain kills against other Pokemon. Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin are the main reason I use Tentacruel, and the aforementioned Special Defense is the reason why I do not run Forretress instead.
Scald is mostly there as a STAB attack and another effect to burn Pokemon, particularly Ferrothorn who usually has no qualms setting up on almost everything else my team has. Once it's burned though, it becomes a lot easier to handle (and fortunately, Tentacruel's not my only burner, else this would make for a shitty strategy.) Still though, the chance burns are usually useful as I mostly manage to get one layer of Toxic Spikes up anyway and it's not until mid-late-game that I get up a second layer of hazards given how common opposing spinners and Tentacruel are. Most would wonder why there is no Protect. It used to be on this team until after I played a Rayquaza and realized how threatening DD versions could be. Ice Beam does 70%+ to most DD/SD Rayquaza. Then, LO variants will put themselves in KO range of Giratina's Sneak.
Tentacruel's role though is solely to set up Toxic Spikes and spin hazards away as necessary. Against more offensive teams, Tentacruel becomes Specially defensive absorber. Against teams with Darkrai, Tentacruel becomes dedicated Sleep bitch and sometimes isn't able to do much :( The price of using two Ghosts, but oh well.
Edits: 232 HP / 252 SDef / 24 Spe spread changed to 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spd due to a tip from LizardMan for a more efficient EV Spread.
Barney, Barney, Barney… usually the most useless person ever. However, there is one important thing to remember about this man: he is deceptive with the ladies. Sure, he won’t mind lying a bit, here and there and then reveal some surprises. Likewise, with Tentacruel’s deception, its Toxic Spikes are absolutely useful, and that shocking Ice Beam for Rayquaza is also helpful. Come to think of it, every once in a while Tentacruel always gets some… burns with Scald too!
Ferrothorn (M) @ ***** Adrian Monk
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Leech Seed
- Power Whip
- Thunder Wave
Ferrothorn is my initial switch-in to Kyogre after it comes in on Dialga. It takes all of Ogre's attacks relatively easily and has amazing synergy with Tentacruel and Giratina-O. Leech Seed lets it recover most of the damage it has taken, and in the rain, Ferro can live one Fire Blast from support Dialga. Ferrothorn's main role is to Spike and Seed on anything that wants to try to set up on it. Power Whip is what I personally prefer for STAB to beat down bothersome Waters, particularly Tentacruel, Kyogre, and Palkia. If I am unable to get Toxic Spikes up because certain threats haven't been leaving (usually Mewtwo or +1 Rayquaza locked into Outrage), I have Thunder Wave to neuter them so that more members of my team can attempt to revenge kill.
Ahh Monk… generally the bitchiest of the lot I have and gets extremely irritated when things don’t quite go his way, like taking random Fire Blasts. Sometimes, his OCD tends to annoy people, particularly Arceus aiming to Brick Break this boy and Leech Seeding anything that generally wants to try to take advantage of it. Monk is usually paralyzed with his tendencies, which is fine facing opposing Ferrothorns. However, given time, Monk can always crack down the tougher cases to beat, such as opposing Lugia and CM Ogre.
Kyogre @ ***** Michael Scott
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Water Spout
- Ice Beam
Kyogre's main role is Drizzle. That's all. Without Drizzle, I'd actually have to worry about Fire Blast non-Rayquaza dragons, Tentacruel not getting enough HP, Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire being a bona fide bitch. Speaking of Ho-Oh, that's quite a bitch to this team; I need something to handle it. I'm not talking about Brave Bird because with Stealth Rock and two Ghosts, I prefer that residual damage. Once that thing lacks a Sub, Scarf Ogre outspeeds and KOs it. Scarf Ogre also outspeeds and KOes other things and it is a great revenge killer for stuff like CM Arceus (only if I get this thing in quickly), Giratina-O, Mewtwo, and Darkrai. Water Spout is the early-game spam move (sometimes this becomes Ice Beam to hit certain Dragons like Rayquaza on the switch). Ice Beam is for all the Dragons looking to come in hoping to take a resisted hit. Thunder is for opposing Ogres and Tentacruels. Once hazards and other damage has taken its toll, Surf becomes the STAB move of choice to clean up.
Known for being at the #1 position in Ubers, Kyogre’s developed an ego about itself, just like Michael Scott. Yes, he handles my Mewtwo problems, forces Arceus to ExtremeSpeed, and is just sometimes useful, but with something like #1, you’d think Michael would have a bigger role when he actively tries. Truth is, he doesn’t do that much when he actively tries. On his own, he can't OHKO stuff; that's why he must synergize with the rest of the team to weaken the enemies such that one Pokemon can sweep everything in the endgame. Usually, it's this guy.
Dialga @ ***** The Doctor
EVs: 252 HP / 32 SAtk / 200 SDef / 24 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Aura Sphere
In my opinion, Dialga is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. In this team, its access to SR and key resistances, particularly to Water, Electric, and Dark make it the reason I want this thing on my team. Usually, Dialga is my preferred lead as it sets up Stealth Rock quickly and can Draco Meteor most of the metagame for good damage. Dialga used to have Fire Blast, but I found Aura Sphere more useful as it 2HKOes most opposing Dialga and doesn't conflict with rain very much, plus I don't mind a consistent 30% damage to Ferrothorn. It also makes a good answer to Tyranitar leads as it outspeeds all max Speed neutral nature Tyranitar and 2HKOes with Aura Sphere before they can kill me with Low Kick. I generally won't mind a Dialga in its 40-50% HP because Leftovers and Ferrothorn's Leech Seed will usually let it live a couple more attacks. Roar is there to phaze away Substitutes, particularly those that belong to Ho-Oh, who in Sun otherwise poses to be a dangerous threat to this team. I rely on Stealth Rock, Rain, and phazing to keep it in check.
It’s only fitting the time traveler is the Pokemon of Time… thingy. When people are lost, they generally look to The Doctor as a figure to fall back upon and the answer to any unknown threat; similarly Dialga is the Pokemon I go to for general purposes and does a smashing good job of helping me learn whatever something is running.
Arceus-Ghost @ ***** Jack Donaghy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-O-Wisp / Calm Mind
- Focus Blast
Heh, the one mon that people claim to be the most broken was the filler of this team. Quite interesting that it’s worked out like this. WoW was necessary to stop Rayquazas, opposing SD Arceus, and Double Dance Groudon. Judgment is there for obligatory STAB, hitting Lugia, Mewtwo, opposing Arceus-Ghosts, and Giratinas for SE damage. Focus Blast seems odd given that I could use Fire Blast/ Flamethrower to kill Steels, but I need a backup move to hit opposing Dialga if my Dialga goes down too early.
Unfortunately, a big problem for this team was opposing CM Arceus, particularly Arceus-Steel. If it was last mon, then I couldn’t do anything. To minimize the changes, I sometimes run CM over WoW. Unfortunately, this means that I won’t be able to check hard-hitting physical attackers as well as I would like to, but this does mean that Arceus can be a bigger offensive threat.
Arceus-G is the BOSS of this entire team. The most recent addition of the 30 Rock crew is how NBC has managed to stay alive. Similarly, when desperate situations arise, Arceus can handle the job, no matter how daunting it is. The ability to mentor the team serves as with one simple change, I was able to cover the threats that once harassed this team.
Last edited by Steven Snype; Aug 19th, 2012 at 7:23:18 PM.
|Aug 4th, 2012, 1:14:12 AM||#2|
SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL
Join Date: Jul 2010
Giratina-O / Tentacruel / Forretress / Ghost Arceus / Kyogre / Dialga
No one rating this?
Straight off, ExtremeKiller looks a bit worrisome, Ghost Arceus is a shaky check with Judgment and Giratina-O is straight up OHKOd by LO Shadow Claw, so watch out. I know it's a matter of getting Leech Seed off and switching around but it's still a bitch.
Darkrai is a problem too, as you only have one Pokemon that outspeeds it and nothing to take a Dark Void.
A Mewtwo with 3 or 4 attacks would prove a threat too, nothing really like switches in on it and it can beat Arceus Ghost if it has CM. Giratina-O shakily checks it, but with a -SDef nature is easily 2HKOd by Ice Beam.
Rayquaza is also a big problem for teams like these, carrying moves that can severely hurt everything and Arceus Ghost not being to OHKO it is a problem as well.
I'd also watch out for Kabutops, whose rain boosted Waterfall 2hkos Arceus Ghost (iirc).
Watch out for Sub Seed Shaymin-S, as it sets up on Ferrothorn and can actually do severe damage with Dialga with a neutral Air Slash if it gets the SDef drop (Expert Belt with Earth Power and HP Fire actually is a bit problem too, but only I use that I think...)
Gliscor can also set up on Ferrothorn, and much easier a Burned Ferrothorn, and be really annoying.
A Cloyster + Wobbuffet can also sweep you clean if you're not careful with Ferrothorn.
A Jolly Bisharp can sweep you clean if it gets a chance to set up.
Aside from all that this is a very nice team, and a good example of rain balance. There isn't much I can suggest that wouldn't change the whole team, but consider:
Jirachi over Tentacruel
Forretress over Ferrothorn
Giratina-O to phys.def or phys.def Giratina-A.
This improves the defensive back bone of the team greatly as Arceus Grass can check non-V-Create Rayquaza with Ice Beam, Jirachi can take on Mewtwo and most CM Arceus reliably. Forretress can counter Gliscor with HP Ice. Physically defensive Giratina is a very good check to ExtremeKiller.
Dialga can run more speed to get the jump on Jolly Bisharp, but it's rare. Kabutops is also nicely checked by Grass Arceus.
cool team, solid for its metagame
|Aug 4th, 2012, 1:48:46 PM||#3|
(╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Join Date: Dec 2011
New York born, New York proud
well, I sent you a VM, but I guess Poppy outlined my thoughts here didn't he.
Like I said before(and what poppy brought up), SD Arceus is troublesome, as the checks on the team are shaky. A quick fix to this is changing Gira-O's EV Spread to 208 HP / 60 Atk / 188 Def / 24 SAtk / 28 Spd with a Naughty nature, as it so you takes a +2 SD Arceus's Shadow Claw even after 2 Stealth Rock switch ins, so you can deal with it easier. You could also try Thunder > Draco Meteor for Manaphy, since it can be troublesome as well once Ferrothorn goes down, though you should be able to phaze it out w/ Diagla before it becomes a menace.
Also, Darkrai and Mewtwo do pose threats, though its harder to fix those without making a significant change. Like I said before, using a Choice Scarf Heracross over Tentacruel works, as you have something to check Darkrai, as well as Mewtwo with Megahorn, plus it checks Shaymin-S w/o a Sub up and Rayquaza w/o DD with Stone Edge(yea, its shaky, but it sadly never got Ice Punch). With that, you could try a bulkier Kyorge spread, since your team requires rain to keep Ho-Oh and Reshiram in check. As such, a Sub CM Kyorge with 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk and Ice Beam or a Thunder Wave Kyorge can both work, as one means Kyorge can switch into Ho-Oh easier, and with 101 HP Subs, sets up on Chans + Bliss, as well as Ferrothorns without Power Whip(not much, but some omit the move), making it easier to break down teams with. If you do decide to try it, and you do go for Ice Beam, which you'll need for Shaymin-S and Rayquaza, defensibly use Thunder > Draco on Gira-O, since Kyorge would be walled by other Kyorge and Manaphy. On the other hand, Thunder Wave Kyorge cripples switch in such as Shaymin-S and Palkia, making it easier for Dialga to break it down. Ofc, you can use either set and alter to EVs to your liking, though the team is good as is, just some suggestions really than a rate.
So, in summary:
Great team Andrew, really great team.
|Aug 5th, 2012, 2:31:11 PM||#4|
Join Date: Apr 2011
WAIT THIS IS CHALLENGE ACCEPTED AS IN THE GUY WHO DROVE ME CRAZY WHILE I WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHOSE ALT IT IS???
You realize you better be prepared for an alt war right -_-.
Ok anyways aside that, this team is actually pretty cool, the setup sweepers mentioned earlier IMO, aren't that big since ogre revenges them anyway, but I do think Specs Ogre may seem to annoy you a bit. IIRC it 2HKOes everything (even Tentacruel at the moment due to lack of Protect), on the team and getting rid of one thing would hurt the teams backbone a good amount.
There are two ways to fix this though, one is by going Specially Defensive Gira-a is better then your current Gira-o OR you could go with Poppy's suggestions and run a Grass Arceus set with like Perish Song / Judgment / Ice Beam / Recover to counter Specs Ogre. This team is also weak to Tauntrados who can clean up after Kyogre's weakened since it dies to +2 Outrage but I'm probably the only one of thinks that so you should probably ignore me and move on.
I suggest going with Poppy's suggestions though since they do pair up the backbone of the team, although if you really hate enemy CM Steelceus all you had to do was substitute Focus Blast for Perish Song :P, I thought Arceus-Ghost was just supposed to burn-n-run to Ferro lol.
Its a really nice team with few threats IMO, and most of the threats listed are already revenged by Kyogre, its a nice team :D.
(15:32) Dusk [DW Uber]: Actually Deoxys-a is not the frailest uber
(15:32) Dusk [DW Uber]:Its Carvanha
(15:33) X-Spin: O.O What are its bases?
(15:33) Dusk [DW Uber]: 45/20/20 so close to matching Deo-a's 50/20/20
(15:33) X-Spin: That's enough to wall Specs Kyogre!
Great Sage is the best.
|Aug 5th, 2012, 3:09:17 PM||#5|
Join Date: Mar 2011
Im clueless about ubers, but luvdisced for barney stinson reference :D
|Aug 5th, 2012, 7:23:00 PM||#6|
I'm a macrophage
Join Date: Jul 2009
The biggest problem I see with this team is the fact that you're lacking firepower or win conditions. Any last mon mono-attacking Calm Mind Arceus with Refresh will just end up destroying you (Dark Arceus, Water Arceus, etc). Your opponent can easily just sac every Pokemon on their team, then bring in Arceus and you cannot do ANYTHING to it. You are also relatively weak to Manaphy, although Ferrothorn works well, I guess. Probably the easiest way to solve this problem is to just stick Perish Song on Arceus, I suppose.
|Aug 8th, 2012, 5:57:38 PM||#7|
Join Date: Mar 2009
I'm going to address the individual qualms I've had with these Pokemon as together, I think these changes would change the core drastically and make for a different (but still similarly functioning) really cool team.
I had been thinking about other Arceus forms initially and Grassceus stuck with me, but using that didn't really help my concerns about being SD Arc weak, unless there's a really weird spread that I don't know about that lets me live both SpecsOgre's assaults and +2 XSpeeds from Arc comfortably. With Ho-Oh and V-Create Ray plaguing this team, I wasn't sure if I wanted another Fire-weak mon.
Jirachi is admittedly a mon that I had not really given much thought about since I was worried about being weak to offensive Groudon and even weaker to Ho-Oh, though another Dragon-type resistance would be great and the Wish passes would be invaluable; I wasn't too sure about where to fit it.
Forry was another mon considered for the role of T-Spike + Spin, but I felt that Ferro and Forry was really redundant, and defensively Grass was more valuable than Bug, plus Tentacruel synergized with Rain better.
Physically defensive Giratina-O is a recent set that people are using and one that I haven't given much thought to. It's worth a test over the current Gira-O spread, and I will let you know how it synergizes with the team. Giratina-A is out of the question as versus opposing Spikes-reliant teams, I prefer Levitate and an offensive presence than Pressure.
Thank you for the rate Poppy!
Thank you Trollfreak. This rate looks to make ym team more offensively oriented, which is a spin that I had not thought much about. Scarf Cross is an interesting mon to use, but in my general experience with it, it hasn't been too helpful; nonetheless it's a cool revenge killer. I'd tried Thunder at one point, but I hadn't really found it to be that helpful given that I generally tried to phaze out Manaphy to force it to take more hazards damage and I preferred Draco to hit the more common Dialga and Groudon. That EV Spread though is interesting, and I'll try that out too.
T-Wave Ogre is something that came to mind before, but with the nature of the team, I preferred having them lose residual damage from Burn and Toxic rather than be completely paralyzed as it made it easier for a final Gira-O Shadow Sneak sweep rather than take a 10% Draco Miss chance in a final sweep. Thank you for your rate!
SDef Gira-O is an alternative that I have not given much thought to, but I wasn't too sure about it due to the fact that my spinblocker with no residual recovery would have to take neutral Specs Water Spouts (Rain cancels out resistance) and the fact that stuff often aimed Draco Meteors, Spacial Rends, Ice Beams, Shadow Balls for this thing, and I generally don't like relying on Rest, esp. in BW. Perish Song is an interesting option that I will try out soon, but I preferred the immediate crippling of burns. However, I did not think about trying it out over Focus Blast since I wanted something to hit Rai switch-ins too.
Yes, I wrote up tons of paragraphs for no win conditions and been using Giratina-O and Kyogre without ever using them as a means to damage the opposing teams. It's a wonder how I ever achieved #1 twice and won a team tourney with this team, going 3-2 in Team Trials IV.
At 100%, it's a problem, but nobody ever saves it for the very end. They come in a couple of times and I get up a SR layer or a couple of layers of Spikes. It can only pick one move before I generally go to Kyogre, which I generally save for the opposing Arceus, especially if I see a specially based move. If it's not Water, Grass (lol great STAB), or Dragon, they eat Surfs, which generally do 50-60%. If they Refresh, they get 2HKO'd, if they CM, the T-Spikes I've set up earlier will whittle them down a bit more to put them into KO range. Waterceus faces Thunder, which does more damage than Surf. Grassceus doesn't bother me.