Victini {BW2 Revamp}【QC: 4/3】

[Trinitrotoluene]

Things to do:

• Flesh out the skeleton [✓]
• Order sets [✓]
• Get QC approvals once testing and ordering is done [✓]
• Write up the ode to victory. [ ]

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Status: Close to victory.
QC Approvals: [jc104]* || [shrang]* || [Pocket] || [Harsha]
GP Checks: [ ] || [ ]
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*: QC approvals prior to establishment of Checks and Counters

OLD BW1 Analysis. Credit to SJCrew.

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[Overview]
<p>Victini is a curious case of an awesome concept with a few crippling flaws. On the bright side, its claim to fame as a Fire-type legend lies within its exclusive exclusive ability, Victory Star, which raises the accuracy of all of its moves by 10%, a diverse learnset to take advantage of it, and the insanely powerful V-create. On the other hand, it faces some very stiff competition for the role of an offensive Fire-type in OU, and its weaknesses to the ubiquitous Stealth Rock and Earthquake leave its defensive merits much to be desired. All things considered, while Victini may not be the fastest or strongest little guy in town, it has more than a few handy tricks up its sleeve and is very capable of hanging with big shots of OU. Be on your toes should you ever suffer the misfortune of encountering one.</p>

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: V-create
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: U-turn / Zen Headbutt
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
ability: Victory Star
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This set goes to show that the key to becoming a wallbreaking powerhouse is, quite literally, a giant, flaming V-symbol. V-create stands as the strongest attack in Victini's arsenal at a towering 180 base power, and is one of the many reasons Victini is difficult to switch into. For example, Latios, an otherwise flawless Victini counter, has trouble switching in on a Choice Banded V-Create, and is looking at a pretty good chance of being OHKOed after Stealth Rock damage if Victini is running an Adamant nature. Tyranitar, another common check to Victini, has a good chance of being 2HKOed by the very same attack while running a bulky spread with 252 HP EVs. Even Salamence finds itself losing over half of its HP if it attempts to switch in.</p>

<p>As powerful as V-create is, it does come with one very crippling setback: the user's Speed and defenses will lower immediately after use. Walls like Hippowdon or Porygon-2 might not be outspeeding it any time soon, but this is definitely a concern with bulky offensive Pokemon. The most common of these include Rotom-W, Dragonite, Hydreigon, and Salamence, all of which can take at least one hit (albeit not well), outspeed, and KO it.</p>

<p>The rest of its moves make their home on this set for the sole purpose of augmenting coverage for anything V-create might fail to KO. Fusion Bolt covers bulky Water-types, while Brick Break hits Heatran and Tyranitar, and U-turn scouts predicted switches, wears down counters, and keeps matchups in your favor. Zen Headbutt, while weaker than V-create in most cases, is useful as an alternative STAB to hit slower Pokemon neutral or weak to it without having to lower Victini's stats.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Choosing a nature is probably the most difficult decision you can make with regards to this set. If you are focused purely on tearing through defensive threats, and causing as much immediate damage as possible, an Adamant nature is your friend. It may, however, soon prove to be your downfall when facing a Salamence, Hydregion, or Haxorus running max Speed.</p>

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Searing Shot / Fire Blast
move 2: Thunder / Thunderbolt
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Psychic
item: Life Orb
ability: Victory Star
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is your quintessential special attacking Victini set, making full use of the coverage and movepool options its fellow Fire-type brethren lack. Searing Shot is Victini’s primary STAB attack, deterring almost anything that isn't immune to a burn from switching in due to its 30% secondary effect rate. Fire Blast takes advantage of the accuracy bonus, raising its accuracy to a more acceptable 93.5%, and can be used over Searing Shot, should you find yourself dissatisfied with the damage output.</p>

<p>Thunder's accuracy may not make it such an attractive option at first glance, but Victory Star alleviates this concern somewhat. Victini can usually afford the accuracy drop for the extra power, as it packs the punch necessary to 2HKO bulky Water types such as Jellicent, Suicune, and Vaporeon that Thunderbolt might normally miss. Still, if reliability is your primary concern, Thunderbolt can be used instead. Focus Blast is non-negotiable, as it eliminates both Heatran and the ever-prevalent Tyranitar, the latter of which can put Victini in a checkmate position with Pursuit.</p>

<p>Last but not least, Psychic rounds off coverage as Victini's secondary STAB, which can be used to check the likes of Conkeldurr, Machamp, and other bulky Fighting-types, threatening to OHKO before they can cause too much damage. Tentacruel is 2HKOed as well, mitigating the need to rely on weaker or less accurate Electric-type attacks to keep it at bay.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>This set doesn't need much support to function well. Sun support from Drought Ninetales helps Searing Shot secure guaranteed KOs on Virizion, Brozong, and Jirachi, but also forces Victini to switch to Thunderbolt, due to Thunder's decreased accuracy in Sun. It's also much easier said than done to put Ninetales and Victini on the same team, since the two share a lot of the same weaknesses, most notably Stealth Rock.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Final Gambit
move 2: U-turn
move 3: V-create
move 4: Fusion Bolt
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly
ability: Victory Star
evs: 252 HP / 4 Att / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>In a metagame without Explosion, this particular set can come as a real surprise to your opponent. While Final Gambit may have its flaws, perhaps the greatest of which is its dependency on the user's health, it also has plenty of strategic merit. First off, the amount of damage Final Gambit does is set based on HP. At 404 HP, Victini is capable of eliminating a vast majority of OU's Pokemon, meaning that unless Victini fails to land its attack, you should expect a KO from this set almost every match.</p>

<p>One of the best ways to play this set is as an early-to-mid game scout. If the lead match-up is unfavorable, U-turn out and wait for another opportunity. Try to avoid matching up with Tyranitar, though, since a slower Pursuit can catch a U-turn user before it switches out for full damage. If hazards are not up, Victini can continue to do this until you've trapped your opponent into a position where they will lose something important no matter what they do.</p>

<p>This can be a strategic boon if used properly, but keep in mind that you only get one shot, and if Victini misses its target, or uses it as a Ghost-type switches in, you are left without a Victini. Still, this set can disrupt the synergy of any good team by forcing your opponent to choose which Pokemon they want to sacrifice, and create just the right opening for another dangerous team member.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Blissey and Jellicent are this set's worst enemies; Blissey has no problem taking a Final Gambit with its massive base HP, while Jellicent is immune. The best way to handle either would be to keep momentum against them by predicting their switches with U-turn, and trap them with a Tyranitar or Dugtrio while they're at sufficiently low health. Pursuit users in general go a long way to ensuring that you do not sacrifice your Victini needlessly on any Ghost-type your opponent may carry. Rapid Spin users also make good teammates for Victini to keep Final Gambit from weakening as it loses health on each switch-in.</p>

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Psychic / Fire Blast
item: Leftovers
ability: Victory Star
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpAtk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>While Victini is mainly an offensive Pokemon, it has great bulk, useful resistances, and feasible support value. One of its key perks is the improved accuracy of Will-O-Wisp, which Victory Star raises to a solid 82.5%. Most of Victini's checks don't appreciate being worn down by burn damage, especially ones that rely on Substitute or use physical attacks. Garchomp, Terrakion, and Landorus are all punished on the switch-in, and walls are further hindered by Taunt, denying them any healing or setup opportunities. Tyranitar is not an issue as far as this set is concerned unless it runs Choice Scarf or something unorthodox like Lum Berry. Blissey and Chansey, common enemies to all special attackers, are also rendered completely useless and setup bait for any physical powerhouse on your team.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>The fourth slot can be used for almost anything you don't want to give a free turn to, but the options listed are the safest and optimal ways to take advantage of Victini's capabilities. Run Psychic if you want to check Fighting-types more efficiently, or use Fire Blast to handle Steel- and Grass-types.</p>

<p>The EVs are for maximum bulk and maximum Speed. Once your opponent is aware of this set, its lack of offensive power could work against you; offensive powerhouses will have no problem switching in on Taunt or a resisted move. It would be advisable to carry an especially potent wall to cover anything you fail to catch on the switch-in with a burn, like Skarmory or Hippowdon.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Victini has a whole host of other options, but can scarcely afford a move slot for them. Grass Knot, while less consistent in damage output, offers an alternative method for killing many bulky Water-types and contending with Tyranitar. Shadow Ball should only be used with Latios, Latias, and similar match-ups in mind, since its STAB Fire attacks or other coverage moves offer equal or more power in most cases. Psyshock allows special attacking sets to deal a decent amount of damage to Blissey, while Eviolite Chansey remains unfazed.</p>

<p>At first glance, a Trick Room set houses one of the most attractive sweeping options Victini can run. V-create's high base power and ability to lower Victini's speed makes it a theoretical shoe-in for success. In reality, however, it is disappointingly difficult to work with. Even with a Brave nature and 0 Speed IVs, its base speed is far too high to get past some of the slower Pokemon that can move first and KO it while under the effects of Trick Room; Quagsire, Slowbro, and Hippowdon are just a few examples. Test it to your heart's content, but brace yourself for disappointment.</p>

[Checks and Counters]
<p>Victini's counters depend heavily on the type of set it's running. Specially offensive variants will be loathe to face down premier special walls Blissey and Chansey. Even with its large movepool, faster Dragon-types almost universally counter it, especially the likes of Latios and Latias. Physically-oriented Dragon-types should be cautious of switching in, as a burn from Searing Shot or Will-o-Wisp will render them ineffective.</p>

<p>Physical sets are a hair trickier to deal with, due to V-create's absurd damage output. Salamence's Intimidate helps it check physical sets easier, but a Choice Band V-create will still deal close to half its HP in damage. Bulky Water-types can check it, provided they avoid switching into Fusion Bolt. Slowbro is a notable exception in this regard, as Regenerator allows it to lessen the risk of switching into the wrong move. Being weak to Pursuit also means Tyranitar with a Choice Scarf or Krookodile will remove it from the match when Victini is at sufficiently low on HP. A Choice Band Weavile will take it out for sure at -1 Defense and a round of Stealth Rock damage.</p>

<p>Offensive powerhouses with super effective STAB attacks, like Landorus, Terrakion, and Excadrill, can easily scare it out. As long as you can keep Stealth Rock up and avoid being burned, securing and maintaining momentum against a Victini is a surefire way to defeat it.</p>

shrang's Proposition

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Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Victini
- Hasn't changed much, although it did add Fire Punch and Trick to its repertoire, which could be used on Choice sets.
- My God, get rid of Zen Headbutt. It does nothing that V-Create and the other attacks can't.
- Remove Special Attacker and Support. I personally like the special set because of how cool Searing Shot is, but there's no denying it's just completely outclassed by all its other sets.
- OU worthy? Yes.
- Revamp? A small one would probably suffice.

"I'll carry on fighting beside you until the very end." ~Fiora
[Overview]

• V-create gave the Victory Pokemon a new (old) reason to be used on sun teams
• Victory Star raises accuracy of moves by 10%, giving it ability to utilize expansive movepool more reliably
• Newly released, ubiquitous Pokemon (Techniloom, Thick Fat Mamoswine, Regenerator Amoonguss) give Victini more breathing room in OU
• New emphasis on rain slightly dampens Victini's potential
• Same old threats (Stealth Rock, Heatran) present, hampering Victini's time in OU
• Has plenty of competition from the likes of Darmanitan; advantages include more respectable defenses, Fusion Bolt, and marginally better STAB

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: V-create
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: U-turn
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
ability: Victory Star
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• V-create defines power and makes switching into Victini difficult unless Flash Fire, resistances, and / or a massive Defense stat is possessed; V-create also destroys conventional physical walls
• Side effects of V-create (lowered defenses and speed) problematic and exploitable
• Fusion Bolt great for eliminating bulky waters looking to take a V-create, such as Slowbro
• Brick Break useful for dealing a heavy blow to Heatran and Tyranitar on the switch
• U-turn maintains momentum and eases prediction

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• New tutors brought Victini Trick, giving it ability to cripple stall; it's hard to wall Victini, so Trick's usability is lowered
• EVs maximize Victini's power and speed, with the last 4 being tossed into Defense to keep HP at an odd number
• Choice Band the preferred item due to lack of recoil and increased power
• Life Orb gives holder ability to switch off moves and maintain high level of power at cost of 10% recoil; aforementioned recoil hastens Victini's death on the field
• Fighting Gem can be used to bluff a choice item, all while granting Victini the ability to hit Heatran and TTar very hard
• Charcoal can be used to grant V-create a 20% power boost while maintaining a Choice bluff and avoiding nasty recoil
• Trick Room usable with Life Orb, Brave nature, and an EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def to exploit V-create's effects
• Countered only by Dragonite, defensive Salamence, and Heatran; Mamoswine and Starmie can take on all 3 at once
• Ninetales is Victini's best friend due to ability to maintain sunlight, which cranks Victini's power through the roof; other weather inducers that are not named Politoed can be used, but Ninetales and Drought are much preferred
• Spinners such as Forretress and Hitmontop useful partners to eliminate hazards
• Chlorophyll Pokemon, other Grass-types (Breloom, Virizion), and Dragons great for combating Water-types that wall Victini
• Sleep Talk worthwhile since Victini does well against Breloom
• Dugtrio AWESOME at trapping Tyranitar and Heatran

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: V-create
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Trick / Brick Break / Flare Blitz
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant / Jolly
ability: Victory Star
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Excellent revenge killer; great scout and momentum-grabber
• Main advantage over other revenge killers (e.g. Scarf MoxieMence, Terrakion) is access to U-turn and powerful STAB under the sun
• V-create is main source of power
• Fusion Bolt useful for assassinating Gyarados, Tornadus-T (in the rain), and Politoed
• U-turn is the obligatory momentum-grabber; helps ease Victini's life by pinpointing counters
• Trick cripples stall by burdening opponent with Choice Scarf
• Flare Blitz can be used to revenge-kill and potentially sweep late-game without slowing down
• Brick Break can be used over U-turn to get a good hit on Heatran and Tyranitar, but lack of power is discouraging

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Adamant gives Victini enough speed to outpace Scarf Rotom-W while maintaining a respectable amount of power; an Adamant Scarf Victini's V-create is just as strong as a Jolly Darmanitan's Flare Blitz
• Physically defensive Hippowdon a great counter to this set due to ability to stall V-creates out; powerful Grass-types great teammates for punishing Hippowdon
• Heatran an even larger problem for this set than the Band set; Dragons and Fighters useful for containing it
• Ninetales even more needed as a teammate for this set due to lack of initial power
• Hazard application and removal also appreciated, as this Victini is great at forcing switches; Forretress especially great at both ends
• Chlorophyll sweepers still work well with this Victini, but not as well as they do with the Band / LO set
• Powerful dragons such as Haxorus and Dragonite can punch holes into Pokemon that Victini can revenge kill
• Dugtrio can trap Tyranitar and Heatran, reliably eliminating two major obstacles blocking Victini's path to victory

[SET]
name: Final Gambit
move 1: Final Gambit
move 2: U-turn
move 3: V-create
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly
ability: Victory Star
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Guarantees a KO early on with Final Gambit, making the battle 5 vs. 5
• Plays differently than the Scarf set by attempting to take down a critical member of the opponent's team at the cost of its own life
• Main targets are opposing weather inducers
• U-turn can be used to scout for Ghost-types
• V-create still does an acceptable amount of damage, despite the lower Attack
• Trick can be used to ruin Ghosts, Pokemon with a HP stat > 404, and Blissey / Chansey willing to tank a Final Gambit; Victini is weak, and it most likely won't mind losing the scarf
• Jolly ensures that Victini gets to lance a Final Gambit before opponent can move

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Fusion Bolt can sting those weak to it
• Hazards are the bane of this Victini, reducing the power of its Final Gambit; Spinners and / or a Magic Bounce Pokemon very much appreciated if you're not leading with this; however, you should be using this as a lead, reducing the need for such support
• Trappers such as Tyranitar and Scizor helpful to eliminate Ghost-types
• Priority still problematic; nothing that can be done about that though...
• Chlorophyll sweepers go well with this Victini if Ninetales is used

[Other Options]

• A purely special set can be used due to Victini's access to great moves such as Searing Shot, Fire Blast, Psychic, Focus Blast, and Thunder, but such a set leaves Victini outclassed by Volcarona, Heatran, Chandelure, and (oddly enough) Charizard
• Zen Headbutt can demolish Toxicroak (under rain) / Keldeo / Amoonguss / Tentacruel / Terrakion / Infernape / Virizion / Breloom / Conkeldurr without lowering stats
• A mixed set could work, but physical variants hit harder
• A support set is also viable, but Victini's typing defensively is sketchy, undermining Victini's otherwise respectable bulk
• Sleep Talk great because Victini can counter Breloom with its respectable bulk and decent typing
• Substitute useful for keeping revenge killers at bay
• Sunny Day can be used so Victini becomes more self-sufficient; Sunny Day + Focus Blast can be used to beat 252 / 192+ Tyranitar assuming max SpA EVs
• Thunder Wave and Will-o-Wisp can be used to ruin a switch-in; Will-o-wisp notable because it helps against Slowbro
• Fire Punch can be used over Flare Blitz or V-create, but the power loss is especially noticeable and losing V-create causes Victini to lose its only reason for being used
• ThunderPunch has more PP than Fusion Bolt, but power loss is not worth the extra PP

[Checks and Counters]

• Nearly impossible to counter Victini under the sun due to V-create's sheer power; closest counters are defensive Salamence and Dragonite, and even they take quite a hit from V-create
• Bulky waters can work, but must avoid switching into V-create (under the sun) or Fusion Bolt; Slowbro gets special mention because of Regenerator
• Stealth Rock is great to force checkmate on Victini
• Politoed gets a special mention for being able to rob V-create of its immense power with Drizzle, but it too must avoid Fusion Bolt
• Hippowdon and its Sand Stream enable it to act as a great Scarf Victini counter; it must watch for Band and Final Gambit sets though
• Heatran can work because of Flash Fire, but has to avoid Brick Break; in that same vein, Chandelure can work, but has to avoid Fusion Bolt
• Dugtrio can eliminate Victini locked into V-create or Fusion Bolt
• Easier to check Victini than to counter it; Terrakion, Landorus, Salamence, and Tyranitar best at checking Victini
• Under sun, Darmanitan and Sawsbuck can easily revenge kill after a V-create
• V-create's side-effects can be used to revenge kill it, often eliminating the need for Choice Scarf

[Pocket]

For the first set, AC mention Fighting Gem so its first Brick Break can hit Heatran / TTar as hard as the band version without being choice-locked.

Trick Room may also deserve an AC mention with max HP / max Atk to make better use of V-create.

AC mention max attack / max speed for the Scarfer set, since some may want to hit hard with Victini. Mention Flare Blitz > Final Gambit as a powerful spammable Fire-type move when Victini does not want to slow down.

[ginganinja]

Add a different scarfer set IMO, one that maxes speed and Atk, and doesn't use Final Gambit. I tested the set myself, and it just fucking nuked everything, as well as acting as a very good, long term revenge killer and Scout.

Final Gambit (in my opinion) is usually forced to sacrifice itself early (unless you have a spinner to avoid SR hassling you), but you hopefully take down a key pokemon on the opponents team. I would argue that the two sets are different enough to be included in the analysis.

OO Zen Headbutt since I found it useful in doing more to Keldeo, but it has limited use outside of hitting all those common fighting types in 1 move (as well as Tenta).

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

For the first set, AC mention Fighting Gem so its first Brick Break can hit Heatran / TTar as hard as the band version without being choice-locked.

Trick Room may also deserve an AC mention with max HP / max Atk to make better use of V-create.

AC mention max attack / max speed for the Scarfer set, since some may want to hit hard with Victini. Mention Flare Blitz > Final Gambit as a powerful spammable Fire-type move when Victini does not want to slow down.

I've tried out a Trick Room set, and I liked it. I can agree that it only deserves an AC mention though (too many rain teams to do well enough on its own...).

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Add a different scarfer set IMO, one that maxes speed and Atk, and doesn't use Final Gambit. I tested the set myself, and it just fucking nuked everything, as well as acting as a very good, long term revenge killer and Scout.

Final Gambit (in my opinion) is usually forced to sacrifice itself early (unless you have a spinner to avoid SR hassling you), but you hopefully take down a key pokemon on the opponents team. I would argue that the two sets are different enough to be included in the analysis.

OO Zen Headbutt since I found it useful in doing more to Keldeo, but it has limited use outside of hitting all those common fighting types in 1 move (as well as Tenta).

Alright. I'll get that in as the second set.

The proposed set order for the analysis is listed below. Are there any changes that QC would recommend for Victini?

• Physical Attacker
• Choice Scarf
• Final Gambit

[Cherub Agent]

Can't Final Gambit just be in the AC of the Scarf set?

Mabye mention how it's very, very similar to Darmanitan?

Also the Final Gambit set likes Wish support. Blissey heals 3/4ths of Victini's HP and attracts Fighting moves Victini can come in on

[ginganinja]

The Sets play too differently, one plays as more of a suicide lead, the other an actual revenge killer. The two sets also require a different EV spread, and I just think that its better off with two different sets.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Call me crazy, but is a specially based mixed set possible? V-Create has an insane amount of base power (180) and it is backed by STAB, meaning even with little investment it still has the possibility to 2HKO Chansey. In addition, his special movepool has a large variety of options but most importantly a secondary STAB in Psychic. He does receive a large amount of competition from Infernape, but one of his perks includes having Thunderbolt to better get past bulky Waters.

Victini @ Life Orb
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- V-create
- Thunderbolt / Energy Ball
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Thunderbolt / Energy Ball is a toss up. In exchange for hitting Jellicent, Vaporeon, and Politoed for less you have the ability to hit Gastrodon much harder. Tentacruel is already taken care of with STAB Psychic.

[Electrolyte]

I think that, though they might play a little differently, the scarf and band can be combined, and the life orb can be it's own set. The band and scarf sets are pretty much the same thing; they have almost the same moveset, and the same EVs.

And about PDB's set, what are you hitting harder with LO Thunderbolt that you're not hitting as hard with Fusion Bolt? The only benedfits to that set is Psychic, Energy Ball, and Focus Blast; which IMO aren't worth their own set. Still, Focus Blast nailing Heatrans for Sun support sounds delicious.

Trinitrotoluene, don't forget to stress on Victini's strengths over other fairies- V-Create, Fusion Bolt, and ability to work wonders under the sun.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat Cherub Agent

Can't Final Gambit just be in the AC of the Scarf set?

Mabye mention how it's very, very similar to Darmanitan?

Also the Final Gambit set likes Wish support. Blissey heals 3/4ths of Victini's HP and attracts Fighting moves Victini can come in on

I can mention its similarities to Darmanitan. Also, the Scarf and Final Gambit sets play extremely differently, as ginganinja stated. Wish support for the Final Gambit set is something I can mention.

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

The Sets play too differently, one plays as more of a suicide lead, the other an actual revenge killer. The two sets also require a different EV spread, and I just think that its better off with two different sets.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

Call me crazy, but is a specially based mixed set possible? V-Create has an insane amount of base power (180) and it is backed by STAB, meaning even with little investment it still has the possibility to 2HKO Chansey. In addition, his special movepool has a large variety of options but most importantly a secondary STAB in Psychic. He does receive a large amount of competition from Infernape, but one of his perks includes having Thunderbolt to better get past bulky Waters.

Victini @ Life Orb
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
- V-create
- Thunderbolt / Energy Ball
- Psychic
- Focus Blast

Thunderbolt / Energy Ball is a toss up. In exchange for hitting Jellicent, Vaporeon, and Politoed for less you have the ability to hit Gastrodon much harder. Tentacruel is already taken care of with STAB Psychic.

The purely physical sets hit much harder, and can break stall better than a mixed set.

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

I think that, though they might play a little differently, the scarf and band can be combined, and the life orb can be it's own set. The band and scarf sets are pretty much the same thing; they have almost the same moveset, and the same EVs.

And about PDB's set, what are you hitting harder with LO Thunderbolt that you're not hitting as hard with Fusion Bolt? The only benedfits to that set is Psychic, Energy Ball, and Focus Blast; which IMO aren't worth their own set. Still, Focus Blast nailing Heatrans for Sun support sounds delicious.

Trinitrotoluene, don't forget to stress on Victini's strengths over other fairies- V-Create, Fusion Bolt, and ability to work wonders under the sun.

The Scarf and Band sets play extremely different games. One (Scarf) aims to revenge kill weakened threats, while the other (Band) aims to demolish walls with its powerful V-create.

[ginganinja]

Right

Brick Break I kinda want mentioned in the 4th slot (on Scarf), but I guess an AC mention is o.k. Its really really nice for Terrakion, Tar, and Heatran, all of which pretty much don't give 2 shits about you otherwise.

Mention that Victini really really wants weather. I used to use non weather a LOT, and while I had success with Victini on a non weather team (it was CB), when going up against rain, it was kinda like a deadweight. You really want to have the freedom to spam that nuke in V-Create, so I feel that having weather is almost essential for all sets. It doesn't even have to be Ninetales, just something that prevents it raining. (I know you brought up Ninetales, just stress in the analysis that keeping rain away is very important to Victini)

OO Zen Headbutt (for the 2nd time). I might have missed it, and if you did then im sorry, however, I actually did find some good use for it in my testing. It did more to Keldeo, which I found useful, as well as hitting Toxicroak (under rain) / Keldeo / Amoonguss / Tentacruel / Terrakion / Infernape / Virizion / Breloom / Conkeldurr all in one move. Granted, V-Create hits harder on most of them, but there will be times you want to go for an end game sweep, or if the speed / Def / SDef drop is distasteful, and Zen Headbutt helps with that. Its not terrible, and I think its good in OO.

[jc104]

IMO you should de-slash Trick from the first set and relegate it to AC. Walling Victini is virtually impossible outside of rain, and so I don't think there are many walls you need to Trick, if any. The two counters you listed, Dragonite and Salamence, do not mind a Choice Band too much most of the time (depending on the set they are running). The two moves it might replace are really quite important against the likes of Heatran, Tyranitar, Latios and Latias. And finally, if you are using a Life Orb, Trick is clearly useless.

Also, I'm really not sure Final Gambit is worth a set on its own. In order to achieve a one-for-one tradeoff, you need to support Victini by providing it a safe switchin and keeping hazards off the field, unless you are leading with it. Even then, you are far from guaranteed to KO the Pokemon you want to KO. Regardless, I think you should clarify that the main targets are weather inducers (ttar and politoed) which can take a hit from the normal scarf set, and are obviously important enough to sacrifice a Pokemon to remove.

Also, in my opinion Zen Headbutt should be in AC on the first two sets. I think that better suggests how good it is, compared to the rubbish that normally ends up in OO.

edit: Final Gambit set really doesn't need Fusion Bolt; it's weak enough even with no investment. I would rather have Trick in that last slot, since it's still as potent as ever without Attack investment. Several notable players have said to me that they like the set, and so I'm happy for it to stay for now. Please stress though, that the idea is to lead with it, or at least to use it very early in the game, rather than supporting it with Rapid Spin and Wish.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Right

Brick Break I kinda want mentioned in the 4th slot (on Scarf), but I guess an AC mention is o.k. Its really really nice for Terrakion, Tar, and Heatran, all of which pretty much don't give 2 shits about you otherwise.

Mention that Victini really really wants weather. I used to use non weather a LOT, and while I had success with Victini on a non weather team (it was CB), when going up against rain, it was kinda like a deadweight. You really want to have the freedom to spam that nuke in V-Create, so I feel that having weather is almost essential for all sets. It doesn't even have to be Ninetales, just something that prevents it raining. (I know you brought up Ninetales, just stress in the analysis that keeping rain away is very important to Victini)

OO Zen Headbutt (for the 2nd time). I might have missed it, and if you did then im sorry, however, I actually did find some good use for it in my testing. It did more to Keldeo, which I found useful, as well as hitting Toxicroak (under rain) / Keldeo / Amoonguss / Tentacruel / Terrakion / Infernape / Virizion / Breloom / Conkeldurr all in one move. Granted, V-Create hits harder on most of them, but there will be times you want to go for an end game sweep, or if the speed / Def / SDef drop is distasteful, and Zen Headbutt helps with that. Its not terrible, and I think its good in OO.

I agree with your statement that Victini needs to be away from the rain. However, I think that Ninetales should be brought up as the preferred weather inducer, due to sun boosting V-create's power to incredible levels. Oh, thanks for reminding me to OO Zen Headbutt. Also, do you think that Zen Headbutt warrants a mention in the AC of the first set? I have mixed feelings about it.

Originally Posted by Fat jc104

IMO you should de-slash Trick from the first set and relegate it to AC. Walling Victini is virtually impossible outside of rain, and so I don't think there are many walls you need to Trick, if any. The two counters you listed, Dragonite and Salamence, do not mind a Choice Band too much most of the time (depending on the set they are running). The two moves it might replace are really quite important against the likes of Heatran, Tyranitar, Latios and Latias. And finally, if you are using a Life Orb, Trick is clearly useless.

Also, I'm really not sure Final Gambit is worth a set on its own. In order to achieve a one-for-one tradeoff, you need to support Victini by providing it a safe switchin and keeping hazards off the field, unless you are leading with it. Even then, you are far from guaranteed to KO the Pokemon you want to KO. Regardless, I think you should clarify that the main targets are weather inducers (ttar and politoed) which can take a hit from the normal scarf set, and are obviously important enough to sacrifice a Pokemon to remove.

Also, in my opinion Zen Headbutt should be in AC on the first two sets. I think that better suggests how good it is, compared to the rubbish that normally ends up in OO.

edit: Final Gambit set really doesn't need Fusion Bolt; it's weak enough even with no investment. I would rather have Trick in that last slot, since it's still as potent as ever without Attack investment. Several notable players have said to me that they like the set, and so I'm happy for it to stay for now. Please stress though, that the idea is to lead with it, or at least to use it very early in the game, rather than supporting it with Rapid Spin and Wish.

Final Gambit plays differently enough than the Scarf set to get its own set. Also, you make several great points. I'll fix up the analysis.

[ginganinja]

Also, do you think that Zen Headbutt warrants a mention in the AC of the first set? I have mixed feelings about it.

Maybe, but I don't think its needed. I only used Zen Headbutt on Scarf, just because I needed the extra power vs Keldeo and other sweepers so I could easily revenge them. CB doesn't really miss power, ergo I feel that it doesn't need Zen Headbutt so much. Quite honestly, I would be fine seeing it in AC, I just know that shrang dislikes Zen Headbutt iirc and his arguments are justified when CB is concerned. However, if hes o.k with it getting an AC mention, I will be too.

[jc104]

QC Approved 1/3

Provided you write a reasonable checks and counters section.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Maybe, but I don't think its needed. I only used Zen Headbutt on Scarf, just because I needed the extra power vs Keldeo and other sweepers so I could easily revenge them. CB doesn't really miss power, ergo I feel that it doesn't need Zen Headbutt so much. Quite honestly, I would be fine seeing it in AC, I just know that shrang dislikes Zen Headbutt iirc and his arguments are justified when CB is concerned. However, if hes o.k with it getting an AC mention, I will be too.

Alright.

Originally Posted by Fat jc104

QC Approved 1/3

Provided you write a reasonable checks and counters section.

Thanks!

[shrang]

QC Approved 2/3

[Pocket]

May we hold off on QC approvals until this analysis is actually completed? The Checks and Counters are still missing -_-;;

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

QC Approved 2/3

Thanks! A special note on the OP has been made regarding your and jc104's approvals.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

May we hold off on QC approvals until this analysis is actually completed? The Checks and Counters are still missing -_-;;

Finished with the Checks and Counters section. Thank you Pocket.

[Pocket]

Yea, definitely mention Dugtrio as teammates. Heatran and TTar are the bane of Victini and Drought Teams in general, and Dugtrio eliminates them for Victini to spam V-create.

You can mention teammates when using Victini outside of Drought teams. Other non-chlorophyll Grass mons such as Virizion, Breloom, and Celebi fits the bill. Dragon-types are also great for checking both Heatran and Water-types.

Physical Attacker

~ Mention Fighting Gem. It has some cool points in bluffing Victini as choiced, while hitting Heatran / TTar, the main recipients of BB, as hard as possible, which Sun teams would definitely appreciate.

~ Mention Charcoal for 20% boost on its V-create without the LO recoil or being choice-locked

Choice Scarf

~ Flare Blitz and Brick Break bullet points go under Set Comments, since they are slashed in the main set.

~ Mention that Adamant Victini's V-create is as powerful as Jolly Darmanitan's Flare Blitz, to illustrate its power.

Other Option

Fire Punch can be used over Flare Blitz or V-create, but the power loss is especially noticeable and losing V-create causes Victini to lose its only reason for being used

~ Remove the mention of Fire Punch. Fire Blast does more damage than Fire Punch, even with 0 SpA investment.

~ Remove mention of ThunderPunch.

~ T-Wave and Will-O-Wisp deserves a mention for crippling its switch-in. T-Wave is nice for the same speed advantage provided by Trick Room. Will-O-Wisp provides the fast residual damage to quickly bring even bulky opponents such as Slowbro into V-create KO range; not to mention it cripples physical attackers.

~ Sunny Day is always worth mentioning to allow Victini to provide the favorable weather condition himself without the help of Ninetales.

~ Wouldn't hurt to mention some of its rich special movepool, such as STAB Psychic, Searing Shot, VStar-boosted Fire Blast, Focus Blast, and Thunder (not in Drought Team of course), SolarBeam / Grass Knot, and Shadow Ball, all of which can be used for some sort of mixed / special offense approach. It's worthy to note that Sunny Day + Focus Blast is nice for a KO against even 252 HP / 192+ SpD TTar after SR (this is assuming max SpA Victini)

~ Substitute is worth mentioning, since Victini is easily revenge-killed after the speed / defense drops.

~ Sleep Talk - Victini is naturally bulky and resists Breloom's STAB moves, making Sleep Talk a good fit.

Checks & Counters

~ Should mention that getting SR up as early and long as possible is a nice way to checkmate Victini

~ Dugtrio deserves a special mention for quickly dispatching Victini locked into V-create.

~ Need more emphasis on how V-create can be used against Victini (without Trick Room), since it leaves it vulnerable to revenge-kills. Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, and Gengar for instance, don't even need Scarf to revenge Victini after the speed / special drop. Scarf Mence can attempt an Moxie Outrage sweep.

~ Although rare, physically defensive Hippowdown can remove the Sun-boost and stall out Scarf Victini's V-create. Caution readers to be wary of Final Gambit, though.

~ Other Sun Sweepers, such as Scarf Darmanitan and Chlorophyll mons w/ more than just Grass + Fire coverage can fuck Victini up after using V-create.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Yea, definitely mention Dugtrio as teammates. Heatran and TTar are the bane of Victini and Drought Teams in general, and Dugtrio eliminates them for Victini to spam V-create.

You can mention teammates when using Victini outside of Drought teams. Other non-chlorophyll Grass mons such as Virizion, Breloom, and Celebi fits the bill. Dragon-types are also great for checking both Heatran and Water-types.

Physical Attacker

~ Mention Fighting Gem. It has some cool points in bluffing Victini as choiced, while hitting Heatran / TTar, the main recipients of BB, as hard as possible, which Sun teams would definitely appreciate.

~ Mention Charcoal for 20% boost on its V-create without the LO recoil or being choice-locked

Choice Scarf

~ Flare Blitz and Brick Break bullet points go under Set Comments, since they are slashed in the main set.

Other Option


~ Remove the mention of Fire Punch. Fire Blast does more damage than Fire Punch, even with 0 SpA investment.

~ Remove mention of ThunderPunch.

~ T-Wave and Will-O-Wisp deserves a mention for crippling its switch-in. T-Wave is nice for the same speed advantage provided by Trick Room. Will-O-Wisp provides the fast residual damage to quickly bring even bulky opponents such as Slowbro into V-create KO range; not to mention it cripples physical attackers.

~ Sunny Day is always worth mentioning to allow Victini to provide the favorable weather condition himself without the help of Ninetales.

~ Wouldn't hurt to mention some of its rich special movepool, such as STAB Psychic, Searing Shot, VStar-boosted Fire Blast, Thunder, and Focus Blast (not in Drought Team of course), SolarBeam / Grass Knot, and Shadow Ball, all of which can be used for some sort of mixed / special offense approach. It's worthy to note that Sunny Day + Focus Blast is nice for a KO against 252 HP / 192+ SpD TTar

~ Substitute is worth mentioning, since Victini is easily revenge-killed after the speed / defense drops.

~ Sleep Talk - Victini is naturally bulky and resists Breloom's STAB moves, making Sleep Talk a good fit.

Checks & Counters

~ Should mention that getting SR up as early and long as possible is a nice way to checkmate Victini

~ Dugtrio deserves a special mention for quickly dispatching Victini locked into V-create.

~ Need more emphasis on how V-create can be used against Victini (without Trick Room), since it leaves it vulnerable to revenge-kills. Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, and Gengar for instance, don't even need Scarf to revenge Victini after the speed / special drop. Scarf Mence can attempt an Moxie Outrage sweep.

~ Although rare, physically defensive Hippowdown can remove the Sun-boost and stall out Scarf Victini's V-create. Caution readers to be wary of Final Gambit, though.

Thanks for the thorough read-through of this analysis Pocket!

[jc104]

Yeah I shouldn't have approved this before it was finished sorry.

Anyway it looks fine now. Please add Tyranitar to Checks and Counters. It can actually take a Brick Break from the scarf set, and is notable for its ability to Pursuit a -1 Victini.

[Pocket]

Thanks for the changes, Trinitrotoulene.

Yes, plz add TTar back into Checks and Counters. Also mention how Scarf Darmanitan and LO Sawsbuck can easily revenge-kill Victini after V-create, given that the Sun is up.

You also don't need the Ability row, since Victory Star is its sole ability.

QC Approved (3/3)

[Harsha]

I would go ahead and remove Salamence from the Checks and Counters section considering most run Moxie, and even with Intimidate, it's taking 43% - 50% from V-create, while you take an additional 25% if Stealth Rock is on the field. Dragonite is shaky at best, though Multiscale allows you to sponge a bit better. Either way, these are generally too frail to take on Victini in the sun, so I'd just go ahead and remove them.

Oh and ummm....

QC Approved (4/3)

edit: erm ok so to be clear, list them as checks instead of counters

[Pocket]

Harsha, Salamence and DNite are listed as checks, aka revenge killers, not as counters.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat jc104

Yeah I shouldn't have approved this before it was finished sorry.

Anyway it looks fine now. Please add Tyranitar to Checks and Counters. It can actually take a Brick Break from the scarf set, and is notable for its ability to Pursuit a -1 Victini.

Thanks for the reminder. I forgot that I removed it from the list.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Thanks for the changes, Trinitrotoulene.

Yes, plz add TTar back into Checks and Counters. Also mention how Scarf Darmanitan and LO Sawsbuck can easily revenge-kill Victini after V-create, given that the Sun is up.

You also don't need the Ability row, since Victory Star is its sole ability.

QC Approved (3/3)

Originally Posted by Fat Harsha

I would go ahead and remove Salamence from the Checks and Counters section considering most run Moxie, and even with Intimidate, it's taking 43% - 50% from V-create, while you take an additional 25% if Stealth Rock is on the field. Dragonite is shaky at best, though Multiscale allows you to sponge a bit better. Either way, these are generally too frail to take on Victini in the sun, so I'd just go ahead and remove them.

Oh and ummm....

QC Approved (4/3)

edit: erm ok so to be clear, list them as checks instead of counters

Thanks for the QC approvals, everyone!

@Pocket: Will do.

@Harsha: Done that.

I'll write this up once I'm done writing up Tyranitar.