(UU) Trap and Smash (Peaked at #3 @ 1911 on PS! Ladder)

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 12:38:05 AM

An underused RMT by Pokemazter

Introduction

With having finally quit Serebii, I've decided to venture in a tier that I hadn't played in a while. After having had two teams test the waters of a metagame I haven't touched in roughly four months, and the arrival of a new threat in Gothitelle, I built this team. It has brought a fair deal of success, landing me an impressive ladder ranking of 1911, 3rd on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder. With having gained the experience and knowledge in the new underused metagame, I've gotten a total of 5 analyses written, and hope to continue my contributions to the only Smogon metagame close to perfection. With Gothitelle's stay in the tier under question, I felt that getting this team up now would do it best, as there are still kinks to be worked out.

This team relies heavily on Gothitelle's ability to remove checks to the two star Pokemon of the team, Raikou and Heracross. This includes, but is not limited to, Pokemon like Swampert, Rhyperior, Snorlax, Gligar, and Cofagrigus. With these threats removed, both Raikou and Heracross have free reign to spam their powerful STAB moves and clean out the opposing team. The rest of the team simply provides support to both Raikou and Heracross, with Golurk and Roserade providing hazards support turning many 2HKO's into OHKO's. Milotic is there to handle Pokemon like Kingdra and Darmanitan, as both would normally run rampant on the team due to their sheer power. Like many teams in any tier, there are still problems that this team faces. The biggest check to this team at the moment has to be entry hazards. However, they need to be at moderate levels to start causing trouble. Toxic Spikes is arguably the worst of the bunch, as they're the easiest to set up on my team and only one Pokemon resists them. It's not something that needs immediate solving, but they're incredibly annoying. I'm not sure if investing in a Spinner would be good for this team, simply because it sits at such a delicate point where there isn't a hell of a lot wrong with it. So, without further ado, let's take a glance at the team!

Teambuilding Process

.::Original Foundations::.

This was the original variant of the team, which functioned a lot different than the current version. This variant was based around a two-man Volt-Turn core in Mienshao and Raikou in order to quickly get Gothitelle, Gligar, or Snorlax out to shut down checks to Raikou and Mienshao. The first uses of Heracross were for strictly eliminating Sableye and providing backup offence, and was very rarely used. This team only managed to get me to around 1550 points that the Pokemon Showdown! ladder, which did not qualify for the top 100. It had a glaring weakness to Pokemon such as Kingdra, Darmanitan, and Flygon, as they could only be revenge-killed, meaning if any of those three were well-played, my team would most likely lose.

.::A Quick Fix with Mixed Results::.

A single change, Suicune over Snorlax, made a lot of difference. Simply adding something to check Kingdra, Darmanitan, and Flygon made laddering a lot easier, pushing me to exactly 1700 points on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder. However, this version tended to falter after reaching 1700, and even though it didn't lose past 1700 points, I really had to rely on hax, RNG, and outpredicting the opponent in order to win. Toxic Spikes were a major problem for this team, as two layers quickly wore down my Pokemon.

.::Most Problems Solved::.

Yeah, I'm bad for making single-Pokemon changes, but sometimes that's all it really takes to fix a team. Another bulky Water-type replaced Suicune, this time Qwilfish. Its Poison typing and Intimidate ability kept things like the three problem Pokemon mentioned above and new threats such as MoxieCross in line, and it also had access to Spikes, only supporting the team. However, after going over my team at #genvuu, the underused IRC channel, with a few of the tiering contributors and better ladder players, an entire revamp would land the team as it is now.

.::As you see, we Trap and Smash

What was discussed mostly on #genvuu regarding my team, were three key facts: I was using Heracross wrong, I didn't need Mienshao as it could be a fairly unreliable revenge killer, and that Gligar isn't a great Pokemon. With those aspects mentioned, I changed Heracross from a Guts variant into a Scarf Moxie variant, and replaced Mienshao and Gligar with Roserade and Golurk to maintain hazards support. This left me fairly vulnerable to Psychic-type STAB, and even though it's a terrible STAB, I have nothing that resists it, and it still exists, so I dropped Qwilfish for Milotic, who in my opinion, did better against most, if not all physical threats because it could spread burn with Scald. I felt this version was the most solid variant of the team, but it still had its issues - entry hazards, Ground-type STAB, and Golruk being dead weight, and I needed these solved.

.::Returning to its Roots (Sorta)::.

With the return of two familiar faces, RestTalk Snorlax and Gligar, the team really patched up its issues with a lacking Ground-type resist and Nidoking. Replacing Roserade was another Pokemon that really benefits from Gothitelle's ability to trap, Rain Dance Kingdra, as Gothitelle can trap any Empoleon it finds (sorta, they tend to carry Roar) and dish out some heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is now being used over Shadow Ball as it does more for my sweepers, Claydol takes more from Grass Knot, and most other threats that Shadow Ball was used for doesn't like Gothitelle's new coverage options. Kingdra brings a lot to the team as well, decimating opposing Sableye and dismantling most teams with its untouchable Speed and great offensive STAB. This version of the team is still plagued by multiple layers of hazards, but is able to cover most every other threat available to UU. Currently, this version of the team is sitting at 1800 on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder, the highest peak I've gotten on Smogon's new simulator. Shout-out to all those who gave a rate to the previous version of the team, as its them that really helped the team improve.

In-Depth View

Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Shadow Tag
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice

The glue of my team, and a very key component of this team. This new addition to the metagame effectively removes the likes of Slowbro, Swampert, Rhyperior, Gligar, Cofagrigus, leaving two of the most effective Pokemon in the tier, Heracross and Raikou, to sweep at their own leisure. Gothitelle also excels at removing many hazards layers and basically every spinner available to UU, along with Xatu, which also helps maintain offensive pressure for my team, with the opponent having to worry about three layers of Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock hurting their team every switch-in.

Psyshock is the STAB move of choice, beating Pokemon like Snorlax, and thus allowing for Raikou to have one less check during its sweep. Grass Knot also removes Raikou's two best checks, Swampert and Rhyperior, giving Raikou more than enough room to sweep. Thunderbolt is used to beat Flying- and Water-type Pokemon such as Togekiss and Empoleon, most of which delay or prevent a Kingdra or Heracross sweep. Hidden Power Ice beats Gligar, another Pokemon that beats a Heracross sweep. It can be handy for beating Flygon on the switch-in.

Synergy:
: Gligar, Heracross.
: Heracross.
: Snorlax.

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Swift Swim
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse

Because Gothitelle removes walls, the team really didn't need the Spikes that Roserade was supplying. The issue Sableye was providing the team with wasn't solving itself either. With this replacement, Kingdra adds even more emphasis on the "smash" this team is known for. It easily beats out Sableye and helps power through opposing teams once Gothitelle has removed Empoleon. Kingdra also functions as my Darmanitan counter, as its quad resist to Flare Blitz and Rain Dance really make the Fire-type useless. I'm rather satisfied with this change, as it allows me to completely decimate opposing teams with its Johto friends in Raikou and Heracross.

The goal of this set is to set rain up and outspeed any opposing Kingdra via a timid nature. With the rain in place, Kingdra's speed doubles. This provides a boost to its already powerful STAB, Hydro Pump, which is typically used for removing the likes of Bronzong, Cobalion, and other Steel-types that could take a Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Draco Meteor is designed for muscling through the likes of Suicune and other bulky Water-types that could stomach a Hydro Pump. Dragon Pulse was chosen over Surf, as Kingdra is typically going to be spamming its Dragon-type STAB moves once Hydro Pump and the rest of the team has eliminated any stray Steel-types.

Synergy:
: Kingdra serves to check opposing Dragon-types on its own, as once Rain Dance is up, it outspeeds the standard Kingdra sets and Scarf Flygon.

Raikou @ Leftovers
Pressure
64 HP / 228 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice

This variant of the team sports a new Raikou. Having been suggested both the Choice Specs and SubCM sets, I tested both, with SubCM coming out on top. This set wins matches, and with both Rain Dance Kingdra and Scarf MoxieCross, no team can really survive an onslaught from these 3 Pokemon. The Calm Mind boosted pseudo BoltBeam coverage from behind a Substitute can be really devastating, as setting up with Raikou once Rhyperior and Swampert have been removed is enough to win matches, most of which are ragequits. Raikou is a very powerful Pokemon that definitely has a niche on my team.

As mentioned, the goal of this set is to set it up to about +3 in both Special stats and maintain Raikou's substitute. After this, no special attack is really going to be breaking the Substitute, which keeps Raikou free from status thanks to its blistering 353 Speed stat. Calm Mind, as mentioned, brings both Special Attack and Special Defence to levels that turn Raikou into a nightmare for other teams. Thunderbolt is the main spamming move on this set, as there typically aren't any Ground-types around by the time I get to using Raikou. Swampert, Rhyperior, and Gligar are typically removed fairly early in the game, and both Flygon and Nidoking just die to a Hidden Power Ice while they manage to break Raikou's Substitute. Hidden Power Ice is typically just for Nidoking, Flygon, and opposing Raikou, as Zapdos and Rotom-H take more from a STAB Thunderbolt than either take from Hidden Power Ice. I love Raikou. It does this team so much good really.

Synergy:
: Gligar.

Gligar @ Eviolite
Immunity
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Roost
- Earthquake

Another one of those key Pokemon on the team, Gligar is here to take on the likes of Heracross, Flygon, and most other physical sweepers, all while setting up Stealth Rock. It provides more for the team than Golurk ever could, although Gligar lacks the punch that Golurk did. Although the role may seem small, it's extremely important to this team, as it prevents things like opposing Scarf MoxieCross from tearing this team a new asshole. It also acts as a pseudo status absorber, as if I know that a Thunder Wave or Toxic is headed my way, and whatever I have out can't prevent the status move from landing, whether it be via KO or Substitute, Gligar is there to take it, as neither effect it. I know I've called Gligar terrible in the past, but the way its performed on this variant of the team has really changed my perspective on that claim a bit.

Stealth Rock acts as a vital component to my team, causing various amounts of damage to the opposing Pokemon every switch in. It also turns many 2HKOs on the team into OHKOs, as the extra 12% damage can go a long way in pulling off an unboosted sweep. It also makes Fire- and Bug-type Pokemon much easier to deal with, as they tend to lose the most amounts of HP. U-Turn is here so that some momentum can be provided on glaringly obvious switches to Gligar's counters, allowing me to bring in things like Raikou on something like a Suicune. Roost keeps Gligar healthy, and is a major component of the team's durability, as it allows Gligar to tank most, if not every physical attack thrown at the team. Earthquake is there to pick off weakened and slower Steel- and Rock-type Pokemon that Gligar walls, making the lives of its teammates easier.

Synergy:

: Kingdra, Raikou.

: Snorlax.

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Thick Fat
208 HP / 124 Def / 176 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Body Slam
- Crunch

Returning with its partner-in-crime, Snorlax takes on basically every specially attacking threat in the tier, completing a pseudo "SkarmBliss" combo. With its ability, Snorlax also provides the team with an additional Fire-type resistance and serves as the Ice-type switch-in for the team (this is barring Weavile, as Heracross can take about anything it throws at is minus a +2 Ice Punch and threaten back with all of its moves). Snorlax has been a real handy Pokemon to have around, as it solves the Nidoking issue and helps bunches against special attackers that would normally have their way with my team.

The RestTalk strategy used on the previous team returns simply because it's Snorlax's best set. It cures and protects it from status, all while maintaining somewhat of an offensive presence. Body Slam is used over Return for its chance to paralyse, which helps against opposing Scarf Pokemon, rendering them next to useless. Crunch is here over Whirlwind for a few reasons. It beats Gothitelle, who can trap and beat Snorlax with Psyshock, and it allows Snorlax to beat the Ghost- and Psychic-types that it tends to commonly switch in on.

Synergy:
: Gligar, Gothitelle, Heracross.

Heracross @ Choice Scarf
Moxie
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Initially, I was really against using this. I felt that Scarf MoxieCross was severely overhyped and wouldn't be as big of a threat as it had been predicted to be. Jesus Christ, was I wrong. This thing alone is capable of taking out half a team. Paired with Gothitelle, it wins matches. Typically, I use it as a late-game cleaner to just scrape the remaining shit off the walls and win me a match. Once it has nothing to fear, it strikes nothing but primal fear in an opponent, giving them one thought: "Fuck. I've lost.". Unlike Golurk, this is a Pokemon I will gladly advocate. However, this variant doesn't beat Sableye like my previous Guts variant did. Oh well. No sacrifice, no victory.

So here's how this badass unfolds. Gothitelle removes the Ghost-types, Gligar, the whole 9 yards. If it checks Heracross and can be beat by Gothitelle, it's gone. This typically leaves me room to just spam either Close Combat or Megahorn. After a few boosts, the initial choice of move tends not to matter, considering that chances are, nothing's left to really stop it. Stone Edge is there in case Zapdos is still around, which can be a bit of a pain. Earthquake is there because Pursuit is a terrible move to be locked into after removing a Psychic-type, and no viable Psychic-type will be outspeeding me anyways, and is probably already piss weak or dead.

Synergy:
: Kingdra, Snorlax.
: Gothitelle, Snorlax.
: Raikou.

Conclusion

So that there, is the team I've been using as of late. I really like it and I have high expectations for it. My current goal is to hit roughly 1900 points on the UU ladder at Pokemon Showdown!, and hopefully, any changes suggested here will help bring that to light. As mentioned, I'm really looking for a Pokemon with an offensive presence to replace Golurk as my Stealth Rock user because it's piss weak and I just don't like it. I've enclosed a small threatlist below, and hopefully, any rates will help address them.

Threatlist

/ - Entry Hazards

It's mostly just Spikes and Toxic Spikes giving my team hell whenever they can be set up, as I lack a way to remove them. Typically, this isn't an issue until 2 layers of each are up. This doesn't happen often, since Gothitelle tends to remove hazard layers relatively quickly. The additional damage adds up, and two-thirds of my team lacks viable recovery, which leaves them more vulnerable to weaker attacks. Arguably the most solid way to beat this team is to quickly get full hazards up, as it really limits early-game switching, leaving Gothitelle, Raikou, Kingdra, and Heracross much weaker. Pair that with a Pursuit user and a Phazer, and this team is beat. This isn't a "solve it now, I can't win with this happening" type of issue. This is because, as mentioned, Gothitelle really prevents this from ever happening, unless the opposing team is carrying 3 or 4 hazards layers (which never happens and if it did, smashing the team wouldn't be hard). This is one of those issues where fixing it is simply appreciated, but not exactly necessary.

- Suicune

The one single Pokemon that makes my butthole tighten when I see it in team preview, Suicune is a bit of a pain to get off the field. It would seem weird as I carry Raikou and Gothitelle, but many carry Roar, Calm Mind, or a combination of the two. After two or three boosts, I'm pretty much done for, as nothing on my team can phaze it or beat it. Suicune really forces me to play around the opposing team and whittle it down quickly, or enough that I can get Raikou out and mash it up. Because Suicune is relatively common, I'd appreciate having this dealt with rather quickly.

For the Team Stealers

SJCrew · Aug 12th, 2012, 2:17:02 AM

ROFL.

Golurk is a beast sir, you will have to learn to accept that <333

Naw. But since you've taken the liberty of calling me out SO BADLY, I owe an explanation: the reason Golurk works so well on my teams is that they're weak to Heracross and Mienshao. That's it. Golurk isn't even a 'counter' to Heracross per se, since Swords Dance can get right past him unless confusion hax works in your favor. He sets up Stealth Rock, he has important resistances, and DynamicPunch saves my ass a lot. It's really not complicated.

I was initially joking about him being better than Rhyperior, but not about him being useful for your team. You REALLY don't have anything for Heracross or Mienshao either. But since you also have trouble switching into Flygon, you might want to consider replacing him with Gligar with a set of Stealth Rock/U-turn/EQ/Roost. You need U-turn in this meta if you're going to get away from the Goth. Still, SD Heracross would pretty much fuck your team and there's nothing you can do. I'd keep Golurk for now.

Speaking of Milotic, remove the Flame Orb.

Jolly Scarf Hera's CC: 40.7% - 48.1% + 6.25% from Leftovers
Jolly Scarf Hera's CC w/Scale: 27.5% - 32.3% -12.5% from burn.

You're looking at 40% - 44.8% net damage with the burn, and 34.45% - 41.85% with Leftovers. Also, you take damage on idle turns, making Recover stall harder, and forcing you to run out of PP more quickly. If you want to abuse Marvel Scale, you can catch a stray Twave/Scald burn/single layer of Toxic Spikes and get the boost anyway. Just don't try to fool yourself into thinking Milo is bulkier than it is.

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 2:30:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

ROFL.

Golurk is a beast sir, you will have to learn to accept that <333

Even if I'm using it wrong, it's terrible lol. I don't know how you put up with the nonexistent Speed and defences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Naw. But since you've taken the liberty of calling me out SO BADLY, I owe an explanation: the reason Golurk works so well on my teams is that they're weak to Heracross and Mienshao. That's it. Golurk isn't even a 'counter' to Heracross per se, since Swords Dance can get right past him unless confusion hax works in your favor. He sets up Stealth Rock, he has important resistances, and DynamicPunch saves my ass a lot. It's really not complicated.

That would have been extremely useful like 6 hours ago when you suggested it lol. Now that I look at it that way, it is actually keeping me from being smashed by those two. I GUESS I can give Golurk a second chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

I was initially joking about him being better than Rhyperior, but not about him being useful for your team. You REALLY don't have anything for Heracross or Mienshao either. But since you also have trouble switching into Flygon, you might want to consider replacing him with Gligar with a set of Stealth Rock/U-turn/EQ/Roost. You need U-turn in this meta if you're going to get away from the Goth. Still, SD Heracross would pretty much fuck your team and there's nothing you can do. I'd keep Golurk for now.

Tried Gligar, piss weak, but it does its job well. I'll keep Golurk for now. ~~I won't like it, but what choice do I have really lol.~~ I'll keep the Gligar idea in the back of my head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Speaking of Milotic, remove the Flame Orb.

Jolly Scarf Hera's CC: 40.7% - 48.1% + 6.25% from Leftovers
Jolly Scarf Hera's CC w/Scale: 27.5% - 32.3% -12.5% from burn.

You're looking at 40% - 44.8% net damage with the burn, and 34.45% - 41.85% with Leftovers. Also, you take damage on idle turns, making Recover stall harder, and forcing you to run out of PP more quickly. If you want to abuse Marvel Scale, you can catch a stray Twave/Scald burn/single layer of Toxic Spikes and get the boost anyway. Just don't try to fool yourself into thinking Milo is bulkier than it is.

Wow, thats pretty wack. I think I'll just throw leftovers back onto it. Eases the need for Recover every second turn.

Thanks for the rate!

(btw, #TerribleGolurk is a thing now)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Eliteknight

hi, Mazz

seems like you have a solid team so i have only 1 suggestion
maybe trying taunt somewhere on the team to prevent opposing hazards

other than that nm to say

Gothitelle is the only Pokemon on my team that learns taunt (I'm not 100% sure about that), and I'd rather keep the spread I've currently got. Just has more utility for making sweeps easier. Thanks anwyas.

SJCrew · Aug 12th, 2012, 2:49:51 AM

I couldn't edit my post above because my computer is being shit, so I'll post this here: try Dragon Tail over Haze on Milo. Works with hazards, checks Kingdra better, annoys switch-ins by forcing them out with hazards + Dragon Tail damage (ex: opponent wants to get Roserade in, but you Dragon Tail it out into Swampert. Dragon Tail again knowing Swampert can't do anything, and maybe catch Roserade again as they thought you'd go for Scald). This is going to cause a lot of damage over time, even with SR and only one layer of Spikes.

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 4:23:58 AM

My only issue with that is Substitute is typically not broken by Dragon Tail. I'd feel more comfortable running it over Ice Beam, as Scald still hits gligar, one of the few reasons I run Ice Beam on Milotic. I'll put solid consideration into that.

Thanks. Golurk still sucks =P

**Harsha** · Aug 12th, 2012, 6:16:46 AM

Hey,

So Gothitelle has been in the tier for like three days but I'll still try to rate this to the best of my ability because you asked. While I understand you have Choice Scarf Heracross not as a revenge killer, but a late-game sweeper, to me it feels like Raikou's Choice Scarf is a bit redundant. It already outpaces nearly the whole metagame, and if you are trying to revenge something such as Flygon with Hidden Power Ice, you're just setup fodder the next turn. Honestly, I think I would just run a Choice Specs set over yours and instead of focusing on revenge killing, you would look more to sweep or maintain your momentum, something it doesn't have too hard of a time with unless your opponent guesses your set correctly and sends out Gligar or Flygon or something into a predicted Volt Switch.

You're really in a bad position if the opponent can stack hazards against you, and I can see you've even noted this in your threatlist. Obviously it would be best to just outright add a spinner...but that's the hard part. I wouldn't worry too much about that, as momentum from Raikou and getting down your own hazards early always helps out with that, but if you're willing to make a lot of changes, I'd just start with Golurk. I'm not sure why people think Gligar sucks -- maybe it forfeits momentum sometimes, but any wall that you use will do that against some threat. Gligar gives you your Ground immunity and Stealth Rock, and it sponges any single hit a Fighting-type has to offer unless it gets Ice Punch.

Gothitelle is not bad, but with its taking a team spot, it makes it really hard to fit everything into your team (e.g. a revenge killer, entry hazards, defensive core, spinner). I think it's a pretty good team and with a few tweaks it can get farther; try out these changes and tell me what you think. Your bulky combo of Gligar and Milotic would be more than enough to take on those Choice Scarf threats you originally used Raikou to revenge kill, and either way, if your opponent saw Raikou come out on his or her Choice Scarf Pokemon, they obviously know something is up. These suggestions forfeit a bit of momentum, but gaining them back with Raikou is really no problem. Cool team man, and good luck. I hope I helped.

sets

Chimpakt · Aug 12th, 2012, 8:29:24 AM

^^ I agree with everything he says, but I would put U-turn > Taunt on Gligar.

In addition, if you replace Roserade with a Frosslass you maintain your spikes, but you can also somewhat prevent your opponent from stacking hazards against you with Taunt. It's faster, and can serve as a spin blocker if need be.

If you don't feel comfortable using that I suggest giving Roserade at least 56 EVs to outspeed neutral nature Gothitelle (or 144 EVs for + Speed Nature) and get up another layer or hit it for some residual.

BROStime · Aug 12th, 2012, 9:35:20 AM

To check your weakness for hazards you should change your Golurk for Claydol.
Claydol can dodge EQ attacks with levitate, and Rapid Spin away hazards as it wont get hurted by either Spiker or Toxic Spikes. Also it can support your team with laying SR it self, and help your team with Reflect and Light Screen, helping your Roserade out a lot. The only thing that draw this back is that you wont have a spin blocker, to fix this I would have changed Gothitelle to Chandelure as it can both spin block and do Gothitelle's job just as good. And make Raikou a SUbCM set as two Scarfers is not needed.

Changes:

Golurk --> Claydol
Gothitelle --> Chandelure
Scarf Raikou --> SubCM Raikou

Sets:

...

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 1:47:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Harsha

Hey,

So Gothitelle has been in the tier for like three days but I'll still try to rate this to the best of my ability because you asked. While I understand you have Choice Scarf Heracross not as a revenge killer, but a late-game sweeper, to me it feels like Raikou's Choice Scarf is a bit redundant. It already outpaces nearly the whole metagame, and if you are trying to revenge something such as Flygon with Hidden Power Ice, you're just setup fodder the next turn. Honestly, I think I would just run a Choice Specs set over yours and instead of focusing on revenge killing, you would look more to sweep or maintain your momentum, something it doesn't have too hard of a time with unless your opponent guesses your set correctly and sends out Gligar or Flygon or something into a predicted Volt Switch.

You're really in a bad position if the opponent can stack hazards against you, and I can see you've even noted this in your threatlist. Obviously it would be best to just outright add a spinner...but that's the hard part. I wouldn't worry too much about that, as momentum from Raikou and getting down your own hazards early always helps out with that, but if you're willing to make a lot of changes, I'd just start with Golurk. I'm not sure why people think Gligar sucks -- maybe it forfeits momentum sometimes, but any wall that you use will do that against some threat. Gligar gives you your Ground immunity and Stealth Rock, and it sponges any single hit a Fighting-type has to offer unless it gets Ice Punch.

Gothitelle is not bad, but with its taking a team spot, it makes it really hard to fit everything into your team (e.g. a revenge killer, entry hazards, defensive core, spinner). I think it's a pretty good team and with a few tweaks it can get farther; try out these changes and tell me what you think. Your bulky combo of Gligar and Milotic would be more than enough to take on those Choice Scarf threats you originally used Raikou to revenge kill, and either way, if your opponent saw Raikou come out on his or her Choice Scarf Pokemon, they obviously know something is up. These suggestions forfeit a bit of momentum, but gaining them back with Raikou is really no problem. Cool team man, and good luck. I hope I helped.

sets

Thanks for the rate. I have put thought into both a different Raikou and Gligar over Golurk, and am currently testing both a Specs and SubCM variant for Raikou. Once I've got what I feel is enough battles to determine these changes click, I'll fix the team up. Gligar is more than likely what will be replacing Golurk, simply because it addresses my need for a Ground- and Fighting-type switch-in. I'll probably use U-Turn over Toxic, simply to maintain momentum against switch-ins that would beat Gligar and to get away from opposing Gothitelle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Chimpakt

^^ I agree with everything he says, but I would put U-turn > Taunt on Gligar.

In addition, if you replace Roserade with a Frosslass you maintain your spikes, but you can also somewhat prevent your opponent from stacking hazards against you with Taunt. It's faster, and can serve as a spin blocker if need be.

If you don't feel comfortable using that I suggest giving Roserade at least 56 EVs to outspeed neutral nature Gothitelle (or 144 EVs for + Speed Nature) and get up another layer or hit it for some residual.

I'm not exactly sold on using Frosslass over Roserade for one simple reason: Toxic Spikes. Frosslass is never fully guaranteed to be out when Qwilfish or Roserade are out, which means I wouldn't be able to Taunt them. At least with Roserade, I can throw it out basically whenever I'm done with it and remove them. I'll test out the EV suggestion regarding Roserade though. It wouldn't hurt to outspeed the new trapper.

Thanks for the rate!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat BROStime

To check your weakness for hazards you should change your Golurk for Claydol.
Claydol can dodge EQ attacks with levitate, and Rapid Spin away hazards as it wont get hurted by either Spiker or Toxic Spikes. Also it can support your team with laying SR it self, and help your team with Reflect and Light Screen, helping your Roserade out a lot. The only thing that draw this back is that you wont have a spin blocker, to fix this I would have changed Gothitelle to Chandelure as it can both spin block and do Gothitelle's job just as good. And make Raikou a SUbCM set as two Scarfers is not needed.

Changes:

Golurk --> Claydol
Gothitelle --> Chandelure
Scarf Raikou --> SubCM Raikou

Sets:

...

Gothitelle is not going anywhere honestly. It forms such a vital component of my team, that removing it simply breaks the team into pieces. Without it, I cannot as easily remove Raikou's and Heracross's checks, which is the whole goal of the team: eliminate checks, destroy teams. Claydol isn't going to be used over Golurk, simply because Gligar is better suited for the team. It can take the constant abuse, and Claydol's simply terrible (there's a list of like 6 or 7 Pokemon in UU that qualify as terrible, it's one of them). I may have a change of heart, as it can Rapid Spin, but don't count on seeing one on my team anytime soon. Raikou is being tested with both Specs and SubCM sets in my radar.

Thanks for the rate!

While testing sets, I've noticed that Nidoking really dicks with this team, as I don't have anything to take attacks from it, and am only capable of revenge-killing it. Working around Nidoking requires nigh-perfect prediction with a switch to Gothitelle, Raikou, or Heracross, and makes playing against it tough. Any ideas?

alexwolf · Aug 12th, 2012, 3:10:01 PM

Nice team, i can't really rate it, as i don't know much about UU, but why aren't you using Modest / Mild on Raikou? You still outspeed Scarf Flygon with it (by 1 point), and you get better power, and also the ability to carry Aura Shpere (don't know if you need it just pointing out that you can have it). Being outsped by Mienshao isn't a big deal either, because your Golurk hard counters it.

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 4:42:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Nice team, i can't really rate it, as i don't know much about UU, but why aren't you using Modest / Mild on Raikou? You still outspeed Scarf Flygon with it (by 1 point), and you get better power, and also the ability to carry Aura Shpere (don't know if you need it just pointing out that you can have it). Being outsped by Mienshao isn't a big deal either, because your Golurk hard counters it.

It already is running Modest. I've found Extrasensory to be of more use than Aura Sphere because of threats like Mienshao and ScarfCross. Never considered Aura Sphere really.

SJCrew · Aug 12th, 2012, 7:09:56 PM

Btw, if you're wondering what I used the speed on Golurk for in my original spread, it was to outpace Swampert and P2 with min speed and 4 leftover EVs. Swampert can't OHKO with Waterfall and likes to switch in on Golurk a lot, so the confusion into EQ spam weakened Swampert enough for teammates like Raikou to take advantage of. Sometimes they'll even neglect to attack when they get the chance just to set up Stealth Rock, which hangs them in the long run.

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 7:14:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Btw, if you're wondering what I used the speed on Golurk for in my original spread, it was to outpace Swampert and P2 with min speed and 4 leftover EVs. Swampert can't OHKO with Waterfall and likes to switch in on Golurk a lot, so the confusion into EQ spam weakened Swampert enough for teammates like Raikou to take advantage of. Sometimes they'll even neglect to attack when they get the chance just to set up Stealth Rock, which hangs them in the long run.

I'm most likely dropping Golurk anyways. Gligar's done the team better imo. Gives me something to check Flygon and stuffs with.

In other news, that Nidoking issue has gotten worse.

SJCrew · Aug 12th, 2012, 9:10:52 PM

Replace Milotic with Snorlax. Make Roserade offensive LO with 0 Att IVs to thoroughly counter Sableye.

Presto, your team is perfect.

Pokemazter · Aug 12th, 2012, 10:05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Replace Milotic with Snorlax. Make Roserade offensive LO with 0 Att IVs to thoroughly counter Sableye.

Presto, your team is perfect.

Dropping Milotic leaves Darmanitan as a threat however. Would a different bulky water fit there instead, or is Snorlax the best fit? I know that Gligar can't really take two Flare Blitzes from any Darmanitan.

Offensive Roserade might be a good idea. I'll test it.

**RT.** · Aug 12th, 2012, 10:11:25 PM

Well, you could keep Milotic and use Choice Scarf Gothitelle to trap Nidoking.

**Pocket** · Aug 13th, 2012, 4:48:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

Dropping Milotic leaves Darmanitan as a threat however. Would a different bulky water fit there instead, or is Snorlax the best fit? I know that Gligar can't really take two Flare Blitzes from any Darmanitan.

Offensive Roserade might be a good idea. I'll test it.

Yea, basically SJCrew's pro-rate. With Gothitelle doing the wall-breaking, you really do not need Spikes to wear down the opponent's walls anymore.

You can slap Kingdra or Chandelure over Roserade. Kingdra's quad water and fire resistance is surely useful. If you go Timid + max Spe it's a decent check to opposing Rain Kingdra. Swap Shadow Ball on Gothitelle with Thunderbolt to dispatch Empoleon, and your Rain LO Kingdra can sweep unhindered. Chandelure's in the other hand prevents Darmanitan from spamming Flare Blitz while giving you a better answer to Sabeleye than Rain LO Kingdra. Just some offensive checks to Darmanitan you may want to consider.

Pokemazter · Aug 13th, 2012, 8:47:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Yea, basically SJCrew's pro-rate. With Gothitelle doing the wall-breaking, you really do not need Spikes to wear down the opponent's walls anymore.

You can slap Kingdra or Chandelure over Roserade. Kingdra's quad water and fire resistance is surely useful. If you go Timid + max Spe it's a decent check to opposing Rain Kingdra. Swap Shadow Ball on Gothitelle with Thunderbolt to dispatch Empoleon, and your Rain LO Kingdra can sweep unhindered. Chandelure's in the other hand prevents Darmanitan from spamming Flare Blitz while giving you a better answer to Sabeleye than Rain LO Kingdra. Just some offensive checks to Darmanitan you may want to consider.

This clears things up for me. I'll have the OP edited a bit to reflect the changes made. The team looks and performs a lot better than when I first put it up. The threatlist has been greatly reduced, seeing that Entry Hazards are now the only problem this team faces, and there needs to be multiple layers for this team to suffer, which doesn't happen often with Gothitelle trapping Hazards users.

Thanks everyone for their rates! They've really helped. Any new threats that come to mind, make them aware, and I'll see how I can address them.

hotrod280 · Aug 14th, 2012, 2:34:16 AM

I really like this team i've just got a few questions. how do you deal with bronzong with no fire type attacks on the team? Do you just trap with goth and thunderbolt? I imagine thats a 3 hit ko at best on the specially defensive set. Also, there doesnt seem to be enough volt-turning on the team to take advantage of goth's trapping. Are you sure you didnt like the specs raikou set with volt switch? I suppose double switching to draw out rhyperior/swampert is possible but still...

Anyway I like this team and I will try it out myself. gothitelle I think will be really interesting to use in UU. Also is max speed necessary on goth? All those threats you listed it takes out arent outrunning goth any day of the week. Maybe dump that investment into hp for bulk?

Pokemazter · Aug 14th, 2012, 3:28:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat hotrod280

I really like this team i've just got a few questions. how do you deal with bronzong with no fire type attacks on the team? Do you just trap with goth and thunderbolt? I imagine thats a 3 hit ko at best on the specially defensive set. Also, there doesnt seem to be enough volt-turning on the team to take advantage of goth's trapping. Are you sure you didnt like the specs raikou set with volt switch? I suppose double switching to draw out rhyperior/swampert is possible but still...

Anyway I like this team and I will try it out myself. gothitelle I think will be really interesting to use in UU. Also is max speed necessary on goth? All those threats you listed it takes out arent outrunning goth any day of the week. Maybe dump that investment into hp for bulk?

The damage output on Bronzong is yes, a 3HKO on the standard set, which is its most used set. Neither Gyro Ball or Earthquake do a lot of damage to Gothitelle. Most Bronzong leads just get Rocks up and figure Gothitelle isn't terribly bulky and attack it instead of using Toxic. This team doesn't need voltturning to be successful. All I typically have to do is predict the switch, and just double switch into Gothitelle, I wasn't big on the Specs Raikou set simply because it's a lot easier to switch into than the SubCM set, and tends to require more prediction than the SubCM set. The max speed ensures that speed creeping Gligar and Spikes Roserade are outsped and therefore OHKO'd by Hidden Power Ice and Psyshock respectively. I'm pretty sure this allows Gothitelle to outspeed Xatu and smack it around with Thunderbolt. I originally had some of the speed taken out and put into HP, but a max SpA and max Spe set seems to be working best for me.

Pokemazter · Aug 26th, 2012, 12:24:44 AM

Alright, after 122 matches on the ladder, this team has finally broke the goal I set for 1900, landing me in the top 5. Raikou's EVs have been changed to reflect the new spread that came with the new analysis, allowing Raikou to hit harder before and after setup. Keeping the Substitute in tact after taking a Flygon's U-Turn really wasn't worth the lack of power. I've also added Suicune to the threatlist, as it tends to be a real bother to play against. Any suggestions despite this team being near retirement?

**PK Gaming** · Aug 26th, 2012, 12:35:05 AM

So this arguably the best Gothitelle abuse team i've seen yet, so congrats on achieving that.

There isn't anything I can suggest that can deal with Suicune, without dismantling your team. (It's like a gigantic game of jenga). Just play smart, and try to keep Raikou alive and healthy against opposing Suicune. Fortunately they're not that common!!

Pokemazter · Sep 3rd, 2012, 11:59:09 AM

With Gothitelle now banned in the Underused tier, I feel that it's time to retire this team. I've tested a few things in that last slot, but without the guaranteed way to remove that select handful of defensive threats, the team hasn't been as successful. I'd like to thank everyone that's rated this team, as the changes suggested were what really made this team shine.

Exploding Walrus · Dec 16th, 2012, 3:41:56 AM

"For the team stealers" Why thank you sir, amazing team lol

Aug 12th, 2012, 12:38:05 AM	#1
Pokemazter 04/01/13 never forget Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 615 Edmonton, AB	Trap and Smash (Peaked at #3 @ 1911 on PS! Ladder) An underused RMT by Pokemazter Introduction With having finally quit Serebii, I've decided to venture in a tier that I hadn't played in a while. After having had two teams test the waters of a metagame I haven't touched in roughly four months, and the arrival of a new threat in Gothitelle, I built this team. It has brought a fair deal of success, landing me an impressive ladder ranking of 1911, 3rd on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder. With having gained the experience and knowledge in the new underused metagame, I've gotten a total of 5 analyses written, and hope to continue my contributions to the only Smogon metagame close to perfection. With Gothitelle's stay in the tier under question, I felt that getting this team up now would do it best, as there are still kinks to be worked out. This team relies heavily on Gothitelle's ability to remove checks to the two star Pokemon of the team, Raikou and Heracross. This includes, but is not limited to, Pokemon like Swampert, Rhyperior, Snorlax, Gligar, and Cofagrigus. With these threats removed, both Raikou and Heracross have free reign to spam their powerful STAB moves and clean out the opposing team. The rest of the team simply provides support to both Raikou and Heracross, with Golurk and Roserade providing hazards support turning many 2HKO's into OHKO's. Milotic is there to handle Pokemon like Kingdra and Darmanitan, as both would normally run rampant on the team due to their sheer power. Like many teams in any tier, there are still problems that this team faces. The biggest check to this team at the moment has to be entry hazards. However, they need to be at moderate levels to start causing trouble. Toxic Spikes is arguably the worst of the bunch, as they're the easiest to set up on my team and only one Pokemon resists them. It's not something that needs immediate solving, but they're incredibly annoying. I'm not sure if investing in a Spinner would be good for this team, simply because it sits at such a delicate point where there isn't a hell of a lot wrong with it. So, without further ado, let's take a glance at the team! Teambuilding Process .::Original Foundations::. This was the original variant of the team, which functioned a lot different than the current version. This variant was based around a two-man Volt-Turn core in Mienshao and Raikou in order to quickly get Gothitelle, Gligar, or Snorlax out to shut down checks to Raikou and Mienshao. The first uses of Heracross were for strictly eliminating Sableye and providing backup offence, and was very rarely used. This team only managed to get me to around 1550 points that the Pokemon Showdown! ladder, which did not qualify for the top 100. It had a glaring weakness to Pokemon such as Kingdra, Darmanitan, and Flygon, as they could only be revenge-killed, meaning if any of those three were well-played, my team would most likely lose. .::A Quick Fix with Mixed Results::. A single change, Suicune over Snorlax, made a lot of difference. Simply adding something to check Kingdra, Darmanitan, and Flygon made laddering a lot easier, pushing me to exactly 1700 points on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder. However, this version tended to falter after reaching 1700, and even though it didn't lose past 1700 points, I really had to rely on hax, RNG, and outpredicting the opponent in order to win. Toxic Spikes were a major problem for this team, as two layers quickly wore down my Pokemon. .::Most Problems Solved::. Yeah, I'm bad for making single-Pokemon changes, but sometimes that's all it really takes to fix a team. Another bulky Water-type replaced Suicune, this time Qwilfish. Its Poison typing and Intimidate ability kept things like the three problem Pokemon mentioned above and new threats such as MoxieCross in line, and it also had access to Spikes, only supporting the team. However, after going over my team at #genvuu, the underused IRC channel, with a few of the tiering contributors and better ladder players, an entire revamp would land the team as it is now. .::As you see, we Trap and Smash What was discussed mostly on #genvuu regarding my team, were three key facts: I was using Heracross wrong, I didn't need Mienshao as it could be a fairly unreliable revenge killer, and that Gligar isn't a great Pokemon. With those aspects mentioned, I changed Heracross from a Guts variant into a Scarf Moxie variant, and replaced Mienshao and Gligar with Roserade and Golurk to maintain hazards support. This left me fairly vulnerable to Psychic-type STAB, and even though it's a terrible STAB, I have nothing that resists it, and it still exists, so I dropped Qwilfish for Milotic, who in my opinion, did better against most, if not all physical threats because it could spread burn with Scald. I felt this version was the most solid variant of the team, but it still had its issues - entry hazards, Ground-type STAB, and Golruk being dead weight, and I needed these solved. .::Returning to its Roots (Sorta)::. With the return of two familiar faces, RestTalk Snorlax and Gligar, the team really patched up its issues with a lacking Ground-type resist and Nidoking. Replacing Roserade was another Pokemon that really benefits from Gothitelle's ability to trap, Rain Dance Kingdra, as Gothitelle can trap any Empoleon it finds (sorta, they tend to carry Roar) and dish out some heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is now being used over Shadow Ball as it does more for my sweepers, Claydol takes more from Grass Knot, and most other threats that Shadow Ball was used for doesn't like Gothitelle's new coverage options. Kingdra brings a lot to the team as well, decimating opposing Sableye and dismantling most teams with its untouchable Speed and great offensive STAB. This version of the team is still plagued by multiple layers of hazards, but is able to cover most every other threat available to UU. Currently, this version of the team is sitting at 1800 on the Pokemon Showdown! ladder, the highest peak I've gotten on Smogon's new simulator. Shout-out to all those who gave a rate to the previous version of the team, as its them that really helped the team improve. In-Depth View Gothitelle @ Choice Specs Shadow Tag 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest Nature - Psyshock - Grass Knot - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power Ice The glue of my team, and a very key component of this team. This new addition to the metagame effectively removes the likes of Slowbro, Swampert, Rhyperior, Gligar, Cofagrigus, leaving two of the most effective Pokemon in the tier, Heracross and Raikou, to sweep at their own leisure. Gothitelle also excels at removing many hazards layers and basically every spinner available to UU, along with Xatu, which also helps maintain offensive pressure for my team, with the opponent having to worry about three layers of Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock hurting their team every switch-in. Psyshock is the STAB move of choice, beating Pokemon like Snorlax, and thus allowing for Raikou to have one less check during its sweep. Grass Knot also removes Raikou's two best checks, Swampert and Rhyperior, giving Raikou more than enough room to sweep. Thunderbolt is used to beat Flying- and Water-type Pokemon such as Togekiss and Empoleon, most of which delay or prevent a Kingdra or Heracross sweep. Hidden Power Ice beats Gligar, another Pokemon that beats a Heracross sweep. It can be handy for beating Flygon on the switch-in. Synergy: : Gligar, Heracross. : Heracross. : Snorlax. Kingdra @ Life Orb Swift Swim 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Rain Dance - Hydro Pump - Draco Meteor - Dragon Pulse Because Gothitelle removes walls, the team really didn't need the Spikes that Roserade was supplying. The issue Sableye was providing the team with wasn't solving itself either. With this replacement, Kingdra adds even more emphasis on the "smash" this team is known for. It easily beats out Sableye and helps power through opposing teams once Gothitelle has removed Empoleon. Kingdra also functions as my Darmanitan counter, as its quad resist to Flare Blitz and Rain Dance really make the Fire-type useless. I'm rather satisfied with this change, as it allows me to completely decimate opposing teams with its Johto friends in Raikou and Heracross. The goal of this set is to set rain up and outspeed any opposing Kingdra via a timid nature. With the rain in place, Kingdra's speed doubles. This provides a boost to its already powerful STAB, Hydro Pump, which is typically used for removing the likes of Bronzong, Cobalion, and other Steel-types that could take a Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Draco Meteor is designed for muscling through the likes of Suicune and other bulky Water-types that could stomach a Hydro Pump. Dragon Pulse was chosen over Surf, as Kingdra is typically going to be spamming its Dragon-type STAB moves once Hydro Pump and the rest of the team has eliminated any stray Steel-types. Synergy: : Kingdra serves to check opposing Dragon-types on its own, as once Rain Dance is up, it outspeeds the standard Kingdra sets and Scarf Flygon. Raikou @ Leftovers Pressure 64 HP / 228 SpA / 216 Spe Timid Nature - Substitute - Calm Mind - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power Ice This variant of the team sports a new Raikou. Having been suggested both the Choice Specs and SubCM sets, I tested both, with SubCM coming out on top. This set wins matches, and with both Rain Dance Kingdra and Scarf MoxieCross, no team can really survive an onslaught from these 3 Pokemon. The Calm Mind boosted pseudo BoltBeam coverage from behind a Substitute can be really devastating, as setting up with Raikou once Rhyperior and Swampert have been removed is enough to win matches, most of which are ragequits. Raikou is a very powerful Pokemon that definitely has a niche on my team. As mentioned, the goal of this set is to set it up to about +3 in both Special stats and maintain Raikou's substitute. After this, no special attack is really going to be breaking the Substitute, which keeps Raikou free from status thanks to its blistering 353 Speed stat. Calm Mind, as mentioned, brings both Special Attack and Special Defence to levels that turn Raikou into a nightmare for other teams. Thunderbolt is the main spamming move on this set, as there typically aren't any Ground-types around by the time I get to using Raikou. Swampert, Rhyperior, and Gligar are typically removed fairly early in the game, and both Flygon and Nidoking just die to a Hidden Power Ice while they manage to break Raikou's Substitute. Hidden Power Ice is typically just for Nidoking, Flygon, and opposing Raikou, as Zapdos and Rotom-H take more from a STAB Thunderbolt than either take from Hidden Power Ice. I love Raikou. It does this team so much good really. Synergy: : Gligar. Gligar @ Eviolite Immunity 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe Impish Nature - Stealth Rock - U-turn - Roost - Earthquake Another one of those key Pokemon on the team, Gligar is here to take on the likes of Heracross, Flygon, and most other physical sweepers, all while setting up Stealth Rock. It provides more for the team than Golurk ever could, although Gligar lacks the punch that Golurk did. Although the role may seem small, it's extremely important to this team, as it prevents things like opposing Scarf MoxieCross from tearing this team a new asshole. It also acts as a pseudo status absorber, as if I know that a Thunder Wave or Toxic is headed my way, and whatever I have out can't prevent the status move from landing, whether it be via KO or Substitute, Gligar is there to take it, as neither effect it. I know I've called Gligar terrible in the past, but the way its performed on this variant of the team has really changed my perspective on that claim a bit. Stealth Rock acts as a vital component to my team, causing various amounts of damage to the opposing Pokemon every switch in. It also turns many 2HKOs on the team into OHKOs, as the extra 12% damage can go a long way in pulling off an unboosted sweep. It also makes Fire- and Bug-type Pokemon much easier to deal with, as they tend to lose the most amounts of HP. U-Turn is here so that some momentum can be provided on glaringly obvious switches to Gligar's counters, allowing me to bring in things like Raikou on something like a Suicune. Roost keeps Gligar healthy, and is a major component of the team's durability, as it allows Gligar to tank most, if not every physical attack thrown at the team. Earthquake is there to pick off weakened and slower Steel- and Rock-type Pokemon that Gligar walls, making the lives of its teammates easier. Synergy: : Kingdra, Raikou. : Snorlax. Snorlax @ Leftovers Thick Fat 208 HP / 124 Def / 176 SpD Careful Nature - Rest - Sleep Talk - Body Slam - Crunch Returning with its partner-in-crime, Snorlax takes on basically every specially attacking threat in the tier, completing a pseudo "SkarmBliss" combo. With its ability, Snorlax also provides the team with an additional Fire-type resistance and serves as the Ice-type switch-in for the team (this is barring Weavile, as Heracross can take about anything it throws at is minus a +2 Ice Punch and threaten back with all of its moves). Snorlax has been a real handy Pokemon to have around, as it solves the Nidoking issue and helps bunches against special attackers that would normally have their way with my team. The RestTalk strategy used on the previous team returns simply because it's Snorlax's best set. It cures and protects it from status, all while maintaining somewhat of an offensive presence. Body Slam is used over Return for its chance to paralyse, which helps against opposing Scarf Pokemon, rendering them next to useless. Crunch is here over Whirlwind for a few reasons. It beats Gothitelle, who can trap and beat Snorlax with Psyshock, and it allows Snorlax to beat the Ghost- and Psychic-types that it tends to commonly switch in on. Synergy: : Gligar, Gothitelle, Heracross. Heracross @ Choice Scarf Moxie 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Close Combat - Megahorn - Stone Edge - Earthquake Initially, I was really against using this. I felt that Scarf MoxieCross was severely overhyped and wouldn't be as big of a threat as it had been predicted to be. Jesus Christ, was I wrong. This thing alone is capable of taking out half a team. Paired with Gothitelle, it wins matches. Typically, I use it as a late-game cleaner to just scrape the remaining shit off the walls and win me a match. Once it has nothing to fear, it strikes nothing but primal fear in an opponent, giving them one thought: "Fuck. I've lost.". Unlike Golurk, this is a Pokemon I will gladly advocate. However, this variant doesn't beat Sableye like my previous Guts variant did. Oh well. No sacrifice, no victory. So here's how this badass unfolds. Gothitelle removes the Ghost-types, Gligar, the whole 9 yards. If it checks Heracross and can be beat by Gothitelle, it's gone. This typically leaves me room to just spam either Close Combat or Megahorn. After a few boosts, the initial choice of move tends not to matter, considering that chances are, nothing's left to really stop it. Stone Edge is there in case Zapdos is still around, which can be a bit of a pain. Earthquake is there because Pursuit is a terrible move to be locked into after removing a Psychic-type, and no viable Psychic-type will be outspeeding me anyways, and is probably already piss weak or dead. Synergy: : Kingdra, Snorlax. : Gothitelle, Snorlax. : Raikou. Conclusion So that there, is the team I've been using as of late. I really like it and I have high expectations for it. My current goal is to hit roughly 1900 points on the UU ladder at Pokemon Showdown!, and hopefully, any changes suggested here will help bring that to light. As mentioned, I'm really looking for a Pokemon with an offensive presence to replace Golurk as my Stealth Rock user because it's piss weak and I just don't like it. I've enclosed a small threatlist below, and hopefully, any rates will help address them. Threatlist / - Entry Hazards It's mostly just Spikes and Toxic Spikes giving my team hell whenever they can be set up, as I lack a way to remove them. Typically, this isn't an issue until 2 layers of each are up. This doesn't happen often, since Gothitelle tends to remove hazard layers relatively quickly. The additional damage adds up, and two-thirds of my team lacks viable recovery, which leaves them more vulnerable to weaker attacks. Arguably the most solid way to beat this team is to quickly get full hazards up, as it really limits early-game switching, leaving Gothitelle, Raikou, Kingdra, and Heracross much weaker. Pair that with a Pursuit user and a Phazer, and this team is beat. This isn't a "solve it now, I can't win with this happening" type of issue. This is because, as mentioned, Gothitelle really prevents this from ever happening, unless the opposing team is carrying 3 or 4 hazards layers (which never happens and if it did, smashing the team wouldn't be hard). This is one of those issues where fixing it is simply appreciated, but not exactly necessary. - Suicune The one single Pokemon that makes my butthole tighten when I see it in team preview, Suicune is a bit of a pain to get off the field. It would seem weird as I carry Raikou and Gothitelle, but many carry Roar, Calm Mind, or a combination of the two. After two or three boosts, I'm pretty much done for, as nothing on my team can phaze it or beat it. Suicune really forces me to play around the opposing team and whittle it down quickly, or enough that I can get Raikou out and mash it up. Because Suicune is relatively common, I'd appreciate having this dealt with rather quickly. For the Team Stealers Gothitelle @ Choice Specs Trait: Shadow Tag EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Modest Nature - Psyshock - Grass Knot - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Ice] Kingdra @ Life Orb Trait: Swift Swim EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Rain Dance - Hydro Pump - Draco Meteor - Dragon Pulse Raikou @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure EVs: 64 HP / 228 SpA / 216 Spe Timid Nature - Substitute - Thunderbolt - Calm Mind - Hidden Power [Ice] Gligar @ Eviolite Trait: Immunity EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe Impish Nature - Stealth Rock - U-turn - Roost - Earthquake Snorlax @ Leftovers Trait: Thick Fat EVs: 208 HP / 124 Def / 176 SpD Careful Nature - Rest - Sleep Talk - Body Slam - Crunch Heracross @ Choice Scarf Trait: Moxie EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Close Combat - Megahorn - Stone Edge - Earthquake __________________ Ever wanted to contribute to Smogon? Visit the Contributions and Corrections forum! \|Work \| UU Titans project \| UU Research Week Mk.III #5 \| Last edited by Pokemazter; Nov 11th, 2012 at 6:50:55 PM.

Aug 12th, 2012, 2:17:02 AM	#2
SJCrew Believer, going on a journey... Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,802	ROFL. Golurk is a beast sir, you will have to learn to accept that <333 Naw. But since you've taken the liberty of calling me out SO BADLY, I owe an explanation: the reason Golurk works so well on my teams is that they're weak to Heracross and Mienshao. That's it. Golurk isn't even a 'counter' to Heracross per se, since Swords Dance can get right past him unless confusion hax works in your favor. He sets up Stealth Rock, he has important resistances, and DynamicPunch saves my ass a lot. It's really not complicated. I was initially joking about him being better than Rhyperior, but not about him being useful for your team. You REALLY don't have anything for Heracross or Mienshao either. But since you also have trouble switching into Flygon, you might want to consider replacing him with Gligar with a set of Stealth Rock/U-turn/EQ/Roost. You need U-turn in this meta if you're going to get away from the Goth. Still, SD Heracross would pretty much fuck your team and there's nothing you can do. I'd keep Golurk for now. Speaking of Milotic, remove the Flame Orb. Jolly Scarf Hera's CC: 40.7% - 48.1% + 6.25% from Leftovers Jolly Scarf Hera's CC w/Scale: 27.5% - 32.3% -12.5% from burn. You're looking at 40% - 44.8% net damage with the burn, and 34.45% - 41.85% with Leftovers. Also, you take damage on idle turns, making Recover stall harder, and forcing you to run out of PP more quickly. If you want to abuse Marvel Scale, you can catch a stray Twave/Scald burn/single layer of Toxic Spikes and get the boost anyway. Just don't try to fool yourself into thinking Milo is bulkier than it is. __________________ (02:53:55) +shrang: sleep is epic (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: CBtar? (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: that sounds like a not bad set (16:04:25) +Steamroll: nobody likes me @Relados: snowflakes has no sense of humor

Aug 12th, 2012, 2:49:51 AM	#4
SJCrew Believer, going on a journey... Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,802	I couldn't edit my post above because my computer is being shit, so I'll post this here: try Dragon Tail over Haze on Milo. Works with hazards, checks Kingdra better, annoys switch-ins by forcing them out with hazards + Dragon Tail damage (ex: opponent wants to get Roserade in, but you Dragon Tail it out into Swampert. Dragon Tail again knowing Swampert can't do anything, and maybe catch Roserade again as they thought you'd go for Scald). This is going to cause a lot of damage over time, even with SR and only one layer of Spikes. __________________ (02:53:55) +shrang: sleep is epic (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: CBtar? (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: that sounds like a not bad set (16:04:25) +Steamroll: nobody likes me @Relados: snowflakes has no sense of humor

Aug 12th, 2012, 4:23:58 AM	#5
Pokemazter 04/01/13 never forget Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 615 Edmonton, AB	My only issue with that is Substitute is typically not broken by Dragon Tail. I'd feel more comfortable running it over Ice Beam, as Scald still hits gligar, one of the few reasons I run Ice Beam on Milotic. I'll put solid consideration into that. Thanks. Golurk still sucks =P __________________ Ever wanted to contribute to Smogon? Visit the Contributions and Corrections forum! \|Work \| UU Titans project \| UU Research Week Mk.III #5 \|

Aug 12th, 2012, 6:16:46 AM	#6
Harsha Moderator Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 936 Mentor	Hey, So Gothitelle has been in the tier for like three days but I'll still try to rate this to the best of my ability because you asked. While I understand you have Choice Scarf Heracross not as a revenge killer, but a late-game sweeper, to me it feels like Raikou's Choice Scarf is a bit redundant. It already outpaces nearly the whole metagame, and if you are trying to revenge something such as Flygon with Hidden Power Ice, you're just setup fodder the next turn. Honestly, I think I would just run a Choice Specs set over yours and instead of focusing on revenge killing, you would look more to sweep or maintain your momentum, something it doesn't have too hard of a time with unless your opponent guesses your set correctly and sends out Gligar or Flygon or something into a predicted Volt Switch. You're really in a bad position if the opponent can stack hazards against you, and I can see you've even noted this in your threatlist. Obviously it would be best to just outright add a spinner...but that's the hard part. I wouldn't worry too much about that, as momentum from Raikou and getting down your own hazards early always helps out with that, but if you're willing to make a lot of changes, I'd just start with Golurk. I'm not sure why people think Gligar sucks -- maybe it forfeits momentum sometimes, but any wall that you use will do that against some threat. Gligar gives you your Ground immunity and Stealth Rock, and it sponges any single hit a Fighting-type has to offer unless it gets Ice Punch. Gothitelle is not bad, but with its taking a team spot, it makes it really hard to fit everything into your team (e.g. a revenge killer, entry hazards, defensive core, spinner). I think it's a pretty good team and with a few tweaks it can get farther; try out these changes and tell me what you think. Your bulky combo of Gligar and Milotic would be more than enough to take on those Choice Scarf threats you originally used Raikou to revenge kill, and either way, if your opponent saw Raikou come out on his or her Choice Scarf Pokemon, they obviously know something is up. These suggestions forfeit a bit of momentum, but gaining them back with Raikou is really no problem. Cool team man, and good luck. I hope I helped. sets Gligar @ Eviolite \| Immunity Impish \| 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe - Stealth Rock - Roost - Toxic - Earthquake __________________ !!!

Aug 12th, 2012, 8:29:24 AM	#7
Chimpakt Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,295 Cole World!	^^ I agree with everything he says, but I would put U-turn > Taunt on Gligar. In addition, if you replace Roserade with a Frosslass you maintain your spikes, but you can also somewhat prevent your opponent from stacking hazards against you with Taunt. It's faster, and can serve as a spin blocker if need be. If you don't feel comfortable using that I suggest giving Roserade at least 56 EVs to outspeed neutral nature Gothitelle (or 144 EVs for + Speed Nature) and get up another layer or hit it for some residual. __________________ My youtube channel [Pokemon Narrations, Let's Plays] VM me for OU/UU rates. wish i could change my username to chimpact :[

Aug 12th, 2012, 9:35:20 AM	#8
BROStime Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 348 First they ignore you, then laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.	To check your weakness for hazards you should change your Golurk for Claydol. Claydol can dodge EQ attacks with levitate, and Rapid Spin away hazards as it wont get hurted by either Spiker or Toxic Spikes. Also it can support your team with laying SR it self, and help your team with Reflect and Light Screen, helping your Roserade out a lot. The only thing that draw this back is that you wont have a spin blocker, to fix this I would have changed Gothitelle to Chandelure as it can both spin block and do Gothitelle's job just as good. And make Raikou a SUbCM set as two Scarfers is not needed. Changes: Golurk --> Claydol Gothitelle --> Chandelure Scarf Raikou --> SubCM Raikou Sets: ... Claydol @ Light Clay / Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Reflect - Light Screen / Earthquake - Stealth Rocks - Rapid Spin This set will help you alot with hazards as it can help your team tremendously with Reflect, the reason why Reflect is so important is that it will help your Roserade a lot making it defenses doubbled and that will make set up a lot easier. Chandelure @ Choice Specs Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef - Shadow Ball - Energy Ball - Fire Blast / Overheat - HIdden Power [Fighting] / [Ice] Chandelure is going to hit like a train and much harder than Gothitelle. Chandelure can easely do Gothitelles job as it is faster and stronger, the only nitpick is that Shadow Tag isnt released for Chandelure yet. Raikou @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk - Substitute - Calm Mind . Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Ice] This Raikou set will be a lot more helpfull for you as it can set up on a lot off stuff, also now you dont need get those Thunderbolt's dodged by Ground types as you can just set up a sub on the switch. Last edited by BROStime; Aug 12th, 2012 at 10:09:53 AM.

Aug 12th, 2012, 3:10:01 PM	#10
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,613 Greece	Nice team, i can't really rate it, as i don't know much about UU, but why aren't you using Modest / Mild on Raikou? You still outspeed Scarf Flygon with it (by 1 point), and you get better power, and also the ability to carry Aura Shpere (don't know if you need it just pointing out that you can have it). Being outsped by Mienshao isn't a big deal either, because your Golurk hard counters it. __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Aug 12th, 2012, 7:09:56 PM	#12
SJCrew Believer, going on a journey... Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,802	Btw, if you're wondering what I used the speed on Golurk for in my original spread, it was to outpace Swampert and P2 with min speed and 4 leftover EVs. Swampert can't OHKO with Waterfall and likes to switch in on Golurk a lot, so the confusion into EQ spam weakened Swampert enough for teammates like Raikou to take advantage of. Sometimes they'll even neglect to attack when they get the chance just to set up Stealth Rock, which hangs them in the long run. __________________ (02:53:55) +shrang: sleep is epic (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: CBtar? (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: that sounds like a not bad set (16:04:25) +Steamroll: nobody likes me @Relados: snowflakes has no sense of humor

Aug 12th, 2012, 9:10:52 PM	#14
SJCrew Believer, going on a journey... Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,802	Replace Milotic with Snorlax. Make Roserade offensive LO with 0 Att IVs to thoroughly counter Sableye. Presto, your team is perfect. __________________ (02:53:55) +shrang: sleep is epic (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: CBtar? (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: that sounds like a not bad set (16:04:25) +Steamroll: nobody likes me @Relados: snowflakes has no sense of humor

Aug 12th, 2012, 10:11:25 PM	#16
RT. Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,103	Well, you could keep Milotic and use Choice Scarf Gothitelle to trap Nidoking.

Aug 14th, 2012, 2:34:16 AM	#19
hotrod280 Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 10	I really like this team i've just got a few questions. how do you deal with bronzong with no fire type attacks on the team? Do you just trap with goth and thunderbolt? I imagine thats a 3 hit ko at best on the specially defensive set. Also, there doesnt seem to be enough volt-turning on the team to take advantage of goth's trapping. Are you sure you didnt like the specs raikou set with volt switch? I suppose double switching to draw out rhyperior/swampert is possible but still... Anyway I like this team and I will try it out myself. gothitelle I think will be really interesting to use in UU. Also is max speed necessary on goth? All those threats you listed it takes out arent outrunning goth any day of the week. Maybe dump that investment into hp for bulk?

Aug 26th, 2012, 12:24:44 AM	#21
Pokemazter 04/01/13 never forget Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 615 Edmonton, AB	Alright, after 122 matches on the ladder, this team has finally broke the goal I set for 1900, landing me in the top 5. Raikou's EVs have been changed to reflect the new spread that came with the new analysis, allowing Raikou to hit harder before and after setup. Keeping the Substitute in tact after taking a Flygon's U-Turn really wasn't worth the lack of power. I've also added Suicune to the threatlist, as it tends to be a real bother to play against. Any suggestions despite this team being near retirement? __________________ Ever wanted to contribute to Smogon? Visit the Contributions and Corrections forum! \|Work \| UU Titans project \| UU Research Week Mk.III #5 \|

Aug 26th, 2012, 12:35:05 AM	#22
PK Gaming Quiet Thunder God Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,520 Izanagi	So this arguably the best Gothitelle abuse team i've seen yet, so congrats on achieving that. There isn't anything I can suggest that can deal with Suicune, without dismantling your team. (It's like a gigantic game of jenga). Just play smart, and try to keep Raikou alive and healthy against opposing Suicune. Fortunately they're not that common!! __________________

Sep 3rd, 2012, 11:59:09 AM	#23
Pokemazter 04/01/13 never forget Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 615 Edmonton, AB	With Gothitelle now banned in the Underused tier, I feel that it's time to retire this team. I've tested a few things in that last slot, but without the guaranteed way to remove that select handful of defensive threats, the team hasn't been as successful. I'd like to thank everyone that's rated this team, as the changes suggested were what really made this team shine. __________________ Ever wanted to contribute to Smogon? Visit the Contributions and Corrections forum! \|Work \| UU Titans project \| UU Research Week Mk.III #5 \|

Dec 16th, 2012, 3:41:56 AM	#24
Exploding Walrus Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 16	"For the team stealers" Why thank you sir, amazing team lol __________________ :just in2:: justin2::justi n2::j ustin2: