np: UU Stage 7 - Brand New Day

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

I'm curious is uu gonna instaban st chandelure once it's released, or will we wait till it moves up to ou?

...does anything ever get insta-banned?

I really don't think ST Chandy's getting insta-banned from UU. It might have a potent Suspect Discussion, but outside of that I sincerely doubt that Chandelure is leaving UU before a lot of other stuff does.

Chandelure is already being shot down as a UU Suspect nominee for being vulnerable to all hazards and not really getting past a lot of counters (Snorlax, Houndoom, basically anyone faster than it, etc.). Shadow Tag barely does much to help Chandelure; using Shadow Tag causes you to lose an immunity given by Flash Fire (meaning less switch-ins). Considering there are plenty of things that outspeed it in UU, Chandelure is inherently reliant on a Choice Scarf in order to get past things it could switch into using Shadow Tag. Also mind that Chandelure is frail and slow, and Fire/Ghost is a shitty defensive typing. It will die a lot if you try to use it.

[kokoloko*]

Shadow Tag Chandelure would get an insta-suspect, but not an insta-ban. I'm not a fan of insta-bans unless its something like Blaziken dropping (if you get the reference, I'll give you a cookie).

Now, as for Gothithelle... I honestly have no idea. What do you guys want? We've had some discussion about the matter in #genvuu before, but we never came to a consensus. I'm not opposed to a quick-suspect (although it won't be /that/ quick cause I still need to see what people want + get Jabba's y/n), but I'm not opposed to letting it roam free for a while, either. It'll definitely fuck up the brilliant metagame we have at the moment, though, so I'm kinda leaning towards a quick-suspect. Like I said, though, it's up to the masses--so I repeat--what do you guys want?

[Espo]

I don't see the harm in insta-suspect as long as people understand it doesn't always mean it will get banned.

Also people should try it before they something like "It gets Shadow Tag it should be banned!" or "It only has 65 speed it shouldn't be banned!"

[EonADS]

I really can't see any argument for not giving Gothitelle a quick suspect. Shadow Tag is one of the best (if not arguably the best) abilities in the game, and Gothitelle has the right stats and movepool to abuse it effectively. Granted, it has some issues such as a lack of reliable recovery and a severe lack of speed, but SubCM is too dangerous to be given a pass, imo. What's to stop it from coming in on something like Blastoise or Slowbro and getting to +6 with a Sub? It's not utterly broken, but it's worth a fast suspect vote if nothing else.

Ok, I recind my earlier judgement. After playing a few battles against Shadow Tag Gothitelle users, I can safely say that it really doesn't have that much of an impact. SubCM is pretty mediocre. A SubCM set attempted to set up on my Blastoise and I just Roared it out, another tried setting up in tandem with Scrafty and lost, and a third was unable to keep a Sub up against my Swampert and ended up getting picked off by Victini. If anything, Scarf Gothitelle (as ridiculous as that is) is more dangerous; at least it might get a kill or two by trapping Choice users trapped into an unfavorable move or by getting in on weakened offensive Pokemon that it outspeeds, like Shaymin or Zapdos (it does manage to outpace +Natured Base 120's, which is alright I guess). It's also pretty good at picking off Roserade and it does ok against Slowbro, but some other bulky waters (i.e. Milotic, Blastoise, Swampert depending on what Gothitelle is running, Suicune) give it headaches because Base 95 SpA really doesn't cut it for a Scarfer. It should have good utility against Fighting-types, but Scrafty (which is becoming more and more common) beats it one-on-one, and more offensive Hitmontop (that is to say with more than 4 EVs in Attack) can deal a respectable amount of damage with Sucker Punch. Shadow Tag Gothitelle is good, but definitely not gamebreaking.

[Machineae]

Instead of instant suspecting Goth maybe give it a week for people to see her and hopefully account for playing against her. Not everyone on the sim is going to realize "omg ST goth is released shit must prepare". Instantly suspecting it is just stupid. You 1) don't give people a chance to test and it comes down to theorymon with little experience. 2) the general population wouldn't have any experience in dealing with it so you'll catch people by surprise/people won't know how to deal with it.

Chandelure though...idgaf about that. Its a very strong poke- obviously Flash Fire is nice and all but it can abuse ST better than Goth IMO for taking out specific threats.

[DetroitLolcat]

I think people might be a bit too quick to ban Gothitelle, or are at least overestimating the usefulness of Shadow Tag. Just going off of theorymon right now, trapping in UU is a lot harder that it seems, especially with Gothitelle's poor Speed, mediocre typing, and weaknesses to all three hazards. The fact of the matter is that Gothitelle cannot just switch in on a Pokemon, Calm Mind up to +6, and sweep a team since it has limited (but not bad) bulk and few resistances to abuse.

Furthermore, it's obvious that if Gothitelle wants to set up, it's going to have to do so against a defensive Pokemon (good luck setting up on Raikou, Zapdos, etc.), and Gothitelle has some problems dealing with some of the defensive Pokemon in UU.

Roserade outspeeds Gothitelle and either Sleeps it or Sludge Bombs it. If Gothitelle falls asleep, then it's useless. If Roserade is the defensive variant, then Gothitelle could easily succumb to Poison and die to a combination of Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb. It is possible that Roserade can adapt to Gothitelle by running some Special Attack EVs on both sets. Bronzong loses to Gothitelle, however. Maybe Shed Shell will become usable on Zong?

Blastoise can always Roar Gothitelle out, so Gothitelle will not be able to set up or anything. Hitmontop can Toxic the Goth tower, but will ultimately lose to her. Snorlax wrecks Gothitelle of course, and Swampert does decent damage with Earthquake. Swampert can also set up Rocks and Roar Gothitelle out since I doubt he takes too much damage from Psychic.

Slowbro loses to Gothitelle, but Scald probably does decent damage. Since Slowbro already has Regenerator there's no reason why it can't run Shed Shell to get away from Shadow Tag anywat, right? Slowbro has plenty of recovery in Regenerator and Slack Off already.

Porygon2 versus Gothitelle is interesting. On one hand, Porygon2 probably loses to CM Gothy, but Gothy needs significant boosts to outstall Porygon2. It'll be interesting to see how the metagame adapts.

Claydol gets wrecked by Gothitelle I believe, at least by the SubCM one. Maybe this will convince people to stop using Claydol.

Umbreon probably hits it hard with Payback, so that will make Umbreon an even better Pokemon in UU. Milotic loses one-on-one, however. I always thought Milotic was overrated anyway, but other Pokemon can take Milo's spot.

Sableye lols at Gothitelle, and Suicune can boost alongside it and possibly phaze with Roar. Maybe RoarCune will rise in usage?

Gligar will lose to Gothitelle unless it starts running U-Turn or enough Speed to Toxic it before Gothy Subs. So GLigar can easily adapt by running a little more Speed. Registeel can beat Gothitelle one on one too.

Though this is pretty cursory analysis of Gothitelle, it seems to me that UU can definitely adapt to Gothitelle's presence, even if a few Pokemon fall out of favor (This is normal. Just because Milotic won't stay as good as it "should" be doesn't mean that Gothitelle is broken). Plenty of defensive Pokemon have ways to give Gothitelle a hard time, be it phazing, setting up alongside it, using U-Turn, or even having to resort to Shed Shell.

Speaking of Shed Shell, there's no reason why a few defensive Pokemon such as Slowbro can't run Shed Shell over Leftovers if they don't want to be setup bait for Gothitelle. Just because Shed Shell becomes viable over Leftovers doesn't mean that Gothitelle is broken. In fact, if more Pokemon use Shed Shell, that makes Shed Shell more viable. I believe that's called metagame diversity, which is a positive thing.

I know nobody's immediately alleging that Gothitelle is broken, I'm just trying to anticipate some of the arguments that pro-ban folks might use. I am not sure at the moment whether Gothitelle is broken or not; I doubt anyone can know for sure. But my first impulse is that Gothitelle will not be broken, and I want a full test period to test Gothitelle out. It'll be interesting to see how the metagame adapts to the new trapper in town, and a quick-suspect will deprive the UU community of a thorough testing period.

Should Gothitelle be suspected? Probably in the future, but putting Gothitelle on the chopping block as soon as it enters the metagame is a mistake. So I would not like a quick suspecting.

I'd also like to respond to one of the more pro-insta-suspect posts above mine.

Originally Posted by Fat EonADS

but SubCM is too dangerous to be given a pass, imo. What's to stop it from coming in on something like Blastoise or Slowbro and getting to +6 with a Sub? It's not utterly broken, but it's worth a fast suspect vote if nothing else.

SubCM won't be its best set in my opinion, since it's dealt with very easily. If you look at the walls in UU, a lot of them have ways around SubCM Gothitelle be it U-Turn, Seismic Toss, Toxic, or Shed Shell in the most extreme cases.

[SJCrew]

Even in the case of something like ST Chandy, I want to play the game for at least a week to see what it does. We can be on 'suspect watch' or what have you, but starting an early evaluation based on theorymon seems heinous.

Goth is definitely not getting insta-anything, so don't get your panties in a bunch. It has Shadow Tag, but its stats and typing suck.

[superbadd]

Let me just say for a fact that goth is AMAZING. I've been trapping and killing roserade and slowbro left and right. This thing will be top tier no doubt.

[Kaxtar]

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

Now, as for Gothithelle... I honestly have no idea. What do you guys want? We've had some discussion about the matter in #genvuu before, but we never came to a consensus. I'm not opposed to a quick-suspect (although it won't be /that/ quick cause I still need to see what people want + get Jabba's y/n), but I'm not opposed to letting it roam free for a while, either. It'll definitely fuck up the brilliant metagame we have at the moment, though, so I'm kinda leaning towards a quick-suspect. Like I said, though, it's up to the masses--so I repeat--what do you guys want?

This exactly. This meta is soooo much fun at the moment, and Goth has the potential to really hamper some of the balanced teams (which promote to variety) which are common atm. But given its flaws, I think that a test is only fair. Probably the best thing is to put it at the top of the watch-list, and if a significant number of people bitch about it, then the UU senate can vote on it in like 3 weeks or so. just my two cents

[Ace Emerald]

Various thoughts on a few Pokemon:

Current Gothitelle opinion

Cinccino:
This thing is actually pretty good at grabbing momentum. U-turn helps you keep momentum early in the match, and after Normal resists are gone, Tail Slap nukes everything. Seriously, Slowbro is easily 2hko'd. Bullet seed always OHKO's max HP Rhyperior with 1 spikes, and Rock Blast can take care of frailer Ghosts if needed. It can't take hits, but it can sure dish it out.

Honchkrow:
This thing is wonderful. Screw Roost and healing, I'm loving Pursuit on this thing. Good players realize that Honchkrow will decimate their frail sweeper with Sucker Punch, and Honchkrow can eliminate them on the switch, grab the Moxie boost, and be ready for the next opponent. After a few Moxie boosts, even the frailer Fighters start to get OHKO'd.

[superbadd]

specs slowbro is amazing. no one expects it. on top of having a decent 100 SpA it has an incredible special move pool to work with. it's pretty anti meta atm.

[MysticNova]

I honestly haven't found Gothitelle to be much of a problem at all (well I don't play UU as much as OU), but ST Chandy most definitely needs to be banned if it doesn't go OU from usage.
Anyway people really need to use Cobalion more, countless times where I have 6-0'd opposing teams with it. And yeah Specs Slowbro is pretty good.

[SJCrew]

@ Ace: Why Pursuit when you can Brave Bird? Brave Bird is the answer to all things.

[superbadd]

Despite not being uu themselves, cryogonal and kabutops are the spinners in the tier IMO. Hitmontop sucks, that's pretty evident. blastoise has to compete for a slot as a bulky water with so many in the tier and has no offensive presence or reliable recovery. It's really surprising these two aren't uu and claydol, blastoise and hitmontop are...
Battle armor is a great ability on supportive kabutops, a wall being immune to crits is quite valuable. On top of having an excellent attack stat, enough to threaten almost every spin blocker, it also has a very handy priority move. Cryogonal has reliable recovery, giving it a niche as the only spinner in the trier with a recovery move. Cryogonal can also counter special kingdra, Mismagius, roserade, shaymin, zapdos, froslass, and raikou, fairly well. That's pretty amazing given that these are some of the best Pokemon in the tier. It also has access to great support moves in haze and dual screens. Not to mention frost breathe, which prevents special attackers from being able to set up on it.

[Pocket]

Kabutops is among the best offensive Rapid Spinners in UU and RU (in OU it competes with Starmie and Sandslash; in Ubers there's Excadrill), and honestly these types of Rapid Spinners are the best because it does not forfeit momentum and can do more than spinning Defensive spinners are so dependent in the opponent not having a bulky Ghost-type, which offensive Rapid Spinners can easily dispatch to clear hazards (although Tentacruel in OU isn't too shabby, and Blastoise works as long as people are using Chandelures and OTR Cofagrigurs). Defensive spinners are most appropriate for semi- and full-stall teams who can out-live the spin-blocker's duration.

Weak Armor and even Swift Swim are better options on an offensive mon like Kabutops, though. After a +1 Speed boost it forces the opponent to bring in their scarfer or eat a LO Stone Edge (possibly even a SD boost)

[hilarious]

This is what I think on all the spinners I have had experience with (in order of most use) Kabutops, Cryogonal, Blastoise, Claydol and Hitmontop.

Kabutops is awesome for defensive teams that struggle with Togekiss, which means Kabutops is awesome for defensive teams. I use max hp and speed with an Adamant nature which lets Stone Edge have a chance to OHKO more offensive Togekiss after SR which is cool. Togekiss rarely run more speed than me while it takes at least 3 and usually 4 Air Slashes to KO. Aura Sphere won't OHKO me usually. It is the only spinner that sets up Rocks which is super cool except Claydol and Smeargle I believe.

Cryogonal is a little overrated in my opinion but in any case you shouldn't be using the on set site unless you are full stall which is fun. I use max hp and speed (again!) with a twist though, I use Life Orb as well even though I have no offensive investment which makes me even stronger than 252 Spa Cyro. You still have recovery in Recover and insane special bulk, LO Zapdos won't KO with Heat Wave after Stealth Rocks although I might have just got a low damage roll. Ice Beam and HP Ground hit plenty of stuff including Chandelure (a common blocker) for good damage including an OHKO on Nidoking.

Blastoise has a very short life span generally unless you use Rest+cleric support which just about nobody does. It just needs recovery somehow which is hard to get but at the same time it has to tank a gazillion attacks, including UU's 20 Fire Types, Nidoking, Flygon, etc etc. It spins admirably with Foresight if you are good at guessing.

Claydol is really underrated in my opinion, everyone likes to bash on it while giving no credit for any of its pros. It is a great counter to Raikou with EQ, that alone should catch your attention because Raikou is dominant and Snorlax/Swampert (pray for no HP Grass) are the only other full stops to it. It is also a spinner setter which is rare and a big boon. No Pokemon takes less damage from entry hazards bar Magic Guard users, think how that contributes to Bronzong being pretty good and now realize Claydol does that too while being able to spin. It has many resistances allowing it to check a load of stuff, including Cobalion, Flygon, Mienshao and Rhyperior, you just have to learn early on not to use Claydol to try and counter these guys unless you are sure of the move they are going to be using allows a switch in.

Hitmontop is OK at best, it ends up being set up fodder for things sometimes and is weak physically without Intimidate. It is still a spinner still which means it will see use.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

@ Ace: Why Pursuit when you can Brave Bird? Brave Bird is the answer to all things.

A little late, but I find the trapping invaluable. I could just roast the switch with Brave Bird, but I fare pretty well vs a switch with +1, LO Sucker Punch hurts. And I've eliminated a problem Pokemon, for example Victini or Chandelure. I just think Honchkrow has better options than Roost, I don't think it has much a place outside Sub Roost.

[fatty]

yeah i don't what all the bashing on claydol is about but its easily my favorite spinner in uu. kabutops is a close second, but it just doesn't have the resistances and ease of getting in like claydol does, but it works perfectly for offense. claydol has been the most reliable spinner for me, and i honestly use it on about half my teams. as stated, the ability to set sr + spin is invaluable by letting me kill 2 birds with one stone. it also proves to be a very useful check to most electrics and fighters, who's typings hold some of the most fearsome threats in uu.

[SJCrew]

I would personally not advocate using Kabutops on an offensive team, since it is not a good offensive Pokemon in and of itself! It has 115 base Attack and Rapid Spin, that's pretty much it. It can also switch into Victini and Darmanitan if your opponent is bad at predicting. It has so many weaknesses that you often have to choose between attacking and spinning. Not good! Blastoise gets a lot more free turns to do its job, which is pretty important. Even if there are better bulky Water-types in the tier, if you want it with Rapid Spin, there is only one Pokemon you can go to. Try using him with Wish support!

[fatty]

offense isn't about taking hits most of the time, it's about dealing them out and keeping up the offensive pressure so your opponent doesn't have time to retaliate or execute their game plan. thus, in my humble opinion, i will most likely always use kabutops > toise on offense. it's speed when ev'd right outruns most defensive pokemon, making it easier to spin in a jam, and his high atk stat that you mentioned actually pulls a ton of weight by keeping up that momentum and allowing fewer switch-ins. blastoise, on the other hand, will only slow down a more offensively oriented team seeing as it's strongest attack is a piss weak scald. simply put, kabutops can put opponents on their toe's and blastoise, well, can't.