ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Rediamond]

Originally Posted by Fat Attraction

When Attracted, a Pokemon has a 50% chance not to attack. Infatuation will also make using particularly cruel or devious attacks difficult, with the exception of Dark-type Pokemon who find such trickery a form of flattery. Attraction can only occur between Pokemon of different genders. Each Attraction level has a 1/3rd chance of being selected when it is inflicted. Attract has three levels of severity.

Attraction Stage lowers by 1 at the beginning of the Pokemon's action until it hits 0. When a Pokemon receives 16 or more damage from a single attack, its Attraction stage is lowered. Attract is removed if the Pokemon is switched out. If a Pokemon loses an action to Attract, its Attract counter goes down by 1. No energy is expended.

Intense Attraction: Lasts for four (4) actions.
Severe Attraction: Lasts for three (3) actions.
Slight Attraction: Lasts for two (2) actions.

As you can see, Attraction is basically the same as Confusion, with the exception that it does not deal damage and is far harder to set up. Indeed, both Pokemon must be of opposite genders and in the same egg group. That means that they can probably be attracted back.

It is also far too easy to strike for over 15 damage, so the most hits you will realistically get off with Attract is one incacipitation. Even if you roll for 4, between an incacipitation one turn and a strong attack on the other, the attract is gone in two actions with only one incacipitation probable. This actually makes it weaker than Double Team, meaning some sort of a buff would be very much appreciated.

[Objection]

Actually, the bit about being in the same egg group is not supposed to be there.

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat zarator

Maybe by raising the bonus damage they bring? Like, more than 1.75?

I think slimply increasing the damage to +2 per boost would be enough, it's good enough to help against many neutral attacks and even reduce the power of SE hits a bit, this does not applies to speed though since even at x1.75 it's incredibly powerful

[Imanalt]

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

I think slimply increasing the damage to +2 per boost would be enough, it's good enough to help against many neutral attacks and even reduce the power of SE hits a bit, this does not applies to speed though since even at x1.75 it's incredibly powerful

I want to say i agree with boosting damage to +2 damage. (for reference, in LJ's example of damage increase from swords dance, it becomes +22 which is still in line with damage from a strong or SE attack)

I'd also like to suggest this gets applied to BAP. Just about every other boost of any kind does, and i dont see any reason not to. (this would also serve as another slight boost as youre much more likely to use an SE attack than a resisted attack)

Honestly we could just leave speed as is, it doesnt need to be the same...

[AOPSUser]

Originally Posted by Fat Rediamond

As you can see, Attraction is basically the same as Confusion, with the exception that it does not deal damage and is far harder to set up. Indeed, both Pokemon must be of opposite genders and in the same egg group. That means that they can probably be attracted back.

It is also far too easy to strike for over 15 damage, so the most hits you will realistically get off with Attract is one incacipitation. Even if you roll for 4, between an incacipitation one turn and a strong attack on the other, the attract is gone in two actions with only one incacipitation probable. This actually makes it weaker than Double Team, meaning some sort of a buff would be very much appreciated.

In-game, attraction literally lasts until one side switches.

Perhaps we could do that? Or do this?

4a: 33%
5a: 33%
6A: 33%
Immobilization does not affect the counter.
You have to deal 30 damage to break attraction.

I can see that working.

[Objection]

Petition to give Volbeat and Illumise the Levitate trait for the same reason that the likes of Beedrill and Venomoth have it

Elevator Music
Gerard
Objection
Zarator
AOPSUser
dogfish44
SoS
And possibly many more ...

EDIT by Zarator: I sign
SoSedit: People use them? Eh, why the hell not. Ka-signed.

[AOPSUser]

Signs petition.

It's not like they're gonna overpower anything anytime soon (coughBeedrillcough).

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat AOPSUser

In-game, attraction literally lasts until one side switches.

That already happens, altough you need the item: Destiny Knot

[Dogfish44]

Originally Posted by Fat Objection

Petition to give Volbeat and Illumise the Levitate trait for the same reason that the likes of Beedrill and Venomoth have it

Elevator Music
Gerard
Objection
And possibly many more ...

Yeah, no point in objecting here. If Illumise and Volbeat become "OP" from this, I´ll eat my hat.

*signs*

[Deck Knight]

So it's been a while since my last post, right?

As far as Stones:

I'm trying to make their boosts fairly uniform and based on Abilities, but I can see some of the issues with Water Stone. Dawn Stone I think is fine, it boosts Gallade's SpA which helps make it a decent mixed threat, but Gallade's Special Movepool isn't as expansive as its physical movepool.

I think lowering Water Stone to 1 HP WA recovery and a half-activation of Rain Dish will work. Full Rain activates it fully, but in Sun Ludicolo gets instant Solarbeam and the 1 HP gain.

Shiny Stone can probably be lowered to +5 Acc so it still kicks up the few attacks that need it, without being OP.

An innovative solution for Dawn Stone might be a 1 Atk/SpA Rank Boost That increases the BAP of Ghost and Fighting moves (Froslass and Gallade's added types) by 2. I think I like that more, since it keeps the relative boost level to Froslass and Gallade the same (Froslass does have a Fite move, Wake-Up-Slap, and it'd make the natural HP Fite choice better. Gallade gets Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak, meaning it boosts all its priority moves)

So updated:


Dawn Stone: Increases the Attack of affected Female Pokemon by one (1) Rank an the Special Attack of affected Male Pokemon by one (1) Rank. Increases the Base Attack Power of Fighting-type and Ghost-type attacks by two (2).

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Snorunt, Kirlia, Froslass, Gallade


Shiny Stone: Increases the Base Accuracy of all moves used by the affected Pokemon by five (5). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Togetic, Togekiss, Roselia, Roserade, Minccino, Cinccino.


Water Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Torrent activated. Hydration, and / or Swift Swim are also activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Rain Dish and Water Absorb regardless of weather, granting one (1) HP per action [In Rain, Rain Dish will increase to its normal 2 HP/action). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Shellder, Cloyster, Staryu, Starmie, Eevee, Vaporeon, Lombre, Ludicolo, Panpour, Simipour.

On Focus Energy:

I think Focus Energy I could probably morph into an always-crit for 6 actions with an increased EN cost. It does help several fairly strong mons like Nidos, Conkeldurr, and Hydreigon, but it also buffs some weaker/niche mons like Beedrill, Raticate, and Marowak (2-crit Bonemerrang is +4 BAP), not to mention Kingdra.

Revamp:

Focus Energy: The Pokémon charges an aura that guides the user to an opponent’s weak point, guaranteeing a critical hit on each attack for the next six (6) actions.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 12 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

And finalized Stones:


Dawn Stone: Increases the Attack of affected Female Pokemon by one (1) Rank an the Special Attack of affected Male Pokemon by one (1) Rank. Increases the Base Attack Power of Fighting-type and Ghost-type attacks by two (2).

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Snorunt, Kirlia, Froslass, Gallade


Dusk Stone: Increases the Base Attack Power of Dark-type and Ghost-type moves by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Murkrow, Misdreavus, Honchkrow, Mismagius, Lampent, Chandelure.


Fire Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Flash Fire and / or Blaze activated. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Vulpix, Ninetales, Growlithe, Arcanine, Eevee, Flareon, Pansear, Simisear.


Leaf Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Overgrow activated. Enhances Chlorophyll to triple (3x) the affected Pokemon's Speed when activated. Increases the Base Attack Power of all attacks with "Leaf" in their name by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Gloom, Vileplume, Weepinbell, Victreebel, Exeggcute, Exeggutor, Nuzleaf, Shiftry, Pansage, Simisage.


Moon Stone: Increases the Base Attack Power of Normal and Psychic-type moves by two (2), and prevents damage from recoil on all moves. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Nidorina, Nidoqueen, Nidorino, Nidoking, Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, Clefairy, Clefable, Skitty, Delcatty, Munna, Musharna.


Thunderstone: Increases the Base Attack Power of Electric-type recoil moves by two (2). Enhances Lightningrod to raise Special Attack by two (2) stages when activated. Continuously activates Volt Absorb, granting two (2) HP per action. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Pikachu, Raichu, Eevee, Jolteon, Eelektrik, Eelektross.


Shiny Stone: Increases the Base Accuracy of all moves used by the affected Pokemon by five (5). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Togetic, Togekiss, Roselia, Roserade, Minccino, Cinccino.


Sun Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Chlorophyll, Solar Power, and Leaf Guard activated, regardless of weather. Solar Power does not damage the Pokemon unless Sunny weather is on the field. Leaf Guard does not prevent sleep from Rest unless Sunny weather is on the field. Solarbeam has no charge and its full power in all weathers. Morning Sun, Synthesis, and Moonlight are at their full power, regardless of weather. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Gloom, Bellossom, Sunkern, Sunflora, Cottonee, Whimsicott, Petilil, Lilligant.


Water Stone: The affected Pokemon enters battle with Torrent activated. Hydration, and / or Swift Swim are also activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Rain Dish and Water Absorb regardless of weather, granting one (1) HP per action [In Rain, Rain Dish will increase to its normal 2 HP/action). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.

Cost: 8 | Affected Pokemon: Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Shellder, Cloyster, Staryu, Starmie, Eevee, Vaporeon, Lombre, Ludicolo, Panpour, Simipour.

EDIT: More changes:

Made Plus, Minus, and Stench Traits. Gave Volbeat and Illumise Innate Levitate.

[Elevator Music]

Stones etc are cool, but here are two things that have been bugging me lately:

1) Smoke Ball
Smoke Ball's current effect is the following:

Smoke Ball: The Pokemon negates all of its own accuracy drops, all of its opponent's evasion boosts, and the effects of an opponent's Double Team. Actions used evasively always fail against the Pokemon. If the opponent uses Dig, Bounce, or similar moves, the carrier of Smoke Ball always strikes just before the opponent can take evasive action, even if it would normally be slower.

I don't really like the way that this is currently written. I like that the overall effect of it -- allowing the holder to bypass evasive actions and accuracy drops -- but I have a problem with the last sentence. The way it's written now allows things like Focus Punch and combination attacks to strike before damaging evasive moves. That's not necessarily "wrong," but I would prefer it to just allow the holder to strike through Dig/etc without this shifting of priority, because to me it feels more natural.

Thoughts?

2) Attract (vs. Confuse Ray)

I don't really have a problem with Attract itself, but the other day I noticed that Attract has a higher Energy Cost than Confuse Ray. To me that seems silly. Regardless of the difference in distribution, it's pretty undeniable that Confuse Ray is far superior to Attract (can hit way more pokes and has a much better effect unless you're holding Destiny Knot). To remedy this can we either raise the cost on confusion moves, lower the cost on Attract, or buff Attract somehow to make it actually worth it? I don't really care either way, so if other people can come to a consensus I'll probably be fine with it.

[Imanalt]

on 1: i could actually support smoke ball causing you to (if you would hit while underground) hit immediately after they surface, i think this is much more reasonable...

2. clearly something needs to change there, im not sure if it should be the mechanics of attract or something else though

[EndQuote]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

on 1: i could actually support smoke ball causing you to (if you would hit while underground) hit immediately after they surface, i think this is much more reasonable...

What about extended Dig/Dive/Whatever?
Would the action be delayed?

[Eternal Drifter]

Here are the stats for Attract and Confuse Ray.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight from DAT

Attract: The Pokemon flirts with an opponent, releasing pink hearts from its body. It causes opponents of the opposite gender to be infatuated with the Pokemon and reduces their chance of attacking or otherwise using their attacks productively.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Confuse Ray: The Pokemon shoots out a bright beam of light towards its opponent, causing it to become confused. The light can be spread out, but this will decrease its range.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Ghost | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Looking at the information on attraction Rediamond posted at the top of the page, I'd say that something needs to be changed for Attract. Perhaps a significantly longer time for attraction? Perhaps measured in rounds instead of actions? Granted, either of those would make the Destiny Knot need a revising...

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat EndQuote

What about extended Dig/Dive/Whatever?
Would the action be delayed?

I was actually thinking about that, just make the attack do damage regardless of the evasive state of the mon, ala no guard hitting a flying mon, problem solved

Increasing attract by 1 action or maybe just reducing it's energy could work (in another vain just allow gay mons and everything should be fine)

[Dogfish44]

Originally Posted by Fat Dogfish44

OK, new issue: Weather. My issue is found in this post. I'll quote the issue:

Now then, the issue here should be obvious. It has minimal effect in singles (Gravity might have an effect, and Castform might be changing weather to pick up an immunity), but it changes Doubles and Triples play using weather quite a bit.

Changing the weather at a critical moment CAN be a key factor in a win. See Solarbeam, Thunder, Hurricane, Weather Ball, and Morning Sun amongst others. There is no reason to use a system which restricts completely legitimate strategies simply because they are ending a round with it. I believe the intent is to continue using the Round System - where weather lasts 4 rounds (Which I understand, it's useful to prevent weather being far more powerful in triples than singles).

However, the same effect can be achieved in other ways. I'm proposing an alternative solution:

• All global field effects last for a specified number of Actions - 4 Rounds would be given a time of 12 Actions [8 in Triples].
• Global Field effects would count down each action immediately after it's use. So if you used Rain Dance in a Doubles on Action X, the counter for Rain Dance would drop to 11a at the end of Action X.

Support/Opinions/Questions are requested!

This recieved a good amount of support when I brought it up, but it was quickly ignored when stones were added. Thus, I'm bringing this back up, so we can fix what appears to be a very flawed rule.

[Objection]

<Onion_Bubs> I hereby support the "Dogfish's proposal" motion.

[Pwnemon]

OK, I've got a beef with traits.

I've noticed more and more and more abilities becoming traits lately. Why? Because, when you stop to think about it, every ability is a trait! the ability to go twice as fast in sun is just as much of a "trait" of a pokemon as the ability to levitate. there's no ability that's "more integral" or what have you. Aggron has a rock hard head. It also weighs a lot. It's also resistant to OHKO moves. Why is one of these (heavy metal) considered to be more important to the understanding of Aggron than the others?

Put simply, it's dumb how certain abilities are given the designation of "trait" and thus basically given a "free pass" of ability-related things. they can't be skill swapped, or Gastro Acided, and you can challenge the hall and other one-ability facilities with both a Trait (or two!) AND an ability. It's nonsensical. Nintendo certainly doesn't say "THIS ABILITY IS MORE OF AN ABILITY THAN THAT ABILITY." If I can steal your ability to cause poison on contact, I can certainly steal your ability to levitate. Furthermore, Pokemon with both a trait and skill swap are allowed to use skill swap and steal an opponent's ability without giving up their own. Everything in Pokemon can be flipped on its head - even protect. I'm not a fan of the Trait classification giving certain abilities a "diplomatic immunity" from this principle.

If we're concerned about removing the trait classification because of Slow Start, Defeatist, or Truant, you could easily just write in the ability text "this ability is active even in abilities = off battles"

EDIT: also i support df's proposal

[Orcinus Duo]

Sort of similar to df's proposal (but not really), it's really silly how speed orders are decided at the beginning of the round and can't be changed in the middle. In my opinion, speed drops should be applied the same way as attack, defense drops, and this would add a great deal more of strategy to battles.

(and damnit stop cheating me out of my almost foolproof plans to foil atheno)

[EndQuote]

Not surprisingly, I'm seconding Orcinus's proposal. The way it is now is just silly.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Pwnemon also raises a good point.

[Pwnemon]

i assume by round you mean action..?

anyway, although it breaks ingame precedent, i can't think of any scenario in which changing speed order mid-action could cause a paradox so i feel safe putting SUPPORT behind this

[Elevator Music]

Speed order isn't decided at the beginning of a round, it's decided at the beginning of an action (if I'm wrong here then I agree with you though!). That's how it works ingame too.

You say changing it provides more strategy, but I don't think it would. It just changes the strategy that's best to use. I'm not dead set against it or anything, I just think its easier to use ingame precedent.

[Orcinus Duo]

Yeah I derped and said round when I meant action.

Strategy is an arguable point and won't bring any conclusive results. I guess it just violates basic logic, which is my biggest gripe. If you thunder wave an opponent, there is no reason for the speed drop paralysis to set in at the end of the action only, while the paralysis chance is already there. It's a bit like saying "it's easier to give levitate complete immunity to ground type moves", which we obviously changed. ASB logic should in this case take precedence over ingame precedence and "easier to ref"

[Orcinus Duo]

09:45 orcinus i'm going to put this in feedback, jay
09:45 orcinus that okay with you?
09:45 *** SubwayJ quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)

uh okay

All right, so after a discussion with Jay on IRC, I think we'd like to propose an idea for an ASB magazine. The original idea was that we could have an article in the smog, but since we get next to no recognition from the rest of Smogon, I proposed that we could publish a monthly version of the smog in this forum. Here is how I envision it...

Sections:
Indepth analysis of one mon
Recap of changes, both proposed and implemented, for that month
Tournament recap (if applicable)
ASB Puzzles (in which a scenario is given, you go second, and you have to find a way to win the match. Readers submit answers to the magazine, with possible CC prizes)
Opinion articles (for instance, we could have a head-to-head section where two people express their views on thing, like Dogfish vs IAR on collosoil OP)
Interview with experienced battlers, detailing their thoughts on the game, and what needs to be changed, or perhaps teases for upcoming events (zarator, deck)
Humor Section (i.e., best moments on irc)

Considering we have a considerable amount of writers in #capasb (engi, patamon, veemon, jay and myself), I think this could be a great way to pass the time, as well as perhaps decipher some of the mystery clouding this forum to outsiders (and maybe get a few members to join too!). Thoughts?

[SubwayJ]

Obviously supporting all of this!

Would be glad to help with all and any parts of it!