Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

[Kevin Garrett]

Smogon Tour will be featuring a suspect test in the BW2 OU metagame this weekend for Garchomp and Sand Veil. Garchomp will be reintroduced to OU with Rough Skin, while Sand Veil will be banned from every Pokemon that has access to the ability. There will be a ladder set up on Pokemon Showdown! for anyone that wants to experiment and develop the metagame leading up to the Tours. The schedule for the tests are listed below:

Saturday, September 1st 2012 at 4 PM EDT - BW2 Suspect (on Pokemon Showdown!)
Sunday, September 2nd 2012 at 2 PM EDT - BW2 Suspect (on Pokemon Showdown!)

The results of this test will be studied and decided on by the OU council. This thread will serve as a discussion for the development and observation of the metagame. The outcome of the test and this discussion will have an impact on the council's decision.

Note: There will not be a vote or imminent decision on this test. This is just to give us all a glimpse at a possible future metagame.

[SpecsX]

Whoa. This is big news, but I don't have to tell anyone this. How will this apply to Snow Cloak, and how will this test affect other suspects people want retested?

[ThisMysteriousGuy]

Wow. Seems Cherub's idea really did happen :o
Anyways, I really do think this is a great idea. Garchomp isn't as broken now with Rain everywhere and with the introduction of Rough Skin. I feel Blaziken should get similar treatment due to more rain thanks to BW2 changes.

[Lavos Spawn]

This should affect the metagame in an extremely positive manner, should the proposed changes go through. Garchomp isn't broken without its hax-inducing ability, Sand Veil, and should bring with its reintroduction to OU much more diversity among teams and a new niche as a speedier Choice Scarf user than both Salamence and Landorus. As for the Sand Veil blanket ban, I'm very proud of Smogon's OU council that they're taking the first step towards banning all the BS that currently exists and is actively abused every single battle. Sand Veil is an agent of hax, and nothing more; I'm glad to see that it's being considered for removal, and with the introduction of BW2 tutors giving Gliscor an option of using Roost without Sand Veil, it's the perfect time to implement this new ban. Finally, no more AcroGlisc ruining competent battlers' fun.

[Jukain]

This seems pretty cool. I imagine Garchomp will be great on rain and YacheChomp will be excellent against the Therian genies.

[Skore]

Garchomp means more call for Mamoswine and Weavile, which can only be a good thing.

I am really stoked that tests like this are happening and they chose a "fan favorite" to start off with.

Even without Sand Veil hax, Sub + 3 attacks Chomp is something scary to have to switch in to.

[UltiMario]

We too afraid of Sand Veil to actually retest Chomp in its entirety in the current metagame?

These results are going to be inconclusive as hell. They don't actually tell us if Chomp would be too powerful in the current metagame or not because the only set that actually brought it to Ubers (SubSD) is essentially banned in this format. Of course it won't be anywhere close to overpowering.

I guess my point is moot if (a currently secret) secondary test is planned with Sand Veil Chomp fully legal, though.

[Jukain]

Originally Posted by Fat UltiMario

We too afraid of Sand Veil to actually retest Chomp in its entirety in the current metagame?

These results are going to be inconclusive as hell. They don't actually tell us if Chomp would be too powerful in the current metagame or not because the only set that actually brought it to Ubers (SubSD) is essentially banned in this format. Of course it won't be anywhere close to overpowering.

I guess my point is moot if (a currently secret) secondary test is planned with Sand Veil Chomp fully legal, though.

I agree with Ulti on this one: Garchomp was banned because of Sand Veil on SubSD. With SubSD essentially out of the mix, Garchomp is a lot less brutal and there really is no way to tell if Sand Veil is broken atm.

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

I agree with Ulti on this one: Garchomp was banned because of Sand Veil on SubSD. With SubSD essentially out of the mix, Garchomp is a lot less brutal and there really is no way to tell if Sand Veil is broken atm.

For all we know they plan to run a similar test the following weekend and allow Sand Veil then compare both weekends test results. It would seem like a natural solution but unless they tell us what they'll be looking for and discussing we may as well just play along and give them enough data to work with.

[LucaroarkZ]

I definitely like this idea. I believe Garchomp was only really banned because of the fact that it was the most prominent user of Sand Veil, while without Sand Veil, Garchomp isn't really broken at all. Glad to see the council testing bans on BS stuff like Sand Veil.

YacheChomp gogogogogo

[papai noel]

Wouldn't be viable banning Sand Stream + Sand Veil on the same team just like Drizzle + Swift Swim?

[GatoDelFuego]

As much as garchomp is less of a threat now without sand veil, I still don't see this having a happy ending. I never enjoyed facing garchomp, and certainly won't enjoy it if it gets back. It still can 2HKO pretty much everything, you know. Oh well. I'll just have to roll with it.

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat papai noel

Wouldn't be viable banning Sand Stream + Sand Veil on the same team just like Drizzle + Swift Swim?

I understand what you're getting at, but iirc all Pokemon who have Sand Veil as their only non-DW ability have their DW abilities released, so it's probably not necessary to implement a complex ban in this case.

[Electrolyte]

finally, I get to test out Chompy

I'm a bit confused though, are the people in the Tour the only ones allowed to use Garchomp again? Or is it being tested by everyone?

Anyway, the welcoming Garchomp will be a hard thing to do. So many pokemon will decrease in usage, mainly Steel types. Oh, you thought you could wall every dragon type out there? Heck no. Skarmory will definitely see a rise in usage as one of the few pokemon that resist Garchomp's STABs. Priority will definitely get more popular, especially Ice Shard, for it's ability to check yet another x4 weak pokemon.

Really can't wait to try it out, hopefully someone will find a nice offensive core.

[Nachos]

As far as I'm concerned, there are absolutely no negatives to removing an ability that only brings luck and frustration into the game, especially when you pair it on good Pokemon already like Gliscor and Garchomp. I can't see Garchomp being anywhere near as good as it was previously, due to Keldeo, Terrakion, Genesect, both Latis and Tornadus-T all becoming very popular, as well as usual Ferrothorn and Scizor. Considering most people are going to be hitting this thing with special moves too, Rough Skin won't be too much of a problem. I'm also glad to see we're moving somewhere, as I was starting to think nothing was happening.

Sets I'm looking forward to are probably the CB set which I suppose is like Dragonite but faster, has no Extremespeed and no Multiscale. That 102 speed is really nice for beating Landorus and Thund-T though. Unlike DP where there wasn't much above 102 speed, we have all the stuff mentioned above, and possibly more if Thundurus, Deoxys-S and Excadrill are unbanned, so I can't see SD+3 Attacks being as dominating, although Garchomp will always be a top tier pokemon regardless of all of that. I don't really like ScarfChomp as it always seems to be set up on by everything, with Ferrothorn being the worst culprit.

tl;dr this is a free garchomp lobby post.

Putting an end to that dumb SubAcro Gliscor set is also a huge plus.

[HoiPolloi]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

finally, I get to test out Chompy

I'm a bit confused though, are the people in the Tour the only ones allowed to use Garchomp again? Or is it being tested by everyone?

Anyway, the welcoming Garchomp will be a hard thing to do. So many pokemon will decrease in usage, mainly Steel types. Oh, you thought you could wall every dragon type out there? Heck no. Skarmory will definitely see a rise in usage as one of the few pokemon that resist Garchomp's STABs. Priority will definitely get more popular, especially Ice Shard, for it's ability to check yet another x4 weak pokemon.

Really can't wait to try it out, hopefully someone will find a nice offensive core.

As said in the OP, there will be a suspect ladder PS!, so you can test it outside of the two tournaments.
Also I think you are overestimateing Garchomp. It is a very good Pokemon no doubt, bit it won't have that much of an impact as you are thinking. It will be a good choice user, but as a set up sweeper it is inferior to Dragonite or Salamence as it lacks Dragon Dance and it therefor prone to revenge killing.

[Jumpman16**]

youre welcome smogon (reclines happily in his in his armchair as the ultimate monday morning quarterback)

[emirinho]

I totally agree that Garchomp is Overestimated. However, one shouldnt be completely relaxed. Because if you let Garchomp set a free sub and then SD you are screwed unless you have Skarmory or balloon Heatran with roar. So one should always be careful when facing a Garchomp.

[Trinitrotoluene]

This definitely looks to be an interesting run. It would be interesting to see how Chompy fares in a metagame filled with threats faster than it. I have a feeling that we'll be seeing plenty of teams with either Terrakion or Landorus paired with Garchomp to abuse the one-two punch strategy seen often in heavy offense teams. Of course, Garchomp itself will make plenty of difference in OU, since it can run many sets rather effectively. I've a feeling that the Scarf set will be the set used by most Garchomp.reserving the Garchomp analysis if we let it back into OU

[PK Gaming]

It begins ♪

If this works out correctly, we could get Garchomp back & remove sand veil period (curse you acrobatics Gliscor!!!).

Talk about a win / win!

[Colonel M]

Needs more unbanning of Speed Boost Blaziken.

But we'll see how this goes.

[NatGeo]

i might play singles again if this really is a thing

!

[PK Gaming]

It irks me.
...

It's irksome.

PS: Garchomp without sand veil isn't broken. I'm 99% sure on that!!

[joshe]

thank you everyone who fought to make this possible; we are in your debt. Garchomp will (hopefully) be a welcome sight in OU to come even if you have to take out luck inducing abilities which doesn't affect many pokemon that much (screw you subacro gliscor). Garchomp gained quite a few new checks this metagame as well so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing this one pan out :)

FREE GARCHOMP!

[PenguinX]

This is a big step forward.

Yeah sand veil is gay as hell. When I use Surf over Hydro Pump on Starmie for the 100% accuracy, I expect it to hit. Punishing someone for using a lower accuracy move over a more accurate option is fair enough, but losing a game because a move that should hit every time misses vs Gliscor is dumb. As Nachos said, I don't see any downsides to this and I personally don't see how anyone could disagree with this.

Also, iirc every Sand Veil Pokemon now has an available (and in most cases, arguably superior) ability over Sand Veil. Gliscor has Poison Heal, Sandslash has Sand Rush, Cacturne has Water Absorb or something.

Also Garchomp is cool. I liked Haban SD back in Stage 3.2 suspect and with Latias etc being pretty popular, I'll probably give it another go. It wasn't great in early BW but its worth a test at least. Choiced sets are always a good choice too.

In short, FREE GARCHOMP