Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

[Danger Mouse]

Hmm, maybe i should replace mence on my team with chomp? Might be fun to give it a shot! :)

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

youre welcome smogon (reclines happily in his in his armchair as the ultimate monday morning quarterback)

thank you based god, always.

i've been waiting for this for a long time, so ill try to contribute as much as i can

[Smaug 2]

I've been using ScarfChomp on my Sun team as a revenge killer (Outrage/EQ/SE/Fire Fang). It's pretty good, but not noticably better than the ScarfDorus it replaced. In all of the battles I've played so far on the suspect ladder, Garchomp (whether mine or the opponent's) was not a major factor in deciding the victory. That's not to say I've been playing a lot; I've played less than 10 Garchomp battles thus far, and I've only used one Garchomp set. Based on this and my knowledge of the current metagame, I can say with certainty that ScarfChomp is not broken. Now to try some of those other sets...

[mailanbr]

Originally Posted by Fat Colonel M

Needs more unbanning of Speed Boost Blaziken.

But we'll see how this goes.

I really hope that this doesn't happen. Sand Veil as a whole is being banned due to Garchomp coming down, and I really hope that Speed Boost as a whole won't be banned, because Yanmega and Sharpedo are perfectly fine with it (although TintedLens+Specs Yanmega is pretty sweet too). And even though Ninjask isn't used as often, it's always great to Baton Pass Speed Boost's to other Pokes, and without it, it would become completely useless.

[UltiMario]

Been fighting for #1 on the ladder (currently am, but that never lasts long lol). Chomp has been giving me few issues, I haven't even been using Chomp myself on the ladder because I prefer Mixmence for my team.

The set that has given me the most issues have been like Sub+3 Attacks, but I feel like I've only had issues with that because I never expected people to actually run Sub on Chomp without Sand Veil abuse. Now that I've played a bit more, like a quarter of chomps seem to use Sub ._.

Still going to be adamant about Chomp needing a Sand Veil test too. This Chomp is so far under OP that once the novelty of using Chomp wears off, I doubt he'll be top 10 on usage stats anymore (maybe only on something like a 1337 usage eqivalent though, I can imagine all the scrubs using Chomp to inflate normal OU stats).

[Dragonicwari]

@ ultiMatio; with the stabs that garchomp has, it only really needs one more attack. So substitute is completely viable as it eases prediction and prevents status (burns in particular). Though for someone who sits at #1, this should be incredibly obvious.

Does anyone else expect a rise in usage of faster Pokemon (latios, starmie, etc) using choice scarf just so they aren't threatened by scarf chomp? Even if it isn't scarfed and you aren't it will play mind games until you know

[Dark Fallen Angel]

What I say is that Garchomp is easier to fit on most teams than Dragonite and Salamence. It is resistant to Stealth Rock, tends to not compound common weakness on teams, and it's own weakness are easy to cover.

[Sewa]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

What I say is that Garchomp is easier to fit on most teams than Dragonite and Salamence. It is resistant to Stealth Rock, tends to not compound common weakness on teams, and it's own weakness are easy to cover.

Well, 4x Ice is a bad weakness to have nowadays: there's a reason why Mamoswine has increased its usage so much in last month.
Sand teams have Hippowdon, Landorus and Gliscor (maybe Sand Rush Sandlash?), Rain teams have Breloom and the Genies, Sun has its Clorophyll abusers and weatherless teams usually play with at least one dragon (and maybe Celebi). You'll quite always find another poke weak to ice in today meta.

Without its most infamous set (SubSalac needs Sand Veil) it is outclassed as a revenge killer by ScarfDorus-I, who has an immunity to come in, U-Turn and the possibility to go with HP Ice.

[indian]

I used scarf chomp on my sun team. And from my experience till now it is not broken. Mamoswine appered in more than 50% of teams and bronzong in over 25%. And many teams even did not had chomp.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Sewa

Well, 4x Ice is a bad weakness to have nowadays: there's a reason why Mamoswine has increased its usage so much in last month.
Sand teams have Hippowdon, Landorus and Gliscor (maybe Sand Rush Sandlash?), Rain teams have Breloom and the Genies, Sun has its Clorophyll abusers and weatherless teams usually play with at least one dragon (and maybe Celebi). You'll quite always find another poke weak to ice in today meta.

Without its most infamous set (SubSalac needs Sand Veil) it is outclassed as a revenge killer by ScarfDorus-I, who has an immunity to come in, U-Turn and the possibility to go with HP Ice.

But it's weakness to Ice can be covered by pratically any Steel, such as Bronzong and Skarmory. Speaking of Bronzong, it covers perfectly all Garchomp's weakness and can destroy Mamoswine wich Gyro Ball. In return, Garchomp covers Bronzong's only weakness to Fire, and can destroy it's main checks, Heatran and Magnezone.

I'm not saying that it's weakness are not common, only that they are easy to cover. There is a difference, like Ground, a common type that is easy to cover, and in it's case, with any pokémon that is immune to Ground and doesn't share weakness with the pokémon that is weak.

Garchomp may be outclassed as a revenge killer in sand teams, but it has other sets. Wallbreaker with Choice Band or Swords Dance, maybe.

The fact is that Garchomp is still easy to fit if you haven't it's weakness compounded on a team. Not all rain teams use breloom and/or the genies at same time, non-defensive sand teams rarely use Hippowdon, and Gliscor is uncommon in teams with Landorus (as they share the same tipying). In sun teams, Ice attacks are covered by the Fire-type pokémons. As for weatherless teams, this depends on the rest of pokés that you are using.

[UltiMario]

I've seen like one team with Bronzong, and even then it wasn't doing much without Chomp to ruin.

Mamo, as expected, is somewhat common though. I feel like I see them more in normal OU than Suspect, which is surprising. I have, however, seen several Weaviles. They CAN Revenge every set as long as a Sub isn't up. I guess that's why.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Still I must admit that thanks to Garchomp, Mamoswine's usage will increase much more (and maybe Weavile). I am still thinking of how I can fit Garchomp on my team and wich partners could be good to him, to take care of his checks and cover it's weakness. I thougth of Bronzong, and while it's true that it can check Mamoswine rather well, it is setup fodder for so many pokémon, that I think that it's better to use another partner. Do you have any idea?

I am thinking of Heatran. Heatran 4x resists Ice and 2x resists Dragon. It perfectly covers Garchomp's 4x weakness to Ice and 2x to Dragon. Heatran can take care of Steel-types that are immune or neutral to Earthquake, such as Bronzong and Skarmory. However, Garchomp doesn't cover any weakness that Heatran has, and doesn't do much things in return to Heatran, outside of destroying the pink blobs. Also, it still doesn't solve Garchomp's problem with Mamoswine, and only compound this problem, as Mamoswine can destroy Heatran with Earthquake, or in case of Air Baloon variants, Superpower.

Another partner that I thought is Magnezone. It can do all that Heatran can do, but it suffers from the same problems as Heatran, with difference being the fact that Garchomp cover Magnezone's weakness to Fire.

[emirinho]

Garchomp and Skarmory are also a good core. They cover each other's wekanesses. Also, Skarmory has Whirlwind so it wont be set up fodder like Bronzong.

I think that the SubSD Yache berry and the Choice Scarf set are the best sets one can use in todays metagame. SubSD Yache berry is excellent when facing Mamoswines and Weaviles. Garchomp is an excellent Revnge killer. A jolly scarfed Garchomp is faster than scarf Salamence and all the other Revenge killers that have base speed less that 102. Also, Garchomp can be used as a sweep stopper for Volcarona Dragonite or Salamence.
I played a couple of times on the test ladder and Garchomp is not even near broken it is easily taken care of by mamoswine and usually a scarfer, so i expect it in OU in the near future.

[UltiMario]

I've actually found that Yache is now very mediocre on Chomp.

After SR/Spikes/Sub/Any sort of damage, Ice moves just tear Chomp in half anyways, Yache or not. Mamo and Genesect tear through Chomp especially with Ice Shard and Download Boosted Ice Beam. Yache was always for shit like Ice Beam Starmie, which doesn't hit nearly as hard.

If you want to run SubSD (which really was only ever good in the first place because of Sand Veil), run Salac Berry or Life Orb. Get some speed or power, not insurance for something that'll kill you through Yache anyways.

[superbadd]

I figured due to thunderus-t having subpar speed that the same would hold true to garchomp. They're both very similar in that, it's very difficult to set up and they have to run scarf to be effective. I do like a LO set in the sun though. Dragon claw/EQ/Outrage/Fire blast with a naive nature is excellent. Sun is getting more and more weapons that were originally belonging to sand. Garchomp helps sun teams defeat sand teams and it may have a niche for that. Rough skin is surprisingly fun and useful it can help take out a sweeper that's low on health and really turn the tide of the match. Overall, it seems pretty normal, It doesn't stand out and is surprisingly weak in most situations.

[papita]

Yeah garchomp is much more manageable now but i don´t think it´s got something to do with the sand veil ban but with the fact there are tons of things that can revenge kill it. Keldeo,Terrakion, Tornadus and thundurus T and there are a lot of things that can wall it as well. Base 102 speed isn´t what it used to be and Garchomp is farf from broken in this meta

[Jukain]

I'm not actually using Garchomp, so I just wanted to say something I'm finding is doing well against it.

Landorus-T: I've been finding that time and time again when I'm on the verge of being finished off by SD Chomp that it is just a great check. Earthquake does solid damage, and after Intimidate it is fit to take even an Outrage. ScarfChomp it just completely destroys, taking little from all of its attacks and hitting back hard with Earthquake. It is immune to Garchomp's own Earthquake, which is very useful. When you look at solid calcs:

252 Atk Garchomp vs. 252/196 Landorus-T (assuming Intimidate, Leftovers, and Stealth Rock)

• -1 Outrage: 117-138 (30.62 - 36.12%) -- 75.15% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• -1 Dragon Claw: 78-93 (20.41 - 24.34%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
• +1 Outrage: 262-309 (68.58 - 80.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +1 Dragon Claw: 175-207 (45.81 - 54.18%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• neutral (CB) Outrage: 175-207 (45.81 - 54.18%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• neutral (CB) Dragon Claw: 118-139 (30.89 - 36.38%) -- 83.76% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

96 Atk Landorus-T against 4/0 Garchomp (no Stealth Rock: Earthquake: 184-217 (51.39 - 60.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

against Scarf: It can switch into any hit, not even being always 3HKOed by Outrage. Earthquake always 2HKOes, so Landorus-T can easily switch-in, and if gets hit by Outrage, you can even switch to a Steel-type if you want to to more comfortably handle Outrage.

against Band: If it needs to, it can come in after something has died and take an Outrage. You can also have something bait Earthquake and get in Landorus-T for free.

against Swords Dance: It can't come in after +2, but before it, it can switch in, get Garchomp at -1/+1 if it Swords Dances that turn. It can get off a solid chunk of damage with Earthquake while surviving an Outrage after Stealth Rock damage. Earthquake is a solid 2HKO on non-SubSD, and it has a 91.8% chance of 2HKOing SubSD, which is much weaker.

While it may not be a counter, Landorus-T is a solid check to Garchomp and should be considered if your team has trouble against Garchomp and other physical attackers that don't get a super effective hit on it.

Some observations on the Suspect meta as a whole:

• I'm seeing Hippowdon all over the place. I imagine it's great to check Garchomp, and its high physical bulk seems greatly needed atm.
• Sand is totally dominant. Perhaps the main reason for this is that Garchomp doesn't like weather-boosted attacks? I don't completely understand why sand is so common, but that might be a contributing factor. Or maybe people just have the mentality that Garchomp is always best in sand from back when it was legal in BW1?

And one more thing: Amoonguss with Def investment (I was running like 252/228+ or something, with 28 SpA EVs for Keldeo's Substitutes or whatever) can be a last-ditch check if in top shape, barely surviving a +2 Outrage and being able to Spore or KO it if it's weakened with HP Ice.

EDIT: also imho Garchomp is not broken or even close to being

[AllNet]

Garchomp is a beast. It has 2 powerful stab moves to that provide nearly perfect coverage coming off a base 130 attack, ensuring that it will hit all his counters hard, Skarmory and Bronzong are probably the only hard "counters"but then again they can't do much back to it. Well Skarm can phaze it. 108/95/85 defenses give it fantastic natural bulk. Pretty much Weavile or Mamoswine is a must to OHKO that thing. In fact, Garchomp actually survives an UnStabbed Ice beam from uninvested Bulky Waters. Suicune and Milotic for example, can't even OHKO it.

Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados are all weak to Stealth Rock, which gives teams a reliable way to wear it down slowly. Garchomp resists Stealth Rock, which just makes it harder to keep it in check?
How often do you see something that hits as hard as that thing, while sporting a troll 102 base speed and also being bulky as hell? Add to the top of that, thanks to Sand Veil, one can not even reliably hit Garchomp. Better hope he's not abusing Subs/Sandstorm.

I think Garchomp is pretty damn good, but Sand Veil is the ultimate reason why it's uber. Chomp could easily hax the shit outta the opposition. I think it's worth a shot. Chances are, he probably won't be uber without Sand Veil. One could argue that MultiScale Dragonite is broken, but no, because we have Stealth Rocks to keep it in check.

[jg1198]

auuuuugh. that big long post. deleted. well whatever. This test ladder is so set up against garchomp with a lot of people packing several counters to garchomp. I've actually seen a team of slowbro, skarmory, politoed, starmie, weavile, and mamoswine. For this reason, infernape and mienshao are thriving, with u-turn and strong fighting stabs, and in infernape's case, strong fire moves and access to thunderpunch. also props to Kd24 and Detroitlolcat for their posts.

[Joeyboy]

Originally Posted by Fat Sewa

Without its most infamous set (SubSalac needs Sand Veil) it is outclassed as a revenge killer by ScarfDorus-I, who has an immunity to come in, U-Turn and the possibility to go with HP Ice.

Garchomp also has an immunity remember.

Anyway I'm really glad is has happened and after spending some time on the Suspect ladder I've found Garchomp to be OU material through and through. I've used it on a Rain team and also a Dragspam team and in neither case did I feel like Garchomp "owned" any opposing teams.

Also I think people are using Sand a lot(based on what others are saying, I didn't necessarily see a lot of it, more sun) because it tends to carry chomp checks and people are used to running Garchomp with sand. It doesn't really gain any benefits from it anymore(no passive damage I suppose) but people remember it did well in Sand so they are reverting back.

[EonX-]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

Landorus-T vs. Garchomp stuff

Didn't want a huge wall of text, but anyway. I've always found Landorus-T to be a great check to physical Dragons, and it definitely keeps Garchomp in check. Instead of +2 boosted hits, you only have to handle +1 boosted attacks. If it's Banded, you're just dealing with non-LO Garchomp without a Scarf. If it's Scarfed, well, lol. Idgaf about 130 Attack. -1 Attack is -1 Attack. Seriously, Lando-T is amazing and Garchomp being around just adds to the list of physical attackers it can hold in check.

I've found that Sun teams are generally benefiting most from Garchomp atm. It gives them a strong physical Dragon that isn't weak to SR and can still utilize Fire moves (Fire Fang and Fire Blast) Dragon+Ground is an amazing STAB combination and if you add a pseudo-STAB Fire move to it, very few things can hope to safely switch-in. Still, 102 Speed isn't what it was last Gen. Sure, you still get in front of Salamence, Volcarona, and friends, but you still fall short of Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, and the rarer Infernape. Garchomp is great, but there are plenty of things to keep it in check now. And now, you don't have to worry about randomly missing with a move that's supposed to have 100% accuracy.

[Itchni]

What most people don't realize is that garchomp was not banned because of its ability but for the complete metagame dominance it had. I remember a time during early DP that an OU RMT would be criticized for not using garchomp.

Garchomp has great defenses amazing offense a trollish speed of 102 and great stabs. with a yache berry the swords dance set was nigh uncounterable. His ability was just the icing on the cake. Suggesting a ban on sand veil garchomp won't do any good because it was not the reason for his ban.

[X5Dragon]

I remember a time during early DP

Timing is key, this is BW2 where most scarfers are packing HP ice and lots of base 105s+ running around loose.

[False Sense]

Wow, Garchomp possibly in OU again? This is certainly going to be interesting.

I'd like to see just what kind of an impact Sand Veil (or more specifically, Sand Veil on a monster like Garchomp) will have on the current metagame. It may or may not be the same force it once was. If it is as difficult to fight as before, than I can see Rough Skin Garchomp being OU at least.

[superbadd]

@Itchni TBH, I completely disagree. Everyone says garchomp was banned b/c of it's power instead of its ability, neither are true. It was banned b/c of the combination of it's ability and power. Now that sand veil no longer exists, garchomp's effectiveness was cut in half; garchomp is mediocre imo. It's ou no doubt, but due to the fact practically everything can 2HKO and how fast and strong ou is right now, it has a difficult time competing. Garchomp is so far from "uncounterable", it's laughable to even consider. The only thing I'm wondering is why are so many losers running sand teams with garchomp? It doesn't benefit from sand at all. It benefits way more from sun.