Ok, specs Gothitelle is broken IMO. It allows you a foolproof way to break through an offensive pokemon's select counters. Without their Hitmontop or Gligar, many teams struggle against Hera. Without Suicune, Milotic, or Slowbro, what can switch into CB Darmanitan? You have an almost risk-free way to secure a kill on a group of walls (or simply threaten it to scare them out of going into their walls. Under the support clause, this thing is easily broken. Moreso it makes stall and semi stall essentially unplayable because defensive cores can be broken down incredibly easily, which drives the metagame to highly offensive play and limits the diversity in Pokemon and play style that makes the UU tier what it is.
Your opinion doesn't exactly render a Pokemon broken [someone correct me if I'm wrong about that]. What makes a Pokemon broken is its negative effect on the metagame. Gothitelle, especially Choice Specs sets, is anything but broken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Zarco
It allows you a foolproof way to break through an offensive pokemon's select counters. Without their Hitmontop or Gligar, many teams struggle against Hera. Without Suicune, Milotic, or Slowbro, what can switch into CB Darmanitan?
Most teams that struggle with Heracross are typically terrible teams. Think about it, its the new big threat in the tier. Every team should be capable of containing it, and should have a "plan b" in case their typical counter goes down. A lot of other scarfers outspeed and beat Heracross, and other Pokemon can tackle Heracross. Suicune and Milotic are both capable of phazing Gothitelle, as it cannot OHKO either of them with Thunderbolt [trust me, I've tried, and it doesn't work]. Both Suicune and Milotic also tend to carry a recovery move, which keeps the two healthy once Gothitelle is forced out. You act that if you face Gothitelle that you're not allowed to predict a switch to the trapper, which is far from the case. If you know it's coming and you do nothing about it, that's your fault. Phaze it on the switch or double switch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Zarco
You have an almost risk-free way to secure a kill on a group of walls (or simply threaten it to scare them out of going into their walls.
And that's Gothitelle's niche. And its anything but risk-free. Anybody can U-Turn with their Gligar while anticipating a Gothitelle switch-in, do about 30% damage, and bring out a Pursuit user or their Gothitelle check. Sleep Powder Roserade outspeed non-scarfed Gothitelle, neuter it, and beat it. Snorlax can beat it in most cases, as Psyshock isn't a guaranteed 2HKO [3HKO on Scarf sets]. Your statement leads me to believe that you'd you'd agree that Dugtrio is broken in OU because it can KO both Tyranitar and Ninetales, allowing you to win a weather war. Trappers are a component of the metagame, and you can't debunk a Pokemon because it can do its job. Looking at this from an earlier point in the UU tier, removing the opposing team's spinner and getting full hazards up on them had a very similar effect on the tier that Gothitelle did, except it took more than a couple of turns. The hazards hurt, crippled, and led to the elimination of walls that stopped sweepers such as Raikou, Kingdra, Heracross, or Dramanitan. Gothitelle is here to break walls and give those mentioned sweepers room to clean out the remainder of a team. I see no difference in the way the two work, except you save yourself a few turns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Zarco
Under the support clause, this thing is easily broken.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the support clause hasn't been used since DPP when Latios and Salamence got banned or during BW's earlier days. If that's the case, then I'm assuming that its safe to say that there's a reason it isn't used. It's not effective in the modern metagame. It basically states that team support is bad and that it leaves too much room for sweepers to demolish stuff. Gothitelle is not affected by the support clause either, because it's not a sweeper and isn't the Pokemon winning the match, just opening holes for other members of the team to take advantage of [Again, correct me if I'm wrong]. In fact, the support clause isn't even mentioned on the Clauses and Banlists page on the site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Zarco
Moreso it makes stall and semi stall essentially unplayable because defensive cores can be broken down incredibly easily, which drives the metagame to highly offensive play and limits the diversity in Pokemon and play style that makes the UU tier what it is.
That isn't entirely true. Gothitelle actually struggles to beat most defensive cores on Stall teams simply because it cannot heal itself. Because any decent Gothitelle is going to be choiced, it tends to be forced out because it needs to be using a different move to overcome its new opponent. This leaves room for hazards damage to take their toll. Toxic Spikes really hurt Gothitelle's ability to trap and beat defensive Pokemon in the game. Once a few layers of hazards are up, and the opponent cannot spin due to your spinblocker or lack of a spinner, then you've basically got Gothitelle beat. There's still a wide amount of defensive Pokemon that Gothitelle fails to beat too. Bronzong and Cofagrigus are good mentions because they work really well on a Stall team, and can beat Gothitelle [unless it runs HP Fire for Bronzong, which is dumb, and Shadow Ball for Cofagrigus, which isn't typically out of the ordinary]. Gothitelle does yes, make Semi-Stall virtually impossible to play, because it can remove or heavily damage two or three key members, leaving room for sweepers to prey on weakened walls. But hell, Semi-Stall isn't exactly the best playstyle as it is. Losing that doesn't exactly bother me, and it probably doesn't bother most other people who play Underused.
I'm still yet to see something that really proclaims Gothitelle as broken. It doesn't beat teams on its own, and drops the need for entry hazards on offensively-based teams. There's a wide variety of Pursuit users in the tier, and dealing with Gothitelle shouldn't be as over-hyped as many people are making it. It's a wallbreaker that just happens to excel in this tier, not a sweeper that guarantees a win/loss if you use it/face it.
That isn't entirely true. Gothitelle actually struggles to beat most defensive cores on Stall teams simply because it cannot heal itself. Because any decent Gothitelle is going to be choiced, it tends to be forced out because it needs to be using a different move to overcome its new opponent. This leaves room for hazards damage to take their toll. Toxic Spikes really hurt Gothitelle's ability to trap and beat defensive Pokemon in the game. Once a few layers of hazards are up, and the opponent cannot spin due to your spinblocker or lack of a spinner, then you've basically got Gothitelle beat. There's still a wide amount of defensive Pokemon that Gothitelle fails to beat too. Bronzong and Cofagrigus are good mentions because they work really well on a Stall team, and can beat Gothitelle [unless it runs HP Fire for Bronzong, which is dumb, and Shadow Ball for Cofagrigus, which isn't typically out of the ordinary]. Gothitelle does yes, make Semi-Stall virtually impossible to play, because it can remove or heavily damage two or three key members, leaving room for sweepers to prey on weakened walls. But hell, Semi-Stall isn't exactly the best playstyle as it is. Losing that doesn't exactly bother me, and it probably doesn't bother most other people who play Underused.
I'm still yet to see something that really proclaims Gothitelle as broken. It doesn't beat teams on its own, and drops the need for entry hazards on offensively-based teams. There's a wide variety of Pursuit users in the tier, and dealing with Gothitelle shouldn't be as over-hyped as many people are making it. It's a wallbreaker that just happens to excel in this tier, not a sweeper that guarantees a win/loss if you use it/face it.
I'm only going to respond to this part of your response right now Pokemazter because it seems so glaringly mistaken to me...
First of all Gothitelle does not have to beat an entire defensive core it can simply take out a single sturdy wall that is used to counter something - taking out Gligar has been heavily cited as a good example. Clearly there are other things that can beat Gligar 100% of the time so the fact that Gothitelle beats Gligar isn't what makes it broken, its the fact that the Gligar user has about (and this is an estimate people but understand I have played literally hundreds of UU battles in the past two weeks because I a) no life and b) its fun) a 10-15% chance of holding Gligar. People argue and say "if you think you are going to get trapped, then just switch back out". This is putting a hugely unfair burden on the defensive player, consider for instance that Heracross was on the field right now. In order to not get Moxie crushed the defensive player must send out Gligar but the Heracross player can simply pivot to Gothitelle and bam, its practically gg. The defensive player has to guess if this is going to happen or not, if he is mistaken he loses the game if he is correct he has to guess again the next turn and in every other instance where Heracross comes in. On the other hand if the Gothitelle+Heracross user guesses incorrectly all that happens is he loses a turn, he has a very good chance of maintaining momentum and since Gothitelle can still be put in play he can still apply immense pressure to his opponent to bring out Gligar later and then trap it. This is why I estimate Gothitelle users can get rid of Gligar just about 90% of the time.
No not any decent Gothitelle is going to be choiced, most will be but Sub CM has the luxury of setting up on many weak or resisted moves, especially on the special side and then guaranteeing almost for sure 2-3 kills if it can set up fully.
People rarely use Toxic Spikes in any case and they are not such a powerful move with Roserade and Nidoking. However lets look at the users, they are not suprisingly Poison type and pure Gothitelle bait, if your opponent is setting up Toxic Spikes because they think they have a "free turn" you can go to Gothitelle and punish them.
I wonder if you either use stall or Gothitelle because I am very familiar with both in the current game and I assure you setting up hazards is not going to stop Gothitelle from trapping and killing select Pokemon on your defensive team. Lets be generous and say you have managed to set up SR and a couple layers of Spikes with Toxic Spikes. Lets be even more generous and say you got to keep all your hazard setters somehow even though Claydol, Kabutops, Qwilfish, Roserade, Rhyperior, Gligar and Registeel can all be trapped and KO'd (crippled for Registeel) by Gothitelle. How have your hazards stopped Gothitelle? It will still happily GK Swampert and maul Snorlax and cripple Umbreon to pave the path onward for Raikou. It can still trap and kill practically all of the tanks it could before with simply Trick/Tbolt/Psyshock/GK. It can cripple Bronzong by the way and badly injure Cofagrigus.
This is though beyond my point I want to make. If you don't think Gothitelle is broken because its too weak or too slow, that is fine by me because that is not wrong at all - by UU standards Gothitelle is really quite weak and slow (although bulky). It does however have such a powerful ability and a wide enough movepool that it can murder chunks of defensive cores and cause stall to meltdown.
When UU banned sand just a month or two ago your main reasoning was not that sand is too powerful but sand limits diversity. I do think that Gothitelle is indeed too powerful anyways for reasons I have already listed but another reason to ban it is because it heavily limits diversity not in the case of forcing you to run Rhyperior/Bronzong/Stoutland counter or messing up all LO users like Sand did, but it makes stall crappy. Very crappy. Defensive teams rely on walls to counter threats and if you take away just one of those walls, it simply will not work. If you were actually serious when you all thought the single reason of "limiting diversity" was enough to ban something then you must recognize it here too. I truly cannot see any counter arguments to this except that "LOL STALL IS GHEY NOOB" which is not legitimate, I think. If you thought sand should have been banned because you really wanted to use that Life Orb Azelf but couldn't you now have an entire play style made extraordinarily less useful as opposed to an item slot.
Flareblitz said Togekiss has been mauling stalling for the past forever but there is a difference, you can still use niche counters to Togekiss to make sure it won't beat your stall team such as Kabutops or Cryogonal. You do not have this luxury against Gothitelle which will almost definitely take down part of your core unless you have psychic prediction.
Which brings me to another point on this topic, defensive teams are very passive which allows for Gothitelle to come in plenty and they have to set up passive damage to have a good chance of sucess. Gothitelle puts an unfair burden on passive players, you literally have no chance to set up hazards with your defenders if your opponent has Gothitelle in their wings because if they stay in you may get trapped and killed. The defensive player never had a chance after team preview. Any team that relies on passive Pokemon simply cannot rely on them.
In essence Gothitelle's ability allows it to select most any wall to cripple or kill which is too powerful and it puts unfair pressure against defensive teams.
__________________
find me at chess.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! username= dA_pIFSTER
Gothitelle has been banned. I'm not in the best place to publicize paragraphs so me or koko will do that as soon as possible but it's important to release the decision because of the implications for grand slam.
Gothitelle is slow and relatively frail (for a bulky attacker - compare to something like CB Swampert) if running a Choice Specs set, and weak, frail, and not even particularly fast if running a Scarf set (can't revenge Crobat, Weavile, or pretty much any other scarfer). Gothitelle's Psychic typing leaves it with a mediocre offensive STAB and a terrible defensive typing. But of course, you guys know all of this, and I can hear the counter-argument "Gothitelle was in deep NU until it received Shadow Tag, so Shadow Tag is the point of contention; its statistical inferiority doesn't matter." And to that I say it absolutely does. I plan on making my case for Gothitelle around the fact that, despite Shadow Tag, it is not powerful enough as an offensive presence to warrant a ban in a metagame with threats like Darmantian, Chandelure, Togekiss, Raikou, Kingdra, and Flygon.
The nature of Shadow Tag makes comparing Gothitelle to other threats difficult, because it's singularly frustrating to have an important Pokemon trapped and KO'd, and it's almost equally as satisfying to trap and remove an important Pokemon to allow your sweeper free reign. That's understandable, but at the same time, we need to realize that there are Pokemon who are more threatening to an opposing team's defense / synergy even without the ability to trap. Think about it in the context of chess - when you check an opposing king, the king is forced to move. But "forced moves" don't just encompass moves that legally require the opponent to move - they also encompass unfavorable moves that the opponent has to make (lest he lose immediately). A good offensive team forces the opposing team make plenty of these moves throughout the course of a match (known as "offensive pressure"). Since I build good offensive teams, I found gothitelle's ability to trap and remove threats almost redundant. You say Gothitelle makes it easy to remove bulky waters, and I say that running a lure or a powerful physical attacker makes it just as easy. You say Gothitelle destroys stall, I say that I've been destroying stall much more easily for 4 rounds with Togekiss.
I realize that trapping abilities are powerful; Arena Trap caused a Pokemon like Dugtrio to be 3 tiers higher than it would otherwise be. But in my opinion, Gothitelle is too statistically inferior and possessed of typing that is too synergestically mediocre in this metagame to contribute more to one of my teams than another Pokemon that is more specific to that team's needs would. For example, if I were building a team around weakening and disrupting a physically-defensive core so that Heracross or Darmantian could sweep, I would be much better served with a pokemon like Weavile or Honchkrow. Not only could they facilitate the team's goal just as well, they also have the potential to benefit from Heracross or Darmantian weakening the opponent and secure a sweep themselves. Gothitelle will never sweep a well-built team. Its sole purpose is to remove important Pokemon, and I don't think it's good enough outside that role to justify using it over other specific offensive Pokemon that can remove important Pokemon in a more subtle fashion while also contributing a threatening presence outside that context.
Yes, Shadow Tag makes Gothitelle a very unique threat...but that's exactly why it is worth preserving in this metagame. As can be ascertained from usage stats and general ladder experience, Gothitelle is not centralizing in any way. All the teams that were hyped around its trapping capabilities still lost consistently to well-built bulky offense, hyper offense, and balance, and any player that found significant success with it on the ladder could have probably had similar success using a team without Gothitelle (and I say this from personal experience). It does not make any playstyle significantly more unviable than it already is (if you're planning on running stall, you should be much more worried about the monsters that are Togekiss or SD Heracross than Gothitelle). But ultimately, the best measure of whether a threat is broken or not is how you feel when you see it on your opponent's team. Think back and imagine how you felt when you saw Staraptor in team preview, or when you saw that your offensive team was up against a sand team, or when you realized that Froslass had gotten in and set up a sub and was now going to bullshit you out of an easy win. Personally, Gothitelle has not caused me nearly as much anxiety as any of the threats we've banned so far, and it doesn't even cause me as much anxiety as threats generally considered to be acceptable in the metagame (like Flygon or Kingdra).
Ginku; no ban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Ginku
This was far from an easy decision, but I'll vote in goth's favor and go with not banning it here. This may be rather controversial, but in the end I think Gothitelle just barely misses the mark of being "broken" for a number of reasons.
Everyone should know what Gothitelle does and why it's so dangerous, so I'll get straight to the point. First off and probably most important is that while Shadow Tag does indeed technically give it the ability to trap everything, in practice Gothitelle is limited by its stats and typing to an extent that it will simply lose to a lot of mons regardless of whether they can switch or not, so it's really not all that different from other trapping abilities; it may be less specific, but in the end it's far from a way to kill whatever you want. Being able to trap non-flying steels and such is great, but only as long as you can actually beat them, which brings us to Gothitelle's next problem, its typing and stats, specifically speed. Trapping things is easer said than done when you're outsped by practically every offensive presence in the metagame, meaning defensive mons are generally the only things it will be trapping without giving up tons of power for a choice scarf. The main thing making Gothitelle as dangerous as it is is trick, letting it reliably cripple anything slower than it, which can be a huge factor in a battle, but tricking something will often mean losing the one on one fight, and having been tricked a choice item is far from being useless.
Another important factor is that while Gothitelle will be able to KO/cripple walls it switched into, this is easier said than done with most of them having a way to phaze it (Bulky waters who aren't slowbro, Rhyperior, rarely snorlax), U-turn out (Gligar and Xatu, both of which have the option of outspeeding goth, although this is probably a bad idea especially in Gligar's case), 2HKOing (Snorlax, some Roserade spreads) or just OHKOing it (Rhyperior) as well as just not caring all that much (Sableye, arguably Bronzong). Of course, some things will get left behind (Porygon2, Slowbro, Umbreon), but I believe that simply being able to reliably trap and cripple a few walls is not justification for a ban. There is also the possibility of Gothitelle itself being pursuit trapped after a double switch (or running shed shell), so it's not like you're completely hepless against it, although that is more of a side note as an argument.
So in the end, my point is that yes, Gothitelle can have a huge impact on games by trapping key pokemon, but it's not like this is a new concept, and it's simply not as easy as switching in and getting rid of the thing you targeted; you definitely will have to outplay your opponent to really benefit from it. This is of course not saying this was an easy decision to make, since Gothitelle is quite possibly the most (indirectly) threatening mon in the meta and I can definitely understand why one would want to ban it, but in the end I just don't think it's at the point where it's needed with almost everything having a way to cirumvent it.
tl;dr I hate myself for this but I'm voting no ban
kokoloko; ban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
This is probably the suspect vote I have stuggled with the most in my entire pokecareer; not because I'm unsure if its broken, but because I'm unsure how relevant that is...
On one hand, we have the fact that Shadow Tag is--undeniably--one of the best abilities in the game and if Gothitelle was even slightly stronger and/or faster, it would be stupendously broken. On the other, we have the fact that, well... it isn't. In theory, yes, it can trap and kill anything you can think of, but the fact is, in practice, when you're up against a good player, Gothitelle can often fail to perform to your expectations. It's not consistent, that's for sure, and in the past, not consistently broken equated to not broken.
Here's the thing, though, in my mind, it's not that simple. Many of you know that I'm a big advocate of creating the best metagame possible regardless of the means, and if there's one thing Gothitelle does well it is making a large number of Pokemon completely unviable. You can say "players need to adapt" all you want, but the reality is that the adaptations one needs to make to be able to consistently avoid getting destroyed by Gothitelle's teammates (notice it's not Gothitelle doing the destroying!) will lead to a less diverse--and therefore less healthy--metagame.
I'm sure we can all agree that diversity is important in a healthy metagame, and with Gothitelle around, Pokemon who would otherwise be perfectly suited metagame picks such as Rhyperior, Qwilfish, and even Roserade become liabilities. Assuming the Gothitelle user doesn't suck, it should be able to remove its teammate's check/counter leaving you completely helpless... unless you adapt. You could run Shed Shell on everything, but that's dumb. You could also run a team with no Pokemon that Gothitelle can actually kill in practice, but "lol good luck with that" and it also starts looking pretty stupid once you consider the long-term effects of everyone doing it (read: decreased metagame diversity).
What I'm trying to say here is that even though Gothitelle doesn't perform consistently, and therefore doesn't fit the traditional definition of "broken", it's my opinion that its presence in UU brings more harm than it does good. Because of this, my vote will be to ban Gothitelle.
PK Gaming; ban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming
Gothitelle is broken
Its ability to trap and kill several key defensive & offensive Pokemon alike is broken, and it easily does this at a consistent basis. You don't need to careful plan ahead with Gothitelle. Switch it after one of your Pokemon has died or switch in on a non-attacking and have it OHKO your defenseless target. Once your target of choice has died, Gothitelle's job is done; it doesn't need to KO anymore Pokemon or do anything else (though a well played Gothitelle should be able to at least kill Pokemon and severely hurt another.). Gothitelle isn't being used as a sweeper or an attacker. It's primary job is running around and trap killing Pokemon, so the argument that its "stats are exceedingly mediocre" doesn't hold much weight. For the most part it's suboptimal stats are completely irrelevant; as long as it can OHKO Pokemon like Gligar or Swampert, its done its job. After it's done its job, its teammates have no problem steamrolling you since your only form of defense is gone. UU is home to several Pokemon that are exceedingly difficult to counter, but just barely get a pass because they can be dealt with select Pokemon and smart playing. Gothitelle renders that null and void.
The set in question is the Choice Specs set:
Psyschock / Psychic | HP Ice | Grass Knot | Thunderbolt or the occasionally Trick
This set is capable of removing prominent Pokemon such as Gligar, Swampert, Rhyperior, and defensive Roserade with its wide array of coverage moves, and there is nothing you can do about it (short of running Shed Shell). It needs only to come into each of these threats safely (through u-turn / volt switch, double switch or revenge kill... switching in directly isn't usually ideal) to remove from them battle period. Gothitelle is also capable of using a Choice Scarf set, which is arguably just as effective as the Choice Specs on certain teams. It trades sheer strength for picking power, and it can revenge kill pretty any offensive Pokemon that is weak to its STAB (Fighting-types like Mienshao and non-scarf Heracross) or Pokemon that are frail enough to die to one of its coverage moves (non-scarf Flygon). It can still act as a trapper to the likes of Gligar, Swampert, Rhyperior and Roserade, but more discretion is needed (waiting until the aforementioned threats are in KO range).
The biggest Gothitelle abusers (ie broken with its help):
1. Heracross
Heracross is by far the most prominent Pokemon in UU. It's known for its ability to sweep at a moments notice because of moxie, and is unequivocally the best lategame sweeper in UU. It's stopped by a few Pokemon like Gligar, Qwilfish and the occasionally Hitmontop. Gothitelle is literally capable of OHKOing each and every one of these Pokemon, which allows Heracross to sweep through teams, unimpaired. Now i'll admit, Gothitelle does not like switching into Crobat due to its meager defense stat, but its easy to switch Gothitelle into Crobat by bluffing a switch with Heracross, since the mere threat of Heracross getting a kill terrifies most players. Once its counters are out of the way and once Heracross gets a single kill in, its going to wreck the opposing team.
2. Darmranitan
Darmanitan is arguably even more offensive than Heracross. It's ridiculously powerful but checked by a few Pokemon, specifically Rhyperior & Blastoise. Now don't get me wrong, Darmanitan is easily capable of bypassing these Pokemon by wearing them with predicted Superpowers... however there is a large difference between weakening your checks so that you can finish them off the next time they attempt to counter said Pokemon and flat out removing it from the field. Even more offensive is the fact Darmanitan has access to U-turn and can thus bring in Gothitelle for free and remove either of these checks. After Darmanitan's checks go down there's basically nothing that can stop it from obliterating everything with Flare Blitz. The same can be said about Victini to a certain extent (it even has U-turn)
I will primarily focused Darmanitan and Heracross primarily, but it should also be noted that its effect applies the likes of Raikou, Flygon, Victini, Cobalion and several other Pokemon as well.
I've seen people argue that careful can prevent your key Pokemon from being trapped by Gothitelle, but this not generally going to be the case against a competent player, since they can usually force your hand. Darmanitan itself has very few checks in UU due to his high power, but it can always U-turn into Gothitelle and trap these initially switches. Double switches, or Pokemon sacrifices are things that should be kept in mind as well. Gothitelle almost always unfairly skews the flow of the match in the favor of its user.
Gothitelle teams are effective against all team types, it doesn't discriminate. It's capable of dismantling stall teams by removing Pokemon that counters Gothitelle teammates (usually a glue) like Gligar. Its capable of beating balance teams by removing some of the more prominent checks to to heavy threats like Blastoise. Its not as effective against heavy offense teams, but it has utility against entry hazard users, and still sees use against them as a result. It is also capable of destroying most of the rapid spinners in the tier; it OHKOes standard Hitmontop and 2hkoes Blastoise with Thunderbolt, thus enabling spike stacking (a powerful strategy that is almost impossible to deal with as is).
No Pokemon should completely shut down defensive Pokemon and significantly hinder everything else with virtually no effort or skill required, especially not with the ease at which it can OHKO its targets a coverage move (unlike Wynaut that can only trap kill under specific circumstances). There is no real soft- or hardcounter to a Shadow Tag Gothitelle.
Gothitelle is BL.
reachzero; ban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat reachzero
Gothitelle not only substantially alters which other Pokemon are viable in the UU metagame by itself, it also significantly impacts the way the game itself is played. This not only includes actual in-battle tactics, but the fundamentals of UU teambuilding. UU is home to a number of high-powered offensive threats such as Heracross, Darmanitan, Victini, Raikou etc. The usual method of handling these Pokemon is to carry Pokemon capable of switching into these threats more than once and at the minimum forcing them out. Virtually every UU team has specific Pokemon that absolutely must be protected in other to prevent a sweep by the other team. A team that relies on Gligar to protect against Heracross and CB Flygon cannot afford to lose Gligar even at the cost of sacrificing other assets in a game against an opponent with both Heracross and CB Flygon. If that team also has Gothitelle, that aspect of gameplay is well-nigh impossible, as switching Gligar into U-turn means certain death to Gothitelle’s Hidden Power Ice (even if Gligar U-turns out of Scarf Gothitelle, it dies the next time it switches in to Stealth Rocks). Gligar is a particularly extreme example, but there are an incredible range of situations which could be used to illustrate this point. Gothitelle makes defending against certain threats nearly impossible, especially since it can carry multiple attacks to target multiple defensive Pokemon within the same battle. Realistically, between its Scarf set and its Specs set, both of which are fairly common in high-level play, Gothitelle can almost completely neutralize Swampert, Rhyperior, Gligar, Nidoking, Roserade, Mienshao and Slowbro, to the point where using these Pokemon is far too risky for them to be truly viable.[/COLOR]
At this point, it is worth discussing why Gothitelle is so powerful in contract to Dugtrio, which disappointed in its stint in UU. The major differences are movepool and bulk--Gothitelle can destroy a far greater range of Pokemon using a Specs or Scarf set than Dugtrio could using a Choice Band set, since Dugtrio is terribly dependent on Earthquake. Also, 2HKOs matter for Gothitelle, since unlike Dugtrio is has the bulk to comfortably survive the sort of attacks that primarily defensive Pokemon like Milotic or Slowbro can throw at it.
Of course, elite players can and do “adapt” to Gothitelle, by not using Pokemon that are totally destroyed by it (even when that means using sub-standard Pokemon, like Druddigon, to check serious threats like Darmanitan), and by not building teams in which one Pokemon is expected to handle a number of threats (Milotic, etc.). However, doing so not only fundamentally changes teambuilding (and makes these teams much less effective against teams not using Gothitelle, of course), it still does little to prevent Gothitelle from guaranteeing important revenge kills, etc.
[COLOR=#000000]In summary, Gothitelle causes several otherwise strong Pokemon to become utter liabilities, totally changes the dynamics of defensive play, even for offensive teams, and makes several powerful offensive threats almost impossible to defend. As such, Gothitelle is too powerful for the UU metagame, and should be banned.
RT.; ban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat RT.
My vote: ban Gothitelle
Gothitelle is a lot like Sand Stream, in that it puts a huge strain on both teambuilding and the metagame around it. That’s the primary reason why Sand Stream was banned, and I think the same reasoning is applicable here. Assuming normal battle conditions, (as in, the opponent isn’t using 6 pokemon that have nothing to fear from Psychic/Psyshock, Grass Knot, HP Ice, Shadow Ball, or Thunderbolt) Gothitelle is pretty much guaranteed 1-2 kills of its choice, meaning pokemon like Heracross, Darmanitan and Raikou have a much easier time plowing through teams. The main arguments against its ban are usually “it’s too slow and frail”, “it has bad typing”, or “it’s not powerful enough to keep up with the metagame.” All things considered, none of these matters since Gothitelle has the perfect stats to do what it needs to –essentially, kill or cripple walls like Gligar, Snorlax, Rhyperior, Swampert, and Slowbro. Against offensive teams Gothitelle is actually just as threatening, because most offensive teams will rely on Choice Scarf Pokemon to check a lot of threats. Luring an Earthquake from Flygon or a Close Combat from Heracross is not a hard thing to do, and Gothitelle has the defenses to tank a hit from either of those and OHKO with the appropriate move. Given the huge effect Goth has on teambuilding, the extent to which it is able to support the aforementioned sweepers, and how it completely dismantles stall, I have to say that Gothitelle has enough of a negative impact on the metagame that it needs to be removed.
Upstart; ban
Gothitelle is broken due to the uncompetitive nature of trapping abilities. Her mediocre stats and horrible typing just barely push Gothitelle and her ability over the edge. She has a relatively wide movepool allowing her to be tailored to taking out certain threats. She is able to 2hko defensive threats with specs or ohko offensive threats with scarf. Her ability to trap and KO these crucial threats provides tremendous support to many of UU’s powerhouse allowing them to sweep without anything stopping them. Additional support can be found by taking advantage of Gothitelle’s other support options such as Tickle, which ease set up once again allowing one pokemon to sweep through whole teams. Simply put the support that Gothitelle offers takes away a competitive aspect of pokemon, while at the same time she has the ability to guarantee death of at the very least one pokemon, allowing one pokemon to readily sweep. This level of support breaks Gothitelle.
If you have anything to say about this, please do so in the new megathread.
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Last edited by kokoloko; Sep 10th, 2012 at 10:51:35 PM.
Reason: Added Upstart's paragraph.
Aug 31st, 2012, 5:23:09 PM
