Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat bodon

He will make haxorus look like nothing

Well, two things that Haxorus has over Garchomp is it's ability to hit things like Rotom-W, Bronzong and Gengar with Earthquake, and acess to Dragon Dance. Isn't that sufficient to separate him from Garchomp? I wouldn't be surprised to see other sets deemed outclassed by Garchomp unless you really wants to hit the aforementioned threats with Earthquake.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat bodon

He will make haxorus look like nothing

I'd say he will mostly outclass Haxorus as a Swords Dancer, though Haxorus still has his niche as the most powerful Dragon Dancer outside Ubers.

[papai noel]

I can't see Garchomp outclassing Haxorus, especially now with his new moves introduced in BW2. Haxorus still hits hard like a truck and he has Dragon Dance, something that Garchomp dreams with. The Double Dancer Haxorus set is something that Garchomp won't be able to pull off, neither in power or speed. Maybe now Haxorus will be worse as a scarfer, but there were few who used it with Scarf anyways. And Haxorus is still able to hit Rotom-W, Gengar and Bronzong for super-effective damage, something Garchomp can't get.

[Prevent]

Chomp is overrated imo! I think him being in OU with only Rough Skin, is viable in the current meta-game. I also think it would had some new refreshment to the current meta-game. moarsand?

[Machi]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

What I find interesting is why people are so reluctant in coupling Swords Dance with Outrage on Garchomp. It's like they are convinced that STAB EQ is a replacement for Outrage, and that's so far from the truth. I've seen so many SD Garchomps fail because it can't hit hard enough with Dragon Claw / EQ. Outrage is great mid-game for wall-breaking purposes, as well as for late-game sweeping purposes. In short, Outrage is just as effective on Garchomp as in other dragons, and to not use it is a waste of Garchomp's potential imo.

I actually noticed this as well both in playing battles and observing... Its rather odd that people are sticking at the moment to mostly using Dragon Claw over Outrage, especially in Sub SD sets. The thing is its not as if people don't use Outrage on the other dragons but why is there such hesitation on using it with Chomp? I mean Outrage was pretty much his bread and butter set in OU during his initial stint, since it landed more kills than Dragon Claw would with the same boost. Its certainly underplaying Chomp if you're not using Outrage, it may not be coming from a 147 atk but keep in mind it is coming from a +2 Atk boost from a very respectable 130 Atk and having 102 base speed means its immediately faster than many mons. Its also somewhat underplaying his 102 base speed just because he doesn't have Dragon dance given that the general dancers would actually need 2 dances to safely avoid the common scarf users in the first place.

Edit: Also I was wondering a bit didn't the topic title a while back change to remove the Sand Veil part so as to focus on chomp? Why was it returned if there is encouragement to return the thread to discussing Garchomp, it sends mixed messages of do you actually welcome sand veil discussions or do you just want to focus on Chomp (who pretty much has a large following for it to be free).

[Rayquaza_]

Sand Veil was a mere annoyance, it certainly wasn't what made Garchomp so dangerous.
It's the combination of stats, STAB and movepool that did.

Besides in a metagame dominated by rain Sand Veil wouldn't see muchuse anyway. I'd rather use an ability that is active 100% of the time over one that is active 25% of the time.

Garchomp is single-handedly going to demolish most sun teams and since it doesn't benefit from sand anymore and it doesn't fit in hail teams, this will make rain teams even more centralizing.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

I'd say he will mostly outclass Haxorus as a Swords Dancer, though Haxorus still has his niche as the most powerful Dragon Dancer outside Ubers.

Actually, i'd say that SD Haxorus is a better stallbreaker than SD Garchomp. It needs rain support, but after a Swords Dance its pretty much OHKOing everything on stall barring Skarmory, who is by +2 Aqua Tail (60.77 - 71.55%). I usually use Lum Berry on SD Haxorus, but I might consider using Mystic Water to boost its Aqua Tail in & out of rain.

+2 Mystic Water Aqua Tail in the rain vs Skarmory: 72.75 - 85.92%
+2 Mystic Water Aqua Tail vs Skarmory: 48.8 - 57.48% (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)

Not bad.

---
I wouldn't say that Haxorus is outclassed by Garchomp, but Garchomp is usually a better pick most of the time. Like there are still merits to running CB Haxorus, but for the most part Garchomp is a safer pick. I like pairing them together though, because Haxorus lures out and weakens Garchomp's checks & counters :>

[Dallasboi1992]

Originally Posted by Fat Emeral

Garchomp is a good pokemon but no decent. Choice scarf Garchomp is usefull to revenge kill common threats such as Tornadus/Thundurus-T, Genesect or Dnite but many pokemon can wall this set easily. It has a lot of counters and I don't find it to powerfull for OU. Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Gliscor and Lando-T can switch without problem against Scarfchomp. There are other pokemon like Mamoswine or breelom which will cause to garchomp hudge dammage with their powerfull priority move.
The second moveset is the Swords dancer. It's most of the time played with yachee berry or leftovers and it s very good cleaner in late game. Although it is easily stoppable because of its speed not enough high, this moveset can be decent against stall teams if the bronzong, Hippowdon or skarmory has fainted. It's why this pokemon is so interesting and very pleasant to play.

After this practice tour, I conclude that garchomp is a good pokemon but not enough powerfull to be banned from OU.

Edit: waw sorry I pushed 3 times send button...

Pretty much my feelings exactly. Chomp has plenty of checks in this metagame. Tornadus-T easily outspeeds Chomp (provided it's not scarfed) and can smash it with HP Ice (provided he's not holding a Yache Berry). Landorus-T with his Intimidate can easily come in on Chomp and take a few Outrages. Outrage is a 3HKO on the standard Defensive Gliscor and a 4HKO on Hippowdon whom in return 2HKOs it with Ice Fang and can Slack Off any damage Garchomp dealt to it. Skarmory and Bronzong are either immune to or resist both of its STABs (the former of the two having reliable recovery & Whirlwind to phaze the SD set out). Earthquake is a 4HKO on Standard Ferrothorn. If Keldeo can snipe Scarfed Garchomp with Icy Wind and has a 62.5% chance of OHKOing it with Hydro Pump outside of the rain (provided it's Specs) and can also live 1 hit from Chomp whether it be EQ or Outrage. Mamoswine, Weavile (whom I rarely even see in OU), and Cloyster each have priority Ice Shard. Cloyster is also 2 or 3HKO'd by Outrage due to his Base 180 defense and can also Smash then retaliate with Icicle Spear. If Garchomp isn't Scarfed, then the Lati twins along with Scarfed dragons like Hydreigon, Salamence, and Haxorus can smash it with their Dragon STABs. Max HP Max Defense Bold Slowbro is at best 2HKO'd by a Banded Garchomp's Outrage (factoring in min-max damage if Chomp is not Adamant) and can recover Chomp's blows with Slack Off or Regenerator and also has a 25% chance of OHKOing back with Ice Beam (non-Yache variants anyways). Other bulky waters like Vaporeon, Suicune. and Milotic are 3HKO'd by a non-boosted Outrage if they're Max HP & Defense and also ruin Chomp's day with Ice Beam (Vaporeon and Milotic both have forms of recovery in Wish and Recover respectively). Scarfed Infernape also has a 31.25% chance to OHKO Non-Yache Garchomp (but it of course can't switch into anything). And we all know that a physical threat like Garchomp sure as hell can NOT tolerate a burn.

Without Sand Veil causing moves to miss and letting Garchomp sweep your team with the SubSD set, Garchomp isn't broken. It can be dealt with. Just gotta know what type of Garchomp you're dealing with. After that, you can deal with it accordingly.

[shrang]

I personally would be extremely disappointed if we let Garchomp into OU and its standard set was ScarfChomp.

Anyway, as of Rough Skin Garchomp, I think if any Garchomp set is close to broken, it would have to be YacheChomp, IMO. Unless your name is Cloyster, Lati@s or Weavile with Choice Band Ice Punch, you are not killing Garchomp without a Scarf (which makes them quite easy to remove through Wobbuffet). Its sheer bulk, attack and speed means Garchomp is more than likely to get at least a kill a match. With the exception of Skarmory and Bronzong (who still both get hit very hard by sun boosted Fire Blast or Fire Fang and will end up losing to Garchomp 1v1), physical walls in general are not having an easy time with YacheChomp either. Every physical wall apart from the aforementioned Skarm and Bronzong are looking at 2HKOs from Outrage, while weak Ice Beams/Ice Fangs aren't doing piss to YacheChomp.

EDIT: Oh, and don't hate on Rough Skin. It is legitimately a very annoying ability. Nothing says "fuck you" more than getting your 20% Garchomp revenged by Techniloom with Mach Punch, and then watching that bloody Breloom take 22.5% damage due to LO and Rough Skin.

[SpecsX]

Hell, I'd use Rough Skin over Sand Veil(if it was allowed), because it has more constant use than hoping to run into a sand team to hax your way through. Also, Forretress falls to Fire Fang+Rough Skin, so it could be used as a Pseudo-spinblocker for offensive teams, if you can lower the spinner's health enough.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

I say we ban Sand Veil and Garchomp. Garchomp wasn't broken because of SV, it was broken because its STABs are unresisted by everything not named Skarmory or Bronzong.

[goldursaring]

Personally, I'd be in favor of looking into different tiers for Pokemon based on the ability they run. It could bring some options and life into lower tiers. Changes in their abilities lifted Blaziken, Politoed and Ninetales out of UU with a new generation.

It's also important to remember that bans on Pokemon can result in less diversity, and as of late diversity has taken something of a hit.

[SpecsX]

Goldusaring, doing this wouldd make everything so complex it would take weeks to learn everyone's teirs, and then it woud just change every months, making teirs even more confusing.
The best solution IMO would be to ban Sand Veil+Sand Stream. I don't see any drawbacks to this solution.(please point any out, if you find some)

[Aquasition]

I think there are going to be a lot of teams consisting of:

Garchomp
Garchomp Counter*2
Garchomp Counter Counter*2
Filler.


Oh Boy. As much as I like Garchomp, this might not be the best idea, due to lack of true counters, and the gimmickyness of said counters. No to mention the annoyingness of rough skin. It's not game breaking, but it will be annoying. 'Chomp is very powerful, but juust versatile enough to run several move sets.

[/B/utterfree]

Originally Posted by Fat IstheCakeReallyaLie

Garchomp wasn't broken because of SV, it was broken because its STABs are unresisted by everything not named Skarmory or Bronzong.

I agree with this following statement entirely. Sand Veil is a very situational ability in of itself, and that's not why Garchomp was banned. Not even close to the reason when it has OutQuake for STAB, Stone Edge for primary coverage, a Yache Berry to laugh at Ice-type attacks, and all the necessary things to make the rest of the tier bow before it. It overcentralized a metagame just by being Garchomp, and unbanning it would cause problems.

Rough Skin is a superior ability on the whole because physical attackers like Mamoswine and Weavile would have a difficult time trying to revenge Rough Skin variants, not to mention stuff like Rocky Helmet (a secondary item compared to Yache) and the revengers running Life Orb adding to the recoil mess, as well as Sand damage adding in to all of that.

Also, forcing people to run Skarmory and Bronzong on every team will make OU less fun than it already is(n't).

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Aquasition

'Chomp is very powerful, but juust versatile enough to run several move sets.

Versatile? Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Swords Dance, and possibly a bulky set because of Rough Skin. He can only use physical moves since his SpA is kinda low. The only versatile part of Chomp is that he runs Yache Berry sometimes. Overall, he is not a versatile pokemon at all.

[ginganinja]

Actually, I am pretty sure that Garchomp was banned mostly due to Sand Veil. It had other factors going for it, excellent bulk. above average speed, access to Swords Dance, strong STAB attacks in EQ and Outrage, however, it was the abuse of Sand Veil that caused many players to become frustrated with it in the metagame.

Sand Veil pushed Comp over the edge in BW1, due to the fact that it could sub roughly 5 times, turning every 100% accurate move into Stone Edge, and stall for a miss. With the free turn, Chomp could find the time to get a free boost with Swords Dance, or kill your revenge killer with Outrage / Earthquake. The combination of everything Garchomp had going for it, plus the 20% boost to its evasion and what it could do with a free turn, pushed it over the edge and hence, it was banned.

[Aquasition]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

Versatile? Choice Scarf, Choice Band, Swords Dance, and possibly a bulky set because of Rough Skin. He can only use physical moves since his SpA is kinda low. The only versatile part of Chomp is that he runs Yache Berry sometimes. Overall, he is not a versatile pokemon at all.

Hence the just. He can't run too many move sets, but just enough for a minor guessing game. It will kinda hurt if you guess wrong, but not as bad if you guessed, say, that breloom was a sub puncher when actually he was a Techniloom.

Also, you forgot to mention Chain-Chomp(Arf Arf!)

[shrang]

Versatile isn't always the number of sets it can run, but generally how easily you can fit it into a team and how much support you need to give it. In my experiences using Garchomp (both during this test or pre-banning or in DW), Chomp is definitely one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, being able to fit into pretty much every team you want it to and it would still do what it does.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Actually, I am pretty sure that Garchomp was banned mostly due to Sand Veil. It had other factors going for it, excellent bulk. above average speed, access to Swords Dance, strong STAB attacks in EQ and Outrage, however, it was the abuse of Sand Veil that caused many players to become frustrated with it in the metagame.

Sand Veil pushed Comp over the edge in BW1, due to the fact that it could sub roughly 5 times, turning every 100% accurate move into Stone Edge, and stall for a miss. With the free turn, Chomp could find the time to get a free boost with Swords Dance, or kill your revenge killer with Outrage / Earthquake. The combination of everything Garchomp had going for it, plus the 20% boost to its evasion and what it could do with a free turn, pushed it over the edge and hence, it was banned.

Yeah, that's the important thing to keep in mind. With Sand Veil up, a 100% accurate move only has a 32.8% chance of breaking five Substitutes in a row, meaning that outside of a few rare methods to circumvent it, the odds were in favor of Garchomp gaining the free turn it needed to smash through most reasonable countermeasures. So it's not just that there was a chance that things might go wrong, but that the most likely way for them to go made Garchomp too difficult to reasonably stop.

[melvni]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Actually, I am pretty sure that Garchomp was banned mostly due to Sand Veil. It had other factors going for it, excellent bulk. above average speed, access to Swords Dance, strong STAB attacks in EQ and Outrage, however, it was the abuse of Sand Veil that caused many players to become frustrated with it in the metagame.

Sand Veil pushed Comp over the edge in BW1, due to the fact that it could sub roughly 5 times, turning every 100% accurate move into Stone Edge, and stall for a miss. With the free turn, Chomp could find the time to get a free boost with Swords Dance, or kill your revenge killer with Outrage / Earthquake. The combination of everything Garchomp had going for it, plus the 20% boost to its evasion and what it could do with a free turn, pushed it over the edge and hence, it was banned.

This is correct. I looked back over the nomination thread from back then because I thought I remembered it differently, but almost every Garchomp nomination mentioned Sand Veil as what put it over the edge.

[Stone RG]

I haven't played competitively for that long (almost a year now), but i started just the chomp ban, but i did play DW OU, and Sand in Ubers. Sand Veil is a very game changing ability, turning the game to to coin toss, however, as other people have said its a very situational fact.

I know this will probably not make a difference but i'll say it either way: Rain is so dominant in OU it doesn't even matter if you can abbuse sand, most rain team either way beat Sand always in the weather war either way. Plus, you guys know were not banning all chomp's sets, as a matter fact the only one the depended on Sand Veil quite heavily is the Sub SD one, who had absolutely no chance of getting past its nemesis: Skarm and Bronzong. The other sets didnt give a damn about Sand Veil, if they got it fine, but didnt abbuse it.

You must also remember that Sand Veil adds ''an unnecessary luck factor to the game'', guys what the hell. Hax is part of the game, i hit 5 hydro pumps in a row but miss 2 Heat Waves ftw. Was Sand Veil there? no, so i think we should give it a chance to remember that if we wanted the game to be fair and the best players win all the time just because they are better players, we would've created a simulator for chess (i know it already exists but lol its just an example).

[deluge]

Yeah, I don't believe sand veil 'adds hax'. It simply reduces the accuracy of the opponent's moves during a specific weather condition. Any move that is not 100% accurate may miss at an inopportune time. It's part of the game. Sand Veil simply applies an accuracy reduction to all moves when sandstorm is active. Stone Edge or Hydro Pump misses are likely more consistently game-changing than misses due to activated Sand Veil by the few Pokemon that may have the ability. But we've yet to advocate making every move like Aura Sphere to remove hax.

Does the Sand Veil ban open the door to banning Serene Grace? Why not? Why is it acceptable to be flinched 60% of the time but unnacceptable to miss 20% of the time? I don't think there is a consistent standard for establishing what is "too much luck/hax". Rather, there is a cultural bias against anything that looks like raised "evasion".

Personally, I think Garchomp should be tested with Sand Veil in the new BW2 metagame. If those on the council still believe it's overpowered in that environment it should remain banned. I like Garchomp in the game but I don't think banning an ability on all Pokemon is acceptable collateral damage. (I hope the floor wasn't closed to this discussion but I saw people talking about it so I jumped in)

Anyway, there is no doubt that chomp is more manageable when your moves always retain accuracy against it (as Jirachi would be if it couldn't flinch you to death). Residual damage from Rough Skin is great but Garchomp has to take damage and it lacks any form of recovery. Still, it's ability to soak up U-Turns and its immunity to VoltTurn comes in handy. It's a pity that a number of common VoltTurn users are immune to Earthquake so they don't have to be afraid of ground STAB.

[Sewa]

Originally Posted by Fat deluge

Does the Sand Veil ban open the door to banning Serene Grace? Why not? Why is it acceptable to be flinched 60% of the time but unnacceptable to miss 20% of the time? I don't think there is a consistent standard for establishing what is "too much luck/hax". Rather, there is a cultural bias against anything that looks like raised "evasion".

It's the same thing I was trying to say before I got silenced for the second time. We are looking at that 20% chance of not attacking as a game-breaking hax, but this is ridicolous when you have a monster like Jirachi (hey, Steel type, 600 BST like Chomp, way MORE versatile than chomp) that sits there and flinches you to death after.
Someone said that you HAVE to do something to activate the hax: you have to paralyze your target and you have to use Iron Head to flinch it, while with Sand Veil you have to do nothing. Well, it's not true: you HAVE to win the weather war, and in this meta with rain (stab rain-boosted hydropumps annihilate Hippowdon and LO superpower takes care of Tyranitar) I find it extremely hard, you HAVE to equip your Gliscor/Chomp with an inferior, non 100% sure ability, you HAVE to use substitute waiting for your enemy to miss dat scald/ice beam and after this you'll still have some chances (roughly 1/3) to fail this "game-breaking" strategy while.

I don't think Sand Veil is broken, not even on Chomp.

[Candice]

Wake up people ! Garchomp used to be so dangerous back when sand was more common than rain. Especially because of Sand Veil and while he was behind a sub. That was horrible to face, trying to hit him while he was setting up his Sword Dance and when you had this 20 % chance of missing your moves... But this pokemon was for some people the perfect Pokemon, the one that could fill the 6th spot. After he went to Ubers many people started to use Landorus and that's when we saw his true power. I think that because of the that, Garchomp is now not so dangerous like he used to be. He got this new ability Rough Skin, why shouldn't we use it ? This will bring him back to OU. We always had a difficult time facing a Sand Veil Garchomp, but what of a Rough Skin Garchomp ? This is a completly different story. Like Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned, I think Sand Veil should be banned too. Let's bring back this usefull Pokemon to where is truly belong = OU