Garchomp and Sand Veil Discussion

[blarajan]

Originally Posted by Fat Sewa

It's the same thing I was trying to say before I got silenced for the second time. We are looking at that 20% chance of not attacking as a game-breaking hax, but this is ridicolous when you have a monster like Jirachi (hey, Steel type, 600 BST like Chomp, way MORE versatile than chomp) that sits there and flinches you to death after.
Someone said that you HAVE to do something to activate the hax: you have to paralyze your target and you have to use Iron Head to flinch it, while with Sand Veil you have to do nothing. Well, it's not true: you HAVE to win the weather war, and in this meta with rain (stab rain-boosted hydropumps annihilate Hippowdon and LO superpower takes care of Tyranitar) I find it extremely hard, you HAVE to equip your Gliscor/Chomp with an inferior, non 100% sure ability, you HAVE to use substitute waiting for your enemy to miss dat scald/ice beam and after this you'll still have some chances (roughly 1/3) to fail this "game-breaking" strategy while.

I don't think Sand Veil is broken, not even on Chomp.

Do you see how this is pretty much entirely false or irrelevant to the actual argument?

1) you don't have to have the weather war "won" to have sand up for a period of turns. In these instances, while the weather war is being fought, there can easily be sand up, in which sand veil happens.
2) sand stream is a passive effect. Sand being up does not constrain the user's turn. Having to use a specific high secondary chance move, or using scald that turn, or forcing volcarona to be hit by a contact move DO constrain that turn. They force the turn for their effects. Sand veil, or any other evasion ability, does not.
3) the pokemon with sand veil DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. It can do whatever the hell it wants, as the only condition that needs to be met is you attempting to kill it. It can attack while relying on sand veil to escape damage, or use a support move, or set up, or anything, while relying on sand veil. There is nothing they have to do--and can thus do ANYTHING--and that's the problem.

I would consider the same for snow veil, but whatever.

[SpecsX]

I think that it's worth noting that if you don't have the weather war won, that's actually a benefit, as most players will go straight to their inducer, which nets you a free sub as sure as a miss would. Then you could SD and sweep, or EQ/Outrage to KO their weather-inducer.

[android]

Originally Posted by Fat blarajan

3) the pokemon with sand veil DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. It can do whatever the hell it wants, as the only condition that needs to be met is you attempting to kill it. It can attack while relying on sand veil to escape damage, or use a support move, or set up, or anything, while relying on sand veil. There is nothing they have to do--and can thus do ANYTHING--and that's the problem.

I would consider the same for snow veil, but whatever.

To abuse sand veil, the Pokemon does have to use Substitute every turn hoping for a miss, sacrificing 25% of it's health each time. Meanwhile Jirachi is recovering HP every turn while flinching your Pokemon to death.

Doing anything other than substituting is pretty foolish, and if you are referring to a Sand Veil Pokemon randomly haxing the opponent while attacking, that is precisely what Jirachi does, only with a much higher (60%) success rate. Or do you mean boosting? Jirachi also has a better chance than a Sand Veil mon of grabbing a free boost or using a support move, once you're paralyzed (25%>20%), but I digress; that has more to do with the nature of paralysis than Serene Grace, though Serene Grace likely caused said paralysis.

Those problems seem pretty similar, only flinch/para hax seems worse than evasion hax. Both are uncompetitive imo.

[SpecsX]

All you need to do to avoid Paraflinch is to be faster. If Chomp is allowed back in, thats a great check to Paraflinch Rachi. Also, if you're a ground-type, you avoid all Paralysis except for Body Slam, which is rare. Also, getting burned completely screws Jirachi. There are two counters to Sand Veil: Using moves that never miss(Aerial Ace, etc.), or changing the weather, which requires a switch and a free turn, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place

[android]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

All you need to do to avoid Paraflinch is to be faster. If Chomp is allowed back in, thats a great check to Paraflinch Rachi. Also, if you're a ground-type, you avoid all Paralysis except for Body Slam, which is rare. Also, getting burned completely screws Jirachi. There are two counters to Sand Veil: Using moves that never miss(Aerial Ace, etc.), or changing the weather, which requires a switch and a free turn, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place

If you are paralyzed, you aren't faster than Jirachi. That is the premise of paraflinch. Garchomp can't switch in on Jirachi without risking being paralyzed.

Body Slam is standard on paraflinching Jirachi. It was used on 32.648% of all Jirachi this past August, Jirachi's third most commonly known move; compare to Thunder Wave at 18.483%. It is hardly rare, and clearly the preferred method of inducing paralysis for the reason you stated: it paralyzes ground types.

I agree that Sand Veil poses a similar problem, and I suppose that Choice Scarf Golurk, Limber, and Inner Focus are the only counters to paraflinch. I must reiterate that both are uncompetitive in my view.

[Electrolyte]

In no way are Sand Veil and Serene Grace even on the same boat. Serene Grace Jirachi in Rain is a lot easier to handle than Sand Veil YacheChomp in Sand. For one, statusing Jirachi completely shuts it down, whereas you'd be quite stupid to ever attempt to status Chomp in Sand, even with 100% accuracy moves like Spore and (-_-) Glare. Serene Grace relies on movesets as well- whereas Sand Veil only relies on a passive, everlasting effect. If Rachi runs Body Slam, ghost types handle it easily. If it has Twave or Thunder, throw in a Ground type and OHKO. Natural Cure users can also handle Jirachi well, and bait in Iron Heads so a faster sweeper can come in without worrying about paralysis. Really, the only thing that can successfully and reliable counter Garchomp are pokemon with moves like Arial Ace or Swift- and nobody uses those moves. Weather inducers can work too, but dispose of them and you are pretty much free to sweep.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Body Slam is really the preferred method of paralysis? It's is less consistent than Thunder Wave and can't still affect another type of Pokémon: Ghost. And most Ghost-types cannot OHKO Jirachi while Ground-types can be haxed to death, but if they have a chance to move, it's Earthquake Earthquake, bye bye Jirachi.

Don't Skarmory and Bronzong count as counters? (pun not intended) Skarmory phazes Garchomp if it isn't the last Pokémon in the team, and Bronzong kill him with HP Ice. The problem is that they still have a hard time doing this under sanstorm, however.

[android]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

In no way are Sand Veil and Serene Grace even on the same boat. Serene Grace Jirachi in Rain is a lot easier to handle than Sand Veil YacheChomp in Sand. For one, statusing Jirachi completely shuts it down, whereas you'd be quite stupid to ever attempt to status Chomp in Sand, even with 100% accuracy moves like Spore and (-_-) Glare. Serene Grace relies on movesets as well- whereas Sand Veil only relies on a passive, everlasting effect. If Rachi runs Body Slam, ghost types handle it easily. If it has Twave or Thunder, throw in a Ground type and OHKO. Natural Cure users can also handle Jirachi well, and bait in Iron Heads so a faster sweeper can come in without worrying about paralysis. Really, the only thing that can successfully and reliable counter Garchomp are pokemon with moves like Arial Ace or Swift- and nobody uses those moves. Weather inducers can work too, but dispose of them and you are pretty much free to sweep.

Sand Veil Garchomp is broken and Jirachi isn't. I do not dispute this. Yet paraflinching and Sand Veil Abuse are very much in the same boat.

Sand Veil abuse relies on Substitute. Sand Veil Garchomp would prefer not to SD in Mamoswine's face or Outrage while not behind a Sub. Sand Veil doesn't provide invincibility. Also, Glare is 90% accuracy.

If you happen be carrying a Jellicent when your opponent has Body Slam/Iron Head/U-Turn/Wish Jirachi, then you're in luck. You will be out of luck if it turns out to be SubCM Jirachi. That aside, there are several Pokemon that beat Jirachi 1 on 1, but we are discussing 6 on 6.

I maintain that paraflinching is an uncompetitive strategy. Not broken, just uncompetitive.

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Body Slam is really the preferred method of paralysis? It's is less consistent than Thunder Wave and can't still affect another type of Pokémon: Ghost. And most Ghost-types cannot OHKO Jirachi while Ground-types can be haxed to death, but if they have a chance to move, it's Earthquake Earthquake, bye bye Jirachi.

Don't Skarmory and Bronzong count as counters? (pun not intended) Skarmory phazes Garchomp if it isn't the last Pokémon in the team, and Bronzong kill him with HP Ice. The problem is that they still have a hard time doing this under sanstorm, however.

By 'preferred', I mean it is the most commonly used. I even provided statistics. The only Ghosts in OU are Gengar and Jellicent. There are several Ground types in OU, which is why players opt for Body Slam more often.

If they get a chance to move they can defeat Jirachi. That's the problem. There's a (edit) 30% chance of that happening on any turn that Jirachi uses Iron Head. You've got a better chance of breaking four of Garchomp's substitutes (38%). Sometimes you will KO Jirachi. Most of the time he will KO you. If you get lucky, you can win. That is uncompetitive in my opinion, and puts paraflinch in the same boat as Sand Veil.

[DrDLO]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

In no way are Sand Veil and Serene Grace even on the same boat. Serene Grace Jirachi in Rain is a lot easier to handle than Sand Veil YacheChomp in Sand. For one, statusing Jirachi completely shuts it down, whereas you'd be quite stupid to ever attempt to status Chomp in Sand, even with 100% accuracy moves like Spore and (-_-) Glare. Serene Grace relies on movesets as well- whereas Sand Veil only relies on a passive, everlasting effect. If Rachi runs Body Slam, ghost types handle it easily. If it has Twave or Thunder, throw in a Ground type and OHKO. Natural Cure users can also handle Jirachi well, and bait in Iron Heads so a faster sweeper can come in without worrying about paralysis. Really, the only thing that can successfully and reliable counter Garchomp are pokemon with moves like Arial Ace or Swift- and nobody uses those moves. Weather inducers can work too, but dispose of them and you are pretty much free to sweep.

I agree with this and what people were saying about always accurate moves (aerial ace, etc). For someone to truly deal with SV chomp 100% of the time they need to carry one of these moves or have something like wide lens (O.o) EDIT: Truly in a sense of dealing with the sand veil issue, not Chomp itself (eg. Skarm etc). This situation centralizes the meta so that teams would have to carry these moves (item). It's similar (not the same, but similar) back when Exca was suspect; people had to have Bronzong if they truly wanted to deal with it. Parahax Jirach, as stated before, can be dealt with by a majority of strategies--none of which are outlandish and are carried on most teams: ghost pokes (body slam), ground pokes (twave), priority after paralysis (mach punch, aqua jet [less common]), or a scarfer (probably the best answer and on almost every team anyway) such as landorus (has eq), salamence (has eq), genesect (has flamethrower). All of these strategies are employed by most teams and not unthinkable to carry regardless of whether or not the opponent has parahax Jirachi

[Electrolyte]

The closest I can say Serene Grace relates to Sand Veil is that they both 'manipulate' hax, and 'prevent' opponents from attacking you. However, the way they do it is completely different- and that's why I don't think they should be compared. Also, isn't this a Garchomp thread? I don't think it's relevant to talk about banning Serene Grace on a thread solely for Garchomp, as the two don't really relate whatsoever.

I have seen people use a set of Swords Dance / Outrage / EQ / Fire Fang, and that thing plows through teams like there's no tomorrow. If Skarmory comes in as Garchomp Swords Dances, it's going to lose more than half its HP through Fire Fang. Bronzong is on the same boat- FF does ~65-75% to Bronzong as well. Skarm can Whirlwind, but with Sand Veil, it's not as reliable- and if it misses, you've just lost a wall and have a +2 Garchomp to deal with. Rough Skin makes Garchomp quite a lot easier to Whirlwind away, but even still if it sets up again you're pretty much dead.

It is fun to make opponents lose 10% health just to revenge your 1% Garchomp though.

[android]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

The closest I can say Serene Grace relates to Sand Veil is that they both 'manipulate' hax, and 'prevent' opponents from attacking you. However, the way they do it is completely different- and that's why I don't think they should be compared. Also, isn't this a Garchomp thread? I don't think it's relevant to talk about banning Serene Grace on a thread solely for Garchomp, as the two don't really relate whatsoever.

I have seen people use a set of Swords Dance / Outrage / EQ / Fire Fang, and that thing plows through teams like there's no tomorrow. If Skarmory comes in as Garchomp Swords Dances, it's going to lose more than half its HP through Fire Fang. Bronzong is on the same boat- FF does ~65-75% to Bronzong as well. Skarm can Whirlwind, but with Sand Veil, it's not as reliable- and if it misses, you've just lost a wall and have a +2 Garchomp to deal with. Rough Skin makes Garchomp quite a lot easier to Whirlwind away, but even still if it sets up again you're pretty much dead.

It is fun to make opponents lose 10% health just to revenge your 1% Garchomp though.

Fair enough. For what it's worth I agree that Sand Veil is more dangerous.

As for whether or not Rough Skin Garchomp will be broken, only time will tell. It doesn't seem to be broken at the moment.

[SpecsX]

I personally have seen way more Jirachi's used in Rain than outside of it. Rough Skin Chomp is in no way broken. It might not even be a top-tier threat, as it kinda needs a Scarf to outspeed important pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Scarf Moxiemence, Tornadus-T, Landorus, etc. I foresee Scarfchomp being the most popuar set.

[Sewa]

Originally Posted by Fat blarajan

Do you see how this is pretty much entirely false or irrelevant to the actual argument?

1) you don't have to have the weather war "won" to have sand up for a period of turns. In these instances, while the weather war is being fought, there can easily be sand up, in which sand veil happens.
2) sand stream is a passive effect. Sand being up does not constrain the user's turn. Having to use a specific high secondary chance move, or using scald that turn, or forcing volcarona to be hit by a contact move DO constrain that turn. They force the turn for their effects. Sand veil, or any other evasion ability, does not.
3) the pokemon with sand veil DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. It can do whatever the hell it wants, as the only condition that needs to be met is you attempting to kill it. It can attack while relying on sand veil to escape damage, or use a support move, or set up, or anything, while relying on sand veil. There is nothing they have to do--and can thus do ANYTHING--and that's the problem.

I would consider the same for snow veil, but whatever.

1) It's just hard to have few turns of sand: Tyranitar fears scalds and SE water attacks in general, u-turn and superpower (
2) sand being up DOES costrain a player to switch-in their weather setupper and makes it take hazards damage and the incoming attack.
3)

To abuse sand veil, the Pokemon does have to use Substitute every turn hoping for a miss, sacrificing 25% of it's health each time. Meanwhile Jirachi is recovering HP every turn while flinching your Pokemon to death.

Ah, paralysis is 25% chance for the enemy to not move while you can do anything you want (watch point 2 if you're going to say "you have to paralyze your opponent"). Why not ban it too?

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

I personally have seen way more Jirachi's used in Rain than outside of it. Rough Skin Chomp is in no way broken. It might not even be a top-tier threat, as it kinda needs a Scarf to outspeed important pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Scarf Moxiemence, Tornadus-T, Landorus, etc. I foresee Scarfchomp being the most popuar set.

I apologize for nitpicking, but you realize that Landorus is base 101 and Garchomp is base 102, right? Garchomp's suprior speed and straight-up Jesus STAB combination of Dragon/Ground threaten to make Landorus-I obsolete.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

I apologize for nitpicking, but you realize that Landorus is base 101 and Garchomp is base 102, right? Garchomp's suprior speed and straight-up Jesus STAB combination of Dragon/Ground threaten to make Landorus-I obsolete.

Not really, Lord of Bays. Landorus-I has resistances to Fighting, an immunity to Ground (and this mean that it can get more free switches unlike Landorus). Landorus has a better ability in form of Sand Force, wich makes up for the lack of power that the Choice Scarf set would otherwise have (and the lack of STAB on Stone Edge). Also, Landorus is much more versatile than Garchomp. Sure that it would receive competition from Garchomp as the revenge killer of choice in sandstorm teams, but Landorus-I is by no way outclassed by Garchomp.

Even if the Choice Scarf set were to be deemed outclassed by Garchomp, Landorus-I still has other sets, even some that Garchomp cannot have, such as a Special Attacker and Gravity.

[deluge]

Well, I'll just sum up my thoughts and leave it alone:

1. Sand Veil is not that threatening. It only works in specific conditions and few exceptional Pokemon have access to it. Abilities such as Shadow Tag are far more powerful in their own right. The reduction to 100% accurate moves is like being forced to use Hydro Pump over Surf. It's possible that Garchomp is too threatening in its full capacity but then I suggest that we're banning the wrong thing.

2. The 'hax' involved with Sand Veil cuts both ways and is usually more favourable to the attacker. Lets say your opponent has played well. They've won the weather war, have sandstorm active and have a Sand Veil Garchomp. You've preserved your Latios which is the only thing left that outspeeds and can KO. Since you're packing Dragon Pulse you have a better chance to win than to lose. Sand Veil only keeps the Garchomp player in the game. It's not an overwhelming advantage. In this scenario, for all his trouble of winning the weather war, the Garchomp player will only prevail 1/5 of the time instead of never. Broken?

3. It is inconsistent. An ability such as Serene Grace raises hax to the level of certainty. You WILL be haxed. Sand Veil is very tame in comparison. However, I'm not advocating banning Serene Grace (or Jirachi for that matter). Sawsbuck gets it too and nobody cares. Which brings me to the point that it's the Pokemon that needs to be explored in its full capacity. We should rarely be banning abilities in isolation.

4. Banning the ability on all Pokemon is an overreaction. It is an editorial decision that evasion increase in a sandstorm is "not good". I don't think it has anything to do with whether it's overpowered.

[ginganinja]

The 'hax' involved with Sand Veil cuts both ways and is usually more favourable to the attacker. Lets say your opponent has played well. They've won the weather war, have sandstorm active and have a Sand Veil Garchomp. You've preserved your Latios which is the only thing left that outspeeds and can KO. Since you're packing Dragon Pulse you have a better chance to win than to lose. Sand Veil only keeps the Garchomp player in the game. It's not an overwhelming advantage. In this scenario, for all his trouble of winning the weather war, the Garchomp player will only prevail 1/5 of the time instead of never. Broken?

Then your Dragon Pulse misses and the Garchomp player recieved an undeserved win. This sort of thing happened where players would not miss just just once against Garchomp, some missed 3 attacks in a row against it. The problem many players had with it is that by rights, they had a game won, and then they would miss a crucial attack against Garchomp, and would lose the game, through no real fault of there own. Nor is this problem limited to Garchomp, Funkasaurus used Sand Veil Gliscor and I understand many people were frustrated in that they also lost games due to Sand Veil. The point is, Sand Veil is a passive ability, in that you can make a move, and still get that evasion chance. This is different to Serene Grace which is not passive, it requires you to spam Iron Head for a flinch.

4. Banning the ability on all Pokemon is an overreaction. It is an editorial decision that evasion increase in a sandstorm is "not good". I don't think it has anything to do with whether it's overpowered.

Technically the only pokemon that would be affected would be Cacturne and many players feel that this is an o.k price to play. Sand Veil is annoying in many tiers, UU for example, removed Sandstorm (iirc?) which handicapped SV Gligar, as well as Stoutland. Basically, Sand Veil is a passive effect, that can give user an unfair advantage, especially since free turns are amazing in pokemon, for this reason, as well as the points I made above, I personally an fine with it getting removed somehow.

[SpecsX]

@Lord of Bays: Shit, you're right, I thought Lando had 111 speed for some reason.

@deluge: I fail too see how Sand Veil "cuts both ways". Last I checked, getting a free turn because the opponent's Surf suddenly became a weaker Hydro Pump(through NO fault of their own) is NEVER a disavantageous scenario.

[Eclypse]

Isn't the burden of proof for unbanning on the Pokemon, not the ability? Many users keep revisiting why Sand Veil YacheChomp is broken compared to other Pokemon that rely on hax (mainly revolving around Jirachi), but still assert that Sand Veil is the true culprit and Chomp should be unbanned. I have seen little evidence offerring why Rough Skin YacheChomp isn't still broken or overcentralizing, just how it is comparatively LESS broken than its accuracy-reducing counterpart. The straw man arguments abound.

Think of the precedent this would set if Garchomp was unbanned and Sand Veil was removed in its place, simply because a majority of voters don't want to have to deal with Sand Veil. Does Snow Cloak - an ability no one really had any interest in discussing until now - fall under the microscope next? I heard someone say that it was a "fair price to pay" if they were banned if that meant Chomp could be freed, but isn't that position flawed at the core? That doesn't sound like a community interested in creating an environment supporting as many viable playstyles as possible, even if an ability is deemed by many as "uncompetitive." It seems a little more like activism in looking for a reason to free a popular Pokemon, at the "price" of a few uncompetitive, (read: unpopular) abilities.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Eclypse

Isn't the burden of proof for unbanning on the Pokemon, not the ability? Many users keep revisiting why Sand Veil YacheChomp is broken compared to other Pokemon that rely on hax (mainly revolving around Jirachi), but still assert that Sand Veil is the true culprit and Chomp should be unbanned. I have seen little evidence offerring why Rough Skin YacheChomp isn't still broken or overcentralizing, just how it is comparatively LESS broken than its accuracy-reducing counterpart. The straw man arguments abound.

Think of the precedent this would set if Garchomp was unbanned and Sand Veil was removed in its place, simply because a majority of voters don't want to have to deal with Sand Veil. Does Snow Cloak - an ability no one really had any interest in discussing until now - fall under the microscope next? I heard someone say that it was a "fair price to pay" if they were banned if that meant Chomp could be freed, but isn't that position flawed at the core? That doesn't sound like a community interested in creating an environment supporting as many viable playstyles as possible, even if an ability is deemed by many as "uncompetitive." It seems a little more like activism in looking for a reason to free a popular Pokemon, at the "price" of a few uncompetitive, (read: unpopular) abilities.

Innocent until proven guilty. Not making needless bans is part of Smogon's policy.

[Eclypse]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Innocent until proven guilty. Not making needless bans is part of Smogon's policy.

But by that logic, doesn't that really make this a discussion about Sand Veil, with Garchomp just a popular point to rally behind? If it were any other Pokemon, the word to describe SV would be "frustrating," but certainly not "broken." Garchomp being made broken by it does not mean Sand Veil itself on all Pokemon is broken.

Edit: Think about Blaziken for a moment. Speed Boost was not banned because it is not broken. Blaziken was banned because in having access to Speed Boost, it became broken.

[ginganinja]

If it were any other Pokemon the word to describe SV would be "frustrating," but certainly not "broken."

Go read This Post. People are arguing that its not just Chomp, but also pokemon such as Gliscor.

[Eclypse]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Go read This Post. People are arguing that its not just Chomp, but also pokemon such as Gliscor.

I appreciate how concise and deliberately worded the argument was. Don't get me wrong; I think the Sand Veil discussion is an important one to have. I just want to ensure that the arguments presented are not straw man points essentially stating, "we banned the Pokemon last time because we could live without Blaziken and Excadrill, but this time around we should ban the ability because we want Garchomp back." To put it simply, Blaziken and Excadrill without their broken abilities would not have been banned. Chomp, as cool as he is, has to play by the same rules.

Accepting the premise of this post, the Sand Veil discussion should stand alone; Garchomp merely distracts from the point in the sense that it keeps limiting the argument back to it rather than the ability as a whole.

[Thorhammer]

You're right that we shouldn't contradict ourselves in our approach to the three. However, in this case, the approach is quite consistent. Garchomp's ability is considered broken (or at least undesired) in general, so the ability as a whole can be banned, but Blaziken's and Excadrill's abilities are not, so they cannot, forcing us to find a different solution.

[Eclypse]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Garchomp's ability is considered broken (or at least undesired) in general.

This is the statement that should be central to the debate. Some would agree that it is broken; others would say its effect ends at frustrating or haxy - akin to the exhaustingly aforementioned example of Jirachi. Paraflinchers certainly aren't the most fun to play against, but bans don't occur because we don't like a certain strategy. Just because battles have been turned around by the ability itself doesn't mean that it is inherently broken. If it were, then Serene Grace (which has turned many lost battles around for me and my opponents) would be banned as well.