Hail: More Than Anti-Metagame Idealism

[SpecsX]

Actually, many common Ice-types are neutral to Ice(Kyurem, Abomasnow). The best abuser hail gets is the mighty STALLREIN, but it's hard to set up for the casual player, especially with Tentacruels everwhere absorbing TSpikes.

[mailanbr]

Well I'll say since I haven't seen anyone else mention it. I see a lot of Hail teams run Heatran because it isn't x2 weak to SR, and that is can take all the Fire-type attacks directed towards the majority of Pokes on a team.

But one Pokemon that I have experimented with is Chandelure. Of course Chandy is x2 weak to SR, but slap a Choice Scarf on that thing, and it can even outspeed Tornadus-T, which I feel is a major threat to Hail teams. I can obviously take the Heat Wave and Superpower doesn't affect it. I'm not so sure about the Hurricane coming from Tornadus-T, but since Chandy outspeeds Tornadus-T, it can fire off a Fire Blast and OHKO it (assuming that Tornadus-T has taken SR damage). Any thoughts about Chandelure being used on a Hail team from you guys?

[bubbly]

Yeah I've used Chandelure a lot. It's a very solid member, basically; obviously it synergises nicely with Ice types, but even better, its Substitute set especially is really good at luring and killing Heatran and Tyranitar with HP Fighting / Ground.

[DEMo_Gorgon47]

Only problem with running Substitute sets on a Hail team is again, how quickly they are worn down. And Chandy suffers a lot from 4-moveslote Syndrome on a SubSet.
Cause you could do Sub+3 attacks, but with Sub and Leftovers neutralized (and a weakness to all 3 types of entry hazzards) it is very difficult to keep him around. Meanwhile, if you chose to run the semi-reliale Pain Split, you miss out on the useful coverage of Shadow Ball or HP Fight/Ground. All in all, I would think Scarf + A Good Spinner would prove to be a better combo than the Sub Set. But Chandy in it of itself is very good, as unlike Heatran it can take Fighting attacks.

[Ithilanor]

Yeah, I was messing around with sub chandelure on a hail team; with xatu to bounce hazards away, it was really nice. While the scarf set is nice, it'sa very different role - I preferred using chandy as a pivot with strong coverage, able to come in on a lot of threatening attacks and deal with problematic threats.

[BurningMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Complications

Personally I disagree with the top 1v1 weather starter statement. Any Ninetales roasts Abomasnow with whatever fire move it's carrying (No pun intended) while, when uninvested, T-Tat OHKOs with Stone Edge or Fire Blast on the mixed set, and is bulky enough to take a Wood Hammer.
Here are some calcs:
Max Atk Adamant Abomasnow using Wood Hammer vs. standard MixTar:
317-373 damage. Impossible to KO Mixtar in a 1v1.

Wood Hammer: 376-446 (93.06 - 110.39%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO


The on-site Mixed attacking Abomasnow uses Expert Belt so you got a 50% chance to OHKO 252/0 TTar without SR and if hail is up it is almost guranteed that TTar will die at the end of the turn.

[TheStarRapper]

I just have to say that I have seen a massive influx of Hail teams on the Beta Ladder, and am doing pretty well with one myself. I think that Abomasnow is a perfect partner for HO: providing residual damage to support sweepers like Lucario, while also stopping rain and sun threats that can overpower non-weather sweepers. Great thread!

[Danger Mouse]

Wow, Abomasnow + Hippowodon sounds like a fantastic duo to try. There are lots of great ideas here...glad to see hail getting some love!
And I agree that Tentacruel and Heatran are both great partners for hail. Tentacruel's toxic spikes also add even more residual damage, while Heatran can comfortably put up stealth rock as it forces a switch, so there are your hazards.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

Actually, many common Ice-types are neutral to Ice(Kyurem, Abomasnow, Weavile). The best abuser hail gets is the mighty STALLREIN, but it's hard to set up for the casual player, especially with Tentacruels everwhere absorbing TSpikes.

Actually Stallrein isn't that good of an abuser to be quite honest. It works, but usually only against inexperienced players. If your opponent is able to status you, the entire point of stall rein becomes null and void. Frankly, Walrein is dead weight on most teams, and it requires too much support to be a viable option.

[SpecsX]

I suppose you're right, but it is possible for an experienced player to lose with a poor move or two.

I've found Sigilyph to be decent with Hail, as hail damages more types than Sand does, meaning Skarmory or Forretress will lose leftie recovery. Combine that with a Burn, and they will lose health fast. Sigilyph can als switch in to Choice-locked Fighting moves, and burn Scizor or evn catch an opposing TTar on the switch.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

I suppose you're right, but it is possible for an experienced player to lose with a poor move or two.

I've found Sigilyph to be decent with Hail, as hail damages more types than Sand does, meaning Skarmory or Forretress will lose leftie recovery. Combine that with a Burn, and they will lose health fast. Sigilyph can als switch in to Choice-locked Fighting moves, and burn Scizor or evn catch an opposing TTar on the switch.

Sigilyph is a great pokemon to use on hail. It's able to sufficiently wall most fighting types that like to mess around with Aboma/Kyurem, and its cosmic power set is great to use lategame. I swapped out Reuniclus for Sigilyph on my hail team and haven't regretted it. The only thing is that it gives you that nasty extra flying type, which lets things like Terrakion have a grand time against it. Also problematic would be Specs Keldeo with Icy Wind.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat mailanbr

Well I'll say since I haven't seen anyone else mention it. I see a lot of Hail teams run Heatran because it isn't x2 weak to SR, and that is can take all the Fire-type attacks directed towards the majority of Pokes on a team.

Heatran's great - the only downside is that it shares a fighting weakness with Ice types, as does most steels. The ones that are not weak to fighting share a common fire weakness.
Infernape is a massive threat to hail teams because of this reason.

The biggest hurdle I find building Hail is the difficulty of slotting steel types in without compounding weaknesses. No steels mean checking dragons is going to be difficult.

[Danger Mouse]

Just make sure you have something that can compensate for those weaknesses and you're good to go. Infernape has all the bulk of a wet tissue so just capitalize on that.

[SpecsX]

Sometimes I feel Gamefreak has been trolling Hail since it's conception, as arguably the best defensive type in the game shares a few crucial weaknesses with Ice-Types.

Also, if you burn Terrakion on the switch with Sigilyph, you can take it on with a Terrakion check easily.

[DEMo_Gorgon47]

Minus a crit -_-"

Just learned that one of the biggest threats to Hail is CM Reuniclus. It can easily set up on my team. I had to switch HP Fire to Roar on my Latias to deal with it =/

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat Danger Mouse

Just make sure you have something that can compensate for those weaknesses and you're good to go. Infernape has all the bulk of a wet tissue so just capitalize on that.

Killing it isn't difficult, checking 'Nape is a bit trickier for Hail teams since 'Snow, Kyurem/Mamoswine or whatever Ice types can't check it (which is usually half the team).

Not to mention it can just U-Turn out.

[Complications]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

Actually, many common Ice-types are neutral to Ice(Kyurem, Abomasnow, Weavile). The best abuser hail gets is the mighty STALLREIN, but it's hard to set up for the casual player, especially with Tentacruels everwhere absorbing TSpikes.

Just saying that Weavile does actually resist Ice.

On a different tangent, I believe Jirachi provides a decent check to many common hail threats. Even if they sport neutral or super-effective attacks, Jirachi's useful bulk lets it sponge hits, especially from things like Kyurem. I'd imagine one of the best counters on a hail team to a par flinching Jirachi would be Scarfed Mamoswine? Also, I'm wondering, has anyone tried a subdisable Froslass? I'd imagine it does a good job of getting rid of Hail checks, seeing as it would work similarly to subdisable Gengar, but with Hail immunity, the boltbeam combo, and Snow Cloak to boot.

[jg1198]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Overall, rock is the worst defensive type in the game, not ice.

ummm sandstorm 1.5X sp.def? ring a bell? I don't know how anyone can even say this with spdef behemoth ttar laughing away at starmie, lati@s, and pretty much any special attacker not carrying focus blast or a mixed set with a super effective attack. I've had my ttar tank a FB from a gengar and crunch it, which is pretty amazing with that nasty 4X weakness (although i havent run calcs, so dont freak out if my opp was using some weird evs and i didnt know). Also with tyranitar and terrakion being the only OU rock types, (and terra shouldn't be taking hits anyways) ttar will set up sand for himself, shooting his spdef way up, so rain shouldnt be a huge problem for our OU rocks.

Pocket EDIT: Not all Rock-types possess Sandstream -.-

Jg1198 edit: Did I not clearly explain that of the two OU rock types, the one that has any business as a defensive role (ttar) does have sand stream?

[King Serperior]

I have used this set many time before:

Kyreum @ Leftovers
252HP/252Def/4Sp.Atk
- Hail
- Blizzard
- Roost
- Earth Power / Dragon Pulse

Now, the idea behind this set is Anti-weather. Its physically defensive because I want to survive as well as possible the physical attacks that it will face. Roost and Leftovers provide good healing. The offensive moves are simple: With Hail being provided, Blizzard gets 100acc. Dragon Pulse is for better coverage overall, but Earth Power is used to catch the steel types that come in with their pants down.

Granted, an almost uninvested Sp.Atk will not do as much, but Kyreum's base 130 offense and STAB Blizzards can put a dent in everything.

Note that I have not battled online in about 2-3 weeks, so this set may be FAR outdated.

[A Critical Hit]

Creating a good hail is something i struggle with. I am not saying it's impossible but other weather teams just seem to have more going for it. Still, i'd very much pay to see a successful Hail team than another tried and true rain team. It's too bad the former is a rarity and the latter much more common on PS.

[/B/utterfree]

I'd like to point out that I simply use Abomasnow for the sheer fun of it. It's a really good Pokemon that unskilled players miss out on. It counters/checks all of the other weather setters, can go mixed, and isn't afraid of many attacks some of its pals would cringe at on sight (such as Water/Electric attacks). Abomasnow makes a good pardner for anti-Rain teams, as it stops Hydration and non-SwiftSwim strategies in their tracks just by changing the weather.

Abomasnow has a good movepool and only really cares about Speed if it's being revenged by a Ninetales or Tyranitar, so running a Brave (Little Toaster) nature does more good than harm to him, in contrast to other Pokes who like going mixed but must sacrifice Defenses to do so. Abomasnow is like its compatriots Weavile and Mamoswine in that it gains Ice Shard and can use it more reliably than they can. It can also simply spam Blizzard, if for some reason it's running a Special-only set with Timid and max Speed EVs instead (it will need Hidden Power Ground to accomplish this in order to beat Ninetales and most Steels, but no matter, for Blizzard is mighty and Giga Drain helps with recovery).

Really, Abomasnow is good just as an anti-meta Poke. Not too many things benefit from Hail all that much, albeit Abomasnow doesn't rely entirely on Hail-benefitting pardners thanks to Magic Guard being more well-distributed.

I am using Sableye as a last slot to help offset my Fighting-type weaknesses. With Hail, hazards, status, and priority Recover, Sableye is likely to outstall most Fighting-types. Not to mention those running Toxic Orb to trigger Guts...

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

Sometimes I feel Gamefreak has been trolling Hail since it's conception, as arguably the best defensive type in the game shares a few crucial weaknesses with Ice-Types.

I agree. Stupid Gamefreak. How am I suppose to reliably check dragons on a hail team?

Originally Posted by Fat A Critical Hit

Creating a good hail is something i struggle with. I am not saying it's impossible but other weather teams just seem to have more going for it. Still, i'd very much pay to see a successful Hail team than another tried and true rain team. It's too bad the former is a rarity and the latter much more common on PS.

Rain is predominant for good reason, I suppose. I played a rain team for the first time today, and holy Arceus is it easy. Ferrothorn doesn't even need to switch out from fire attacks.

[Cuban Vader]

I've posted multiple times about how good Jynx is and that applies to hail, I'm on my iPod so I'll edit in the full ev spread and such later, but Lovely Kiss, Sub, Nasty Plot and blizzard wrecks in Hail. Set is simple, come in on something that can't hurt you, put the switch in asleep, then set up sub and np, if you outspeed them keep going till they wake up. With one np or two the lack o coverage doesn't matter once you clear out priority users. She also easily tears through rain teams, checking waters and enjoying the healing of dryskin

[NoUserName]

Something annoying with Hail teams is the move Scald, because Abomasnow checks/counters a lot of Water Types, but with burning on a switch it means that Abomasnow is a lot worse at using physical attacks or at SubSeeding and weakness to SR does not help.

About checking dragons, it isn't all lost, Skamory, Scizor, Heatran, Jirachi, Empoleon, Bronzong and Metagross lose a typical weakness of Steels that is shared with Ice(Scizor loses two), specially Heatran and Empoleon that are capable of taking both Dragon STAB and Fire Attacks(they both are weak to EQ but all is impossible to have everything at the same time)
Also Bronzong and Scizors are a great checks to Sand Teams and Empoleon to Rain Teams. Bronzong is even capable of counter Tornadus-T(Gyro Balls deals over 61%-74% with no attack investment) of course what also does Jirachi(and Metagross) and Heatran is typically the best check to Sun.

[FaceFaceFace]

Don't forget that Heatran and Empoleon share a fighting weakness with Ice; and that's pretty dangerous considering the prevalence of Mach Punch (hello Techniloom).

Hitmonlee once destroyed half of my team with High Jump Kick once my fighting resist got taken down. :(

Another thing that I've noticed is that Ice teams have some difficulty taking out steels - Ice types usually have trouble with them; and unless you're running Heatran, Metagross, Genesect, or maybe Bronzong, neither can your steel. Not to mention Metagross and Bronzie can't do much against the bug/steels. To compound that, most sweepers do not like steels. So you either have to devote a trapper (Magnezone, another steel hah) or base your sweeping around steels.

For now, my team errs on the latter and I let Kyurem take care of the rest.

On a totally unrelated note, Bronzong is the shiznit.