BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

As long as you have a decent Chlorophyll abuser - Venusaur, Victreebel, Sawsbuck, Lilligant, etc. - no Hippowdon is really going to want to switch in. They all hit it hard with super effective STAB, and all Hippowdon has in return is a relatively weak Ice Fang.

All those pokes are usually late game sweepers. Hippowdon can come into the most popular Chloro sweeprs (Venu, Victreebel and Sawsbuck), to remove their speed boost, and make them easy to handle. The plan is to just send in Hippo for one turn, and then immediately switch out. Usually if you stop them once, you have stopped them for good, as SR, ss damage and LO damage rack up fast, and they won't get another switch in opportunity if you play good.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

All those pokes are usually late game sweepers. Hippowdon can come into the most popular Chloro sweeprs (Venu, Victreebel and Sawsbuck), to remove their speed boost, and make them easy to handle. The plan is to just send in Hippo for one turn, and then immediately switch out. Usually if you stop them once, you have stopped them for good, as SR, ss damage and LO damage rack up fast, and they won't get another switch in opportunity if you play good.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Venusaur/Victreebel's Giga Drain is a 2HKO on any Hippowdon, and Sawsbuck's Horn Leech is a 2HKO on any Hippowdon. Sure, the Chlorophyll sweeper takes 16% damage from Life Orb + sandstorm, but that's probably not going to be enough to deter it from switching in later, whereas Hippowdon is forced out with the threat of losing your weather inducer. Sure, Hippo can't be trapped by Dugtrio very well, but it's hard to switch into any Chlorophyll sweeper, and even Ninetales at times, fearing Will-o-Wisp. There's no perfect Sand inducer against Sun; Tyranitar gets killed off by Dugtrio, Hippowdon is threatened by Sun's most common sweepers. The only surefire way for Sand to beat Sun is to use both Tyranitar and Hippowdon on the same team - Ttar can switch into Ninetales and Chloro sweepers, and having Hippo in the wings removes the fear of losing your weather to a well-timed Dugtrio switch.

Alternatively, you could use Dugtrio yourself...

[alexwolf]

I never said that there is a perfect Sand inducer against Sun. I just mentioned that Hippo is a very good check to them, from my experience, for reasons already explained. And it's not only 16% residual damage as you said.

First of all, you assume that the Chloro abuser will always use Giga Drain against the poke they force out, which is not the only common case. Sometimes they set-up, they use Sleep Powder, or they threaten out your steel/grass/dragon type with HP Fire / HP Ice / Weather Ball. So Hippo can many times come in losing much less than ~66%. Also if they try to hit Hippo after he comes in, then they will lose another 16% as you go to your Jirachi / Ferrothorn or whatever that can easily handle thos pokes in sand, so in total they will have lost 32% of their life. So coming in another time and setting up won't be as easy, especially if you pressure them a bit. And all those assuming you don't have SR on the field (yeah i know Xatu, blah blah, but guess what, Sand teams can use SR setters that Xatu actually doesn't want to switch into, such as Landorus-T, Landorus and Terrakion). Add SR and then the damage the Chloro sweepers will have taken after landing 2 attacks and switching into SR twice adds up to 56%, meaning that they will be left with 44% the second time they come in. Pretty sweat!

[Lavos Spawn]

You're right, I can't always assume that the Chlorophyll user will make a decent prediction, but I'm willing to bet that it'll be harder to take the risk of switching your standard Hippo into a LO Venusaur when you know Giga Drain could be incoming. Also, you really can't assume that you'll have rocks up against a Sun team, since the #1 priority of most Sun teams is keeping rocks off the field. I know Xatu doesn't beat every SR user, but it beats most of the common ones. Besides, if you're using Hippowdon, why would you not have rocks on it? :/

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Pretty sweat!

heh

[Scarfwynaut]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Besides, if you're using Hippowdon, why would you not have rocks on it?

I've used Hippowdon without rocks, having both whirlwind (not roar!) and ice fang together makes an amazing tank and shuffler, if you can get rock on something else, it is definitely something worth toying with.

[shrang]

You can use Whirlwind and Stealth Rock on Hippowdon now, since SR in now a move tutor in BW2.

[Danger Mouse]

what makes whirlwind better than roar? is it because of the odd soundproof poke?

[alkinesthetase]

i guess it's for mr mime, otherwise the difference is really really subtle... most dedicated BP teams should be running mime anyway though (for the threat of perish song) so it's not totally irrelevant. what if mime comes in without receiving a passed ingrain, i guess? you'd be able to phaze it with whirlwind but not roar. it's a very minor thing but sort of worth noting. sort of. *shrug*

[SpecsX]

Hey, if you have both phazing moves, use the one that will always work.

Are Spikes or Stealth Rock the more powerful hazard in today's meta?

[Jimbon]

It depends on the Pokemon that is switching in, both have their own merits. Stealth Rock hits everything, breaking potential Focus Sashes and Sturdy, while also being able to deal up to 50% on Pokemon 4x weak to Stealth Rock such as Volcarona. Spikes on the other hand can be stacked, and deal more damage depending on how many layers of Spikes you have up. The difference here is that Spikes is not affected by typings, so whatever type you are (bar flying) you will always take the same damage by Spikes. There are some situations where Pokemon avoid hazards altogether, in the case of Magic Guard or Pokemon with Levitate avoid Spikes. It's all completely Pokemon dependent as some Pokemon do not mind hazards while others are completely unviable as a result of hazards.

[Chimpakt]

It really depends on your team. Certain pokemon can utilize stealth rock support better because most of their switch ins are levitating. Obviously a pokemon like donphan would appreciate stealth rock more than something like Hydreigon.

But spikes is not widely distributed and only certain pokemon will be able to use it effectively. Stealth rock on the other hand can be used by a variety of pokemon and it effectively ALWAYS deals damage so it is generally better.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I personally thinks that Stealth Rock is better. In such fast-paced metagame, you don't have time to setup three layers of Spikes. Stealth Rock on other hand only wastes one turn, and affects ALL pokémon bar the obvious exception of Magic Guard users.

Stealth Rock is needed to break Focus Sashes, Sturdies and Multiscales, and get some handy KOs that you would need to waste another turn attacking to get. Spikes is also amazing as it can get even more KOs when combined with Stealth Rock, and is more useful against grounded threats if you manage to setup three layers. However, you rarely have time to get these three layers.

Spikes is easier to get when you are using a defensive Pokémon to do this. However, defensive Pokémon aren't suitable for offensive teams unless as supporters, and stall is uncommon.

In short: On most teams, Stealth Rock is essential, Spikes is optional and Toxic Spikes is awful.

[Lavos Spawn]

Stealth Rock is superior to Spikes in this metagame, and it's the first hazard that anybody ever thinks of putting on a team. Since rocks hit everything, whereas Spikes only hit grounded Pokemon, SR is more useful overall. With common threats nowadays including Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Dragonite, Stealth Rock is an asset for any team, whereas Spikes can be extremely underwhelming at times. Spikes are great as a secondary hazard, because they're stackable, but you should always have Stealth Rock on your team before considering adding Spikes or even Toxic Spikes. Speaking of TSpikes, why are some people saying it's awful? They're extremely effective if you're bent on winning the weather war, seeing as they hit every single weather starter out there, and Poison-types are becoming increasingly uncommon nowadays. The only two viable OU Poisons are Tentacruel (falling in usage due to Starmie's popularity) and Amoonguss (again, low usage). Combined with a spinblocker, such as Jellicent, TSpikes can do some serious work on most teams.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Stealth Rock is superior to Spikes in this metagame, and it's the first hazard that anybody ever thinks of putting on a team. Since rocks hit everything, whereas Spikes only hit grounded Pokemon, SR is more useful overall. With common threats nowadays including Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Dragonite, Stealth Rock is an asset for any team, whereas Spikes can be extremely underwhelming at times. Spikes are great as a secondary hazard, because they're stackable, but you should always have Stealth Rock on your team before considering adding Spikes or even Toxic Spikes. Speaking of TSpikes, why are some people saying it's awful? They're extremely effective if you're bent on winning the weather war, seeing as they hit every single weather starter out there, and Poison-types are becoming increasingly uncommon nowadays. The only two viable OU Poisons are Tentacruel (falling in usage due to Starmie's popularity) and Amoonguss (again, low usage). Combined with a spinblocker, such as Jellicent, TSpikes can do some serious work on most teams.

For most offensive teams, Toxic Spikes damage adds too slowy. There are many pokémon immune to them. Other than Flying-types and Levitators, grounded Steel-types also don't care about Toxic Spikes. Apart from trying to win weather wars, Toxic Spikes is useful against stall once you remove their grounded Poison-type. Otherwise, Toxic Spikes is rarely useful. Also, most sun teams use Venusaur as their Chlorophyll sweeper, and Venusaur is a Poison-type. Seeing as sun teams are common, I can't understand why Tentacruel and Amoongus would be the only two viable Poison-types in OU. There's also Nidoking, an uncommon but viable Pokémon in OU. And many common stat-boosters are immune to Toxic Spikes, such as Dragonite, Scizor, Jirachi, Reuniclus, etc.

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

I personally thinks that Stealth Rock is better. In such fast-paced metagame, you don't have time to setup three layers of Spikes. Stealth Rock on other hand only wastes one turn, and affects ALL pokémon bar the obvious exception of Magic Guard users.

Stealth Rock is needed to break Focus Sashes, Sturdies and Multiscales, and get some handy KOs that you would need to waste another turn attacking to get. Spikes is also amazing as it can get even more KOs when combined with Stealth Rock, and is more useful against grounded threats if you manage to setup three layers. However, you rarely have time to get these three layers.

Spikes is easier to get when you are using a defensive Pokémon to do this. However, defensive Pokémon aren't suitable for offensive teams unless as supporters, and stall is uncommon.

In short: On most teams, Stealth Rock is essential, Spikes is optional and Toxic Spikes is awful.

I find that spikes/stealth rock in tandem are fantastic, especially against genesect, who hates residual damage. Stealth rock can be used by a wide variety of things, so it's easy to slip on a team. Spikes is more difficult, but I find Ferrothorn to be a reliable spiker who can get fit on offensive and defensive teams alike. He's a fantastic supporter and hits pretty hard with that Gyro Ball and Power Whip. Deoxys-D is a good spiker, too, for offensive teams, since he can function as a suicide lead. Forretress isn't bad, either, since he can also spin.

Even offensive teams have to be wary of hazards and residual damage, and have to consider a spinner...

[superbadd]

Generic rain teams are so easy to use and win with.

Politoad/tornadus/tentacruel/mamoswine/filler/filler

That's what they all look like ^

I like volcarona in one of those filler slots cause genesect deserves some punishment. I find these teams to be the most powerful teams there are.

These are the staple teams of BW2. Funny how sand teams was the most common in BW1, now it's rain. Anyone think sun or hail might be next? (provided they may get a boost)

[Ames]

I actually think the Xatu/Gene/Dugtrio core sun teams are very popular and strong at the moment. Certainly doesn't seem to be a massive bias towards rain in my experience.

[superbadd]

I played against that very team with the rain team I just posted. I find dugtrio w/SR is excellent b/c it can trap something and set up rocks w/o worry of xatu coming in.
Mamoswine also rips it apart if given the chance. Tornadus however, is dead weight when facing that sun team. That sun core is strong but a little overrated.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

I played against that very team with the rain team I just posted. I find dugtrio w/SR is excellent b/c it can trap something and set up rocks w/o worry of xatu coming in. \
Mamoswine also rips it apart if given the chance. Tornadus however, is dead weight when facing that sun team. That sun core is strong but a little overrated.

Give him Rain Dance in the last slot, and then observe the destruction!

[Ames]

I tried the rain dance set and while it was hilarious those 2 times that I lost toed and was able to still pull out the win, the rest of the time it just seemed like a waste of a moveslot, especially with all the weatherless and rain teams going round.

[Scarfwynaut]

Toxic spikes are really terrible in this meta, a majority of teams have easily 3-5 steel, levitating, or otherwise immune to poison pokemon. The pokemon left over rarely even mind poison, and if you don't get 2 layers up in this face paced metagame, you only have the laughable normal poison. I don't even use it even if I have the slot, id rather use another move or even stealth rocks or spikes again, at least then it might get some use if I can't get them up.

[Ricky Horror]

IMO everything that can run Toxic spikes is too busy trying to fulfill another role, or a preferred role. Which like said above leaves no time to stack. Tentacruel and Forretress are usually more in need to pull off a spin, in Forretress case set up stealth rocks.

[SpecsX]

Spikes are really great in this meta actually, because of the damage they do to SR resionistors. Terrakion, Breloom, Keldeo, Conkeldurr, Jirachi, Lucario, and others are all hit by Spikes harder than Stealth Rock. At the same time, though, SR hits Dnite, Mence, Tornadus/Thundurus-T, and Levitators. I find that Spikes are most effective in conjunction with Stealth Rock. Also, 3 layers do the most damage, but 1-2 layers can work too if used with SR

[Ames]

As someone was saying not long ago - getting one layer of spikes up with rocks is excellent, get the rest up with the opponents spinner gone and you have probably already won.

[Ricky Horror]

It's obvious three layers of spikes is superior to 1-2, but keeping these layers is a challenge in such an offensive environment. The best spin-blocker is more effiecent in stalling natured teams, which are scarced. It seems everyone carries a rapid spinner for the hell of it, also to carry some of the most fierce Pokemon such as Dragonite, Volcarona, Therians and among a assorted few others. Toxic spikes are probably overall discouraged as they can be soaked up(by the few Poison left in OU).