BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Ghostbone]

Scarf Chandelure is a pretty good offensive spin blocker in my experience, obviously it can basically only switch into the rapid spin itself but it can take out donphan or starmie and weaken tentacruel a lot. Plus it has a lot of other uses like countering breloom and scizor.

[SpecsX]

I think Psychic OHKOs Tentacruel. Chandy beats Donphan, Starmie, Forretress, Tenta, I can't think of any other spinners. Does it OHKO Hitmontop?

[Ricky Horror]

Originally Posted by Fat Ghostbone

Scarf Chandelure is a pretty good offensive spin blocker in my experience, obviously it can basically only switch into the rapid spin itself but it can take out donphan or starmie and weaken tentacruel a lot. Plus it has a lot of other uses like countering breloom and scizor.

Generally, Chandy would make great offensive spin-blocker, but it takes 25% damage from stealth rock, limiting its entrance to block. It also lacks reliable recovery.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

I think Psychic OHKOs Tentacruel. Chandy beats Donphan, Starmie, Forretress, Tenta, I can't think of any other spinners. Does it OHKO Hitmontop?

252 SpAtk Chandelure (+SpAtk) Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Tentacruel: 54.95% - 64.84%, then it dies to Scald assuming Rain is up.

252 SpAtk Chandelure (+SpAtk) Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Hitmontop: 71.05% - 84.21%, then it dies to Stone Edge and/or doesn't even get to hit Hitmontop in the first place because it gets smashed by Sucker Punch.

252 SpAtk Chandelure (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Donphan: 91.67% - 108.07%, Donphan lives ~50% of the time (assuming Sturdy is already broken) and KOs back with Earthquake.

And sure, Scarf Chandy may beat Starmie 1v1, but first you're assuming that Starmie will spin instead of Surf/Hydro Pump on the obvious Chandelure switch.

Bottom line? Chandelure is not an ideal spinblocker.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

In my opinion, Chandelure is really good. The only thing that holds it back is it's nasty weakness to Stealth Rock... Wich it's a shame, because it could be one of the top spinblockers on OU. I hope that Shadow Tag Chandelure gets released in future, because that ability would make that SR weakness not matter when you can trap and kill many things. Even so, Rapid Spin would still be recommended, of course.

Also, a super-effective Psychic does as much damage as a neutral Fire Blast, and does less under sun. So, Psychic would only stand-up against Tentacruel.

[Jukain]

I'm really finding it weird that no one has mentioned the most common offensive spinblocker, Gengar. It walks all over Donphan, can disable Scald and proceed to demolish Tentacruel, laughs at Forretress, and even Starmie will lose if you decide to run a Choice Scarf on Gengar. Honestly for your Deoxys-D HO teams you should be using Gengar unless you want your hazards gone. Gengar is the best offensive spinblocker, at least until the advent of ST Chandelure (PLEASE GAMEFREAK!!!!!!!).

[Scarfwynaut]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

disable Scald and proceed to demolish Tentacruel

In what metagame do you play where tentacruel isn't in the rain, and tentacruel doesn't spam protect to quickly regain it's health. I ran tentacreul for months and never saw a Gengar break through it without a crit or spD drop.

[Ghostbone]

Idk, chandelure has that sexy 145 base special attack and STAB overheat/fire blast.

At least for sun teams I think chandelure works better as a spinblocker than gengar.

Also I don't see how gengar is spin blocking tentacruel, if anything tentacruel in rain is one of the few counters to gengar >.>

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

I'm really finding it weird that no one has mentioned the most common offensive spinblocker, Gengar. It walks all over Donphan, can disable Scald and proceed to demolish Tentacruel, laughs at Forretress, and even Starmie will lose if you decide to run a Choice Scarf on Gengar. Honestly for your Deoxys-D HO teams you should be using Gengar unless you want your hazards gone. Gengar is the best offensive spinblocker, at least until the advent of ST Chandelure (PLEASE GAMEFREAK!!!!!!!).

Only problem with Gengar's that it either beats all spinners and loses to Starmie, or runs a Choice Scarf and beats Starmie but then loses to almost everything else. Now would be a great time to look at usage stats:

| 10 | Starmie | 61777 | 11.484% |
| 12 | Forretress | 58532 | 10.880% |
| 21 | Tentacruel | 43339 | 8.056% |
| 38 | Donphan | 32641 | 6.068% |

Well, that doesn't help much. Starmie is the most common spinner, but not by much. Forretress is right up there along with Tentacruel, and Donphan lurks near the bottom of OU as it has always done. I would conclude that it's pretty much a toss-up; choose whatever Gengar your team likes best. Still, if you're only using Gengar to spinblock, you're honestly better off going with Jellicent, who beats every single OU spinner. And please, for all that is holy's sake, do not use Chandelure to spinblock. I think I've explained that one enough already.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

The thing is that, to Chandelure become a really great spinblocker, it needs it's DW Ability Shadow Tag being released. It facilitates it's work as a spinblocker since it can trap and kill the most common spinners. Chandelure would still have a hard time with Tentacruel, I think.

[Ghostbone]

Well, Jellicent does actually lose to thunder life orb starmie.

And again, while Chandelure can't switch in on STAB EQ/Surf (it can switch into surf in sun at least once), it OHKOs all the spinners besides tentacruel who it 2HKO's (and tentacruel can only 2HKO back... or 3HKO in sun)

[Scarfwynaut]

If your Starmie is holding a life orb, its basically killing itself, 2 or 3 rapid spins + hazard damage + other incoming damage makes a dead starmie.

[Ghostbone]

Except for the fact that starmie has recover
Seriously rapid spin/recover/surf/thunder starmie works really well in rain as a dedicated spinner.

[Chimpakt]

yea it works really well spinning away hazards against ferrothorn setting them up every turn /sarcasm.

imo sub toxic tentacruel is the best spinner. It can hold its own vs gengar, it beats jellicent 1v1 and those are the only real spin blockers in ou.

[kalamadude]

I run a full stall team with Jellicent as my blocker (up at about ~1850 on PS).

Forretress is lol, gets Taunted and then Will-O-Wisp'd. Volt Switch doesn't do more than 25-30% (I don't remember exactly).

Donphan gets WoW'd as well.

I haven't seen Cloyster spin in ages (but I do frequently see them try to Shell Smash against Jelli only to get WoW'd. Really? Even if WoW missed, Rock Blast isn't an OHKO so I'll just get it next turn and your "sweeper" is useless...).

The odd Hitmotop is similarly WoW'd.

Starmie can be scary if it's predicts the switch (that's why I go to Ttar to Pursuit it instead).

But Tentacruel is a gigantic asshole. SubToxic in the rain is nigh unbeatable, it outspeeds Jelli's Taunt so if it carries Toxic you're fucked. Thank god I have Amoonguss to immediately absorb any attempts to set up, but any time the words "The foe's Tentacruel used Toxic" show up, I groan. "The foe's Tentacruel used Substitute" is a million times worse.

[Porii Sames]

This is close to beating Tenta as a spinner on Rainstall, and is an amazing Spinner on every team if you don't do something stupid.

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SAtk / 4 SDef / 208 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Scald
- Reflect Type
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

RT saves you vs Ferro, CBTar, most regular Tars w/o Superpower, Scizor, some Ninetales, the list goes on. EVs are for Terrakion (you won't OHKO with Scald though) and Ape, Spins obviously and Scald is to get burns on Bulky Waters. Recover means that it flat out will not die and can spin for practically the entire game since you are immune to status, can use a fast Recover, AND now can take on some popular Spikers AND it's immune to most Pursuits bar Weavile and Scarftar and Scarfsciz (which, if you stay in vs. them, you have a chance to live too because Pursuit doesn't OHKO).

Use this set before anyone else because atm noone really prepares for it and it is absolutely fantastic.

[Deku La Situacion]

Well. I start a team ideally for stop Weathers starting with Tyranitar and Latias. This core is a dificult job actually for the sunny days.Obliously genesect, scizor, and other dragon-type pokemons own this core, but here come's the dificulty. Wich is the adecuate pokemon for cover this core, and guarantee the a continuation of the team in this metagame so offensive.
I wait a nice reply. Thanks

[alkinesthetase]

porii sames, that reflect type starmie is BALLSY. as for tentacruel, one of the best spinner cruel sets i have seen, albeit much more aggressive than the sub toxic variants, is one that alphatron posted somewhere. it was actually an acid spray cruel. the EVs i forget, but the moveset was rapid spin / acid spray / hydro pump / ice beam or giga drain. the choice between ice beam and giga drain is basically between beating dragons and bulky grasses, or bulky waters.

i think it's often worth it right now to let go of cruel's usual tspike slot to get a lot more moveslot room in there. subtoxic is a defensive way to make use of that slot, but acid spray sets can be a great way to use it offensively. even with minimal or no investment, an acid spray on the switch can make a lot of things suffer, especially if your hydro pump is backed by rain (although cruel already lures in steel types because of its tendency to abuse toxic, and running a poison-type attack does NOT help in the slightest). iirc alphatron's original spread could 2hko a keldeo with giga drain after spraying on the switch, taking into account that the keldeo might use CM along the way. normally keldeo would just start boosting up so you'd lose unless you were carrying toxic (even then you might be facing subcm), but with acid spray you can wipe those spdef boosts away faster than keldeo can accumulate them and swiftly force it out.

anyway i managed to find the original set here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...77#post4327377 it's quite cool if you're looking for an offensive cruel without having to go all-out on the EVs and throw away cruel's bulk, since acid spray really lets you hurt things and wards off any offensive mons who think they can use you as setup bait.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

porii sames, that reflect type starmie is BALLSY. as for tentacruel, one of the best spinner cruel sets i have seen, albeit much more aggressive than the sub toxic variants, is one that alphatron posted somewhere. it was actually an acid spray cruel. the EVs i forget, but the moveset was rapid spin / acid spray / hydro pump / ice beam or giga drain. the choice between ice beam and giga drain is basically between beating dragons and bulky grasses, or bulky waters.

i think it's often worth it right now to let go of cruel's usual tspike slot to get a lot more moveslot room in there. subtoxic is a defensive way to make use of that slot, but acid spray sets can be a great way to use it offensively. even with minimal or no investment, an acid spray on the switch can make a lot of things suffer, especially if your hydro pump is backed by rain (although cruel already lures in steel types because of its tendency to abuse toxic, and running a poison-type attack does NOT help in the slightest). iirc alphatron's original spread could 2hko a keldeo with giga drain after spraying on the switch, taking into account that the keldeo might use CM along the way. normally keldeo would just start boosting up so you'd lose unless you were carrying toxic (even then you might be facing subcm), but with acid spray you can wipe those spdef boosts away faster than keldeo can accumulate them and swiftly force it out.

anyway i managed to find the original set here http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/foru...d.php?t=112026 it's quite cool if you're looking for an offensive cruel without having to go all-out on the EVs and throw away cruel's bulk, since acid spray really lets you hurt things and wards off any offensive mons who think they can use you as setup bait.

Not trying to be a buzz kill torwards Alphatron, but why is it that Acid Spray is only just now becoming viable for Tentacruel when I was actually getting praises for the ideal a year and a half ago, as seen here.

My set is different from his, but I knew this worked back in Feb. 2011, and most people I told about it agreed with me.

[alkinesthetase]

my apologies then. i picked it up from being mentioned in that thread, and acid spray is the kind of move that's never gonna get spotlight feature on any pokemon, so i would imagine alphatron thought he was the first to stumble upon this idea as well. it's just a case of multiple people finding the same thing independently =P

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Porii Sames

This is close to beating Tenta as a spinner on Rainstall, and is an amazing Spinner on every team if you don't do something stupid.

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 44 SAtk / 4 SDef / 208 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Scald
- Reflect Type
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

RT saves you vs Ferro, CBTar, most regular Tars w/o Superpower, Scizor, some Ninetales, the list goes on. EVs are for Terrakion (you won't OHKO with Scald though) and Ape, Spins obviously and Scald is to get burns on Bulky Waters. Recover means that it flat out will not die and can spin for practically the entire game since you are immune to status, can use a fast Recover, AND now can take on some popular Spikers AND it's immune to most Pursuits bar Weavile and Scarftar and Scarfsciz (which, if you stay in vs. them, you have a chance to live too because Pursuit doesn't OHKO).

Use this set before anyone else because atm noone really prepares for it and it is absolutely fantastic.

Tried this on Showdown and it's fantastic. Absolutely OU material, no doubt. Reflect Type saves Starmie's ass against so many common switch-ins, the most important being Ferrothorn, but also Tyranitar and Scizor. Being able to take about 8% from Ferrothorn's Power Whip, then fish for burns with Scald is a really great thing to be able to do. In my opinion I'd bump the Speed EVs up to 216 Speed, which allows you to outspeed Latios/Latias/Gengar for a quick attack if you ever find yourself in that scenario. 8 EVs from HP to Speed doesn't really sacrifice much. Just a thought. I hope people don't catch onto this set, because I'm loving the surprise factor.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

my apologies then. i picked it up from being mentioned in that thread, and acid spray is the kind of move that's never gonna get spotlight feature on any pokemon, so i would imagine alphatron thought he was the first to stumble upon this idea as well. it's just a case of multiple people finding the same thing independently =P

No need to aplogize. Alpha's set isn't like mine outside of the use of Acid Spray. I am interested in testing his set out for myself sometime in the near future. My variant was meant as a possible attacking lead, or late game sweeper to deal with special walls.

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat Chimpakt

yea it works really well spinning away hazards against ferrothorn setting them up every turn /sarcasm.

imo sub toxic tentacruel is the best spinner. It can hold its own vs gengar, it beats jellicent 1v1 and those are the only real spin blockers in ou.

but it can't poison gengar and since it runs only one attacking move if gengar disables it tentacruel is basically just sitting there being useless.

[VaporeonIce]

Originally Posted by Fat Danger Mouse

but it can't poison gengar and since it runs only one attacking move if gengar disables it tentacruel is basically just sitting there being useless.

This is where the point about Protect comes in; since Gengar outspeeds Tentacruel, Gengar goes first, and Tentacruel uses Scald afterward. Then, on the next turn, Tentacruel uses Protect, which blocks Disable. If Gengar tries to use Disable again on the next turn, Protect will be disabled, not Scald.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat VaporeonIce

This is where the point about Protect comes in; since Gengar outspeeds Tentacruel, Gengar goes first, and Tentacruel uses Scald afterward. Then, on the next turn, Tentacruel uses Protect, which blocks Disable. If Gengar tries to use Disable again on the next turn, Protect will be disabled, not Scald.

Protect doesn't help you any, though. Think of it this way: if you run standard Protect Tentacruel, then you lose to Jellicent, whereas if you run SubToxic, you lose to SubDisable Gengar. Either way, there's a spinblocker you can't beat. I propose the middle ground, a Protect + Toxic Tentacruel that I actually use on my balanced rain team for Showdown's ladder. The suggested set is below:


Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Spd / 244 Def
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic

Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Mamoswine and Dragonite, Jolly Breloom, and other things of that nature. Give this set a shot if you're tired of getting hard walled by a certain spinblocker.