UU Stats: August 2012

[Forsety]

At a glance most notable from the stats this month is UU has a alarmingly high drop off in defensive and stall teams compared to OU which lends definitive support to some people expressing the month before how UU is heavily biased in favour of full offensive.


Some more in depth thoughts on the actual mons.

Specslure, I called it months ago and the stats have proved it. It's now the definitive primary set for Chand and has solidified his place at No.3. I suspect once more people start EV'ing it properly so that it actually takes advantage of it's underrated good defenses it'll continue to rise further. It is all kinds of cheap practically guaranteeing a kill since it basically has zero checks and only one true counter.

Arcanine, has returned to glory with the absence of sand and brings a vital defensive fire type which is practically non-existant in general and high powered sweeper with priority. Depending on how you want to use it of course. Kind of related as well is all fire types in the tier have seen a rise in usage in the tier.

It's a shame we don't have rank based stats because I'm almost sure Cofagrigus would be a lot higher. I have seen a large majority of top ranking players on the ladder packing a Cofa. Which basically tells me this is the same case as Krookodile, a deadly game winning mon which most players just won't or can't use. There is basically no point in using Mismagius in between Chandelure and Cofagrigus. Oh and to the retards who keep U-Turning into Cofagrigus you don't get any regenerator recovery and do more damage to yourself with LO than to Cofa, stop it.

Gothitelle is another case of Wobbuffet where it's stats don't tell the whole story. I have seen this thing render normally powerful defensive cores complete deadweight. Gligar's have to run U-Turn now less you want to be insta-swept, Qwilfish is completely unviable when at the start of B/W2 it was actually brilliant. Also from what I've seen there is a criminally large number of people who don't know how the hell to use Goth properly and switch it in inappropriately...

Nidoqueen joins Cofagrigus as being one of the most criminally underused mons in the whole of UU. A offensive SR setter, powerful enough to nuke the same mons Nidoking does but able to survive some strong hits and it is deceptively fast. Scrafty has basically become fairly ineffective in UU and is still in the 'new toy' period. Due to the rising re-resurgence of Togekiss's popularity along with Heracross, Mienshao taking strong footholds and most special attackers like Chand spitting in the face of it.

I don't understand the pointless bashing of Ambipom, I don't use it but even I can recognize it has it's uses, but I leave it at that. Xatu usage has fallen heavily this month I somewhat suspect by it rarely finding a chance to even get a setup in. Also fuck Mew. If I have to see that genetic freak in UU again I swear I'll punch a baby from dealing with it's master of everything shenanigans. Also beware of Meloetta when it shows, mark my words once people realize it's most effective set which doesn't seem to ever get mentioned it will sweep like hell.

[TPO3]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about Scrafty being used so little. Heracross is in the number one slot, and it just rapes Scrafty every single time, no matter what set either of these two are using. Hitmontop, Mienshao, Nidoking, Darmanitan, Crobat, Togekiss, and Sableye are all in the top 25. With that many counters that are not just in the tier, but all top 25, I wouldn't be using Scrafty very much. Especially since Crobat is on the rise as the anti-meta, I think if we took just the latter half of August's stats, it would be even higher than it is listed now. Yes, Scrafty is a threatening sweeper, I'm not going to deny it. However, Azelf, Pory-Z, and Sharpedo are all also threatening sweepers, and they see even less usage for the same reasons. And yet nobody has trouble understanding that.

On a side note, Togekiss is top 20 in usage. It's nice to see Togekiss finally getting some love, it has been very underrated for a long time by anybody not named FlareBlitz. And for the love of God, stop using Ambipom.

EDIT: i also don't believe Gothitelle had Shadow Tag for all of August. I could be wrong, but it wouldn't have seen any usage whatsoever until it got Shadow Tag, so if it only received Shadow Tag 1 or 2 weeks in, and word didn't spread until a few days later, that would explain why it's so low.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

We should put Ambipom in the next Research Week. Along with Lanturn and Mismagius. :3

Maybe Togekiss too.

Someone mentioned this, and I overlooked it initially, but Suicune's usage is rather low, even with Heracross taking first overall. I'm sure that Suicune is the tier's premier bulky Water-type. It takes hits from practically anything in the tier, and shuts down Heracross. Have people not clued in to how useful Crocune can be? Or is Blastoise's ability to spin hazards and Swampert's ability to lay Stealth Rock more important than tanking hits from the strongest attackers in the tier? All three are capable of phazing, so that can't be why.

[RT.]

I would hardly say Suicune shuts down Heracross. The only set that it can actually beat is the Choice Scarf set, but only on the first switch-in.

349 Atk vs 361 Def-

Megahorn: 126-148 (31.18 - 36.63%) -- 88.89% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So on the initial switch-in, Suicune takes 12% from SR, 32% (minimum) from Megahorn, and then recovers 6% from Leftovers, leaving it at 62%. We'll assume the Heracross user then switches to Shaymin or something else that can force Suicune out, leaving Suicune at 68%.

The next time Suicune switches in, it takes another 12% from SR, 32% from Megahorn or CC, and recovers 6%, leaving it at 30%. Guaranteed KO on the next turn. Switching Suicune in after Heracross kills something isn't smart either, since CC or Megahorn will 2HKO after the Moxie boost and all Suicune can do is pray for the Scald Burn.

The reason Suicune's usage is so low is because it has no reliable way to recover it's health. (RestTalk=not reliable) Obviously Swampert and Blastoise are in the same boat, but they have other things to offer teams, most notably SR and Rapid Spin, respectively. All Suicune can do is take hits until it's forced to Rest, then it's useless. Offensive CM might still have some use, but it's still slow as hell so I wouldn't count on it getting more than 1 kill per game.

[superbadd]

Meloetta will most likely be the most dangerous pokemon in uu, come next month. I can definitely see it as the blaziken of uu. Aria, with at least one boost, isn't walled by anything, and pirouette is difficult to revenge kill because of its speed. Relic song/CC/T-bolt/Psychic will be the set to beat. The fact that it can go mixed with base 128 offense is incredible, on top of having a wide array of support movepool means it isn't lacking in the defensive department either. Meloetta will rip uu apart, that's a given. Having virizion come to uu is nice, we're seriously lacking in grass types here, so it's good that we have it. It also makes a great defensive/offensive partner with slowbro. Tornadus should be fun to use, considering it got access to heat wave and super power, it seems like it would make a great sweeper. Then there's mew... Mew will receive psystike on septemper 6th so the CM set is looking to be amazing. Btw, everyone should use bulky arcanine, it walls so many things and is the best set, by far.

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

We should put Ambipom in the next Research Week. Along with Lanturn and Mismagius. :3

That's actually not a bad idea.

[Swamp-Rocket]

People use Mismagius? I don't understand...

[/B/utterfree]

| 1 | Heracross | 23333 | 20.186% | 18451 | 19.252% |
| 2 | Roserade | 21674 | 18.751% | 17711 | 18.480% |

These Pokes still rule UU with an iron fist. No surprise, honestly.

| 4 | Bronzong | 18975 | 16.416% | 17342 | 18.095% |

Superb! Bronzong being up on the stats usage shows how good a wall he still is, as well as a good Offensive Trick Room 'mon.

| 9 | Snorlax | 16061 | 13.895% | 13419 | 14.002% |

What is Snorlax doing at #9 when Chandelure, one of the many Pokemon it counters, is at #3 still?

Other than that, I am smiling at former Ubers like Snorlax making a big impact in UU as the flavor of the month changes in the tier.

| 13 | Mienshao | 14567 | 12.603% | 12345 | 12.881% |

Mienshao being used more than Hitmontop is disconcerning.

| 21 | Ambipom | 11151 | 9.647% | 9934 | 10.365% |
| 22 | Scrafty | 10984 | 9.503% | 8857 | 9.242% |
| 23 | Sableye | 10623 | 9.190% | 9429 | 9.839% |
| 24 | Umbreon | 10606 | 9.176% | 8690 | 9.067% |
| 25 | Azelf | 10580 | 9.153% | 9218 | 9.618% |
| 27 | Shaymin | 9548 | 8.260% | 7683 | 8.017% |

Ambipom is outclassed by Mienshao almost entirely. Mienshao has a better movepool, can do hit-and-run better thanks to Regenerator, and also can go mixed, which Ambipom can't boast.

And yet Ambipom is still being used more than Scrafty, Sableye, Umbreon, etc.

Well, I'd facepalm, but I guess I have more work to do on UU. Cofagrigus hasn't made his dynamic entrance to the tier, so expectedly I will probably add him to the list of "everything that counters Ambipom in UU" when he arrives.

| 28 | Claydol | 9309 | 8.054% | 7910 | 8.254% |

At least Claydol is a better Rapid Spinner than Hitmontop. *shrug*

| 33 | Machamp | 8515 | 7.367% | 7045 | 7.351% |

With Fighting-types being more and more popular, I guess Machamp's merit is still abound somewhere. I just can't find it because STAB No Guard Dynamicpunch is literally the only thing that Machamp has going for it. Even Hitmontop can at least Intimidate something, and there are bulkier and faster Fighting-types also being used much much more than Machamp.

| 39 | Weavile | 7641 | 6.611% | 6205 | 6.475% |

Another former Ubers who's looking to be pretty powerful in its own right. I'm glad it's not at risk of going to RU like it was a month ago. However, I'm more responsible for maintaining Froslass and Bisharp's usages than I am for Weavile's. I guess people are making inherently better teams now!

| 43 | Froslass | 6826 | 5.905% | 6194 | 6.463% |
| 50 | Houndoom | 5552 | 4.803% | 4461 | 4.655% |
| 51 | Bisharp | 4832 | 4.180% | 3999 | 4.173% |

I shall take responsibility for making sure all these guys stay in UU. Two of these at least reliably check/counter Chandelure, although there is a sea of counters and checks in this tier that Chandelure has.

| 52 | Cofagrigus | 4818 | 4.168% | 4026 | 4.201% |

Just a little more, and then you make UU slightly more balanced! Come on, you can do it!

[Swamp-Rocket]

| 52 | Cofagrigus | 4818 | 4.168% | 4026 | 4.201% |
| 53 | Cresselia | 3684 | 3.187% | 3017 | 3.148% |
| 54 | Sceptile | 2641 | 2.285% | 2096 | 2.187% |

Does anyone else find this extremely large gap annoying? So many neglected RU Pokemon having almost no chance...

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

| 52 | Cofagrigus | 4818 | 4.168% | 4026 | 4.201% |
| 53 | Cresselia | 3684 | 3.187% | 3017 | 3.148% |
| 54 | Sceptile | 2641 | 2.285% | 2096 | 2.187% |

Does anyone else find this extremely large gap annoying? So many neglected RU Pokemon having almost no chance...

A 1% gap between tiers isn't exactly all that bad if you think about it, especially when many players won't think outside of that tier to patch up their team. Also, UU and RU are nearly intertwined, with current RU and UU Pokemon on both sides of that divide.

[MrGatr]

I don't know if this counts as a simple question... But I heard that Virizion might be coming to UU, how would that affect the UU meta?

Also can someone confirm this or deny it officially please.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat MrGatr

I don't know if this counts as a simple question... But I heard that Virizion might be coming to UU, how would that affect the UU meta?

Also can someone confirm this or deny it officially please.

Well we won't know for sure until the September stats are released, but the current trend suggests yes we will get it. As for how it will affect UU, we can only theorize. It'll be nice to have more good grass types, there aren't really that many.

[hilarious]

Originally Posted by Fat Forsety

Specslure, I called it months ago and the stats have proved it. It's now the definitive primary set for Chand and has solidified his place at No.3. I suspect once more people start EV'ing it properly so that it actually takes advantage of it's underrated good defenses it'll continue to rise further. It is all kinds of cheap practically guaranteeing a kill since it basically has zero checks and only one true counter.

I agree with most of what you said but Scarf Chandelure is actually more common on the ladder still.

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

People use Mismagius? I don't understand...

It has a niche of using Heal Bell and being a spinblocker, and I seriously doubt Misdreavous would be better than her even for full stall. That is the only justification I could see for using it since Chandelure is way stronger, Cofagrigus is way um better defensively and offensively and Sableye is way better defensively. Of course Heal Bell is so rare on her that it doesn't even register on the move set statistics so I don't know whats going on with her.

@TPO3 ok those are all good points I didn't really consider and they do make sense except for the fact people aren't really using Mismagius with sets that abuse those niches according to the ladder stats - practically no Mismagius run Perish Song and over 60 percent of all Mismagius run purely offensive EVs. Offensively for a fast special attacker I much rather use Raikou or something like that.

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

| 43 | Froslass | 6826 | 5.905% | 6194 | 6.463% |
| 50 | Houndoom | 5552 | 4.803% | 4461 | 4.655% |
| 51 | Bisharp | 4832 | 4.180% | 3999 | 4.173% |

I shall take responsibility for making sure all these guys stay in UU. Two of these at least reliably check/counter Chandelure, although there is a sea of counters and checks in this tier that Chandelure has.

Enlighten me as to how you plan to make sure these stay UU apart from laddering for what would be truly an unhealthy amount of time. Oh Houndoom is subpar by the way so rank 50 seems just about right for it, sets up on just about nothing revenged by just about everything and not a particularly fast or strong choice user. Chandelure has a much sexier niche in killing everything but Snorlax and P2 and checking Heracross.

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

| 52 | Cofagrigus | 4818 | 4.168% | 4026 | 4.201% |
| 53 | Cresselia | 3684 | 3.187% | 3017 | 3.148% |
| 54 | Sceptile | 2641 | 2.285% | 2096 | 2.187% |

Does anyone else find this extremely large gap annoying? So many neglected RU Pokemon having almost no chance...

I forget who but someone said maybe a couple weeks back that a large cut off is a sign of a well defined tier, which I think is a good thing. I imagine the way PS! team builder is set up is affecting these stats more than most UU players actually, since the way it shows the UU list first when you go UU team building makes me feel a bias towards using only using UU Pokemon is created. No proof of this of course, but this along with the fact most people view http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/uu as opposed to http://www.smogon.com/bw/metagames/uu (according to my experience) makes me feel the lack of lower tiered Pokemon is not an indicator of the ladder's skill or anything like that, but just a subtle bias these factors exert on UU players. Also the Cofagrigus-Cresselia gap is (slightly) bigger than the Cresselia-Sceptile gap which seems to be the opposite of what you showed.

Originally Posted by Fat usage stats

| Raikou |
| Rash 19.596%
| Aura Sphere 36.797% |

Please...stop this and set Rash nature with Aura Sphere. Its the only legal nature. And stop Spikes+Sleep Powder Roserade too.

[TPO3]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

It has a niche of using Heal Bell and being a spinblocker, and I seriously doubt Misdreavous would be better than her even for full stall. That is the only justification I could see for using it since Chandelure is way stronger, Cofagrigus is way um better defensively and offensively and Sableye is way better defensively. Of course Heal Bell is so rare on her that it doesn't even register on the move set statistics so I don't know whats going on with her.

Mismagius has a few niches that the other ghosts don't bost. It's immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, while only taking normal damage from stealth rock. If you look at all the other ghosts in UU, all of them are weak to every form of hazard, Froslass and Chandelure are actually weak to Stealth Rock. Mismagius also has the highest speed of the ghosts save for Froslass, although with better defenses and typing. This would make Mismagius the most consistant Spinblocker with the ability to Taunt. Might not seem like much, but this would protect it from stuff like Toxic. Lastly, Mismagius can also set up Calm Mind pretty consistantly. Chandelure hypothetically could do this better, but since everybody's too busy using Specs, Scarf, and SubSplit Chandelure instead, Mismagius is used for this point. Mismagius also has Perish Song, which although it's rare, is a cool move to use on stall teams.

Now don't get my post wrong, I'm not saying Mismagius is the best ghost ever, or anything silly like that. I'm merely pointing out the fact that is has way more uses than people give it credit for, thus explaining why people still use it on the ladder. I would agree that 90% of the time, Chandelure, Sableye, and Cofagrigus would be better spinblockers. But Mismagius still has its few niches that make it useful.

[Chimera404]

I dunno about bashing Ambipom; it's actually not all that bad.

Mienshao is outsped and OHKO'd by base 115 sweepers, which INCLUDE Ambipom, as well as the most threatening portion of the metagame (Azelf, anyone?) which severely limit its ability to wreak havoc on the metagame. It also cannot touch ghosts, whereas Ambipom can utilize a Technician-boosted Pursuit or Payback to trap and kill its usual counters, as well as receiving Low Kick to put dents in steel-types. For Ambipiom, Acrobatics + Flying/Normal Gem is also great considering that it outspeeds and can revenge kill every single fighting type in the tier, as well as taking out non-scarf Heracross. It's definitely not the best in UU, but certainly not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

Here's an example. At the beginning of BW1, Machamp was THE fighting type to use, because while its only draw is STAB 100% Accuracy Dynamicpunch, it's really the only thing it needs, along with Stone Edge and Payback to make those pesky ghosts pay. Ambipom demolished it, plain and simple, which netted me on average a kill per game. When Deo-D became popular, and bulky waters flourished... then Ambipom sucked, plain and simple. Nevertheless, it's still a decent pokemon and its Fake Out is great for free damage.

Mismagius gets Nasty Plot and you don't need to run a slow team to support it, unlike Cofagrigus who only really works under OTR, giving it a very offensive niche. SubSplit is also decent on it because of base 110 speed. Sableye DOES shut it down but can only taunt and hit it with a tremendously weak Foul Play. It's also faster than Chandelure and has beter typing and ability (IMO) so better utility on occasion. Heal Bell is nice but really not the type of Pokemon it should be used on. I used it in conjunction with Ambipom and Togekiss, again at the beginning of BW1 UU, to break Bulky Offense, Hyper Offense, and Stall respectively.

[Silvershadow234]

Mienshao outspeeds the majority of the metagame-it loses out on Raikou, Azelf, Ampipom...and that's about it. Unlike Ambipom, Mienshao has that great fighting STAB and Ambipom's is walled by pretty much the whole metagame. Giving a free switch in to Cofagrigus and Rhyperior is not a good idea-and as SJCrew said, his two roles, scouting and momentum gainer are both pretty bad reasons for it to be on a team as they are both crap reasons really. Mienshao can do the momentum gainer much more easily with it's brilliant SubPass set, and scouting is unnecessary when you already have team preview.

And 252 LO Ambipom's Pursuit vs. OTR Cofagrigus: 32-38%
OTR Cofagrigus HP Fighting vs. 4 HP Ambipom: 65%-76%

So Cofagrigus, the best ghost type in the tier, demolishes Ambipom.

The Acrobat set is IMO outclassed by Sceptile who has unburden and can then revenge kill ScarfHeracross as well. Leaf Blade hits Rhyperior, and Earthquake hits Raikou. Sure, you're walled by Zapdos, but that's what team-mates are for. SD Acrobat Sceptile is beastly-go try it out over Ambipom.

[Pocket]

Ambipom should be using Payback - 40-47% to OTR Cofagrigus.

I do agree that Unburden Sceptile makes a far more effective Acrobatics user than Ambipom...

Does Sceptile really need Earthquake for Raikou? I am pretty sure +2 Leaf Blade hurts Raikou already. Raikou fails to kill off Sceptile with HP Ice, too. Rock Slide is probably better than Earthquake.

Yep: +2 Adamant Leaf Blade inflicts 95-112% to Raikou; an easy OHKO after SR
Raikou's HP Ice inflicts 56-67% to the same Sceptile.

[Chimera404]

Originally Posted by Fat Silvershadow234

Mienshao outspeeds the majority of the metagame-it loses out on Raikou, Azelf, Ampipom...and that's about it. Unlike Ambipom, Mienshao has that great fighting STAB and Ambipom's is walled by pretty much the whole metagame. Giving a free switch in to Cofagrigus and Rhyperior is not a good idea-and as SJCrew said, his two roles, scouting and momentum gainer are both pretty bad reasons for it to be on a team as they are both crap reasons really. Mienshao can do the momentum gainer much more easily with it's brilliant SubPass set, and scouting is unnecessary when you already have team preview.

And 252 LO Ambipom's Pursuit vs. OTR Cofagrigus: 32-38%
OTR Cofagrigus HP Fighting vs. 4 HP Ambipom: 65%-76%

So Cofagrigus, the best ghost type in the tier, demolishes Ambipom.

The Acrobat set is IMO outclassed by Sceptile who has unburden and can then revenge kill ScarfHeracross as well. Leaf Blade hits Rhyperior, and Earthquake hits Raikou. Sure, you're walled by Zapdos, but that's what team-mates are for. SD Acrobat Sceptile is beastly-go try it out over Ambipom.

LO Ambipom should never run Pursuit, that's what Payback is for. As the post above me said, it does 40-47% on the switch in if predicted correctly, which is a solid 3hko, 2hko with hazards up. Ambipom is always going to outspeed Cofagrigus, so Cofag loses to it 1 on 1, but only with prediction. Still better than Mienshao, whose best option is to U-turn out, but then you take LO Recoil without Regenerator recovery, and it still does less than 10% with lefties, meaning that you've essentially dealt more damage to yourself than your target. Scouting, curiously enough, is still kinda vital in this metagame because there's a huge difference between Scarf and LO Darmanitan, just as there's no comparison between offensive and defensive variants of Roserade. You can tell what the opponent's set and playstyle is by using Fake Out. If it's a swap to a ghost, you can then smash them with Payback or swap out to something appropriate. Ambipom's Fake Out is also surprisingly powerful, having a Base 90 power after STAB and Technician, something Mienshao just can't match up to.

About SubPass Mienshao, I haven't really seen it too often (Scarf, LO and Band are the most common I've seen). While it sounds great, I don't know if I want to lose 2 or more moveslots for something that really functions amazingly as a sweeper. It's still frail as hell, and is outsped by more things than you know. Weavile can come in and revenge kill, because unboosted Ice Punch still 1hkos after a turn of LO recoil iirc, and Crobat laughs at Mienshao. Quad Resist to Hi Jump Kick and U-Turn, plus it outspeeds it before HP Ice can hit? Solid counter. Then Durant, who can actually take an unboosted hit with its high defense, and hit straight back with a Hustle-boosted Iron Head. Then there's Cobalion, but it has no real right to be swapping into Mienshao unless its a predicted U-Turn out.

About AcroSceptile... It is truly beastly. Doesn't hit as hard as Hitmonlee, but doesn't need to sometimes, and after SD + Unburden, woe betide your opponent.

[Silvershadow234]

SubPass Mienshao is indeed very, very good. Stone Edge and HJK is all it needs-and a Shaymin for Gligar/Slowbro for example. Sub on the switch, then pass your Subto Shaymin, and now Shaymin most likely has a Substiute up, which is really deadly. Easily the best momentum gainer I've ever used. Try it out guys.

Also, on Sceptile, Earthquake hits Darmanitan and Arcanine and Victini hard as well-not just Raikou as well as grounded steels like Aggron however rare it is.

[Pocket]

After a SD, Sceptile's Rock Slide destroys Darmanitan, offensive Arcanine, and Victini with hazard support. Defensive Arcanine beats Sceptile regardless of Rock Slide or EQ.

Awesome RU & NU thread, btw!

[hilarious]

Ambipom should actually be using Shadow Claw generally since it is reserved solely for Ghosts - Chandelure is KO'd still, Sableye still walls you, Mismagius is still KO'd and it does more to Cofagrigus (Mummy!). Still I prefer using Low Kick over that for a coverage move and let the rest of my team deal with the ghosts.

Sub pass is good but the sub actually won't likely be intact since things switching into Mienshao (Nidoqueen, Cofag, Dusclops) can just break the sub as you pass.

[TPO3]

Payback is more reliable. It hits everything Psychic and Ghost in UU for more damge, and Shadow Claw doesn't even 2HKO without a crit anyways. Payback (Calculated from 75 base power) did 47% Max, which isn't even a 2HKO, Shadow Claw has less power, so it won't 2HKO either. And this is of course assuming that Cofag isn't a defensive Pain Split set with Will-o-Wisp. Ambipom loses to Cofagrigus regardless, so Payback should be used for a higher damage output against Chandelure, Mismagius, Xatu, Azelf, and Victini. As opposed to doing more damage to only Cofagrigus if you survive to hit it twice in a row, which doesn't happen if you're @Life Orb, since two U-turns or a Fake Out and a U-turn means you've already taken 20% damage.

...Not to mention if Cofagrigus is actually stupid enough to set up trick room against an Ambipom, Payback is going to temporarily have 100 power, as Ambipom will be moving second.

[hilarious]

Shadow claw OHKOs Chandelure and Missy with SR so your two points on those are pretty much completely invalid. Xatu will never switch in on Ambipom who always outspeeds Xatu so it will have 75--->150 power at most. Return will outdamage it by three base power points so that point is invalid as well (not to mention both will OHKO anyways if you manage to get a bit of prior damage on him). The same can be said for Azelf except it may outspeed you in which case Payback ensures the OHKO. However if it does outspeed you it will probably be OHKOing you or setting up SR so it has a Focus Sash. In any case Return will OHKO Azelf just as well with any prior damage like SR. So that point is invalid too. Victini I guess might switch in on Ambipom but since its SR weak its unlikely to and generally you are going to be switching in your Normal resist not Victini. However again with SR damage payback is not even a sure OHKO with 100-->200 base power so that point is pretty invalid.

I don't understand this why you can't use Shadow Claw twice. Just predict the very obvious switch in? What does losing 20% of your health have to do with anything? Also the critical hit ratio might save you in a pinch against a healthy Cofagrigus.

[Pocket]

Hm, that's very intriguing, hilarious :d. However, Chandelure has a chance to survive a Shadow Claw after SR, while Payback guarantees the kill after SR. So I guess it depends on whether Ambipom wants to be better armed against Chandelure or Cofagrigus.

[TPO3]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

Shadow claw OHKOs Chandelure and Missy with SR so your two points on those are pretty much completely invalid. Xatu will never switch in on Ambipom who always outspeeds Xatu so it will have 75--->150 power at most. Return will outdamage it by three base power points so that point is invalid as well (not to mention both will OHKO anyways if you manage to get a bit of prior damage on him). The same can be said for Azelf except it may outspeed you in which case Payback ensures the OHKO. However if it does outspeed you it will probably be OHKOing you or setting up SR so it has a Focus Sash. In any case Return will OHKO Azelf just as well with any prior damage like SR. So that point is invalid too. Victini I guess might switch in on Ambipom but since its SR weak its unlikely to and generally you are going to be switching in your Normal resist not Victini. However again with SR damage payback is not even a sure OHKO with 100-->200 base power so that point is pretty invalid.

I don't understand this why you can't use Shadow Claw twice. Just predict the very obvious switch in? What does losing 20% of your health have to do with anything? Also the critical hit ratio might save you in a pinch against a healthy Cofagrigus.

The 20% matters because it means after you hit Cofag once, it will probably OHKO you with HP Fighting before you get a chance to do anything back.