CAP 4 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[MCBarrett]

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

Base power is not an indication of overall power. It's just an indication of how the mon might use coverage moves. High base power can be compensated for in base stats.

That's true, I think a better way I could've said it is does it have too many moves that aren't risky rather than focusing on moves that are risky. Like dark types have sucker punch which is risky but has many other powerful high accuracy attacks that it could use

[ShinyDreamer]

For the sake of whatever poor soul is counting votes, I always choose no more than three picks when there are a lot of choices. These are my top three (in no particular order)

Bug/Dragon
Bug/Psychic
Electric/Psychic

[srk1214]

Bug/dragon = risk because SR weaknes?! I'm sorry. That's the least persuasive argument ever. Look at salamence or dragonite. No flying stab usage on menace. Very little on Dragonite. Lets not kid ourselves. There is no good reason to even run Bug Buzz over Dragon Pulse, so CAP4 would have to be physical so I guess U-Turn would be used. Bug/Dragon just makes no sense to me. Not risky really as much as redundancy for redundancy's sake.

[JamesSonofBaboonzo]

I agree with srk1214 about Bug/Dragon. The only major downside defencivly is that it has weakness to SR, which doesn't make Dragonite or Salamance much of a big risk. I think Dragon's neutral covrage is just too good for something ment to be somewhat risky. I think that Grass/Psychic is much better, as it doesn't have fantastic STAB covrage, and it is a gigantic mixed bag defincively with 6 resitances and weaknesses, (not counting poison).

[jc104]

OK I haven't had time to read all of this thread properly, so apologies if this stuff has already been said.

For me, Fire is absolutely the number one typing for this CAP. It brings lots of weaknesses and resistances, some risky moves (flare blitz, overheat, v-create, eruption, inferno), is strong offensively but resisted by large portion of OU and neutered by rain, and is weak to residual damage.

So having decided fire was best, I had a bit of a play with this thing. To me it seems like Fire/Ghost is completely ideal - in fact the only problem with it really is that we have Chandelure already, an excellent risky pokemon. It has a remarkable 4 types neutral to it, the lowest I could find without using Steel as a typing (Steel being crappy offensively). Not only that, but it offers up weakness to Pursuit and Sucker Punch, and a resistance to U-turn, which I actually think adds somewhat to the risk since it helps to prevent your opponent from playing safe themselves. Ghost is also a strong offensive type on the special side, but is rather lacking on the physical side due to a lack of good moves (this is the only reason really). It's definitely not spammable either.

Second to that I'd say Fire/Psychic or Fire/Dark as these also offer a good number of weaknesses and resistances, and a pursuit weakness in the case of the former. Dark allows the use of moves such as Sucker Punch and Pursuit.

@ Birkal mainly: I don't understand why immunities are bad. Are we not trying to exaggerate the effects of risk here? Switching in on a resistance is still "safe" if you know it's coming and your pokemon is healthy. However, if you have an immunity, you threaten to switch in at any point in the match merely by taking a risk. Immunities are better than resistances here. Neutralities, though, are the main problem, which is why I selected the typing I did. An imbalance in the numbers of weaknesses and resistances can be addressed through the use of defensive stats, but there's no good way to deal with neutralities.

[nyttyn]

I'm still personally a fan of Fire/Psychic, since it carries a SR weakness, making it vulnerable to the ubiquitious stealth rock, as well as having a few significant weaknesses, but at the same time can smack around a huge level of the current metagame with highly balling double stabs. In fact, Psychic/Fire can hit everything for at LEAST neutral, including the bane of psychic types - steels.

It has five distinct weaknesses, and five resistances, so it both has oppertunities to come in as well as things that threaten it. In addition, it'd still have one huge risk - Heatran completely cold-stone cold walls the STAB combo. Plus there's the chance of being Pursuit trapped by, say, Tyranitar, who is also a huge threat.

[Birkal*]

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

Bug/dragon = risk because SR weaknes?! I'm sorry. That's the least persuasive argument ever. Look at salamence or dragonite. No flying stab usage on menace. Very little on Dragonite. Lets not kid ourselves. There is no good reason to even run Bug Buzz over Dragon Pulse, so CAP4 would have to be physical so I guess U-Turn would be used. Bug/Dragon just makes no sense to me. Not risky really as much as redundancy for redundancy's sake.

Let me make a list of all the things risky about using a Bug/Dragon Pokemon in OU.

• Stealth Rock weakness allows minimal switch-ins. If you're using this Pokemon, you're on a timer. You only get so many switch-ins before you're weak enough to be picked off wit priority. This typing easily covers the risk of whether to switch in or not.
  
• Main STABs are incredibly risky. As I've described before, Outrage and Draco Meteor are risky moves that embody high risk/high reward to a tee. The former leaves you open to be revenged with the latter gives the opponent a free turn if you mispredict the switch. You also have to remember that Megahorn could be considered in the mix, which could definitely see usage over Outrage thanks to its great power. But even that has a risk element in terms of accuracy.
  
• Supporting moves are also risky. With Bug-type, you could potentially get Quiver Dance and sporing moves. The former is risky because you take the chance of being phazed out (more hazards damage) AND you've given the opponent a turn to send out a viable counter. Sporing moves have a risk of accuracy if you're going to rely on them. You also have to remember that not all Bug-types learn U-turn, so it might not be able to rely on switching out with ease.
  
• You are assuming we give CAP4 every Bug-type and Dragon-type move that exists. This simply wouldn't be the case. We could easily forgo Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, U-turn, and other moves if we saw fit. We should not limit ourselves by the "negative" aspects of a type's normal movepool. We should pick the typing that fits best.
  
• You face being outclassed by other OU Dragon-types. This is a risk in and of itself when it comes to teambuilding. When you choose CAP4, you're basically choosing a Dragon-type that has the greatest weakness to hazards, a non-optimal secondary typing, and most likely a Pokemon that has worse stats than other dragons.

I hope that list helps clarify some things. The risk is certainly there. I think the biggest challenge we'd have would be to construct CAP4 to be a Pokemon with high reward. You're already risking so much by using it, so giving some good reward for using it would certainly fulfill the concept.

Originally Posted by Fat Asylum_Rhapsody

Here's my beef with Dragon. Yes, it has some "risky" moves that fit the concept. But, and this is a big but, these moves are ones that have already been explored thoroughly by the OU metagame. We already understand the risks and rewards associated with those moves and with using that type in that way. Going Dragon isn't teaching us anything that we don't already know. Or at least that's how it seems to me. Like I said, it's perfectly possible I'm just missing something, but I'd just please like for somebody to explain to me what that is. I just don't see how we'll learn something here just by perfecting exactly what we already know works and how.

Let me tell you what you're missing: a Bug/Dragon doesn't exist in OU. It's as simple as that. We've never explored what a Dragon with Quiver Dance might look like. Or a Dragon with sporing support moves. Or a Dragon that is SR weak AND susceptible to Spikes. The movepool, stats, and abilities will all be different. To say that we wouldn't learn anything new by creating a new Dragon-type is ignorant, to put it bluntly. Look at Cyclohm, we managed to create a Pokemon that completely shattered previous notions about Dragon-types with its bulk. CAP does incredible things; to say that it doesn't is a questionable proposition.

For a moment, let's think of risk and reward here on a more meta level, not in terms of the typing alone but in terms of the CAP process itself. If we go with Dragon, that's a very low-risk option to take in terms of this concept, and that means that the reward for the project is going to be lower in that we won't learn as much. In the spirit of the concept, I'd much rather we pick a typing that's riskier for the process so that we have the opportunity for greater reward, to learn more rather than just further solidify what we already know.

How is Bug/Dragon a low risk? You're weak to four very common attacking types. Depending on stats, you could be very weak to being revenge killed. In that case, both of its powerful Dragon-type STABs leave it as a sitting duck. I really don't think people are thinking outside the box enough with CAP4. They look at Dragonite, one of the safest Pokemon in OU, and assume that CAP4 will also be safe. Who says that we give CAP4 great bulk, usable speed, Multiscale, and a fantastic movepool? These are all just assumed ideas because of past experiences with currently existing Dragon-types. I implore you to tear down those preconceived notions and look at how perfect this typing is for us.

At the end of the day, Bug/Dragon provides risk AND reward. That is something I, quite frankly, don't see in Bug/Psychic. What I want to hear from that group is why I'd be tempted to use Bug/Psychic in the first place. Psychic isn't a great typing to have offensively or defensively; look at Cresselia. It's base stats are incredible, yet it is severely neglected in OU, largely in part of its poor typing. I certainly see the risk of using a Bug/Psychic type, I just don't see the reward. As an Overused battler, I am not sure I could be convinced to use such a Pokemon unless it was given some incredible abilities, a vast movepool, and rocking stats. And let's be honest: should we really have to bend over backwards to make a less-than-optimal typing work? If we can pick a typing that already has a large amount of risk and reward, then we don't have to make an obscene movepool to make CAP4 work. Bug/Psychic doesn't have that reward, so I fear we might go far overboard in trying to make it a rewarding concept, which may completely ruin the process a la Krillowatt. Please consider this before voting.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

Bug/dragon = risk because SR weakness?! I'm sorry. That's the least persuasive argument ever. Look at salamence or dragonite. No flying stab usage on mence. Very little on Dragonite. Let's not kid ourselves. There is no good reason to even run Bug Buzz over Dragon Pulse, so CAP4 would have to be physical so I guess U-Turn would be used. Bug/Dragon just makes no sense to me. Not risky really as much as redundancy for redundancy's sake.

Salamence has no decent Flying-type STAB moves and Dragonite doesn't have any that can be used effectively outside of rain. Furthermore, both are 600 BST leviathans and as such can use Dragon-type STAB alone if they want to.

Originally Posted by Fat Asylum_Rhapsody

For a moment, let's think of risk and reward here on a more meta level, not in terms of the typing alone but in terms of the CAP process itself. If we go with Dragon, that's a very low-risk option to take in terms of this concept, and that means that the reward for the project is going to be lower in that we won't learn as much. In the spirit of the concept, I'd much rather we pick a typing that's riskier for the process so that we have the opportunity for greater reward, to learn more rather than just further solidify what we already know.

To be honest I feel that Dragon is easily the riskiest option for the process, which is part of the reason why I am willing to give it so much leniency against what I had said prior to going into this stage of the process. You must remember that a Bug/Dragon Pokemon is more susceptible to passive damage than any other Dragon-type in the game bar Kyurem - so in terms of Dragon-spam teams, why on earth would you use this hypothetical CAP4 over, say, Haxorus, Latios, Salamence, Dragonite, Hydreigon, hell even Kyurem (who has Roost, at least), especially as we are likely to be working with a lower BST than the above have been blessed with. To follow on from that question, how can we make such a Pokemon both Risky to use and, at the same time, not outclassed by its far more noteworthy, pre-existing brethren? I feel that the greatest challenge presented by any of the options on ours plates at the moment are concentrated here, particularly because if we do not play our cards right, there is a very real chance of failure.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

We do want CAP4 to be risky, but we also want it to be risky within reason. I say this because there are a multitude of risky Pokemon that exist which never see the light of OU. The most common reason for it is that they are too risky, and the elements that contribute to it are ones that safer Pokemon in OU avoid. I particularly liked Electric/Psychic because it was vulnerable to all hazards without being weak to SR. SR weakness is a massive mitigating factor in use, and while I think a Pokemon vulnerable to hazard stacking is a priority, I don't think the SR weakness would be beneficial.

The thing I don't tend to like about the Bug options (except Bug/Ground), and it shares some element of this with Electric/Fire, is that one type resists both STABs (in Elec/Fire's case, Dragon.) Having Steel types resist your attacks is one of the reason Steel Pokemon infest the tier, along with Fighting. Remember that to generate a win condition, it must also be risky for an opponent to switch in. Bug/Psychic lacks the kind of high-power moves to make that effective, seeing as major Steel Physical and Special walls can contain or curtail its effectiveness. To be sure, Elec/Psychic has its own problems with several of the Dragons in OU (Latis and Hydreigon specifically) as well as Ferrothorn, but it is otherwise well spoken for, and while Fighting coverage would take care of some troublesome Steels, Ice Coverage can handle those Dragons while enabling BoltBeam coverage, so it's quite versatile.

I'm not sure why you think that Bug/Psychic could not generate risk in 3 moves when it can indeed form an unresisted combination in Bug/Psychic/Fighting (or even Bug/Psychic/Electric, actually), not to mention the fact that Bug hits the two most noteworthy specially defensive Steel-types, Jirachi and Ferrothorn, for neutral damage (Heatran is also perhaps noteworthy, but I see it as more risky for our CAP as a potential revenge killer, which is another kettle of fish altogether). In any case, I don't see it as any more problematic in terms of generating risk than your preferred typing of Electric/Psychic.

EDIT: Birkal you ruddy ninja

Anyway there's about an hour left on this thread so I'll just put the slate up for the sake of those of you who feel like complaining.

EDIT2: Actually scratch that whole thing. I'll give you the slate when the voting thread comes up.

EDIT3: FINE

BUG/PSYCHIC
BUG/DRAGON
BUG/GROUND
ELECTRIC/PSYCHIC
FIRE/PSYCHIC
FIRE/ELECTRIC
GRASS/FLYING

Subject to change.

[pekka1995]

So now it's time to get some of my thoughts on this project onto here.
I have been voting for a bug type since we started discussing CAP4 and I do feel like it's the way to go. I mean if we look at the currant bug situation in OU we would see that it's rather underwhelming with the only pokes that I could think of being:
Forretress. Wich is really only used for its steel typing, great stat distibution and its huge support movepool
Scizor. This guy is one that actually abuses the bug type but once again it mostly relies on its second typing to take hits and dish out damage (allthough the stab U-turn is extremely important as for scizor too)
Genesect. Sure he might be new but he has definetly made an impact on the metagame in the short time he has been around. He once again like scizor relies on his steel typing to be able to switch in but once he's in he is one of the only bug types that really abuses its stab bug type attacks. (mainly bug buzz or U-turn)
Volcarona. This is when the intersting things start to come around though. As you all probably know volcarona is a fire/bug type wich in my eyes is very hard to fit into a team and if it wouln't have been for what other tools volcarona happened to receive I don't think many people would even consider him for an OU team. I do feel like Volcarona is an excellent example of risk vs reward since with just one or maybe 2 quiver dances up you are set to sweep a majority of the OU metagame, but getting it in with its quadruple weakness to stealth rocks and a big amount of deadly weaknesses it isn't the easiest thing to accomplish.

So why is it that bug types aren't used more heavily in OU?
well to this question I don't really have any answears but I do have some ideas why it might be.
first of all there are alot of bad bug types in the game, thats just how it is (cause for some reason gamefreak doesn't like those cute things...)
The other reason which I'm gonna stick with as the most appropriate for this situation is that it's a huge risk to run bug types and usually the risk outweights the reward. For example look at Yanmega. It has a good movepool, excellent stats and TWO amazing abailities to go with it. But then we have the fact thats it quadruple week to rocks and has some common weaknesses which would give it a hard time switching in in the OU tier.
This being said I feel like bug types are a very risky type allthough people might argue with me and bring up the fact that there aren't that many risky bug type moves but why does the moves have to be risky when we infact has a very risky type that has to be played perfectly to give you the reward that you are using it for.
And for my final vote for what seondary typing I would like CAP4 to have I would probably have to go with either bug/ground or bug/psychic both which would be interesting to see in our current metagame and I feel like they both would work in it.
(I am a bit worried though aboot how useful the psychic type would be on the bug/psychic)
Also I know that this is not the right place to suggest this but I feel that if we go with a bugtype we should probably go with a physical set since it then gets the stab megahorn to work with. (which in itself is risky with its "low" accuracy)
Anyway hope that this helped you guys and that at least some of you agree with me that bug type would be a nice typing for CAP4 thx.

Originally Posted by Fat Birkal

To say that we wouldn't learn anything new by creating a new Dragon-type is ignorant, to put it bluntly.

Maybe it is, but I'm still not convinced that for this particular concept the Dragon type and its relevant "risky" moves are a good selection simply because we already have numerous examples of how to makes those work, and that's why I see it as low risk. I think that it would be much more rewarding as a learning experience for us to try to figure out how to make something new work, and that's what I see in a lot of these other suggestions that I just don't see in Dragon. It's not that I don't see how perfect Dragon is for the concept; it's that I think it's too perfect because it's practically already been perfected.
But it's nearing the end of the discussion thread, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and let the voting take its course.

[bugmaniacbob]

Sorry for the wait, had to take tea.

Final Slate:

BUG/PSYCHIC
BUG/DRAGON
ELECTRIC/PSYCHIC
GRASS/FLYING

Expect a poll up shortly.