np: Intro to Ubers Testing: It's the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)

[Pocket]

Breloom is a mediocre pokemon in Ubers - too slow, fragile, and its Mach Punch lacks the power to break most Uber Pokemon not named Darkrai, Terrakion, Dialga, Kyurem-B/W, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Kabutops, and Arceus-Ste/Rock/Dark (okay quite a list here, but handful of these KOs wont be attained without attack boosts). Granted Sleep Clause may give Breloom *SOME* justification to use - but just like how stacking up on OHKO moves haven't seen much effectiveness (as explained by syrim and Poppy), stacking up on Sleep Inducers doesn't seem like a sound strategy, either. The major abuser of Sleep Clause is Darkrai. I guess, syrim is right that there will be lots of 50/50s, but I find them more strategic than say clicking an OHKO move and pray for a lucky break. Still, even OHKO clause warrants a proper test to truly evaluate whether its risks balances out the enormous reward.

[inanimate blob]

I love Ubers, and actually would love to see it have a massive overhaul, since it's been a bit stale lately.

Moody? That would be interesting, and definitely embarrassing to get swept by an Octillery. Same goes for Evasion Clause. But that's one thing - would we see a rise in usage of no miss moves? Aura Sphere would be a definite, but loves like Shadow Punch and Shock Wave that live in the depths of the NU Tier as "coverage" would possibly see a teensy bit of usage, which in those moves' case would be incredible.

Species Clause? Just the sheer ridiculousness of it would be so fun. Sometimes I have trouble taking down just one Specs/Scarf Kyogre or Extremekiller Arceus, but a team of six? Dear God. I would absolutely love that. And yeah, we'd probably see teams like 3 Black Kyurem / 3 White Kyurem, but geez, I'd love to see counters to that. The possibilities are endless.

I laughed when I saw the 0HKO Clause. That'll be fun, seeing people trying to get Lock On boosts, or even better (and my personal favorite), maybe even trying to Skill Swap their way to victory with No Guard.

The main question is: would the "broken" clauses cancel each other out? Could we see a hyper-offense team of Deoxys-A or Kyurem or Kyogre struggling to take down an Evasion team of Blissey or Giratina, or even a Lock-On Smeargle or Articuno team taking on a mixed defense Moody stall team? The possibilities could be endless. This is definitely a tier that everyone would want to play, without having to go scrounge around for battlers. The only other tier even remotely similar to this is Hackmons, and even then people are intimidated by the huge complexity of everything (myself included).

All in all, this would be a tier like Pokèmon Battle Revolution with 5th gen Pokèmon - and then some. You'd see some actual strategies and good battlers for once.

Now, I know I'm repeating stuff others said, but this is one of the first times I want to actively be a part of Smogon tier deciding / testing. It's always seemed like the gods picked, and I just got to sit back and watch.

[Iceydude168]

tbh I see the clauses fine as they are - in fact, I'd even support Freeze Clause coming back. I want this game to be as much of a game of skill and as little a roll-the-dice luckbag as it can be. I definitely do not support OHKO clause removal. I do not want to be forced to run Sturdy or risk losing my entire team to 6 Sheer Colds hitting in a row. I do not want to run Sturdy period.

As much as I want to eliminate luckbag factors such as OHKO moves, I actually think Evasion is perfectly fine - Zekrom got Haze from an event, and Arceus has run Perish Song for all of gen 4 and gen 5. Moody is in the same bag as Evasion - run Perish Song and you have almost 100% insurance against Smeargle (bar stupid folks running Mr. Mime full Baton Pass in Ubers).

I really doubt we'll get down to discussing Sleep Clause, and I seriously doubt that removal of Sleep Clause will get us anywhere - Pokemon with Magic Mirror are weak to Dark (Darkrai is Ubers' primary sleep abuser), Pokemon with Insomnia are either weak to Dark or utterly useless, and Pokemon with Vital Spirit are Primeape. Sleep Talk is stupid - again bringing us back to the "I'd rather play smart than roll the dice and hope for a Roar". Furthermore, Gen 5's Sleep Mechanics are just ridiculous and Gen 4 was a way better time to remove Sleep Clause.

...

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lolspeciesclause

tl;dr - I'd like to keep this game as skill-based as possible and I'm firmly against unbanning of OHKO moves and total reliance on Sleep Talk. However, I think Evasion and Moody are legitimate things to unban due to the prevalence of Thunder in Rain, Aura Sphere and Perish Song Arceus.

[KillingJFK]

I think its an awesome idea to do this testing, It's a great way to increase the activity in ubers and will hopefully add more legitimacy to the tier.

I see a lot of people commenting on the OHKO clause first. I'd like to remind everyone of a rather cheap Lapras set since it has not really been mentioned.

Lapras @ Leftovers
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-SheerCold
-Horn Drill

The EV spread really can vary, I'd personally go for max HP and max SpD. Lapras's bulk lets it take some massive hits. The use of Rest/SleepTalk allows it to have a 66% chance of OHKO.

Also Mind Reader+SheerCold Articuno... I think well all understand the principle of this set.

Also I personally just find that OHKO moves promotes banking on chance rather than using a proper strategy.

[barry4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat Iceydude168

tbh I see the clauses fine as they are - in fact, I'd even support Freeze Clause coming back. I want this game to be as much of a game of skill and as little a roll-the-dice luckbag as it can be. I definitely do not support OHKO clause removal. I do not want to be forced to run Sturdy or risk losing my entire team to 6 Sheer Colds hitting in a row. I do not want to run Sturdy period.

As much as I want to eliminate luckbag factors such as OHKO moves, I actually think Evasion is perfectly fine - Zekrom got Haze from an event, and Arceus has run Perish Song for all of gen 4 and gen 5. Moody is in the same bag as Evasion - run Perish Song and you have almost 100% insurance against Smeargle (bar stupid folks running Mr. Mime full Baton Pass in Ubers).

I really doubt we'll get down to discussing Sleep Clause, and I seriously doubt that removal of Sleep Clause will get us anywhere - Pokemon with Magic Mirror are weak to Dark (Darkrai is Ubers' primary sleep abuser), Pokemon with Insomnia are either weak to Dark or utterly useless, and Pokemon with Vital Spirit are Primeape. Sleep Talk is stupid - again bringing us back to the "I'd rather play smart than roll the dice and hope for a Roar". Furthermore, Gen 5's Sleep Mechanics are just ridiculous and Gen 4 was a way better time to remove Sleep Clause.

...

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lolspeciesclause

tl;dr - I'd like to keep this game as skill-based as possible and I'm firmly against unbanning of OHKO moves and total reliance on Sleep Talk. However, I think Evasion and Moody are legitimate things to unban due to the prevalence of Thunder in Rain, Aura Sphere and Perish Song Arceus.

I think you're being quite narrow minded here. While you stress on the fact that you want the metagame to be as skill oriented as possible, you do not exactly mention how. How exactly would you reprimand a player who wants to take the massive risk of using an OHKO move ? We already have moves like Focus Blast and Stone Edge which are prone to missing as well as stuff like Thunder and Scald. How different is the 30% hax rate from a 30% hit rate or free switch ? A crucial Focus Blast misscan cost you the game just as a crucial Sheer Cold hit can. On paper they seem pretty analogous. Like I keep saying, as long as we dont get a solid test, its wrong to just discard the idea and already take a negative stand. Secondly, no one is forcing you to run sturdy. Running Sturdy by no way means that you're say from say a Bulky sheer Cold Ogre. IT can just Surf or Scald your Sturdy mon i.e Forretress / Skarmory for a ton of damage. Also, Forry and Skarm with Sturdy are fairly popular anyway, running Keen Eye on Skarmory is just stupid.

I agree that I probably see Evasion clause being relatively less controversial as compared to the other clauses. Hardly any Pokemon, can effectively use Evasion apart from Bp chains. Even then Double Team boosts too slowly and the other pokemon can be easily smashed or phazed while it tries to boost. Only Blissey gets Minimize and it isn't sure as hell gonna run it.

Again, your stand on Sleep clause is flawed imo. Running Sleep Talk on a mon like Ho-Oh is a perfectly legitimate idea to counter Darkrai. You don't need to have Roar, to check Darkrai at all. I can probably envision Scarf Darkrai getting popular to Dark void leads and then coming back for trick and a second round of mayhem. Signficantly more controversial, that i will agree with you.

Originally Posted by Fat KillingJFK

I think its an awesome idea to do this testing, It's a great way to increase the activity in ubers and will hopefully add more legitimacy to the tier.

I see a lot of people commenting on the OHKO clause first. I'd like to remind everyone of a rather cheap Lapras set since it has not really been mentioned.

Lapras @ Leftovers
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-SheerCold
-Horn Drill

The EV spread really can vary, I'd personally go for max HP and max SpD. Lapras's bulk lets it take some massive hits. The use of Rest/SleepTalk allows it to have a 66% chance of OHKO.

Also Mind Reader+SheerCold Articuno... I think well all understand the principle of this set.

Also I personally just find that OHKO moves promotes banking on chance rather than using a proper strategy.

The primary use of OHKO moves, imo, would be to let a Pokemon beat another mon who would totally counter it otherwise. Say a Fissure Groudon vs a Giratina. Normally, a Groudon has no chance vs a Giratina, unless some really bad Will-o-wisp misses and stuff but Fissure gives Groudon a chance, albeit a 30% chance, to take out one of its biggest checks and possibly the most crucial element preventing you from sweeping your opponent's team. So, I doubt, dedicated OHKO teams or mons will ever be used much. Similarly, Mind Reader is quite useless sine your opponent can just switch out and Articuno itself gets 50% of its health ripped off on entering battle thanks to stealth rock on the field.

Lastly, we all bank on chance at times to increase our chance of winning. If it came down to a ditch attempt at taking out that pesky Giratina with Groudon, I wouldn't hesitate about doing it at all. That doesn't necessarily mean I've depended on chance the rest of the match. I've just decided to take the chance when all else has failed and I'm going to los. How different is it from banking on a critical hit or Scald burn to take out a last turn stall mon ? Stuff to think about.

[StarmieLazer]

I would also like to note that Chlorophyll Users that have Sleep Powder can also break The Metagame with Sleep Clause Gone. Considering sun is up, Lilligant and Venusaur can outspeed Darkrai, Heck Even Jumpluff Can.

As for Countering D-Rai Without Sleep Clause, Magic Bounce, Lum, Vital Spirit is pretty much your list. Some Non-Uber Mons can get Niches with this.

Vital Spirit Primeape Can Switch into ScarfDarkVoid for free, Fire a CC to kill Darkrai, or U-turn to predict the foe's Switch. But must be wary of Trick.

Insommia Scarfkhrow can also get into ScarfDarkVoid, would not mind getting tricked, Then Fire off a BB to kill Rai. (Adamant 252+Atk)



Moody Clause:The only thing Stopping this if it was unbanned is ScarfRai and Gastro Acid, But Gastro Acid is insanely neverused.


Evasion:Lock-On would be rare but can be used to land something, Basically what counters this is No Guard Mons, and Lock-On/Mindreader + OHKO/Boosted Stab Move/Status Move.


Here is something to Counter Moody

Serperior (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow/Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Gastro Acid
- Taunt
- Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse
- Toxic/Mean Look

Gastro Again, Since it Outspeeds Even Moody Smeargle, (Unless it gets A Speed Boost).
After Being Gastroe'd, Taunt It or vice-versa. Afterwards, If you plan to trap it Mean Look is Good, or Cripple it With Toxic. But Once Contrary is out, you can hit it continuously with Leaf Storm to boost your Special Attack
And Substitute can be used to avoid status.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Trait: Moody
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 SDef
Timid Nature
- Lock-On
- Sheer Cold
- Protect
- Endeavor

Lock-on to Hit it with Sheer Cold, Protect to get a Moody Boost, Endeavor to make Target's HP 1 after broken sash. With some passive damage like Toxic Spikes, The Evasive Pokemon will die.

They might be unorthodox but it's worth a shot.

[Splendiferous]

Why not just put perish song on something like support Arceus. Those sets are shit and don't do anything else apart from beating moody.

[BattleStar]

This is really cool. I honestly never was really into the Uber meta game but with what's happening now I think this is enough to finally get me really interested. It's going to be fun by starting this out with the OHKO clause. Foresight-Sheer Cold Articuno lol

[Darklight99]

Yeah Well, since they most probably will be banned again, at least it will be fun to play for a little while without those clauses.

[Jangrafess]

I think what's really genuinely exciting me about this is the idea of what the metagame will be like in the tests where several of the clauses are removed simultaneously. It's a lot easier to predict what will happen if we remove the OHKO clause in isolation or the Sleep Clause by itself, etc. When you combine several, though, we'll see some very interesting things happening. For instance, talking about the benefits of Lock On when OHKO Clause isn't in operation is fine by itself and we've seen some people talk about the pros and cons either way but surely that'll work differently if we're removing Evasion Clause as well? It'd serve a purpose other than ensuring it's OHKO moves that hit as you wouldn't be relying on Thunder, Aura Sphere or other similar moves for a definite hit: you're be Locking On with what'd usually be an ordinary move or forcing the switch as they're scared of an ordinary move only to whack whatever comes out with a move that would perhaps have had a lower chance of hitting the pokemon with ludicrously high evasion beforehand. On the other hand, you weaken the potential attractiveness of Lock On if a lack of Sleep Clause puts reliance on Sleep Talking as a strategy.

I'm still new to the game but I see a lot of scope for innovation here which is very exciting indeed. I'd imagine that in the end we'll see no changes but more enticing to me than a metagame with one clause removed is the option (at the least) for a metagame with no restrictions at all.

[King John]

I'm all for giving Moody Clause a try.

Now, before you all grab the pitchforks and torches, let me remind you all that the Pokemon who get are -easily- destroyed by anything in Ubers, even with the massive boosts that they get with Moody (I mean, for example, would you REALLY want to use Bibarel in Ubers, even with Moody? Seriously?). Like Aquazz said, at least ban Smeargle if it is considered, because the artist dog has Baton Pass, and that can cause unholy hell no matter who recieves those boosts. (For example, imagine Reshiram with +6 on ALL of it's stats.....under the sun.). Even though it may not happen, at least think about the cold hard facts.

[StarmieLazer]

Originally Posted by Fat King John

I'm all for giving Moody Clause a try.

Now, before you all grab the pitchforks and torches, let me remind you all that the Pokemon who get are -easily- destroyed by anything in Ubers, even with the massive boosts that they get with Moody (I mean, for example, would you REALLY want to use Bibarel in Ubers, even with Moody? Seriously?). Like Aquazz said, at least ban Smeargle if it is considered, because the artist dog has Baton Pass, and that can cause unholy hell no matter who recieves those boosts. (For example, imagine Reshiram with +6 on ALL of it's stats.....under the sun.). Even though it may not happen, at least think about the cold hard facts.

The thing is.... You can protect spam easily along with dual screens support. But do note that scarf imposter Ditto is a hard counter for moody mons. Moody mons can come into walls, set up a sub then protect sub spam.

Biderp nearly had to be banned because of this ability. Biderp. All the Pokemon that obtain this ability have a way of abusing it to get ridiculous levels of stat boosts and eventually become able to steamroll their way through an entire team. The ability itself is very easy to take advantage of, by wasting time with Protect and Substitute until you get a load of evasion boosts, and unless one is using a defensive Bibarel, in which case Unaware is preferred, Moody is almost always the best option. Indeed, it is thought to be so overpowered that Smogon does not allow the use of Moody in any of its standard metagames, including Ubers.



P.S: I agree on the Smeargle thing being Abnormally Broken. That is why on my earlier post, Taunt is there to prevent passing of boosts.
Counters: Gastro Acid, Mold Breaker and its clones, Skill Swap, Entrainment Durant,Imposter Ditto,"add more"

So, it can be retested.. But still broken with the right support.

[Poppy]

Originally Posted by Fat BattleStar

This is really cool. I honestly never was really into the Uber meta game but with what's happening now I think this is enough to finally get me really interested. It's going to be fun by starting this out with the OHKO clause. Foresight-Sheer Cold Articuno lol

Before people continue to theorize about the undoubtedly euphoria-inducing Mind Reader + Sheer Cold Articuno (or combinations identical in effect) know that Mind Reader only affects the Pokemon it hits, meaning that they can just switch out again and you'd have been better off using Sheer Cold twice. Moreover, the two dominant sets with OHKO clause removed I can see at the moment will be -

Gliscor
move 1: Guillotine
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Taunt
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe

Your traditional stallbreaker Gliscor just got a whole lot more scary. This set is notorious for the ridiculous amount of free turns it gets by people trying to switch around and avoid their important Pokemon getting Toxic'd and at the same time breaking Gliscor's Substitute. Now, rather than doing pathetic chip damage with Earthquake, Gliscor now threatens almost every potential switch in with a 30% chance to instantly die, Sturdy and Ghost Pokemon excluded. This set obviously has some workarounds, like Skarmory or Forretress with HP Ice, or even switching back and forth between a combination of Sturdy, Ghost-type and Toxic-immune Pokemon until Gullotine's measly PP is burned out.

As I have mentioned in the other thread, defensive RestTalk Kyogre now can tear through all defensive approaches to checking it - I won't go into much more detail as I've outlined its uses in this post - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...42&postcount=2

And here is the set I am talking about -

Kyogre
move 1: Sheer Cold
move 2: Scald
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Leftovers
ability: Drizzle
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

Originally Posted by Fat King John

I'm all for giving Moody Clause a try.

Now, before you all grab the pitchforks and torches, let me remind you all that the Pokemon who get are -easily- destroyed by anything in Ubers, even with the massive boosts that they get with Moody (I mean, for example, would you REALLY want to use Bibarel in Ubers, even with Moody? Seriously?). Like Aquazz said, at least ban Smeargle if it is considered, because the artist dog has Baton Pass, and that can cause unholy hell no matter who recieves those boosts. (For example, imagine Reshiram with +6 on ALL of it's stats.....under the sun.). Even though it may not happen, at least think about the cold hard facts.

Yes, as the poster above has addressed, Bibarel was / would be completely legitimate in the Ubers metagame. As a fully evolved Pokemon with an offensive stat above 80 it is entirely capable of sweeping teams with enough boosts under its belt. Its simple and completely assured (i.e. no risk on the users part) use of Substitute + Protect to rack up boosts makes it terrifying -- note, the use of Perish Song / Haze is irrelevant to my point, as there is still no /risk/ on the users part. Octillery is slower, but possesses a similar of threat due its more powerful offensive stats and better movepool.

Smeargle undoubtedly has the most potential due to access to Baton Pass and Stored Power, Spore is secondary, which goes to show how fucking lethal this set is when what is normally regarded as one of the most broken moves in the game is not a necessity on this set. A fully boosted Stored Power OHKOes almost everything that isn't a Dark-type, even coming off Smeargle's pathetic Special Attack stats, with the few things that can survive being Jirachi and Multiscale Lugia.

Now, as a general address, to prevent repeated accusations of broken and general close-mindedness, please refer to these posts regarding the following topics

Absolute Broken-ness without Sleep Clause

Originally Posted by Fat Syrim

Like I said before it's not that you can't beat sleep, it's that it will make the metagame dramatically different and that might not appeal to certain players. For instance, Scarf darkrai becoming the top notch scarfer because of its ability to buy time against pretty much every threat not running lum berry, and any arceus form lacking sleep talk bar extreme killer, or the simple inability to revenge its usual sweeping set with a scarfer could be extremely troublesome. You mention beating darkrai with a scarfer, but to get in safely with no sleep clause, you have to make a pretty massive prediction. We can all run scarf heracross I guess, but logic like that was used to keep things out in OU testing.

I think that sleep talk will be the most similar to OU testing out of all of the options, simply because we do have most of the tools to deal with the main abusers, and it will retain the most elements of player skill. Specially defensive Kyogre is and will always be an excellent sleep absorber, and is more viable than ever with kyu-w running around. 50/50s will certainly abound when we test sleep clause, but smart teambuilding can certainly manage risk here.

Unviability of OHKO moves due to innacuracy

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

Your dismissal of OHKO clause isn't really on the money at all. My post here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...42&postcount=2 goes into some depth about the viability of OHKO moves in practice. Dugtrio may gain a niche at taking out support Pokemon it previously could not, such as Chansey and Blissey (51% to KO for two tries). Lapras is extremely bulky and has Hydration. I could go on, but there are definite niches to the usage of the move, the main being dominating slower defensive teams which rely mainly on residual damage and phazing to win. Defensive approaches to dealing with Pokemon having one of these moves in their arsenal, such as using Toxic or chipping away at a Pokemon's HP give a large window of opportunity to land an OHKO move, and the chance is actually in favour of the OHKO user.

The Use of Mind Reader / Lock On

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

Before people continue to theorize about the undoubtedly euphoria-inducing Mind Reader + Sheer Cold Articuno (or combinations identical in effect) know that Mind Reader only affects the Pokemon it hits, meaning that they can just switch out again and you'd have been better off using Sheer Cold twice.

Evasion as a 'Broken Strategy' (With Primary Regards to the use of Double Team)

Originally Posted by Fat Jibaku

Maybe I'm very biased, but based on my experiences in the GBU, Evasion isn't quite as threatening as I would have imagined it. Despite the fact that almost everything learns Double Team, there are quite a few factors that make it a double-edged pick.

- The time you could be using Double Team could be used for something more productive. This includes hitting things on the switch, setting up something for a -guaranteed- damage payoff (as opposed to setting up 1 DT which gives little evasion for you to gamble on to do your second set up, in which case it's probably not worth it anyways).

- That moveslot for Double Team can often be used for something else. Let's face it - Double Team isn't like Swords Dance or Calm Mind and won't quite help you sweep. Further along, it's not a team support move either. It's also not a strong defensive move because you need luck to actually stall with it, and when you are trying to set it up you're going to need lots of it. Chances are you'll be more easily forced to switch out trying to do that (+1 Evasion is 25% dodge and +2 is 40%, which are rather small numbers compared to the 33% and 50% of +1 or +2 defensive boosts, respectively). Not only can't Double Team replace the traditional set up moves, if you still want to use it, you have to sacrifice important coverage (i.e SD/Sub/DT/Outrage Garchomp). Also, most stuff in Ubers suffer from a 4 moveslot syndrome already - good luck fitting Double Team in and expecting it to do something.

- Fast paced metagame does not favor gambling. This is the reason that is used to justify that OHKOes aren't broken, and this can not be more true on evasion, especially with the low payoffs. On the other side of things, even stall doesn't suffer much from DT, because they have a lot of opportunities to phaze, and possibly even stall out the fully set up DT user if they dont have a set up move. Also, Perish Song.

- Lastly, Thunder and Aura Sphere can deter Double Team's presence, even though it's not as effective.

Of course, though, Double Team can dodge lethal blows that might still cut through defensive boosts. But its lack of offensive presence as a stat up move means the DT user might just get stalled out, and the subpar defensive presence means you have to gamble a lot to actually make it work. Then there's also the fact that DT could pull out a clutch win, but honestly there's already a million ways to do that already (paraflinch Jirachi, Sub SV Garchomp, or hey, even the aforementioned Sheer Cold Kyogre if OHKO Clause gets taken out), and Double Team isn't really anything special. Maybe pulling out clutch wins is all that DT is useful for...

The most dangerous Evasion is going to get is probably something like Minimize/Baton Pass Drifblim because that's actually legit scary if it sets up. But it is weak to Thunder and can be foiled by an untimely phaze which will pretty much leave it useless for the rest of the game.

Moody is an entirely different story because it doesn't actually require you to use a set up move and it raises everything.

The Recommendation of Complex Bans

e.g.

Originally Posted by Fat Aquazz

-Moody Clause: Now, before I'm burned at the stake, let me make it clear that I agree with the notion that Moody is purely a luck-based ability that doesn't belong in competitive play. However, if it were to be considered then I would like to make the proposal to have one limitation: Ban Smeargle with Moody.

Refer to -

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

While the rest of your post is very good, I do want to address this part, the underlined lines in particular.

This brings up the largest points of contention: do we aim for an enjoyable metagame, or a metagame where everything that isn't 'broken' is allowed? Limiting the clauses is, at first glance, going against the principality of the second point. Disregarding the fact that it could very well be the objective limit of broken-ness, it is, at this point, an arbitrary limit that could very easily be applied in other forms to the other clause; let us say that we were to allow Moody without Smeargle, or perhaps raise sleep clause's limit to two Pokemon instead of one. Complex bans are generally frowned upon because they are, as true to their namesake, complex; simplicity is something Smogon strives for. However, as outlined in this post - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...0&postcount=25 concerning the controversial SS + Drizzle ban

The problem here being that we aren't making a complex ban for something that is allowed, we're modifying an existing ban to a complex one. As it stands, issues of conveyance in analyses regarding our existing complex ban have already been brought to light as seen in this post - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103058 and if we add onto that by altering clauses to suit our forever nebulous 'desirable' metagame we are exasperating that problem and creating something highly artificial that deviates from playing 'Pokemon'.

By no means am I asking for absolute adherence to all of these, but please at least read and take them into account before posting.

[charlord]

I haven't bothered to post, ever. I had to make an account here just to discuss this when I heard about it, actually. But being a decent (1800+) Ubers player who runs very unorthodox teams, I have to say that while it's very fun using wobbufett and gastrodon and other non-ubers who have gimmicky niches, it doesn't get you very far. With that in mind, I'd support lifting some clauses because they won't be too hard on experienced players.

Looking at OHKO moves:

30% accuracy. Is it worth a moveslot to have a last-ditch maybe-successful KO? Is it worth building a team around to try and raise the accuracy when Dragon tail and Roar are on every team? Probably not. Let the OHKO's come back. They may cause some frustrating losses, but nothing big.

As for Evasion:

Prankster thundurus has been mentioned before, and that would be a terror with Double Team. It resists aura sphere and can eliminate Kyogre, meaning 100% accurate Thunder isn't guaranteed. Then there's all the other prankster users, which are annoying enough as is. No guard is on Machamp. Machamp is not viable in Ubers.

Moving to Moody:

Moody is just stupid. Sure, it's not an instant win, it can be beaten, (outside of Smeargle) but really? Octillery with one evasion boost means life just got really hard. there's already a lot of threats in Ubers to prepare for, and adding one that is very debatable and takes a lot of skill out of things isn't really fun. I will never vote for Moody.

Sleep Clause:

relying on sleep talk to pick a good move? there's only a 67% chance you even do anything. insomnia isn't worth commenting on. Scarf Darkrai is beaten by other scarfers (scarf mewtwo use would go up quite a bit), and since we're discussing gimmicky things, is OHKO'd by +1 speed life orb ninjask. Breloom's too slow, but all the Chlorophyll pokemon would be really annoying. I don't really care about this one, it'd just be something new.

Species Clause? Let's face it, Arceus/Mewtwo would dominate. Neither need much team support, and can even support themselves with varying sets. Ridiculous.

[Malkariss]

I do believe that sleep clause and ohko is not broken, we cud easliy unban that, just people will with to alter their teams to fit the new upgrade, moody could work with banning of baton pass on that pokemon
Evasion clause wud need some testing but it will make moves like aura sphere and faint attck more used on teams in order to counter teams that use it, if we allow sandveil i think double team cud be allow as other evasion moves but the game wud be altered,
MAYbe an alternate game type, like no ban uber and normal uber games, the no ban will have no restrictions and the normal will be played as smogon wants is

[garchompubers]

Honestly I think that all of the clauses or neccesary and without them they wouldn't seem very fun....but who knows until they are tested? What I'm trying to say is that the metagame would be even more broken and unfair without these clauses. Imagine a pokemon setting up to +6 evasion, and imagine noobs winning on 30 percent luck...but I am glad that we are finally treating ubers as an actual tier. I'm decent at Ubers and hope by when the time to vote comes, I can be counted in. :D

[Terraquaza]

theres no need for unbanning if you ask me. no sleep/ohko clause would just make the metagame much more random and it just destroys the fun of pokemon if i lose my only counter just because of misses. some ohko abusers are even bulky enough for a resttalk/ohkomove set.
if species clause is unbanned, there would be too many threats to cover, especially a team of arceus would suck because many of them have completely different counters.
the community made clauses because we players want to have fun, so we should keep them.

(never faced moody so i cant say something about that)

[syrim]

In addition the the set's Poppy listed that he and I touched on in previous posts, I'd like to mention another few sets, one in particular, that can very easily make stall an extremely difficult thing to pull off successfully.


Excadrill, Bulky rain set
~ Rapid Spin
~ Earthquake
~ Fissure
~ Substitute/ Rock Slide/Swords Dance
176 HP / 60 Atk / 252 SpD / 20 Spe (standard evs to avoid confusion/metagaming)
Mold Breaker

Excadrill with Mold breaker, and legal OHKO moves, makes for a spinner that is impossible to counter, at least on paper, for any full stall team. By nature of its typing, excellent special bulk, and ability to force non-ghost types on hazard dependent stall out through the threat of rapid spin, Excadrill will have many, many opportunities to set up on defensive teams. The set is hugely threatening to any spi blocker. Earthquake+stealth rock is enough to keep the standard, and pretty much any bar rest talk variants, Giratina-o from switching in more than twice on Earthquake ((Excadrill@Leftovers (60 EVs, +Nature) Earthquake vs Giratina-O (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 36.2 ~ 43% (160 ~ 190 HP)), and if one outspeeds Gira-o it will often not even get these chances. This means you still retain the ability to beat the most common spinblocker, but the addition of a OHKO move allows you to pretty reliably, over the course of a stall based match up, beat Giratina-a, and Ghost Arceus.

Giratina-a can no longer ensure beating Excadrill with WoW, and has to stall out all of Fissure's pp to keep excadrill from spinning, while it can really only deal chip damage or Phaze excadrill in return. The inclusion of sub betters your chances against Gira-a if it does not carry roar, but if you assume it does it will always be better to Fissure Twice.

Arceus Ghost can also no longer reliably check excadrill, though it cannot hope to stop sand variants anyways, which is not irrelevant considering stall's need to adjust to all playstyles. With substitute especially, and the notable ability to live the already quoted and a little ironic in this context Focus Blast, your chances of getting a successful Fissure off are pretty good, given the obvious accuracy of the opponents move, their need to recover frequently due to EQ and hazard vulnerability, and the inability to OHKO with a standard moveset.

I think excadrill's niche as a spinner warrants usage in a OHKO metagame, and though it brings a unique function and possibility of dismantling with little prediction to the table, it still checks annoying pokemon like Darkceus and Dialga very effectively. I wouldn't claim it will have as many set up opportunities and utility as the Gliscor set Poppy and I have both mentioned, or the sheer bulk of Sheer Cold Kyogre, but it brings an ability to remove the omnipresent hazards, and and a great way to beat every spinblocker over the course of a match, that no other Pokemon can boast of.

Another important aspect of OHKO excadrill is that it can lessen prediction, by relying on a 30% chance. For instance, your opponent has a 50% giratina-o, and neither of you are sure who outspeeds who in a match up versus your Excadrill. They also carry Groudon, at decent health. A switch to groudon on a predicted earthquake, to remove the blocker once and for all, will force the excadrill user to either switch, and not spin, spin and die, or just die if they do not outspeed. If excadrill chose to use fissure, this possibility could be ignored completely. I think this is a prime example of the "when is it worth it" argument Bojangle's OP leads us to, and it is also a great tie in to a factor of a "desirable metagame". I prefer to leave these questions open ended at this stage to stimulate discussion, so, in what ways does this encourage skillful plays? It obviously correlates with the Focus blast analogy of the OP, but is this evidence of a player manging risk through creative movesets and statistics, or it it "too luck reliant"? Does this slate the favor too heavily in favor of offensive movesets?

Please consider relevant points from all above posters before responding, thanks.

[Namikaze]

Originally Posted by Fat garchompubers

Honestly I think that all of the clauses or neccesary and without them they wouldn't seem very fun....but who knows until they are tested? What I'm trying to say is that the metagame would be even more broken and unfair without these clauses. Imagine a pokemon setting up to +6 evasion, and imagine noobs winning on 30 percent luck...but I am glad that we are finally treating ubers as an actual tier. I'm decent at Ubers and hope by when the time to vote comes, I can be counted in. :D

First and foremost, the ubers metagame is probably the most stable and balanced of all metagames. There is a centralization of mons which causes a lack of diversity to an extent, but that in itself is what attributes to its stability. The's no single broken pokemon as they all havehave their own checks and counters. With that said, I don't see how you can go around calling it broken and unfair. Ubers has also always been a competitive tier, only a little less popular than OU. So to realize now that we've been treating it as a tier.... That's enough said.

Originally Posted by Fat Terraquaza

theres no need for unbanning if you ask me. no sleep/ohko clause would just make the metagame much more random and it just destroys the fun of pokemon if i lose my only counter just because of misses. some ohko abusers are even bulky enough for a resttalk/ohkomove set.
if species clause is unbanned, there would be too many threats to cover, especially a team of arceus would suck because many of them have completely different counters.
the community made clauses because we players want to have fun, so we should keep them.

(never faced moody so i cant say something about that)

The whole reason for the testing, other than to get the ubers metagame some well deserved attention and community involvement, is to see whether or not ubers needs these clauses to remain a competitive and fun tier. We shouldn't dismiss unbanning these clauses since we don't know at this point what effect they will have on the metagame. There's alot of speculation going on which is fine and dandy, but once again, the purpose of the testing is to see whether these clauses, or a lack there of can make the metagame even more enjoyable and competitive for the public. Finally, the ubers tier has always revolved around those pokemon labelled as ubers with a few others who hold niches in the tier. To check all of them even with species clause in effect is impossible for a six pokemon team and for all we know removing clauses can either aid in or hinder our ability to do so. So once again, we won't know until we're done testing.

[ssbbm]

i think species clause WILL make stall unviable

sure, stall can run double pokemon x to deal with things like double rayquaza

but the second stall does that, it loses a valuable pokemon slot: it's possible to check double rayquaza, but can you check double rayquaza AND double kyogre AND double reshiram AND double deoxys-a AND double darkrai AND double Groudon AND double Arceus...?

stall has to be able to check the metagame, but there are too many threats after species clause becomes disallowed. for example, 6x sd arceus is only beatable by running multiple giratina / wallceus / skarmory, but those open up other threats for the team

[StarmieLazer]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

i think species clause WILL make stall unviable

sure, stall can run double pokemon x to deal with things like double rayquaza

but the second stall does that, it loses a valuable pokemon slot: it's possible to check double rayquaza, but can you check double rayquaza AND double kyogre AND double reshiram AND double deoxys-a AND double darkrai AND double Groudon AND double Arceus...?

stall has to be able to check the metagame, but there are too many threats after species clause becomes disallowed. for example, 6x sd arceus is only beatable by running multiple giratina / wallceus / skarmory, but those open up other threats for the team

Correct on Pointing That Out, without Species Clause, Stall is now unviable, Bulky Offense also would drop and HO would dominate the Uber Metagame.


Arceus can also Surprise by using Different Forms (E.G) Arceus-Rock would decimate Ho-OH and the like while ExtremeKiller Breaks Stuff that Rock would not handle, they support Each other Well.

Electric Arceus and Ice Arceus Form the Dreaded Boltbeam Combo (Since both learn Stab Judgment and Ice beam/T-Bolt) Your Bolt-beam weak Team would possibly have trouble with one Arceus, but it cannot take two Arceii Assault.




Anyway, Here is my Thoughts on the OHKO Clause and some Viable Stuff: (But not Better than Resttalk, that set is Epic)

Set: Accuracy Abuse Item:Sash/Petaya/??? Ev's: 252HP 252 Speed 4 Defense
Smeargle (M)
Trait:Moody
Nature:Timid (+Spd -Atk)
- Gravity/Coil
- Substitute/Baton Pass
- Spore
- Sheer Cold

Imagine the Destructive Power of Both Moody and Sheer Cold At once. If you get an Accuracy Boost from Moody along with gravity, will make sure Sheer Cold will hit most of the time. But Smeargle is Very Frail, So use with caution. Baton Pass is good if risky play is what you want (you Risk being Phazed to pass and if you used SC instead you would have gotten a kill), or if your Smeargle Has been passed A sub already.

While Coil is A more Reliable Option for Smeargle, boosting its defense to take a Banded Butterfree's Tackle (Joke Intended) And it Raises Accuracy, while lasting permanently till Hazed, Phazed, or Switched Out (Except When Baton Passed). Instead of a 5 Turn Gravity, Altough Gravity is usable when its very Risky To Setup Coil and Pass it.

Substitute vs Baton Pass is all a Thing of Sweeper vs Passer, with Substitute, you are able to predict alot easier and can rack up Moody Boosts, while Baton Pass Passes Moody Boosts and sends them to a Deadly Sweeper. A Specs Kyurem-W will possibly Wreck everything: even OHKO'ing Blissey After Rocks with DM. but can't abuse OHKO moves since it can't learn them. The Best Receiver would be Ogre. Since you will be barely using Anything Else Aside Sheer Cold,.

Kyogre
Item:Life Orb/Leftovers/??? (Suggest Something Better)
Trait:Drizzle
Nature: Timid
EV's: 4 HP/ 252 Spa / 252 Spe
-Water Spout
-Sheer Cold
-Thunder
- Hydro Pump/Surf

This is one of the Sets that can actually beat Sturdymons 1 on 1. Anyone switching into Sheer Cold will be Destroyed by Water Spout (2HKO due to Sturdy or Stealth Rocks to break Sturdy), Thunder destroys Palkia Switch-ins Predicting Water Spout (The 30% Paralysis is Very Handy). And once at low health, Surf is useful if you didn't pass any Accuracy boosts, but usually Hydro Pump is the Best Option. (To save Sheer Cold PP, like on a Weakened Groudon or a Weakened Arceus, or Multiscale Broken Lugia)

And Back to Killing Moody:
Dual Chop Haxorus:
I know its Crazy but why would you be using a Dual Chop Haxorus when there is Outrage:
Answer:Substitute
Sub Moodier's are the Bane Of non-dual Chop Haxorus. But by Equipping it by one, you''ll break the sub and possibly OHKO smeargle.

Suggested Set:
Haxorus (M) @Lum Berry
Trait:Mold Breaker
-Dragon Dance
-Dual Chop
-Earthquake
-Superpower/Outrage.

Lum Protects you from Spore and Dark Void, From Moody Smeargle to ScarfDarkrai (Back to Sleep Clause here) As they use the Move, Dragon Dance and Tada! You have a Status Free +1 Haxorus in To kill with Dual Chop. (Rai still outspeeds, so Kill it with Superpower instead of setting up)
Superpower +0 vs +0 Darkrai (252 Spa/ 252 Sp.Def/ 252 Speed)= 344 - 406 OHKO

Rayquaza with 229 Ev's Adamant is same as 252 Adamant Haxorus, Dual Chop Calcs:

Attack vs Defense Item:Lum

Smeargle Ev's: 252HP/252 Speed/ 4 Defense Timid

+1 Dual Chop vs +0 Smeargle= OHKO
+0 Dual Chop vs +0 Smeargle= 110.8% - 130.6% OHKO
+0 Dual Chop vs +1 Smeargle= 74.5% - 87.9% 2HKO
+0 Dual Chop vs +2 Smeargle= 55.4% - 65.6% 2HKO
+2 Dual Chop vs +1 Smeargle= OHKO

So It Concludes it, since you have alot of chances to setup DD in the face of Smeargle, then kill it. So you would usually be at +1.

[locoghoul]

My 2 cents:

OHKO clause: unnecessary. It won't affect the metagame that much considering the top players don't like to gamble in the first place. You'll see some spamming the first month then only occasionally. I'd be in favor to test it.

Sleep Clause: I actually think this should be changed to 2 pokemon rather than 1. At least it would be middle ground as opposed to not have it at all.

Species Clause: I don't support the removal of this one. It will get too complicated to counter stuff and also to make teams.

Moody Clause: I'm gonna say that this is a necessary evil. It's fine the way it is.

Evasion Clause: Let's test it. Who is going to run DT on a moveslot? Please. Not broken.

[Jibaku*]

if you get an Accuracy Boost from Moody along with gravity, will make sure Sheer Cold will hit most of the time

You do realize that OHKO moves are unaffected by accuracy/evasion modifiers?

(Mind Reader/Lock On/No Guard are excluded because they don't really modify accuracy. They just make your move hit)

[firecape]

Ok a lot of people really don't understand Moody very well at all. Seeing as I was the one who made the the push for banning Moody originally, I think I should post.

I'm all for giving it another test because I don't really care, but in my opinion it is extremely broken and frustrating. I hate to say it but stuff like this

Set: Accuracy Abuse Item:Sash/Petaya/??? Ev's: 252HP 252 Speed 4 Defense
Smeargle (M)
Trait:Moody
Nature:Timid (+Spd -Atk)
- Gravity/Coil
- Substitute/Baton Pass
- Spore
- Sheer Cold

is kind of just plain doing it wrong. It's not the offensive boosts and potential to pass that makes Moody so threatening, its really the evasion. I mean, really, Gravity? Might as well just use Lock On at that point... Evasion was the factor that made me consider Moody so undeniably broken. I guess you could try to use it with Smeargle to pass more boosts, but Shell Smash with dual screens is already extremely easy to pull off, so why settle for random boosts that may not even help a sweeper? I used Toxic Spikes with Moody Pokemon with Substitute + Protect and Leftovers and easily demolished most things in my path. It requires no strategy really. Given, a grounded poison type does give this type of play some trouble, but they are usually found on more defensively oriented teams (think Tentacruel and stall teams with Poison Arceus because they are weak to tspikes), so Moody already steps all over them because they rarely have anything to deal with a Moody Pokemon (have fun trying to use Toxic against a faster mon with Substitute, Protect, and evasion boosts). Moves that always hit such as Thunder in the rain and Aura Sphere were a bit of a problem, but Toxic Spikes with a Speed boost and a few cycles of Protect + Substitute quickly puts an end to the common users (Palkia, Kyogre, Mewtwo etc).

Also I don't like the idea of OHKO clause being removed ;_;, Thunder parahaxes quite alot............ (/whining)

[Jibaku*]

I just want to note that, yes, it was very much Evasion that made Moody so unbearable to play against. A single miss could snowball the entire game out of your control. However, before anyone cites that it's a reason why evasion should remain banned, it's definitely important to remember that Moody sets up Evasion for free and all you needed to do was stall. This is much harder to do with Double Team as you're very vulnerable on that turn you set it up, and the fact that Moody itself grants other set ups in one convenient ability slot.