Counter That Uber Pokémon! - Teambuilder [Team 1 Voting!]

[Furai]

• Mr.lol's Offensive CM Kyogre
• BlueStar99's Scarf Kyurem-W
• Cherub Agent's Specs Kyogre
• Furai's Specs Kyurem-W

Personally, I am turn apart between Mr.lol's and Cherub Agent's Kyogre sets. Both will be extremely effective against team 2. However, I think that Specs Kyogre is a little to easy to counter, I'm looking at you Gastrodon. While Clear Smog DOES stop CM Kyogre, it's gonna have a harder time as it will take more from Ice Beam. Yet, Specs Kyogre's immediate power is so appealing... I'll post my vote after I decide.

HAVE FUN, and again, only vote to 1 nomination, you can't vote to yourself, please bold your vote


good day

[Cherub Agent]

Furai's Specs Kyurem-W

Just wanna say this: when Furai says that Specs Kyogre is easier to counter with Gastrodon, keep in mind that team 2 will probably not use 4 ground-types...

Voting for Furai because Kyurem-W comes the closest to white Specs Kyogre does, minus outspeeding Excadrill. It also gives us a dragon that doesn't compound the horrific ice weakness, and I love seeing it on teams

[Mr.lol]

BlueStar99's Scarf Kyurem-W

While it is a lot less powerful, it provides a solid revenge killer. It also baits Chansey which................................. I'll leave it at that (can be used to setup other sweepers :P)

[BlueStar99]

Furai's Specs Kyurem-W
It provides gargantuan power and not compounding the ice weakness. Unfortunately, it can be revenge killed by faster sweepers and scarfers due to its bad defense but that can be fixed by adding a Wobuffett or a scarfer to the team.

[bygbyrd]

Slow specs pokes can do a lot of damage, but they can also be taken advantage up by a fast sweeper for the revenge kill. Team one is very offensive and doesn't have the defensive backbone necessary to support specs Kyurem or Kyogre.

So my vote goes to Mr.lol's CM Kyogre who is difficult to revenge kill.

[Furai]

More votes guys! Let's go~

[TheStarRapper]

I think that the major defensive (after a CM) and offensive power of Mr.lol's CM Kyogre is a good idea. Plus Rain is a good way to prevent Ho-Oh or excadrill from doing work.

[syrim]

Because of Poppy's Zekrom set, mostly, the use of Mr. Lol's Kyogre set seems to be the best option. Both can easily dent Ferrothorn beyond repair, and make breaking past it, especially considering the huge recoil Poppy's set will likely take, much easier.

Firstly, I would not consider a Kyu form for this team. It already has an SR weak sweeper, and a large inability to switch into Dragon type attacks. The need for prediction on any of the mentioned sets also troubles me, as this team can really not afford to allow the opponent the chance to set up. Neither provide any of the type resistances Heavy offense like this will need to function, and both will provide many chances for the opponent to set up and possibly sweep.

Kyogre also adds a valuable Ice resistance as noted earlier. The inclusion of leftovers as the item means that this obviously offensive team will still have a little bit of bulk against special attacks, likely to set up after a sac, or KO. This Kyogre cannot easily be walled either, and because of the aforementioned Offensive nature of the team I believe a set with less chances of failed prediction, as compared to the Specs Kyogre set, will cause less turn of forced switches, and with the minimal bulk of this team, forced switches will often spell KOs. In other words, losing momentum on a misprediction versus, say, Latias, with the current team means that much of our team is in for a lot of pain, while mr. lol's set can at least render it easy to revenge through thunder, and maybe even beat it.

I also think that the loss of offense is not as significant as it may seem, especially considering the lessened prediction. We can still break ferro, and even chansey will be left broken and nigh useless after beating us with toxic, though it will accomplish this. Lastly, even though this set has more hard counters than the specs set, all of them are easily able to be set up upon by our other, physically based teammates, while the set still retains much offensive synergy by weakening problem pokemon like Ferrothorn and Latias, and also providing a way to force out troublesome physical walls like Lugia and Groudon, should they begin to entrench themselves.

[Furai]

That pretty much seals it, Mr.lol's Kyogre won this vote!

Start nominating another Pokemon for Team 1 to use!

[King John]

Reshiram @ Choice Specs
Ability: TurboBlaze
Nature: Modest (+SpAtk, -Atk)
EVs: 252 SpAtk/252 Spe/4 Def
- Blue Flare
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower

Kinda generic, but it works well.

[TheStarRapper]

Woo first set post in this type of thread, and it is weird but I'll go for it anyway.

BirdyTrans!

Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse

Explanations: Timid over Modest because we can now outspeed both Excadrill and Mamoswine. Fire Blast for general hell raising, Toxic is a big deal to cripple Ho-oH and Lugia, and Dragon Pulse so opposing Dragons don't use us as set up bait. Earth Power in case they throw in opposing Tran.

Well Shit, TSR
They have 3 ground types with Earthquake. Yes but we have Air Balloon, moves that can 2HKO (or OHKO) all three, and outspeed them all.


Hippowdon:
Fire Blast: 57.47 - 68.03%

Excadrill:
Fire Blast: 154.14 - 181.21%
Earth Power: 77.34 - 91.16% (More reliable accuracy in Rain if scenario arises)

Lugia:
Fire Blast: 30.52 - 36.29% not so pretty but Toxic will hurt it severely

Mamoswine:
With a change to Thick Fat, Mamo stomachs a Fire Blast for a hearty 81.99 - 96.95%

Speculation and Looking Ahead: Currently Team Two is mega weak to Kyogre's water STAB, with their only salvation being in a) changing weather back to sand and b)adding adding major water resists to make up for this fact. Looking ahead, two of the best counters to water are Ferrothorn and Palkia, one being defensive and the other being offensive.

Ferrothorn takes 75% from Fire Blast in Rain, easy OHKO in neutral or sun.

Palkia takes 52.95 - 62.3% from Dragon Pulse but we wouldn't want to stay in on it anyway for fear of Hydro Pump, but I'm just being thorough.

I just wanted to try and think ahead in their teambuilding process.

I will say that this opens us up slightly to CM Fight Arceus, we just gotta stay on our game and it won't be too big of a threat.

Also I assume that Team Two can go back and change their Mamo to Thick Fat, the OP says they still have Oblivious.

[Mr.lol]

Deoxys-S @ Light Clay (no this is not a deo-n (BUT THAT COULD WORK!!!))
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atl)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 Def
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Taunt
- Ice Beam

We need some method of setting up our sweepers 0_0. Guess what this Deoxys-S does? Oh and lol, the current offensive pressure our team provides forces the other team to get a check for Kyogre meaning that picking something that can beat Deoxys-S is out of the question unless they want to get obliterated by another sweeper.

Tl; dr, we did what Poppy told us to do, yay.

Did I mention we still have an Arceus forme left 0_0.

[ssbbm]

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4SDef
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Spikes
- Brave Bird / Toxic / Stealth Rock (if our last mon doesn't have it)

it completely walls the other team while providing insurance for sweepers like sd arceus and dd rayquaza

it also sets up spikes which helps facilitate a sweep against the opposing team

it forces the other team to run a skarmory check, but they also need a kyogre check, and really puts pressure on the other team. palkia will probably have to be their next pick.

[BlueStar99]

I think that we should use this:

Deoxys - A @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Naive
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Sp. Atk/ 252 Spe
-Psycho Boost
-Superpower
-Extremespeed
-Shadow Ball

Standard anti-lead set, wrecks the other team, not much to say. ssmmb's Skarmory sort of doesn't fit with the rest of our team, which is more hyper offense. King John's Reshiram and TheStarRapper's Heatran only work well in sun, and since we have a Kyogre, those are out of the question.

[Furai]

Seems like we have enough nominations, time to start voting!

• Kong John's Specs Reshiram
• TheStarRapper's Air Balloon Heatran
• Mr.lol's Dual Screens Deoxys-S
• ssbbm's Skarmory
• BlueStar99's Anti-Lead Deoxys-A

My vote goes to Mr.lol's Deoxys-S. Taunt can help versus Lugia by slowly wearing it down with Ice Beam while preventing it from Roosting, and stop Hippowdon from recovering, phazing, or getting Stealth Rock up. Dual Screens also seem like a nice support to Team 1, as it is very offensive.

[Namikaze]

I'm putting my vote for ssbbm's Skarmory. Team 1 currently needs a mon that isn't 2hko'ed by Mamoswine and throwing down hazards is always a useful skill. Lugia and Hippowdon can't touch Skarmory except by phazing it out which opens up the possibility of the weather being changed into our favor. That means that Excadrill is going to have a hard time sweeping without its speed boost. Though Excadrill does threaten a 2hko with a +2 rock slide after stealth rock damage, skarmory can roost up and stall out the mole's life orb assuming he doesn't find himself flinched.

[ssbbm]

note: i know i put slashes in the last slash, but the last slash really depends on our last team mate: if we don't have sr, we put sr, if we add a sub pokemon, we use toxic.. etc

also: i'd just like to say that i dislike deoxys in general because it adds too much frality imo; we basically get swept 5-0 with scarf skymin's air slash

[Mr.lol]

note: i know i put slashes in the last slash, but the last slash really depends on our last team mate: if we don't have sr, we put sr, if we add a sub pokemon, we use toxic.. etc

also: i'd just like to say that i dislike deoxys in general because it adds too much frality imo; we basically get swept 5-0 with scarf skymin's air slash

But we are in a scenario were we basically get guranteed screens, and our sweepers need SOMETHING to setup on.

AND your using a wall to setup hazards )_), we lose all momentum we could've possibly gained adding skarm. Besides, Zekrom resists Air Slash and can OHKO back unless it gets 5 flinches or something. If it does get that many flinches, not even skarm will win though... besides, being "pro-active" in pressure is IMO much more important.

Also since we would use max def skarm, were not countering Skymin any better then zekrom would,

Modest Scarf Air Slash vs. Zekrom -> 18.47 - 21.99%
Modest Scarf Air Slash vs. Skarmory -> 25.44 - 30.23%

Zekrom can use the Air Slash as a move to Sub up on )_).
Also Skymin can just pack HP Fire if Skarm is a nuisance, which OHKOes in the sun, and 2HKOes in sand.

I'm not really sure what to vote for really, I'll hold off voting for now... as I'm torn apart between some of the sets...

[ssbbm]

ok i admit skarmory does lose offensive momentum, but what it does is check sd arceus (currently unchecked!), which basically 6-0es our team. with deo-s our team basically HAS to beat the other team in 8 turns or get crushed by a strong counterattack: it's harder to beat the other team in 8 turns when they have a bunch of bulky pokemon that phaze out, making sure that no pokemon will get ridiculously high stat boosts (or even +2/+2!)

also, if the other team leads with sd arceus and we lead with deoxys-s, then we face the problem of prediction: if they use sd on the reflect, they have a pretty good chance of winning, and if they use espeed on the taunt then we are left without screens! deoxys creates tricky predictions AND even loses momentum!

furthermore, skarmory checks stuff like latias (psyshock + dpulse), which completely kills our team atm!

also skarmory does check skymin a bit better in sand (zekrom takes +6% from passive damage, so it's taking 24%-27%, while skarmory takes only 19-24% because of lefties although this is kinda nitpicky :x)

can i change the ev set at this point? i think i need more spdef tbh :x

[Mr.lol]

ok i admit skarmory does lose offensive momentum, but what it does is check sd arceus (currently unchecked!), which basically 6-0es our team. with deo-s our team basically HAS to beat the other team in 8 turns or get crushed by a strong counterattack: it's harder to beat the other team in 8 turns when they have a bunch of bulky pokemon that phaze out, making sure that no pokemon will get ridiculously high stat boosts (or even +2/+2!)

also, if the other team leads with sd arceus and we lead with deoxys-s, then we face the problem of prediction: if they use sd on the reflect, they have a pretty good chance of winning, and if they use espeed on the taunt then we are left without screens! deoxys creates tricky predictions AND even loses momentum!

furthermore, skarmory checks stuff like latias (psyshock + dpulse), which completely kills our team atm!

Just saying an Arceus form could be used to check all this stuff which is still available. If they do use Latias they can run Thunder or Surf (why on earth would they even run Psyshock -_-).

Also you have no idea what does happen if they do pick an Arcues form. They are left without a Ogre check. If Exkiller really annoys them they could run Overheat or Fire Blast and Skarmory's whole purpose is destroyed. If we were to select Skarmory as the last poke I'd have a bit more leeway with that.

The fact that our Arceus form remains undecided prevents them from running something extremely specific, unless we were supposed to pick something that would force it to run something niche (Skarmory). Deoxys-S isn't exactly a complete suicide lead. It can stop Hippo, set up screens and still be healthy enough to Taunt Lugia and setup screens again (although this is a little hard situation to enforce).

The only pokemon that they have that can get ridiculously over the top in offenses is Excadrill, we currently have 3 members of our team that can revenge it.

Placing any offensive Pokemon over a Kyogre check ruins the other team really, so its unlikely we are going to see a very offensive mon pop up. If there is, again we have Arceus.

[ssbbm]

waehoffhsd i had a huge post written up and it got deleted

but, basically, i don't think it's wise to assume that the other team can't change to a more offensive team to beat ours. for example, a combo of scarf shaymin-s and np lo darkrai completely kills our team at the moment (we can't really check the combo with our last pokemon). if we run deoxys-s, then we are asking for the other team to run a fast scarfer; skarmory makes the other team run fast lo pokemon. fast lo pokemon are checkable with a last pokemon - we just need to use scarf palkia / dialga / whatever; fast scarfers are much harder to check.

[Mr.lol]

waehoffhsd i had a huge post written up and it got deleted

but, basically, i don't think it's wise to assume that the other team can't change to a more offensive team to beat ours. for example, a combo of scarf shaymin-s and np lo darkrai completely kills our team at the moment (we can't really check the combo with our last pokemon). if we run deoxys-s, then we are asking for the other team to run a fast scarfer; skarmory makes the other team run fast lo pokemon. fast lo pokemon are checkable with a last pokemon - we just need to use scarf palkia / dialga / whatever; fast scarfers are much harder to check.

They're running a Hippowdon and Lugia 0_0, if they wanted to go HO they better expect momentum loss.

Also remind me how many Scarfers are faster then Deoxys-S? Scarf Skymin, Scarf Mewtwo, Scarf Darkrai, Scarf Arceus (lol), and Scarf Tornadus-T. Notice that not one of them can tank a surf from Kyogre and that Darkrai is the only one that can actually OHKO Deoxys-S.

Your thinking in the wrong way ssbbm, they CAN'T run a faster Scarfer without opening a weakness in their team which is why Deoxys-S is so good, it forces the other team into a lose-lose scenario. This is amplified by the defensive nature of the team, going HO or using a faster scarfer now would mean you have two giant walls in the form of Hippowdon and Lugia losing your momentum. Also their team would hate to lose Hippo or Lugia since it further opens their team to the vulnerability of a Rayquaza or Groudon sweep, meaning a check to Kyogre is probably mandatory.

On a completely random side note, Kyogre can survive a +2 Life Orbed Dark Pulse and OHKO back with Surf. Zekrom can switch into every attack barring Earth Power and Hidden Power Ice. Rayquaza can switch into the former while the latter is setup bait for Kyogre.

[ssbbm]

the thing is, they can play incredibly offensively with lugia and hippowdon (saccing them immediately), and they won't need to worry about us sweeping them with rayquaza or groudon because scarf shaymin-s can already revenge and sweep our team. (also i assumed darkrai was running modest because its not like it needs timid to outspeed our team)

they lose defensive integrity by running a fast scarfer, but this defensive integrity is unneeded because the offensive power they gain by running a fast scarfer is more beneficial than their defensive integrity.

that's just my opinion though, lol.

[Mr.lol]

the thing is, they can play incredibly offensively with lugia and hippowdon (saccing them immediately), and they won't need to worry about us sweeping them with rayquaza or groudon because scarf shaymin-s can already revenge and sweep our team. (also i assumed darkrai was running modest because its not like it needs timid to outspeed our team)

they lose defensive integrity by running a fast scarfer, but this defensive integrity is unneeded because the offensive power they gain by running a fast scarfer is more beneficial than their defensive integrity.

that's just my opinion though, lol.

Great then we have a 6-3 mon advantage (excadril's been practically neutered). Do I need to expound about how great that is? NP LO Darkrai still doesn't OHKO Ogre, and if we really are pestered that much by the fact they have a faster scarfer we can run something like an Extremekiller or Scarf Mewtwo, and we still don't loose defensive synergy. Scarf Mewtwo still pretty much breaks the whole team and Extremekiller can run Band if it needs to end those threats ASAP.

If we were to take the defensive approach a Support Fighting Arc. can patch up problems vs. Darkrai while Scarf Skymin is still handled by our Zekrom. If they choose Mewtwo Support Dark Arc can patch up problems. Also lol even Support Dark Arc. lives +2 Focus Blast.

Point is even by using that stuff we can still patch up our problems, still leaving the other team at a disadvantage if they do choose to make the offensive turn.