np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman - Page 13

Kidogo · Sep 24th, 2012, 12:22:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat tehy

Why are we disregarding skarmory, pk? Plus 2 fire fang 2hitko's skarmory, unless it's lefties and no SR. So all it needs is one missed whirlwind and GG. Bronzong too. Yeah, i know you're talking about the sub set, but i've seen fire fang instead of EQ, not to mention that non-sub garchomp does still exist.

Oh eh well, yeah that's totally a thing and all, my bad haha. I didn't want to want to make Garchomp out to be some god, but yeah those calcs are pretty convincing.

Well there ya go.

Well, one thing that seems a little unfair is the fact that we keep changing the set--skarmory and bronzong are totally solid counters to the standard subSD set, even if garchomp can get around them by utilizing other options. There are few offensive OU pokemon that cannot get around every single one of their counters by running the appropriate set. The thing is though, if garchomp does not run substitute, it loses its ability to scout for misses, and it becomes infinitely easier to revenge-kill. If it doesn't have SD, all defensive checks are guaranteed to beat it. And if it runs fire fang > eq, it's much easier to wall by any defensive check not weak to fire--slowbro comes to mind, not to mention heatran. I get your point though, I just think that a counter can still be such even if there exists a set it loses to.

And PK, no offense taken in any way :)

tehy · Sep 24th, 2012, 1:52:32 AM

Slowbro can wall a pokemon using a base 180 move, but not one using a base 150 move? i guess you're saying "oh dragon claw", but not that easier to wall. As for heatran, just dragon claw/outrage it in the face until it dies, it's not hard. Bulkytran can't do much back and balloontran can't take repeated dragon attacks. I don't even thing bulkytran can, especially after a second SD, which chomp is probably getting.

MaxKhoon · Sep 24th, 2012, 10:07:50 AM

I don't understand why people still arguing, just ban sand veil like they ban double team.

Garchomp is broken with sand veil and Cactune is not? what is this?
Then they should allowed all the weak pokemon - NU to be able to use double team because they are not broken, agreed? Well they do not, and instead, DT, bright powder and the like are all BANNED.

Ergo, just BAN all the evasion enhancement stuffs.

End of story.

BKC · Sep 24th, 2012, 1:31:20 PM

Just wanted to post saying that I've been using Bronzong ever since the Rough Skin Garchomp test and it's excellent, easily my favourite mon in both that metagame and this one. It counters/checks so many threats like Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, both Landorus formes, Gliscor, and Kyurem, while being great switch into Draco Meteors. It can Stealth Rock, it can lure in annoying waters and cripple them with Toxic, and it can even run Protect in a SpDef Heatran-esque manner, scouting the intentions of choice mons like Scarf Genesect and just being really useful in general to rack up Leftovers recover and/or residual damage on the opponent's mon. Btw for the few people using Zong that don't run HP Ice and a decent amount of SpAtk investment...do so. It's part of what makes Zong so great at taking on Garchomp [and by extension Gliscor/Landorus].

tl;dr -- use Bronzong

Wizarus · Sep 24th, 2012, 1:48:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat BKC

Just wanted to post saying that I've been using Bronzong ever since the Rough Skin Garchomp test and it's excellent, easily my favourite mon in both that metagame and this one. It counters/checks so many threats like Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, both Landorus formes, Gliscor, and Kyurem, while being great switch into Draco Meteors. It can Stealth Rock, it can lure in annoying waters and cripple them with Toxic, and it can even run Protect in a SpDef Heatran-esque manner, scouting the intentions of choice mons like Scarf Genesect and just being really useful in general to rack up Leftovers recover and/or residual damage on the opponent's mon. Btw for the few people using Zong that don't run HP Ice and a decent amount of SpAtk investment...do so. It's part of what makes Zong so great at taking on Garchomp [and by extension Gliscor/Landorus].

tl;dr -- use Bronzong

Isn't Bronzong 2HKOd by +2 Fire Fang? It can't afford to miss HP Ice.

bro fist · Sep 24th, 2012, 2:19:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

Isn't Bronzong 2HKOd by +2 Fire Fang? It can't afford to miss HP Ice.

That same case scenario can be said for many of garchomp's defensive checks though. Most if these bar skarmory just need to get enough damage on chomp for something else to come in and finish it off. Bronzong is great at taking on garchomp in the sense that it can come in basically without fear into either of its stab moves or even an unboosted fire move.

Joeyboy · Sep 24th, 2012, 2:30:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat BKC

Just wanted to post saying that I've been using Bronzong ever since the Rough Skin Garchomp test and it's excellent, easily my favourite mon in both that metagame and this one. It counters/checks so many threats like Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, both Landorus formes, Gliscor, and Kyurem, while being great switch into Draco Meteors. It can Stealth Rock, it can lure in annoying waters and cripple them with Toxic, and it can even run Protect in a SpDef Heatran-esque manner, scouting the intentions of choice mons like Scarf Genesect and just being really useful in general to rack up Leftovers recover and/or residual damage on the opponent's mon. Btw for the few people using Zong that don't run HP Ice and a decent amount of SpAtk investment...do so. It's part of what makes Zong so great at taking on Garchomp [and by extension Gliscor/Landorus].

tl;dr -- use Bronzong

Yay! Seriously Bronzong is so clutch in the meta and yes while it is 2HKO'd by +2 Garchomp's Fire Fang I can say I haven't seen a single Fire Fang Garchomp with SD. Also how much SpAtk are you running on your Bronzong BKC?

Gavin313 · Sep 24th, 2012, 3:19:35 PM

This may be a bit off-topic, but will Showdown's extended downtime lead to a similar extension of the test-ending date of September 27th? We've basically missed out on two days of battling so far, with no idea as to when Showdown will be back up.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 24th, 2012, 5:23:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat BKC

Just wanted to post saying that I've been using Bronzong ever since the Rough Skin Garchomp test and it's excellent, easily my favourite mon in both that metagame and this one. It counters/checks so many threats like Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, both Landorus formes, Gliscor, and Kyurem, while being great switch into Draco Meteors. It can Stealth Rock, it can lure in annoying waters and cripple them with Toxic, and it can even run Protect in a SpDef Heatran-esque manner, scouting the intentions of choice mons like Scarf Genesect and just being really useful in general to rack up Leftovers recover and/or residual damage on the opponent's mon. Btw for the few people using Zong that don't run HP Ice and a decent amount of SpAtk investment...do so. It's part of what makes Zong so great at taking on Garchomp [and by extension Gliscor/Landorus].

tl;dr -- use Bronzong

I'd listen to this guy, he knows whats up

the set in question is SR / Protect / Toxic / HP Ice. It just makes it a really effective tank. (it's one of the very best checks to bulky cm latias w/o sub, which always finds the time to sweep me) I fell in love with that set after BKC told me about it.

Danger Mouse · Sep 24th, 2012, 6:15:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gavin313

This may be a bit off-topic, but will Showdown's extended downtime lead to a similar extension of the test-ending date of September 27th? We've basically missed out on two days of battling so far, with no idea as to when Showdown will be back up.

I was wondering this myself. I was really close to making voting requirements before PS! went down, so I (and I'm sure others who are in the same boat) would certainly appreciate an extension to make up for lost time.

alexwolf · Sep 25th, 2012, 2:48:01 AM

Yeah BKC Bronzong is excellent in this meta, but i have one small correction to make. Bronzong cannot check or counter SubRoost Kyurem, the most common variant, without Gyro Ball, and even if he has it, he also needs Toxic to have a chance of beating Kyurem (use Toxic when he uses Roost).

Btw how much SpA are you using on your Bronzong?

**Pocket** · Sep 25th, 2012, 3:18:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Gavin313

This may be a bit off-topic, but will Showdown's extended downtime lead to a similar extension of the test-ending date of September 27th? We've basically missed out on two days of battling so far, with no idea as to when Showdown will be back up.

Yes, some sort of extension is being planned out, so wait for such announcement in the near future.

BKC · Sep 25th, 2012, 3:28:26 AM

I just PP stall SubRoost Kyurem by spamming SR. Its attack moves are Earth Power and Blizzard; Zong is immune to the former and the latter not only has a mere 8 PP, but it's also barely doing any damage to me, while I can always Protect if I really need some health back, so all Kyurem's really going to do in that situation is waste its own attacking PP. Gyro Ball isn't that great a solution for it anyways since it only has 4 PP thanks to Pressure.

the set I've been using

PenguinX · Sep 25th, 2012, 7:25:00 AM

"I beat Kyurem by spamming SR"
> set doesnt have sr

Also generally Kyurem won't be spamming Blizzard against you unless Hail is up, meaning you don't get recovery from Leftovers at all.

Bronzong is really good though. I was using it during the Rough Skin test and had pretty much no problems with Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Landorus and Mamoswine, who seem to be the biggest offensive threats at the moment. I was just using the standard Stealth Rock / Earthquake / Gyro Ball / Hidden Power [Ice] to try and check as much stuff as possible, since I barely ended up using Toxic and Protect was kinda useless since I was using it on Hail.

edit: yeah only just noticed, you really should be running physically defensive imo

Jcpdragonx · Sep 25th, 2012, 7:56:45 AM

Sand Veil is uncompetitive. So are Crits, 10% status, 30% sometimes and what not. The swift swim ban is necessary. The only unique ban which should be considered in the near future is Shadow Tag.

shrang · Sep 25th, 2012, 8:05:20 AM

Just saying, that Bronzong set gets 2HKOed by +2 Outrage from Garchomp and HP Ice isn't doing anywhere near enough to OHKO Garchomp (56.02% - 66.11%). If Garchomp is using Yache Berry (which I reckon is the best item for Rough Skin Chomp at the moment), Bronzong is doing piss to Garchomp.

LucaroarkZ · Sep 25th, 2012, 10:32:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jcpdragonx

Sand Veil is uncompetitive. So are Crits, 10% status, 30% sometimes and what not. The swift swim ban is necessary. The only unique ban which should be considered in the near future is Shadow Tag.

I don't really like this reasoning. The way I see it, critical hits are actually not uncompetitive. First off, you need to go for an attack to have a chance to get a critical hit. Second, both sides have an equal chance of getting them, barring moves such as Night Slash and certain Abilities/Items (Razor Claw, Super Luck, etc.), all of which are uncommon anyway (and you're likely to lose the benefits of a better ability/item anyway, for example, why would you use Razor Claw over Life Orb?). 10%/30% status is debatable, but you still have to go for the move to get a chance to afflict these status conditions. Sand Veil? Sand just has to be up. That's all.

Tabuu · Sep 25th, 2012, 10:54:18 PM

I think the best way to deal with this is either:
1.) BAN SAND VEIL
This will make things just so easy. Just get rid of it. Of course poor cacturne and gliscor might be hurt a bit but too bee honest, sand veil, at the end of the day is uncompetitive. it honestly falls in the evasion clause. this sand veil needs to go.
2.) BAN CHOMP+SV
This could work too, but this would then allow all of these people to ask for blaziken in ou and everything.

***Iconic**** · Sep 26th, 2012, 12:32:53 AM

Unfortunately, the Suspect Ladder had to be reset due to the recent DDoS attack, as the ladder was deemed unsalvageable by Zarel. We're working quickly on trying to find a solution to this problem. Hang tight!

***Iconic**** · Sep 28th, 2012, 12:30:58 AM

We've decided to extend the deadline by a week, meaning this round will end on October 5th at 11:59 pm EST. Since all the ratings were unfortunately reset, the requirements to vote have been lowered. These new requirements will be a rating of 1900 and a deviation of 65 or below. Keep in mind these requirements are subject to change depending how the new rating system works out. Anyone who has already qualified by sending us a screenshot of their 1900 +/- 50 rating does not need to qualify again. I apologize to anyone who was really close to meeting the requirements right before Pokemon Showdown was attacked, but there's not much we can really do. I blame Aldaron.

Now get back to your Pokemon chit chat!

Melee Mewtwo · Sep 28th, 2012, 10:58:46 AM

Has anybody tried Salac Chomp yet?

GatoDelFuego · Sep 28th, 2012, 11:03:39 AM

I don't think it would wind up being effective: Teams I see now have something like 5 scarfers + cloyster/Landorus-T. As surprising as it is, garchomp is really terrible in this meta. I would actually steer more towards a bulky wallbreaking set at this point, as everything is designed to outrun chomp, not take hits from him.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 28th, 2012, 11:14:22 AM

oh come on, let's not exaggerate, Garchomp is still a kickass Pokemon. Garchomp's ability to avoid ohkoes on "non-SE STAB moves" is fucking incredible (one of the few offensive Pokemon in the game that can avoid the OHKO from +2 Mach Punch) so it gets mad respect from me.

Even though the metagame is tailored against him, but he's still a mid/high tier threat in my eyes. I've been mostly using Choice Band Garchomp in the rain, and Sub SD. I stopped using Scarf chomp. I mean with Scarf Genesect, is there really any point to using other Scarf Pokemon? Haha. I'd probably use a Scarf chomp on a non-scarf Genesect, no mess some fools up.

note: i'm talking about non-sv garchomp

nyczxjay · Sep 28th, 2012, 11:28:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Has anybody tried Salac Chomp yet?

SubSalac Chomp is a beast lategame. By far its most threatening set in the Sand with SV and proper team support at removing Skarm and Bronzong IMO. After trying out Sub SD, Yache, Scarf, and SubSalac, I've had the most success with SubSalac and it's the set I used on the team I used to meet the voting requirements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Iconic

Anyone who has already qualified by sending us a screenshot of their 1900 +/- 50 rating does not need to qualify again.

Phew, I'm so glad I sent my screenshot in the day before the attack. If I had to ladder up again I would've probably not even bothered... Thanks Iconic! :)

tehy · Sep 28th, 2012, 11:51:07 AM

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to test a pokemon in such an environment? Everyone keeps saying that the metagame is tailored against him. If in ubers, everyone knew that the other team would be carrying a kyogre, then they'd run gastrodon and GG. Now, garchomp isn't walled quite so hard, but when you know that garchomp's going to be there so much more often than normal, then it costs you much less to carry a less-useful pokemon just for him (COUGH*WEAVILE*COUGH)

Sep 24th, 2012, 3:19:35 PM	#308
Gavin313 Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Omaha, NE	This may be a bit off-topic, but will Showdown's extended downtime lead to a similar extension of the test-ending date of September 27th? We've basically missed out on two days of battling so far, with no idea as to when Showdown will be back up. __________________ All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental.

Sep 25th, 2012, 2:48:01 AM	#311
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,633 Greece	Yeah BKC Bronzong is excellent in this meta, but i have one small correction to make. Bronzong cannot check or counter SubRoost Kyurem, the most common variant, without Gyro Ball, and even if he has it, he also needs Toxic to have a chance of beating Kyurem (use Toxic when he uses Roost). Btw how much SpA are you using on your Bronzong? __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Sep 25th, 2012, 3:28:26 AM	#313
BKC bringer of torture Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,235 Prague	I just PP stall SubRoost Kyurem by spamming SR. Its attack moves are Earth Power and Blizzard; Zong is immune to the former and the latter not only has a mere 8 PP, but it's also barely doing any damage to me, while I can always Protect if I really need some health back, so all Kyurem's really going to do in that situation is waste its own attacking PP. Gyro Ball isn't that great a solution for it anyways since it only has 4 PP thanks to Pressure. the set I've been using Bronzong @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 248 HP / 28 Def / 24 SAtk / 208 SDef Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd) - Earthquake - Hidden Power [Ice] - Protect - Toxic

Sep 25th, 2012, 7:25:00 AM	#314
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 419	"I beat Kyurem by spamming SR" > set doesnt have sr Also generally Kyurem won't be spamming Blizzard against you unless Hail is up, meaning you don't get recovery from Leftovers at all. Bronzong is really good though. I was using it during the Rough Skin test and had pretty much no problems with Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Landorus and Mamoswine, who seem to be the biggest offensive threats at the moment. I was just using the standard Stealth Rock / Earthquake / Gyro Ball / Hidden Power [Ice] to try and check as much stuff as possible, since I barely ended up using Toxic and Protect was kinda useless since I was using it on Hail. edit: yeah only just noticed, you really should be running physically defensive imo __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif Last edited by PenguinX; Sep 25th, 2012 at 8:17:16 AM.

Sep 25th, 2012, 7:56:45 AM	#315
Jcpdragonx Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 309 Australia	Sand Veil is uncompetitive. So are Crits, 10% status, 30% sometimes and what not. The swift swim ban is necessary. The only unique ban which should be considered in the near future is Shadow Tag. __________________

Sep 24th, 2012, 1:52:32 AM	#302
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,158	Slowbro can wall a pokemon using a base 180 move, but not one using a base 150 move? i guess you're saying "oh dragon claw", but not that easier to wall. As for heatran, just dragon claw/outrage it in the face until it dies, it's not hard. Bulkytran can't do much back and balloontran can't take repeated dragon attacks. I don't even thing bulkytran can, especially after a second SD, which chomp is probably getting.

Sep 24th, 2012, 10:07:50 AM	#303
MaxKhoon Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6	I don't understand why people still arguing, just ban sand veil like they ban double team. Garchomp is broken with sand veil and Cactune is not? what is this? Then they should allowed all the weak pokemon - NU to be able to use double team because they are not broken, agreed? Well they do not, and instead, DT, bright powder and the like are all BANNED. Ergo, just BAN all the evasion enhancement stuffs. End of story.

Sep 24th, 2012, 1:31:20 PM	#304
BKC bringer of torture Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,235 Prague	Just wanted to post saying that I've been using Bronzong ever since the Rough Skin Garchomp test and it's excellent, easily my favourite mon in both that metagame and this one. It counters/checks so many threats like Garchomp, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, both Landorus formes, Gliscor, and Kyurem, while being great switch into Draco Meteors. It can Stealth Rock, it can lure in annoying waters and cripple them with Toxic, and it can even run Protect in a SpDef Heatran-esque manner, scouting the intentions of choice mons like Scarf Genesect and just being really useful in general to rack up Leftovers recover and/or residual damage on the opponent's mon. Btw for the few people using Zong that don't run HP Ice and a decent amount of SpAtk investment...do so. It's part of what makes Zong so great at taking on Garchomp [and by extension Gliscor/Landorus]. tl;dr -- use Bronzong

Sep 25th, 2012, 10:54:18 PM	#318
Tabuu Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 280 East Blue	I think the best way to deal with this is either: 1.) BAN SAND VEIL This will make things just so easy. Just get rid of it. Of course poor cacturne and gliscor might be hurt a bit but too bee honest, sand veil, at the end of the day is uncompetitive. it honestly falls in the evasion clause. this sand veil needs to go. 2.) BAN CHOMP+SV This could work too, but this would then allow all of these people to ask for blaziken in ou and everything.

Sep 26th, 2012, 12:32:53 AM	#319
*Iconic Super Moderator** Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,784 Canadaland Mentor	Unfortunately, the Suspect Ladder had to be reset due to the recent DDoS attack, as the ladder was deemed unsalvageable by Zarel. We're working quickly on trying to find a solution to this problem. Hang tight! __________________ ◠‿◠

Sep 28th, 2012, 12:30:58 AM	#320
*Iconic Super Moderator** Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,784 Canadaland Mentor	We've decided to extend the deadline by a week, meaning this round will end on October 5th at 11:59 pm EST. Since all the ratings were unfortunately reset, the requirements to vote have been lowered. These new requirements will be a rating of 1900 and a deviation of 65 or below. Keep in mind these requirements are subject to change depending how the new rating system works out. Anyone who has already qualified by sending us a screenshot of their 1900 +/- 50 rating does not need to qualify again. I apologize to anyone who was really close to meeting the requirements right before Pokemon Showdown was attacked, but there's not much we can really do. I blame Aldaron. Now get back to your Pokemon chit chat! __________________ ◠‿◠

Sep 28th, 2012, 11:03:39 AM	#322
GatoDelFuego U HAVIN A FOKIN GIGGLE THER M8 ILL BASH YE HEAD IN I SWEAR ON ME MUM Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,082 The University of Alabama Mentor	I don't think it would wind up being effective: Teams I see now have something like 5 scarfers + cloyster/Landorus-T. As surprising as it is, garchomp is really terrible in this meta. I would actually steer more towards a bulky wallbreaking set at this point, as everything is designed to outrun chomp, not take hits from him. __________________ Part of the GP team, message me for a check! Sharpen your skills as a GP checker in the GRAMMAR DOJO!

Sep 28th, 2012, 11:14:22 AM	#323
PK Gaming Quiet Thunder God Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,527 Izanagi	oh come on, let's not exaggerate, Garchomp is still a kickass Pokemon. Garchomp's ability to avoid ohkoes on "non-SE STAB moves" is fucking incredible (one of the few offensive Pokemon in the game that can avoid the OHKO from +2 Mach Punch) so it gets mad respect from me. Even though the metagame is tailored against him, but he's still a mid/high tier threat in my eyes. I've been mostly using Choice Band Garchomp in the rain, and Sub SD. I stopped using Scarf chomp. I mean with Scarf Genesect, is there really any point to using other Scarf Pokemon? Haha. I'd probably use a Scarf chomp on a non-scarf Genesect, no mess some fools up. note: i'm talking about non-sv garchomp __________________

Sep 28th, 2012, 11:51:07 AM	#325
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,158	Isn't it kind of ridiculous to test a pokemon in such an environment? Everyone keeps saying that the metagame is tailored against him. If in ubers, everyone knew that the other team would be carrying a kyogre, then they'd run gastrodon and GG. Now, garchomp isn't walled quite so hard, but when you know that garchomp's going to be there so much more often than normal, then it costs you much less to carry a less-useful pokemon just for him (COUGHWEAVILECOUGH)