CAP 4 - Part 4 - Tertiary Ability Discussion

[bugmaniacbob]

I s'pose I should post

Right so this argument has been bandied back and forth so many times that it is now almost painful. I'll just condense my thoughts into bullet points:

• No Flare Boost / Toxic Boost / Guts / Quick Feet / etc.
• No Marvel Scale.
• No custom abilities (seriously what the heck guys).
• NCA and NTA are just going to be one single option, that is to say that if you're voting for one, you're voting for both. What I mean by that is that NCA will be the option on the slate, and if it wins, we'll have a flavour ability stage after the Art Polls conclude, at which point NTA will be an option.
• To that end, stop suggesting pure flavour abilities. That is really very annoying indeed.

So anyway here's the slate thus far

No Guard
No Competitive Ability

No Guard I really don't feel like repeating the arguments for (but to do it anyway, it's a lovely ability with a controllable side-effect which is unique in its applications so will almost always command a niche in the Pokemon's usage rather than the whole), and NCA because we don't necessarily *need* a third ability... but it would be nice for us to push the boundaries, as 'twere.

Having said that, there are a few other abilities I am considering. Moxie I have slated twice before, and while not necessarily favouring it now as much as I did then, it's still a good choice, though now I question whether it may be a bad idea to pick another ability that grievously influences the stats, now that we have two abilities. Trace is bland and uninteresting but otherwise fine, albeit somewhat limited in its applications. Now, what GR's Cousin said about defensive abilities interested me, even though I don't agree with any of those he suggested. However, I have been considering Multiscale a bit more thoroughly since last time, and all things considered, it may be a good shot. Naturally it is difficult to discuss without poll-jumping; as my interpretation of the concept excluded /reliable/ recovery as an option, Multiscale loses a great deal of its efficacy, but becomes a far more risky ability. I've actually warmed to the idea quite a bit, but I'd like to see some more discussion on it, and the other two abilities given here.

Ugh this post is really lazily written now that I look over it - but it should give you an idea of what I'm thinking at the moment. I intend to close this thread sooner than the others - so get your ideas in sharpish.

EDIT: Whoops forgot something

Originally Posted by Fat pekka1995

I'm just gonna have to ask someone what abilities that are considered "Non Competitive abilities cause I know that abilities like honey gather and illumiinate belongs to those but does abilities like Steadfast which overall isn't too useful and mummy which has its uses but isn't that "good"

Well it all sort of depends on how I'm feeling when I'm making the slate, assuming NCA wins the next poll. Generally I will be favouring those abilities with no or negative competitive influence, but I might be persuaded to slate those with only negligible competitive influence regarding the Pokemon in question, if the flavour reasoning is adequate.

EDIT2: Whoops forgot something else

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

No Tertiary Ability or No Competitive Ability

That is all. If this is not the result, I will be very disappointed. If it's not slated, I might explode. *coughbugcough*
I already wanted Weak Armor to be all. Illusion was the lesser of the evils presented. Nothing more. Please.

This reasoning has convinced me. I've decided to take No Competitive Ability off the slate - we really need a tertiary ability to function well. kidding

[jagged_angel]

In case anyone is about to post something irate, BMB is joking about the only thing on the slate being No Guard!

Seriously though BMB, I really wish you'd include Moxie in the slate. Just like No Guard has been slated three times and lost, so has Moxie. There are a lot of supporters for Moxie and a lot of people (like myself) who abhor No Guard. If people believe a third Ability would be useful but don't want to vote for No Guard, shouldn't they have something else to vote for?

I also wish you'd slate Flare Boost, as a lot of people are supporting it in this thread and your main stated dislike of it was related to it possibly becoming a glass cannon (your words not mine):

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

As for Flare Boost / Toxic Boost / Guts / and all the rest, I dislike them as well. I said I didn't want this CAP to be the sort of die-quickly glass cannon that a lot of people were expecting from this concept, and as such, I feel it is a bad idea to compound weakness to every passive damage form ever with continuously losing HP every turn, no matter how bulky this Pokemon may be. So, I do not favour either of them.

I really think Deck Knight provided a convincing argument as to why Flare Boost does not automatically make a pokemon die quickly. I could add on my own reasons for why I think it could still have longevity (recovery moves, stat spread, Psycho Shift, Rest, spinners) but I think Deck is more convincing:

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

I really believe we're being a bit too tight-assed here about having a "glass cannon ability."

Does anyone believe Conkeldurr is a glass cannon? After all, its Guts Set relies on it using a status orb. The fundamentals of the set are that you use the status orb to prevent an even nastier status from befalling you, and then you use the moves on the set (in Conkeldurr's case Drain Punch) to keep yourself healthy or sweep over a limited time.

Now the obvious follow-up is that Conkeldurr isn't weak to Stealth Rock. But Conkeldurr is vulnerable to Spikes and can't sufficiently harm Skarmory unless it runs Thunderpunch or Fire Punch, a suboptimal move because it's not powerful enough as a general attack to justify use over Mach Punch, Payback, or Facade.

We've already established an element of risk with CAP4's type in that it becomes less valuable with SR on the field. So does its brethren, Volcarona. Now, Volcarona doesn't have a Status Orb set, and yet it survives with a 50% SR weak. Is Volcarona a glass cannon? Because SR + Flame Orb x2 (25 + 12 + 12 = 49) on CAP4 does less damage to it than SR itself does to Volcarona (50). Both Pokemon are much more viable if you can get SR off the field, and while they don't like Spikes, are less affected by it.

So the entire notion that Flare Boost shunts CAP4 into glass cannon status is ridiculous, and I honestly believe we're being way too tightly would about either of these abilities. We chose a CAP project based around a high-risk concept. The same people getting apoplectic about Weak Armor's Defense Drop being shitty are the same people that SPAM Close Combat without worrying about it, because the Defense Drop never matters until you take a hit. Weak Armor facilitates the not taking of an additional hit.

What Flare Boost brings is the ability to slaughter priority attackers in the right situation, because without fail priority attacks are physical, (Vacuum Wave is irrelevant based on CAP4's typing alone) and Burn absolutely destroys them. I know this requires assumptions of attacks down the road, but we already have built-in assumptions of set-up sweeper which I don't think are entirely valid or invalid, since Weak Armor lets us use Choice Sets in the hopes of picking up a speed increase that will facilitate the Choice Sweep.

I believe there is way too much pigeonholing abilities because they lend "too comfortably" to one playstyle or another, in the same exhortation to "think outside the box." Glass cannonry is determined primarily by stats (See Conkeldurr and Volcarona examples above), and the TL has control over that slate, and thus if you want to mandate no defenses BELOW a certain BSR level, you can certainly do so. Would that also be exercising a large degree of control? Yes, but that vicegrip is also showing up in this thread right now.

[acausetolead]

Trace is nice because it slows a few Pokes that would have an easier time coming in on CAP4, thus widening the idea of "no one true counter, but many checks". Heatran and Thunderus-T have their common STABs made null and void, while Tracing Tornadus-T's Regenerator would heal off Stealth Rock damage when we want to get out of there. It also fits thematically with Illusion, in that it shows adaptability and is also situationally useful.

Multiscale could be cool, but almost constantly would be chosen over the other two abilities. You'd have more reason to keep Stealth Rocks off the field than Illusion, especially if we're not planning reliable recovery. And an intact Multiscale almost always guarantees you a boost of some kind. It would deter us from slotting boosts like Quiver Dance and Agility in CAP4s movepool. You benefit more in positive situations with Multiscale than you would both Illusion and Weak Armour, making these abilities only rarely useful. Sure, you could still benefit from a -1 Def, +1 Spd on a smart switch, or still bluff an Illusion if you are disguised as an appropriate Pokemon, but both are hardly as useful as being able to come in on almost any attack and survive.

Though, I do see some reasons to use it as well. If it really was a one off Multiscale, having CAP4 have no recovery other than Rest, I could see places where it'd be more risky to run it over Illusion or Weak Armour, i.e. coming in on a check/counter while Scarfed, surviving the hit, and getting the jump. It's both risky because its one-off, and both STABs are easily resisted, making prediction harder. Wish support could let you try again, but is also risky.

I dunno if it works this way, but if we made Multiscale the tertiary ability, have CAP4 be Male Only in Dream World, and limit boosting moves to egg moves, we'd have good reason to choose Weak Armour and Illusion over it. This might be encroaching on moveset discussion, and if so I'll drop it and discuss Multiscale on its own.

[Korski]

I think choosing NCA here at this stage would be a huge waste (I will not consider NTA because even a flavor Ability would be desirable over nothing at all; I implore BMB to not even slate it). Neither of our chosen Abilities are so powerful as to worsen the other, and even the psychology of CAP running either set (Team Preview) is not enough to overwhelm the metagame, at least not at this stage. I think Weak Armor and Illusion are a unique combination because they don't step on each others' toes in terms of teambuilding and individual movesets. Our third Ability can do just the same so long as it avoids pre-determining stats or attacks, which isn't hard with the Abilities that have been being discussed since the very beginning.

Where Weak Armor trades "getting hit once" for "never getting hit again," as I said in the previous thread, Illusion trades "any advantage besides the element of surprise (including an automatic Speed boost from physical damage)" for "the element of surprise." Now, just as the goals of our second Ability reference the primary Ability without covering any of the same ground strategically, so should our third competitive Ability reference the former two in the same way, so we can all be happy.

In that vein, I will admit that No Guard is becoming more and more appealing at this stage, as I can now be sure that the potentially nominal impact of No Guard on CAP's effectiveness is guaranteed to come at the expense of both the sweeping potential of Weak Armor and the surprise value of Illusion. No Guard CAP would be the one most impacted by the stresses of its typing, but also the most consistent, as it requires nothing from the opponent in order to be effective for the user (Weak Armor requires physical attacks that aren't U-turn and Illusion requires the opponent to actually be fooled). At the expense of always getting hit by WoW and Fire Blast and Scarf Stone Edge and SUN HURRICANE, CAP could have a manipulative movepool including things like Thunder/Blizzard/Focus Blast (yes, please), WoW itself, Glare maybe, and perhaps even Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, and/or Stone Edge (so probably not Zap Cannon, Inferno, or DynamicPunch, you naysayers). No Guard CAP would most likely be the only build to utilize these high-powered moves effectively outside of weather, a tempting prospect if one is not keen on dealing with unwanted Def drops or manufacturing complicated Illusions for some inconsistent advantage. The Risk/Reward element of No Guard is going to be relatively unchanged from the pros and cons of CAP's typing on individual sets, I'll admit, but in this new discussion where the sacrifices now include not running either Weak Armor or Illusion, this Ability seems to fit right in with the criteria I outlined for myself and explained in the previous paragraph.

Another route we can take is to use our third Ability to pursue more popular gimmicky options; in my case I prefer Flare Boost because of how well it may impact Quiver Dance sets or generic Special Attacking builds that focus on only a few turns of late-game crushing and/or status absorbing. Adding to this strategy, Psycho Shift and, to a greater extent, Trick, both fairly easy to fit into a Psychic-type movepool, can really turn the tide on CB Scizor, Scarf Terrakion, and Tyranitar. They may even reconsider staying in for the KO after they switch in and see the Flame Orb activate, giving CAP a turn to consider attacking or boosting. With Weak Armor and Illusion as the primary Abilities, Flare Boost could prove to be either the gimmick that it is, in which case it's harmless to choose it, or a legitimate sweeper whose strategy fits with our concept almost perfectly, in which case it's a success. I see no problems here either.

tl;dr

No Guard
Flare Boost
No Tertiary Ability

EDIT: Fine No Guard

[srk1214]

Still supporting NCA/NTA though. Especially against the shove-it-in-our-face slating of No Guard. I'd honestly be fine voting for things like Marvel Scale or Flare Boost. I don't find them particularly worrisome for the metagame and I suppose they are somewhat interesting. But if No Guard is the only other option... yeah...

[capefeather]

Originally Posted by Fat bugmaniacbob

Naturally it is difficult to discuss without poll-jumping; as my interpretation of the concept excluded /reliable/ recovery as an option, Multiscale loses a great deal of its efficacy, but becomes a far more risky ability.

This, I'd say, is the deciding factor of the kinds of build(s) that bugmaniacbob is envisioning, and thus the kinds of abilities that he will slate. In the absence of reliable recovery moves and draining moves, Multiscale makes a lot of sense, and status-activated abilities don't. This is a mindset that contrasts with those of adamant supporters of status-activated abilities. And, well, it is perfectly within the privileges of the Topic Leader to drive the project toward one vision, even when other good visions exist. I suppose one could argue that he shouldn't, but this is still ultimately his prerogative.

[jas61292]

Ok, so while I know I have already done it in the previous two discussions, and I know it will get slated regardless of what I say, but with all the posts of support for it, I feel a need to once again point out why I believe No Guard would be a bad idea for this CAP. First of all, as I tried to allude to in my first post in this thread, I cannot see any way that No Guard fits in with the other two abilities that we have already chosen. The relationship between Weak Armor and Illusion is interesting because it contrasts late game strategies with early game ones. While both abilities could run nearly identical sets, the way they play would contrast greatly, show two very different sides of risk. No Guard simply does not pair well with these abilities. If a Pokemon has the moves to abuse with No Guard, it will use them. The extra power they provide is more than enough to make it worth the ability slot on offensive Pokemon. And as I have always said, the risk in no guard is really negligible in comparison. It would outclass Weak Armor, and likely Illusion, unless we don't give it a good selection of moves to choose from. At the same time, if we don't give it the moves to use it, it will be a deadweight ability that would have been better off left to flavor. However, in no circumstance will it form any kind of interesting relationship with the other abilities like the one that already exists.

I never liked No Guard as an ability for this, but in the past I at least understood the reasoning for it. Putting it on now just seems like trying to tack on something we wanted in the past simply because it wasn't already chosen. With the abilities that we have already chosen, I fail to see how it makes any sense at all.

With that said, I would like to address one ability that was brought up that I do think would be interesting: Multiscale. While originally, I saw this and thought that it was silly suggestion of an overly powerful ability, if, like bmb suggests, we get it but without any reliable recovery, it becomes risky simply by having the potential to be a complete waste compared to the other two that we have chosen. Additionally, if any ability is chosen, I like Multiscale if only because it is the closest thing I can think of to a "mid-game ability" to contrast with the early and late game strategies that we already established with the first two abilities. Use it too early and you may not be able to take advantage of what it provides, but wait too late and it might be impossible to ever take advantage of, especially with the SR weakness.

While I personally still prefer NCA, as I think the relationship we have is an interesting study by itself, this would still be a solid choice in my mind.

[Heroes and Cons]

Justified. (And yes, I'm shamelessly copypasting the exact same post I made back in the Secondary Ability discussion.)

If this Pokemon has the physical bulk to take advantage of Weak Armour, then it would also be possible for it to take a physical Dark attack (such as Pursuit on a predicted switch) to boost its power. The big risk is, of course, its weakness to Dark, but as bulky psychics such as Slowbro and Reuniclus have proven, taking a type-advantageous attack doesn't necessarily mean a KO. Assuming this Pokemon is physically offensive, this could certainly be used effectively as long as it has the bulk it needs to utilise the boost.

Either this, or No Competitive Ability, simply because I think 2 is enough for this CAP.

Originally Posted by Fat jagged_angel

If people believe a third Ability would be useful but don't want to vote for No Guard, shouldn't they have something else to vote for?

Only if somebody actually makes a good argument for something else. If there are no good arguments made for anything else, then no, they should not have something else to vote for. You overlook that the reason that No Guard is slated while Moxie is not, despite both having been slated both previous times, is that No Guard now forms compelling dualities with both current abilities, with Weak Armor in terms of their relationship in trading bulkiness for sweepiness and with Illusion in terms of their opposite approaches to examining prediction-based risk. For Moxie or anything else to be slated, it must be shown to have a compelling relationship with both abilities, and nobody that I have seen has tried to make any case for Moxie's relationship with Illusion. If you want Moxie to be slated, then make the case for that relationship. That simple fact that some people want a tertiary ability but for whatever random reason "abhor" No Guard is simply not sufficient.

Right now, I think that bmb's slate look exactly as it should, though I would be interested to hear better arguments for Multi-Scale, specifically with regards to its relationship to both of our existing abilities.

[Pokethan]

I think that Multiscale creates a good dynamic with the other two abilities we have slated because while Weak Armor looks to exploit weak hits and resisted hits and Illusion looks to decieve into immunities and basically not take hits at all, Multiscale looks to take advantage of getting hit super effectively which is something not a whole lot of abilities can do to turn the tables in the match and I think that just how good of a middle ground Multiscale brings and how different of a risk it brings it would be an excellent 3rd ability if we decide to have one.

[Zarco]

No Competitive Ability is indiscernible from a "safe option". To play with CAP 4 you should have to go all out with risks (even if they are clear rewards).

[capefeather]

Thinking about it more, I think that Multiscale might be a bad idea. We already have an example of a Multiscale user that does not use recovery to abuse Multiscale to the max: Choice Band Dragonite. For this Pokémon, I don't think I can really say that Multiscale really introduces risk, but rather, it limits the opponent's safe options at any given time, because now Dragonite can switch into just about anything that isn't super effective. Obviously, there's a timing element involved, but overall, it seems to me like Multiscale is pretty much a "switch in almost for free" card that the opponent could take away through Stealth Rock or sandstorm, but otherwise is just a gigantic advantage for the user. It's the kind of ability that's a lot more powerful than it looks.

No Guard is pretty much a preference matter at this point, just as it came down to preference before. I think that Weak Armour and Illusion are more powerful than No Guard detractors give them credit for. Other than that, if you don't agree that there is risk involved in eschewing speed boosts and surprise value for power and/or accuracy (with a catch, too), then I don't know what to tell you. Different people will have different visions and different goals, I suppose.

[ThePhalanx]

I'm not gonna copy and paste jagged_angel's post, but it completely summarizes my feelings about Flare Boost. Enough people are advocating for it to be slated, and Deck Knight brings up some pretty good points. As of now, the only thing slated is No Guard, and I think at least bringing up the possibility of slating it would introduce more discussion about both abilities and bring more diversity to CAP4. If not, then at least bring back my beloved Moxie.

Also, I think this sums up my feelings about Multiscale, Marvel Scale and other defensive abilities (that have been proposed up to now):

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

Thinking about it more, I think that Multiscale might be a bad idea. We already have an example of a Multiscale user that does not use recovery to abuse Multiscale to the max: Choice Band Dragonite. For this Pokémon, I don't think I can really say that Multiscale really introduces risk, but rather, it limits the opponent's safe options at any given time, because now Dragonite can switch into just about anything that isn't super effective. Obviously, there's a timing element involved, but overall, it seems to me like Multiscale is pretty much a "switch in almost for free" card that the opponent could take away through Stealth Rock or sandstorm, but otherwise is just a gigantic advantage for the user. It's the kind of ability that's a lot more powerful than it looks.

[jc104]

While I wouldn't mind having a third ability for this CAP, I would really prefer it to be something generally worse than the other two abilities; something with occasional use. I feel that multiscale, for instance, is too powerful, and maintain my opposition to No Guard because I don't think it is relevant to the concept (and detrimental under the conventional understanding of risk). Maintaining the balance between the two chosen abilities is already hard enough.

So basically, what I'm looking for is something in bewteen No Competetive Ability and the abilities being suggested. A real niche ability, a gimmicky one even. Truant could be interesting, for instance, if we gave CAP4 Skill Swap (apologies for poll jump, but it would be entirely useless otherwise). It's still generally negative, but can in some cases cause trouble (it would often force out the normal CAP4 counter straight back out, and force extra switches, for instance). I see no reason not to add something fun when we can, especially if it's something really risky.

[samtheman]

This might be too much of a crazy idea, but maybe consider it: Imposter.

It's an incredibly risky ability, as its usefulness depends entirely on what the opponent is using. I know what you're thinking: depending on its HP stat, CAP4 would be either outclassed by Ditto or outclass it. But if the opponent has a Substitute or Illusion (which will likely see more usage), CAP4 would presumably actually be able to attack. In the case of those two scenarios, CAP4 would effectively have no ability, but could be a unique way to see if another CAP4 is an Illusion.

Before deriding Imposter, consider the way we could use this CAP to explore some of the practical applications of this unique and risky ability.

[MCBarrett]

i dont think there's going to be a problem with the stat spread for moxie. A decent attack stat, a better special attack stat, decent speed, and usable defenses should be a really good fit for each one of these abilities. I think one thing moxie really adds to illusion is the fact that its going to force us have both attack stats be usable which will add to the unpredictability of the set cap4 may be running with illusion. For example, lets say cap4 is disguised as latios so the opponent brings in specially defensive jirachi to take the draco meteor. stab megahorn may be able to 2hko for the examples sake. If we dont have that attack stat it will be easier to tell what cap4 is going to be disguised as (mostly likely a physical attacker to take down the physical walls that will switch in) and it just gives it a more dynamic movepool

and in regards to the decision to slate No Guard and not slate NCA i agree 1000%. No reason to stop looking for a way to explore risk and reward and No Guard is perfectly fine as a tertiary ability.

[Blazikenrage]

samtheman that is in my opinion a brilliant idea. It's mostly gimmicky ability but it can actually be useful in certain circumstances. Way to think out of the box.

[Bird]

I just felt like taking a big risk and suggesting something completely different. Here goes;

Chlorophyll. It doesn't play the getting hit = effect game, but assuming weak armour's speed boost makes it a worthwhile ability, Chlorophyll's speed boost will surely be helpful. Against the trade-off of every fire-attack bringing 4x the pain; giving it a mean risk. But because it requires a turn of set-up (or giving away your ability by having a ninetails in team preview) the effects aren't as instant as illusion/weak armour. Sun itself is pretty risky, but CAP4 doesn't even have to work that well in sun; just an alternative to agility/rock polish (or better; should those 2 not make the moveset) that also kills a turn of rain teams is potentially a pretty defensive reward.

Alternatively if you don't use sun, Chlorophyll won't do anything, giving you that NCA option you've been looking for, if you want to threaten things with CAP4's stabs at any time in the game, but without risking a defence drop.

[SubwayJ]

I am still really liking Trace.

I am completely against the statement that it is "bland and uninteresting" I believe it is exactly the opposite! You have the ability to get ALMOST ANY OTHER ABILITY, which cannot be bland. When an ability has the chance to make or break your chances of winning, I think this is very risky!

[Meganium Sulfate]

I agree with capefeather's argument against Multiscale; really, I don't see any risk involved. If anything else should be slated, it is Moxie. Contrary to what A_R claimed, Moxie has a lot of duality with the other abilities. While Illusion works best in the early game and Weak Armor is best for the lategame, Moxie is at its most powerful in the mid-game, when there are less checks to force CAP4 to switch, but still enough foes to KO for attack boosts. It's perfect!

[Nyktos]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarco

No Competitive Ability is indiscernible from a "safe option". To play with CAP 4 you should have to go all out with risks (even if they are clear rewards).

Once again, in what situation is a non-competitive ability "safer" than Illusion?

[LordPenguinFan]

You know, I'm really liking the idea of Harvest. It's a much different ability with a great set of risk. With riskymon behind a sub, and a pinch berry kicking in 50% of the time, it could be danerous. I know for a fact that I would love to try out different sets based around that. It definitely has its advantages. I'm curious as to counter-arguments as to why Harvest wouldn't work or isn't viable.

Other than that No Competitive Ability seems like a good idea too. We've spent a TON of time discussing these abilities.

[capefeather]

Originally Posted by Fat SubwayJ

I am still really liking Trace.

I am completely against the statement that it is "bland and uninteresting" I believe it is exactly the opposite! You have the ability to get ALMOST ANY OTHER ABILITY, which cannot be bland. When an ability has the chance to make or break your chances of winning, I think this is very risky!

Think about what can practically be exploited by Trace in OU, though. Trace is just not that great an ability in OU because you can only really take advantage of random immunities, Natural Cure, Intimidate and (situational) Poison Heal.

[Deck Knight]

If we're gonna go with a risky ability that doesn't overshadow either existing ability, there's always Hustle, which people hate to death (and I still prefer Flare Boost because of the orbs effect on status absorption), but if we're gonna keep with the theme and keep something remotely competitive, Hustle seems like something right in the middle.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and we could always go with the riskiest ability of all in CAP: Drought.

[viashinomage]

I was going to post this long drawn out post stating what ability would be the best to "force" people to use the risky abilities, but then i said, "nah it'll probably be removed as poll jumping again. so for now no competitive ability