|Oct 7th, 2012, 4:20:59 PM||#1|
Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE
Join Date: Apr 2009
I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010
CAP 4 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Submissions
Stats! This stage is obviously a very crucial one for this project. So please give a lot of thought to your submissions and discussions!
BSR abuse is doing things like 150 HP and 70 Def/SpD to create a theoretical optimum with the limits that you have. The purpose of the stat rating limits is to restrict what submitters can do, not to give them a license to game the system. If you cannot justify your stats legitimately and have not proven that you aren't just making the best stats within the limits, you will not get slated.
A spreadsheet for calculating the biases can be found here. The formulas themselves can be found here. Do not use the BSR calculator on-site, as it is designed for DPP BSR. To use the spreadsheet, you will need Microsoft Excel 2007 or higher, OpenOffice.org Calc 3 or higher, or a similar spreadsheet program that can handle .xlsx files. Alternatively, you can upload the spreadsheet onto Google docs. At any rate, you must have the stat rating values listed correctly in your submission or it will be ignored for slate.
Below is CAP 4 so far:
Typing: Bug / Psychic
Abilities: Weak Armour / Illusion / No Guard
If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty.
<+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3
<%V4> Naruto is climaxing!
<+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason
|Oct 7th, 2012, 4:38:09 PM||#2|
Fare thee well.
Join Date: Sep 2008
CURRENT SPREAD INDEX FOR COMPARISON'S SAKE
User.................. HP Atk Def SpA SpD Spe SF BST PT............. ST............. PS............. SS.............. BSR capefeather........ 110 120 99 117 60 94 541 600 185.8419772 116.5716576 194.8938802 193.0895226 390.1675287 srk1214.............. 100 112 100 112 55 91 532 570 175.8824467 100.8373707 178.2836241 182.1137426 355.2770278 Dusk209............. 130 112 80 125 50 81 461 578 171.1991257 112.2826789 160.3796534 183.1891738 348.6849103 fryfrey................ 100 120 105 120 70 85 469 600 184.3771938 125.4869503 174.1806873 178.1129557 371.6749554 erisia................. 89 116 115 105 60 100 574 585 186.7886059 100.7843608 197.5573707 180.612032 374.0223319 Korski ...................... 95 105 106 100 70 124 652 600 179.8981453 121.2461624 198.0506562 190.6250366 389.789654 uwnim................ 121 116 96 111 55 81 461 580 192.9416926 115.6126612 166.1875228 163.2452715 355.8467268 WebsterVanCooney 88 122 100 122 65 88 502 585 161.7726966 107.6708221 186.6127511 190.2355012 361.2850385 DarkSlay............ 80 130 125 105 67 78 429 585 189.8576759 104.1721721 177.3048292 148.3069417 343.8330919 shstakvchlvr......... 121 105 99 102 48 100 574 575 198.6663052 102.6927154 176.7435712 175.1948804 365.8727467 meteor64........... 110 124 101 122 61 82 464 600 189.4391663 118.3113445 178.7587164 179.6840171 374.3175889 BlackHawk11...... 95 135 118 120 61 71 405 600 199.6876677 106.8901316 176.9441171 162.0899093 360.8397739 PokNinjaGuy.......... 110 120 105 120 70 75 413 600 196.6335445 133.9685261 159.7110388 164.0035548 366.5401684 Deck Knight.................. 101 110 110 98 73 108 616 600 194.1473986 131.2939383 198.2158714 177.6369949 397.3035762 Admiral_Stalfos19.... 55 124 154 114 82 71 405 600 190.5003869 101.8349197 162.8440627 154.6688658 337.4198599 SubwayJ.............. 110 120 100 110 55 80 432 575 187.6405718 107.8732233 164.4736488 155.4458295 341.077242 Engineer Pikachu... 95 117 115 115 60 83 465 585 194.7402871 105.295017 168.6720849 169.8728104 356.2350886 FlareBlitz........... 120 105 95 95 50 110 623 575 189.9074984 105.728734 189.7968005 173.3955948 369.4948436 Mr Holiday............ 95 125 105 135 65 75 413 600 178.2490185 113.2705897 166.2157981 183.1196707 357.7248002 GRs Cousin.......... 114 136 104 115 49 82 464 600 199.6976322 100.0181276 196.7474821 169.6289344 374.2514041 Scoopapa............ 95 110 118 115 57 90 503 585 199.6876677 100.5096734 167.5235831 179.4401305 361.8542921 zyrefredric........... 73 127 133 127 73 67 361 600 191.3224592 106.7359211 155.3438277 159.7450732 339.5802519 skidilidy............ 114 110 100 100 65 101 599 590 192.3438218 128.4699591 193.212748 177.4455235 390.871506 Mari............ 87 139 121 103 73 77 427 600 193.5545101 119.0149297 189.0224058 145.3350533 361.7009543 jas61292............. 102 129 112 119 59 79 431 600 198.8606132 108.8948677 176.5095593 167.0756583 364.5913465 Shroomtastic........ 100 130 112 115 55 88 502 600 196.2698398 100.8373707 199.7637268 179.1806321 380.773348 Nyktos................ 130 108 85 100 45 102 603 570 181.1885497 102.6204292 190.3407096 178.4007994 365.3835815 ganj4lf................ 100 110 103 115 72 100 574 600 180.979295 128.773561 186.1183699 199.0347072 393.1201948 MCBarrett........... 89 130 115 101 69 81 461 585 186.7886059 114.6199313 186.7961084 149.2675392 355.5095013 Rediamond.......... 110 107 95 110 59 104 605 585 178.647599 114.8319707 188.8894165 198.376458 383.8471485 DEMo_Gorgon47... 109 129 107 105 51 65 321 566 198.9851696 100.2494433 147.7504509 128.3830103 314.8404041 TordenOfItami....... 105 85 155 115 95 90 503 645 277.9439689 172.0151403 128.7312998 179.4401305 434.5230525
Ugh very quick OP this time, personal reasons, hope you understand
Welcome, one and all, to the second bit of CAP that requires an owner! Yes, if you win this stage, you, that's right you, will have your name plastered on the CAP site for all time! Not that anybody looks at that bit, but still.
So anyway, submit your stat spreads here. The limits we are presented with are as follows:
160 < PT < 200
100 < ST < 140
150 < PS < 200
140 < SS < 200
330 < BSR < 400
So yeah. Make spreads. But don't go overboard with them – I am far more likely to slate conservative spreads.
A few things that I will approve of in a stat spread:
- High HP – useful for several risky moves that I am keen to see on the movepool, and marginally helps with the SR weakness.
- Discrepancy – If you have an ultra-high PT I expect a lower ST, and vice-versa, rather than trying to squash them into the maximum or minimum allowed. This doesn't necessarily apply to PS and SS though.
- Specialisation – we have determined this Pokemon to be a bulky, mixed attacker with the potential to sweep, wall-break, or support, with prediction heavy on the latter two roles. The limits don't leave much room for deviation from this, but minimising one of sweepiness or tankiness while maximising the other is unhelpful, so please don't do that.
- Speed – Make sure you justify your Speed stat! There are a heck of a lot of viable ones, so you should make sure that you explain your reasoning for each and how you compensate (or don't) in the other stats.
- Aesthetics – Ok so this won't actually be a criterion that I'm using to pick spreads for the slate, but… it's nice if in-game flavour is followed. That means that where applicable, stats ought to be rounded to the nearest 10 or 5, and as for BST, going over 600 is a daft idea. Going for exactly 600, on the other hand, is very pleasing to the eye. But again, that's just me.
The limits are quite lax, so there's a lot of room for variety. I'll be popping in from time to time to give critiques; other than that, submit and have fun!
BMB's obligatory Topic Leader footnote gimmick - My Top 15 Arthropods
#8 The Ichneumon Wasp
Art / C&C / The Smog / Longest Ever Analysis MkI / Longest Ever Analysis MkII / Warstories / Stupid Poem / CAP 4: Aurumoth
Last edited by bugmaniacbob; Oct 10th, 2012 at 8:47:54 AM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 4:44:12 PM||#3|
Here's my mega plan: YOU DIE
Join Date: Apr 2009
I'm a super fighting robot from the year 2010
110 HP / 120 Atk / 99 Def / 117 SpA / 60 SpD / 94 Spe
PT: 185.8420 (Excellent)
ST: 116.5717 (Above Average)
PS: 194.8939 (Excellent)
SS: 193.0895 (Excellent)
BSR: 390.1675 (Excellent)
This spread has been fun to make. There were a lot of considerations to make, and I was (and still am) quite worried about how viable CAP 4 will be. Yet, I particularly like the look of my spread, even if part of me wanted other things. I'll probably add some more calculations as time goes on, though for now I think I've said all that I've really needed to.
If we cannot take joy in things that are merely real, our lives will always be empty.
<+joshe> im a registered sex offender for up to calc 3
<%V4> Naruto is climaxing!
<+Reflect_Suicune> i was thining of fucking jellicent for some reason
Last edited by capefeather; Oct 9th, 2012 at 3:33:51 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 4:52:59 PM||#4|
Supreme Master of Trivia
Join Date: May 2010
cape and I thought along the same lines. Don't have time now, and probably won't
100 HP / 112 Atk / 100 Def / 112 SpA / 55 SpD / 91 Spe
PT: 175.8824 (Excellent)
ST: 100.8374 (Above Average)
PS: 178.2836 (Excellent)
SS: 182.1137 (Excellent)
BSR: 355.2770 (Excellent)
Calcs and reasoning to be edited in
Best. Match. Ever.
To see the other best match ever, go to DetroitLolcat's signature.
Last edited by srk1214; Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:36:05 PM. Reason: SO similar to cape lol
|Oct 7th, 2012, 5:37:32 PM||#5|
Join Date: Feb 2012
(This post is very WIP, I'll be constantly editing and updating it)
I think I've got a pretty nice spread right here, which I put a lot of thought into:
Rating: 348.6849 (Very Good)
Defensive Calcs, assuming psybug has no investment in hp, defense, or sp.defense:
That last calc (ttar's banded pursuit) is pretty interesting: If you predict correctly and the opponent goes for pursuit as you stay in, you could survive get a weak armor boost. If you switch out you're dead.
Last edited by Dusk209; Oct 7th, 2012 at 7:44:22 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 5:41:14 PM||#6|
Join Date: May 2012
Is probably the only person who doesn't do IRC.
90 HP / 120 Atk / 115 Def / 120 SpA / 70 SpD / 85 Spe / 600 BST
PT: 188.1139 (Excellent)
ST: 117.0054 (Above Average)
PS: 174.1807 (Very Good)
SS: 178.1130 (Excellent)
BSR: 368.5678 (Excellent)
Speed: I contemplated speed for a while and thought up 85. I mean, it's enough to get by, but not enough to get ahead. After a Weak Armor boost, speed will be bumped to 170, and will then outpace almost everything, but will put it at the risk for Scarves, Shell Smash and DDers, and priority moves.
Offensive Stats: Amazing offese with mediocre speed. Seems perfectly risky to me. And after a Weak Armor boost it becomes an amazing offensive force.
Defensive Stats: Pretty good, but repeated battering will quickly wear it down.
<Scarfwynaut> can't people just sit around and eat a cheese wheel?
<Scarfwynaut> that is my kind of social gathering
Last edited by fryfrey; Oct 9th, 2012 at 5:09:26 PM. Reason: I tweaked it a bit
|Oct 7th, 2012, 5:42:07 PM||#7|
Join Date: Jun 2009
I'm not talented enough to provide any feedback here, but my initial thought was to have it at a base 100 speed. While the speed ties are not the risk/reward we're looking for, nearly all base 100 Speed Pokes heavily debate on neutral nature vs +Speed natures vs. Neutral/+Speed Nature w/ Choice Scarf. I believe there's a lot of risk/reward in those decisions during the team building process, and I think should be a huge starting point for this CAP.
That same 100 base speed creates the same risk/reward with Weak Armor where you have to use proper prediction (and potentially damage calculators to take educated guesses)to guess which of the above benchmarks the base 100 opposition chose.
With base 100 being such a popular speed bench, It also creates a lot of synergy with Illusion.
If someone has an argument for a speed bench that is more popular in OU, I think that may be more appropriate. For the above reasons, however, choosing a base speed that ties 'the most popular speed tier in the metagame' is going to have the best relationship with the concept.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 5:43:46 PM||#8|
(macho) brace yourselves
Join Date: Nov 2011
89 HP / 116 Atk / 115 Def / 105 SpA / 60 SpD / 100 Spe
PT: 186.7886 (Excellent)
ST: 100.7844 (Above Average)
PS: 197.5574 (Excellent)
SS: 180.6120 (Excellent)
BSR: 374.0223 (Excellent)
HP Justification: This is pretty simple. Base 89 HP gives us a HP stat of 319 when uninvested, which is a Life Orb number. This becomes 321, a Leftovers number, with a mere 8 HP EVs invested. This allows CAP to use both Life Orb and Leftovers efficiently on offensive sets, the former seeing use on setup sweepers or hit and run attackers with U-Turn, and the latter seeing use with a Substitute set that I see working pretty well with Illusion. Defenses can be moulded around this HP stat to provide overall bulk levels, so I think this is simply the most efficient Base HP for a Pokemon that aims to fill numerous offensive roles. I don't really feel a larger HP stat is necessary; even though it's one of the lowest submitted, it's still pretty high and, to be honest, the use of likely recoil moves, Wish, and Final Gambit isn't likely to be a bigger factor than creating efficient EV spreads for standard sweepers. High HP to mitigate Head Smash recoil is just about the only thing I'd consider, and to be honest, doesn't having a middling HP stat make using Head Smash as a wallbreaking tool more risky? Full health CAP 4 will always survive a Head Smash against its targets (highest HP target: 252 Gyarados) even after Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage, anyways. Apologies for poll jumping, but I'm just weighing up whether we'll actually find a high HP stat useful or not, and I think Base 89 HP is more useful due to the efficiency of the EV spreads it begets.
ATK / SPA Justification: I believe that having a relatively high Atk stat is very important for CAP4, as it faces significant competition as a special attacker from much of the OU metagame, including Genesect and Volcarona. However, as CAP4 still has excellent neutral STAB coverage, and will almost certainly have great special STAB attacks in Bug Buzz and Psychic, it has a good opportunity to function as an effective mixed attacker (outside of just U-Turn spam in Genesect's case) Furthermore, although the 105 Base SpA is relatively low compared to its competition, it can still pack a punch, especially after boosts from Calm Mind (or Quiver Dance / Tail Glow if we deem them necessary) Unless we take significant liberties with CAP4's movepool, its special offense is likely to overshadow its physical offense if given equal attacking stats, due to relatively lacklustre physical Psychic attacks and boosting options. I reckon this slight difference between Attack and Special Attack will be enough to entice people to use physical offensive options more often on CAP4, thus increasing the risk of prediction on the opponent's part. While Megahorn is the more powerful (and usually better when invested STAB attack), CAP4's Special Attack stat is still high enough to make effective use of Hidden Power to get past its normal checks, which I feel is a crucial factor in ensuring that CAP4 doesn't get walled too easily.
As can be seen, even an uninvested Megahorn is an excellent wallbreaking for CAP4, busting through many specially defensive checks that can easily take a Psychic or Bug Buzz and strike back. Fully invested Megahorn has the power to break through even bulkier walls and is generally powerful enough to OHKO neutral offensive threats as they attempt to switch in, or are outsped. Meanwhile, Zen Headbutt still has enough power to get the job done over Psychic if you're running a 252 Atk / 252 Spe spread, OHKOing most Fighting types in the tier and 2HKOing relatively bulky neutral targets such as Tornadus-T with ease, even when taking Regenerator into account.
On the other hand, special attacks are also viable for a specially based mixed set, with Psychic hitting targets such as Gliscor and Conkeldurr harder than Zen Headbutt, among others. Meanwhile, an invested Leftovers set (or uninvested Life Orb set) has a strong enough Hidden Power to threaten most of CAP4's checks as they switch in or are outsped. Although 252SpA Bug Buzz is inferior to 0Atk Megahorn against pretty much everything other than Metagross, it is still a good option for special boosting sets, and I expect that we'll go along that route to make CAP4 more of an unpredictable threat.
DEF / SPD Justification: My aim here was to make CAP4 able to switch into relatively strong physical attacks even after Stealth Rock damage, and performing much better with it off the field. On the other hand, I also wanted to ensure that CAP4 had an exploitable weakness to special attacks, making it harder to switch in against certain opponents, and thus I gave it the lowest Base SpD possible with the Base 89 HP. Thus, 115 / 60 defenses seemed like a good idea. The justification is mostly behind specific calculations, which are mostly related to CAP4 with uninvested defenses.
Of note: While CAP 4 can murder offensive Politoed and Rotom-W on the switch with an invested Megahorn, they can murder CAP 4 in return if they get the chance. Likewise with Genesect and HP Fire respectively.
SPE Justification: I'm of the opinion that CAP 4 needs a relatively good base Speed to ensure that Illusion and No Guard remain viable without having to resort to a Choice Scarf. As stated throughout the thread, Base 100 Speed is a very common (and still quite effective) Speed tier, introducing many risks through Speed ties, choosing appropriate natures, remaining outsped by certain Scarfers after boosts (and thus requiring more prediction to play effectively), etc. Furthermore, it ensures that Scarf Genesect isn't a foolproof response, if CAP 4 acquires a Speed boost and runs HP Fire. It also meshes very well with Base 116 Attack, providing the highest possible physical sweepiness level. While I'm very much in love with Korski's Speed stat, Base 100 Speed is more practical for allowing higher base offensive stats, and thus ensuring that CAP 4 doesn't have to boost to be threatening.
BST Justification: Was originally 580 for legendary trio status (and because it had precedent, moreover), but as bmb doesn't like that for some reason, I bumped up the Defense stat to 115. It doesn't make a great difference to the calcs from before, although it lets CAP 4 tank popular priority attacks more effectively when SR is off the field.
Check out Slowmons: A new metagame where the slowest Pokémon moves first!
Last edited by erisia; Oct 9th, 2012 at 4:48:45 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 5:52:33 PM||#9|
Distilled, 80 proof
Join Date: Mar 2009
Here is my Final Submission:
HP: 95 331-394
Atk: 105 221-246-309-339
Def: 106 223-248-311-342
SpA: 100 212-236-299-328
SpD: 70 158-176-239-262
Spe: 124 255-284-347-381
PS: 198.0507 (Excellent)
SS: 190.6250 (Excellent)
PT: 179.8981 (Excellent)
ST: 121.2462 (Above Average)
ODB: 2.4534 (Slightly biased toward offense)
PSB: 9.6793 (Moderately biased towards physical)
BSR: 389.7897 (Excellent)
The Spread: 95/105/106/100/70/124
My approach to making this spread centered around the 124 Spe stat, which I chose primarily because of CAP's three interesting and offensively competitive Abilities. Overall, this spread is FAST because I want there to be a small, consistent reward for choosing this Pokemon to be on your team in the first place, and I believe high Spe is the best way to do that. This is a very ambitious CAP, so kudos to everyone so far. I would like to continue along the same vein as our discussions up to this point and focus our CAP on its offensive capabilities. Here I've built a spread that is not initially very threatening to bulkier opponents but great against fast-and-frail offense-types, a large number of whom are targeted by our Bug/Psychic STABs (e.g. Gengar, Lati@s, Alakazam, Keldeo, Infernape, etc.). The offenses are both middling and difficult to run mixed if EVing for Speed; this goes a long way toward the "situational checks / no hard counters" approach we've decided on (i.e. when Skarmory checks, Blissey doesn't, and vice versa), as it forces the user to decide before the match what CAP can and cannot handle. Defensively, this spread offers natural bulk enough to survive many neutral blows, but few SE ones, and Special Attacks not so much. Physically defensive stat builds can enjoy their Slowbro-esque tankiness, although I think this spread dissuades defensive EVing more than the others (I'd just like to note that our typing and all three of our abilities dissuade defensive EVing as well).
For late-game cleaning, Weak Armor CAP can switch into a physical blow with its pretty badass natural bulk and, depending on its Spe EVs, not have to worry about being revenge-killed by common Choice Scarfers like Thundurus-T, Landorus, Politoed, Latios, or Terrakion. This is a pretty rare treat for an offensive Pokemon, make no mistake about it; the REWARD for working around Weak Armor is that this spread's +1 Speed boost will be an enormous problem for offensive opponents as well as the notion of revenge-killing in the first place. Weak Armor also opens CAP up to more creative EV spreads, since a single Speed boost can become sweep-worthy with very few EVs invested. In return, the offensive stats are low enough to let defensive Pokemon stand a better chance of checking and wearing down CAP builds with heavy Speed investment. Multiple boosts may be needed to clean out an entire team, while at the same time proper coverage choices may be better for picking off weakened foes toward the end of the match. Any way you cut it, this spread makes Weak Armor worth it over the other two Abilities by being the only one with a shot at not being revenge-killed by OU's most common and notorious Scarfers, ESPECIALLY GENESECT.
In the early game, Illusion CAP can net some incredible surprise damage for the player because not only is it faster than the Pokemon being copied, it's most likely faster than the opponent's Pokemon as well. Confident opponents may believe they can KO Blissey with their Choice Band Infernape lead (or scout with U-turn), only to be KO'd before they even make a move. CAP could also use Illusion to bait an incorrect switch and use the opportunity to set up twice while the opponent switches out again; with high Speed and lower attacking stats, this spread immediately threatens more offensive switch-ins with the risk of being KO'd and will cause more unwanted double switches for the opponent. Again, more tankish and defensive Pokemon are the best response, but the psychological aspect of Illusion and the Poke being copied in particular may make the opponent too slow to react and let CAP get two or more boosts in before it has to attack.
No Guard CAP has the pleasure of taking its incredible Speed and then backing up its lower Atk/SpA with high-powered, low Accuracy moves like Focus Blast, Cross Chop, Megahorn, and Blizzard to give it an edge over Weak Armor and Illusion builds. This CAP is most threatening right out of the gate and difficult to switch into, depending on its movepool, of course. I have not given much more thought to No Guard than this, since it's pretty exclusively grounded in the movepool department; however, I kept the SpA down so as to keep more options on the table when we get to that stage.
I've chosen offenses that are high enough to take advantage of SE coverage, but not so high that they reward spamming attacks. CAP's main form of offense is going to be its blistering Speed, which will on occasion give it more than one shot at incoming opponents. TL stat limits keep the actual Atk/SpA from going much higher, although I'd be incredibly reluctant to raise them from this point, since they are more than most Pokemon could ever ask for and balance out the high Speed while maintaining a general offensive presence. Since Attack and Special Attack are both low, they must be specialized in terms of EVs and moveset and in many cases will need to be backed up by Life Orb in order to get the desired damage output. For example, 105 Attack 2HKOs Blissey with Cross Chop while 100 SpA OHKOs Physically Defensive Skarmory with LO Thunderbolt; however, both require SR and 252 EVs to do so and cannot be accomplished simultaneously. Furthermore, 124 Spe is spectacular for facilitating boosting moves like Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, or even Quiver Dance; the higher Spe will more often than not give you the choice between going for a second boost or going for the sweep. Being reasonably modest stats, the extra boosts will radically change this Poke's damage output.
These defenses are pretty damn good so there shouldn't be any complaints. As I have said before, this CAP should not be called "defensive" ever, nor have we at any point decided to steer it in that direction. So, what I have here is a good defensive backbone for an offensive Pokemon and nothing more; I don't expect much in the way of defensive investment but there are still enough stats here to survive a handful of neutral hits, more so on the physical side (and including a handful of non-STAB U-turns). I understand the appeal of high HP when considering moves like Wish and Final Gambit (as per the concept), but I just don't like the 130/80/45 builds because
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
Last edited by Korski; Oct 9th, 2012 at 3:06:09 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 5:55:51 PM||#10|
Join Date: Mar 2011
121 HP / 116 Atk / 96 Def / 111 SpA / 55 SpD / 81 Spe
Last edited by uwnim; Oct 9th, 2012 at 9:31:28 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 6:07:53 PM||#11|
Join Date: Oct 2012
I'm pretty new to all of this, but here's what I've come up with:
PT:169.6546 (Very Good)
ST:107.8732 (Above Average)
PS:166.6645 (Very Good)
SS:170.7839 (Very Good)
The way I see it, this CAP can be an offensive force, but it has glaring (risky) holes in SpD and Speed. The key to using this guy effectively is to boost the speed and sweep from there. We've given him Weak Armour, so that's one way. Also, if movepool can be discussed, Agility and Flame Charge would be interesting boosting options (especially since the attack is so high, FC would probably do surprisingly high damage to steels.)
Like I said, I'm new at this, so don't go too hard on me.
"I am a poor hater." -James A. Garfield
I go by WebsterVC on Showdown, so feel free to challenge me to a UU match.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 6:09:11 PM||#12|
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: CAP, C&C, or RMT!
DarkSlay's Submission for CAP4
HP: I had a lot of discussion on this point that led me to make the HP value comparatively lower than some other potential spreads, at 80. Why should we give CAP4 such a pedestrian HP stat? Well, it's simple, really: during the course of the stat limit discussions, and even before that, the idea behind CAP4's defensive prowess was that in order for Weak Armor to be useful, CAP4 should be able to take physical hits much better than it is able to take special hits. Thus, its weakness to Special-based moves becomes its "achilles' heel", and it must play off of its above average physical bulk to carry out its gameplan. HP, in general, has been seen as a contrast to the two defensive stats: HP investment/specifics provide a moderate way to deal with all attacks, regardless of spectrum. Defense and Special Defense investment/specifics, on the other hand, is a way to specifically target a defense and give CAP4 better protection in that specific area. In short: high HP and low defenses promotes general bulk, while low HP and high defenses (or one specific defense) promotes specific bulk. An HP stat of 80 is by no means "bad", but it's definitely average enough to concentrate on making CAP4 an offensive threat while still giving it the much needed Defensive bulk it requires to be successful.
EDIT: Changed my HP value to 80. This gives it slightly more physical bulk than Gliscor, but slightly less special bulk than Scizor. Emphasizes the polarizations between the two defenses while still keeping a comparatively low HP value.
ATK: Woo boy, 130 Attack is a large stat. However, under closer investigation, you will notice that it's actually a pretty normal stat to have in terms of becoming a physical threat in the metagame. It has the same attack as Breloom, Mamoswine, and Scizor. There are other OU Pokemon that have higher Attack as well, such as Haxorus, Dragonite, Conkeldurr, and Landorus-T. So, 130 as a number is certainly not as uncommon in the Fifth Generation as it was in previous generations. I think 130 Attack is the perfect number to show that CAP4 is a viable Physical threat in the metagame, and could have the capacity to devastate Pokemon immediately through sheer physical power.
DEF: This rolls off from the HP discussion, so it should be no surprise to you that I have decided to give my spread a very high Defense stat of 125. Giving CAP4 a very high defensive stat, while keeping the HP stat on the lower end of the spectrum, enables CAP4 for be Physically bulky naturally rather than just through straight HP investment, and shows a great contrast with the SpD stat (which will be discussed in a second). Again, CAP4 has a lot of important resistances in types such as Ground and Fighting. I think it's very important to make CAP4 have extremely strong resistances where it should be, and with a majority of CAP4's resistances being predominatly Physically biased, it should be able to soak up resisted hits with ease. Also, high Defense enables correct usage of Weak Armor, giving CAP4 a way to gain a boost without having to fear an easy OHKO from the opponent. Good bulk against priority should also help ensure that Weak Armor is not put to waste.
SpA: Now, I'm a personal believer that one of the least riskiest playstyles for a Pokemon to have is an immediate Wallbreaker, something that has good to great offensive stats that can hit almost everything with one set with zero set-up. Some of that has to do with movepool, but a good portion of that is balanced offensive stats. However, there is some merit in putting emphasis on move selection during the team building stage in terms of "risk", so some avenues should be left open. There needs to be some middle ground. Therefore, I believe that a 105 SpA stat is just what is needed for CAP4. While 105 is a three digit number that many will immediately see as "high", it's actually just "above average" in comparison to some of the threats in the OU tier. It's a stat that allows it to have some selection on the Special side, but must take considerable measures to allow itself to become a true wallbreaker. Even, mixed stats promote wallbreaker status, while giving one attacking stat a sizable advantage (130 Atk to 105 SpA), one high and one above average, it then has even more decisions to make when it comes to its movepool, relying on certain moves or boosting moves to correctly hit the Pokemon it wants to.
SpD: See: Defense, but flip around that argument. We've established that Special moves should be the bane of CAP4, and a low stat of 67 SpD provides average to below average Special bulk overall for CAP4. It makes sense with the concept, and gives a stark contrast against its much more impressive Defense stat.
Spe: 78 seems like a pretty specific number. That's because it is! Now, to balance out the high offensive stats of CAP4, and to emphasize the risk used for Weak Armor (and other abilities as well, since speed does play a role for almost everything in Pokemon), a relatively average Speed is necessary. A stat of 78 puts it one point higher than Heatran, something that while on paper is a huge threat to CAP4, is something that should be dealt with. Speed is the #1 answer to threats as fast as Heatran and below. Pokemon above the 80 benchmark, including things like Dragonite, can be dealt through different means, and have the ability to increase speed, making a speed higher than this irrelevant. At +1 (be it Weak Armor or Scarf), Timid 252 Spe CAP4 would then hit 420 Speed, being able to out-speed the fastest of OU threats (like Alakazam) and things such as ScarfTran. It's a great Speed number, something that gives it the tools it needs to succeed without making it too fast to beat threats it should have to deal with otherwise.
[23:49:15] <orcinus> potato potato
[23:49:16] <orcinus> that really
[23:49:23] <orcinus> doesn't have the same effect as when you say it out loud
Last edited by DarkSlay; Oct 9th, 2012 at 2:34:27 PM. Reason: FINAL SUBMISSION
|Oct 7th, 2012, 6:10:48 PM||#13|
Join Date: Apr 2009
I was thinking of something along the lines of this:
121 / 105 / 99 / 102 / 48 / 100
PT - Excellent (198.67)
PS - Excellent (176.74)
SS - Excellent (175.19)
- Its HP is high, no doubt, but its defenses even it out, leaving it with higher natural Def but still amazing SpD if you choose to invest in it, ŕ la Alomomola.
- In terms of discrepancy, the PT is towards the high-end but still "Excellent" whereas the ST is towards the low-end but still staying in the "Above Average" range.
- For specialization, it isn't specifically biased towards physical or special offense, which, as stated in the OP, is invaluable to this CAP. This is further supported by the stat spread's ability to be able to wall specially if needed depending on the correct EV spreads.
- Speed is the most difficult part of this CAP, I think, due to Weak Armor. That's why I've chosen "pixie" speed. In the past 100 base Spe was all you needed, but now it's sometimes considered slow. Despite this fact, 100 base Spe allows for a reasonable choice between all three abilities. If the Spe were slower then Weak Armor would have more appeal than the others and if it were faster then this ability would fall by the wayside for everyone. 100 base Spe allows it to compete safely without often worrying about being outsped, although with the introduction of the genies, Keldeo, and Latios into OU, the ability to outspeed these threats and KO (which could feasibly be possible for the latter two due to the CAP's STAB) becomes perhaps necessary, lending to the use of Weak Armor. However, if someone wants to go the route of the other two abilities, he isn't hindered by a poor Spe stat (which at this point, to me, is 98 and under due to Genesect). 100 base Spe is invaluable. I can't support this strongly enough.
- Aesthetics -
Last edited by shstakvchlvr; Oct 10th, 2012 at 6:36:58 AM. Reason: Changed the stats to give better discrepancy and a 575 BST
|Oct 7th, 2012, 6:21:43 PM||#14|
Join Date: Apr 2012
Avatar by the awesome Magistrum!
Wowsers,there's a lot of BST 600 spreads circulating round this thread. I don't have anything against it, I just feel that to become a risky pokemon, you need a lower amount of stat totals, but in more precise areas. Taking all that into account, I feel DarkSlay has done the best job at his stats, and his is more adventurous than the rest of the pack. His explanations are executed well in addition.
My favourite pokemon grid
|Oct 7th, 2012, 7:14:43 PM||#15|
Join Date: Jul 2008
Where do you live?
Can take Adamant 252 Terrakion Stone Edge with 252 HP and no SR (max damage is 421, CAP has 424, cba to do %s)
110 HP gives us bulk enough to take the physical hits we need. Also lets us set up 101 HP Subs if we want to set up on Deo-D/Chansey.
101 Defense gives us, as previously mentioned, the ability to take 252+ SE from Terrakion. Anything further than that I feel clambers into the realm of the absurd.
61 SDef ensures, again, a max HP variant of our CAP can survive 2 Scalds from a defensive Politoed- this is the sort of special attack we should be aiming to build our CAP around, so I just took the cookie cutter one that no doubt everyone will use for their spreads
82 Speed gives us the jump on Gyarados and Dragonite, which is a very interesting scenario when you consider DD sets vs Weak Armor. Also trumps Loom, Skarm and Mamo, amongst others.
I don't want to do offensive calcs because that would be making assumptions into the movepool, but I'm pretty sure no matter what specific moves we give it we'll end up with the capability to threaten everything between different EV spreads, which was our goal. As you might have been able to tell, I've already made a couple of assumptions in regards to ways in which we may EV our CAP to create different scenarios in which we can threaten teams- between going for mixed offenses, bulk or making the most of Weak Armor boosts, we have a bunch of viable routes to take with EVs, all with their own advantages.
edit- i hadnt even noticed but this is really close to capes spread lol
Otherwise known as TM1337 Falcon Punch
Last edited by meteor64; Oct 9th, 2012 at 3:03:51 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 7:22:53 PM||#16|
one on one
Join Date: Apr 2009
95 HP / 135 Attack / 118 Defense / 120 Sp. Attack / 61 Sp. Defense / 71 Speed
PT: 199.6877 (Excellent)
ST: 106.8901 (Above Average)
PS: 176.9441 (Very Good)
SS: 162.0899 (Very Good)
BSR: 360.8398 (Excellent)
Attack and Special Attack
I think that CAP4 should be able to fire off extremely powerful Megahorns, but be able to back it up with a several physical and special options. The small discrepancy between physical and special bases is to encourage special sets and allow for uninvested physical attacks to be viable. The large attacking stats also remove the necessity for CAP4 to gain any additional boosts, such as a Nasty Plot/Swords Dance boost, in order to sweep. CAP4 can sweep with just a Speed boost Agiligross style.
Tyranitar is essentially a non-issue for this set, as it is outsped and OHKOed, other things to note are that even some of the most infamous of walls can be brought down in two hits, including Blissey and Skarmory, just with a simple mixed set.
HP, Defense and Special Defense
I kept HP somewhat low to ensure that special tankiness is as low as possible. I feel that CAP4 should not be designed to take special attacks, it should essentially be an Achilles heel. If CAP4 wants to take a turn to stat-up, it must risk taking a powerful special attack. I think that this will emphasize mixed attackers in the metagame. The defense and CAP4's physical tankiness is fairly high as some calcs will (soon) show, allowing it to take a variety of different hits (once), gain a Speed boost, and [attempt to] sweep. With no investment in defenses, CAP dies to pretty much anything with STAB Stone Edge or a super effective special attack. By maxing Defense while keeping max Speed, CAP4 become quite sturdy, being able to withstand even an Outrage from an Adamant Choice Band Salamence or a Stone Edge from a Jolly Scarf Tyranitar/Terrakion with a bit of luck (or no Stealth Rock).
Notable marks: 248 EVs +Nature hits 264 Speed, which outspeeds max Speed Breloom, Metagross, and all other base 70s and below. It also outspeeds nuetral natured base 81s and below, which includes Gyarados, Dragonite, and Heatran (but don't try to stay in against Heatran...). With Weak Armor's +1 boost (or a Choice Scarf), CAP4 hits 396 Speed, which outspeeds 252 EV +nature base 130s.
Being slower makes CAP4 nearly dependent on at least a +1 boost from Weak Armor in order to sweep, but still leaves enough Speed to outspeed some threats. Weak Armor CAP4 must take a hit from Dragonite, Jirachi, and Gyarados before it can outspeed and grab the 2HKO. Basically, CAP4 must risk taking a hit from most of its competitors before either OHKOing or getting the finishing blow.
...Take it higher, take it higher, 'til the roof is on fire. Take it higher, take it higher, let's burn it up...
Last edited by Blackhawk11; Oct 9th, 2012 at 6:00:46 PM. Reason: Added 3 points to Attack, corrected calcs done with 0 def IVs
|Oct 7th, 2012, 7:34:02 PM||#17|
Join Date: Oct 2012
PT: 196.634 (Excellent)
ST: 133.969 (Good)
PS: 19.711 (Very Good)
SS: 164.004 (Very Good)
BSR: 366.540 (Excellent)
Been lurking from the beginning of CAP4, just wanted to put my ideas out there.
I think the relatively high HP allows it for overall bulk, and the high defense but low special defense allows it to actually abuse weak armor.
The speed tier is nice to me; before a boost CAP4 would be slower than most of the metagame, but at +1 with max EVs it would outspeed even 120s with neutral nature, but not Tornadus-t (121), which would be a major threat with hurricane to cap4. I feel that this makes the decision on the nature very important and puts CAP4 in an interesting speed tier. One must decide whether it needs to outspeed tornadus-t or have the extra power. Because CAP4 will most likely need both attacking stats, it will also have to decide whether to completely give up on special defense or allow its physical defense to be lower and risk being killed more easily when deciding nature
The high offensive stats allow it to actually be competent without the speed boost and to put its PS and SS within the boundaries with this speed stat.
I also believe that this spread would make CAP4 capable of running a potent choice scarf set with no guard or illusion, gaining the ability to safely use low accuracy moves or the element of surprise, as well as not having a defense drop, but it would have to switch more often as it'd be locked into one move, and CAP4 has a stealth rock weakness making switching itself a risk.
I like even offenses for maximal mixed potential, this defense and hp gives CAP4 enough to survive 252+ terrakion SE as previously mentioned, now with a bit more leeway
Last edited by PokNinjaGuy; Oct 9th, 2012 at 3:41:12 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 7:44:07 PM||#18|
Join Date: May 2005
So I did a complete overhaul on this after tunning some calcs. There isn't really a legendary-powerful Bug type mon, I figure we might as well make one, especially considering the competition.
101 / 110 / 110 / 98 / 73 / 108
PT: 194.1474 (Excellent)
ST: 131.2939 (Good)
PS: 198.2159 (Excellent])
SS: 177.6370 (Excellent)
Overall: 397.3036 (Excellent)
ODB: 0.1690 (slightly biased towards offense)
PSB: 12.2215 (Heavily biased towards physical)
Speed: The most important thing about this Speed is it ties a lot of potential checks (Infernape, Terrakion, Specs Keldeo in Rain) and makes it so their Scarf versions are still risky against a +1 Speed CAP 4. It also makes it so that there are several important faster Pokemon (Gengar, Latis) that, while not acting as Counters, can successfully revenge kill CAP 4. It also allows us to outspeed Scarf Tornadus-T after a Weak Armor/Quiver Dance boost (or with Scarf) with a +Spe nature and any Hidden Power. It's got sufficient stats for pulling off a Quiver Dance sweep, and enough Defense to take a hit if it needs to use Tail Glow, which is an astounding stat booster.
While it's maximum speed is important, so is its minimum speed. With a single Speed EV CAP 4 hits 253 Speed. With a Quiver Dance Boost plus a Weak Armor Boost, its Speed goes up to 506, Faster than Deoxys-S, and it can use what would have gone into those speed EVs into an offense or defense. It's quite elegant.
Attack / Special Attack: Attack is at the limit of Physical Sweepiness for this Speed. It's really crucial the Base Stat be as high as possible to maximize the benefit of Weak Armor on a Choice set, and 110 Attack is as low as I'm willing to go on that. Special Sweepiness was determined after running a number of mixed calculations and coming to the conclusion 110/98/108 satisfied the needs of a mixed set and a special attacking set with Psyshock. Both Swords Dance and Tail Glow are viable at 108 Speed with their given bases.
HP / Defense / Special Defense:
I was determined to have Defense be higher than HP on this no matter the outcome, so I kept Base Defense at the same level and tweaked HP to get the desired results. Special Defense was then tailored to be the CAP's weak point, but not minimized as previous in order to allow consideration for something other than just a special set. HP is now high enough to pull off 100 HP Subs, which will be excellent if we end up putting Focus Punch (by definition a risky move) on CAP 4. I think it still qualifies as "High HP," though its obviously not defining like it would be for Hariyama.
Aesthetics: I have always preferred Bug types to have lower HP than at least one of their defenses, and I think this is an elegant way to present a Psuedo-legend strength set that is neither overpowered nor boring to look at (oh look all 100s whoopedy-do). It should achieve what it needs to do without going overboard.
In lieu of a large number of calculations I ran out of time for, here are some calculations on a given set and the EVs.
Megahorn is the star of the show here as it has enough Base Power to make a mixed set viable with minimal investment in Attack. The other two moves are Psychic and Focus Blast since they provide the best power/coverage combination.
Set EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe
Nature: Hasty or Naive
Stats: 343 HP / 261 Atk / 256 Def (or 230) / 295 SpA / 182 SpD (or 163) / 342 Spe
Item: Life Orb
[Speed is Tornadus-T Neutral nature Max +1, so a Weak Armor Boost outspeed Scarfnadus]
Potential Boosters: Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Work Up/Growth
Jirachi (OU Specially Defensive) Megahorn 46.28 - 54.45% [2HKO with Spikes]
Xatu (OU Physically Defensive) Megahorn 53.59 - 63.47%
Blissey (OU Support) Megahorn 56.44 - 66.56%
Slowbro (OU Calm Mind) Megahorn 63.95 - 75.88% Psychic 60.15 - 70.81%
Mew (OU Support) Megahorn 67.57 - 79.7%
Reuniclus (OU Calm Mind / Trick) Megahorn 75.94 - 90.09%
Latias (OU Physically Defensive Calm Mind) Megahorn 79.94 - 95.05%
Reuniclus (OU Offensive Trick Room) Megahorn 106.84 - 125.91%
[Comfortably KO's all below Jirachi at +1, KO's Latias with SR up.]
Jellicent (OU Special Wall) Psychic 69.55 - 81.93%
Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Psychic 73.05 - 86.26% [KOs with SR to eliminate Multiscale]
Gastrodon (OU Tank) Psychic 75.11 - 88.73% Focus Blast 67.13 - 79.1%
Bronzong (OU Tank) Focus Blast 76.03 - 89.94% Megahorn 45.26 - 53.55%
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance) Focus Blast 95.93 - 113.08% Psychic 53.77 - 63.37%
Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Focus Blast 96.1 - 113.17% Psychic 53.89 - 63.77%
Jirachi (OU Substitute + Paralysis) Focus Blast 96.39 - 113.85% Megahorn 51.8 - 60.94%
Volcarona (OU Bulky Quiver Dance) Psychic 101.34 - 119.94%
Heatran (OU Weather Trapper [Chople Berry]) Focus Blast 102.16 - 120.67% Psychic 57.71 - 67.9%
Tornadus-T (OU Placeholder) Psychic 143.47 - 168.56% Focus Blast 63.54 - 74.91%
Ferrothorn (OU Standard) Focus Blast 150.56 - 178.12% Psychic 42.32 - 50%
Dragonite (OU Tank (Rain)) Psychic 43.78 - 51.81%
Skarmory (OU Specially Defensive) Focus Blast 57.48 - 67.96% Psychic 32.63 - 38.62%
Scizor (OU Bulky Swords Dance) Focus Blast 57.84 - 68.02% Psychic 32.26 - 38.08%
Jirachi (OU Substitute + Paralysis) Focus Blast 57.89 - 68.42% Megahorn 51.8 - 60.94%
Heatran (OU Specially Defensive) Focus Blast 75.58 - 89.09% Psychic 21.29 - 24.93%
Tornadus-T (OU Placeholder) Psychic 85.95 - 101.67% [Always KOs with SR]
Ferrothorn (OU Standard) Focus Blast 90.9 - 107.1% Megahorn 35.51 - 42.04%
This CAP 4 Stat spread combined a chokepoint speed number with enough offense to attack out of the box physically, and enough defense to utilize a number of stat boosters, having a raw physical defenses slightly greater than Tyranitar, and a special tankiness that is only mid-ranged, but becomes quite effective with a QD boost. I believe it fulfills the discussion parameters we've had so far to an excellent degree, having a number of situational checks. It is also fast and powerful enough to make use of all abilities, without being so fast or so powerful that it cannot be realistically revenge killed. In short, it retains its riskiness to use while being able to competently pull off a sweep if it comes in with the right combination of factors.
[17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me?
[17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner
[17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol
[17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either
[17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages
[17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod.
[17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal.
[17:57] <Birkal> >:|
Last edited by Deck Knight; Oct 10th, 2012 at 7:34:35 AM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 8:22:10 PM||#19|
Join Date: Aug 2011
Considering the rest of the spread, it speaks good music to my ears even with it's blistering fast 94 spd. although i do wish the ST limits allowed sp. defense to be lower and the PT limits to be higher, oh well though.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 8:28:50 PM||#20|
Join Date: Mar 2008
Since there are so many 600BST's out there already...
PT: 190.5004 (Excellent)
ST: 101.8349 (Above Average)
PS: 162.8441 (Very Good)
SS: 154.6689 (Very Good)
Final Rating: 337.4199 (Very Good)
HP: Yes, it's on the low side, I know. It's probably the lowest HP stat that anyone has made so far or would even dare to make. But all in all, it adds a little more risk to CAP4. We already have Weak Armour and Illusion (two very distinctly risky abilities indeed), but I'm not exactly placing the proverbial straw that breaks the back of the proverbial camel by limiting HP levels. Besides, with 55HP, Pain Split is an option for a relatively effective means of recovery.
Atk: It's just shy on what you'd find on Gyarados, and we all know that he hits like a truck. That's all I have to say for the moment. But I'll have calcs up in a minute or two, which should help shed some light on the situation... hopefully.
Def: For your information, no... this isn't designed to abuse physical tankiness limits. In all honesty, this was my core statistic, and I've been playing around with the HP just to find a good HP number. What I was after was a base HP value that, along with this titanic defense value, would allow CAP4 to survive a Drain Punch from a 252Atk Adamant Conkeldurr, followed by a Stone Edge, while taking Stealth Rock damage. Suffice it to say that it would be impossible to find such a statistic that could do this without heavy HP investment, but with 252EVs, 55 was the base stat that could do the job.
Sp. Atk: Basically I poured in as much of what I had left for offenses into this stat whilst still keeping that "slight bias to Defense" in check. I must say that I'm reasonably happy with the results. It certainly gives Infernape a run for its money if you actually invest into it.
Sp. Def: Alright, so now I have the 55HP stat. What I needed then was a maximum base Special Defense that would still leave CAP4 to be OHKO'ed by a Spec Modest Tornadus-T's Hurricane, even with 252EVs to HP and Special Defense. That number was, incidentally, 82. Yeah, it looks high, but with a paltry 55HP stat, it shows how frankly pathetically it takes Special Attacks, and that's what we need.
Spe: Not really happy about the Speed value since it's higher than I would've liked, but apparently it needed to be higher than that in order to fit within the BSR limit, which, quite frankly, is too high for my liking. But rather than bitch and complain about it, I'll just adapt to it like everyone else. Moving on, my speed value has already been justified by someone above me, who shares the same value in his stat spread, but there's no harm in justifying myself; With 71 as the base speed stat, CAP4 can outspeed base 130's with a boost from Weak Armour. With 70 as the base speed stat, it just misses out, stopping at 393 total Speed, whilst the 130's troll with 394 total Speed. Of course you all knew that (well, at least that's what I'm assuming). But the middling speed that this Pokemon has will help all 3 abilities shine to an extent, unlike some of the faster spreads that I've seen, in which makes Weak Armour unnecessary and therefore less appealing.
Colossoil +5 vs 60...ish: The War Saga
Episode 1: A Fresh Start
Episode 2: Wings of Conflict: Coming WHEN IT'S DONE!!
Last edited by Admiral_Stalfos19; Oct 8th, 2012 at 5:40:32 AM. Reason: Finished justifications. Calcs to come soon
|Oct 7th, 2012, 8:47:55 PM||#21|
Join Date: Dec 2011
In depth stuff later
Look left ---------------------------------------> You failed
Life's too short for ramen.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 8:48:19 PM||#22|
take into the air...
Join Date: May 2009
Hey, it's time for stats again!
95 HP / 117 Atk / 115 Def / 115 SpA / 60 SpD / 83 Spe
PT: 194.74 [Excellent]
ST: 105.30 [Above Average]
PS: 168.67 [Very Good]
SS: 169.87 [Very Good]
ODB: -4.52 [Slightly Defensive]
PSB: 12.93 [Biased towards Physical]
BSR: 356.24 [Excellent]
There are a few limitations I set on myself for the Speed stat. A Speed stat too high renders Weak Armor useless, and given that it's the first of the three competitive abilities chosen making it useless would probably not be a good thing. On the other hand, there exist a plethora of Pokemon that lurk around the 80 Spe range that could pose a large threat to CAP4, so I strove to keep the Speed stat above 80 for the purposes of keeping Illusion and No Guard as viable choices.
83 Speed is a pretty special Speed tier, and having it on CAP4 ensures a few things. Without Weak Armor, it allows CAP4 to outspeed a multitude of Base 80s that pose a threat to it in addition to Gyarados (81) and Heatran (77), all of which could deal hefty hits to CAP4. Pokemon that it underspeeds are Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Deoxys-D. This allows CAP4 be usable with Illusion or No Guard, but is not super fast.
With Weak Armor, it is guaranteed to outspeed all Base 130 Spe Pokemon, however uncommon, by investing 252 EVs into Speed when at +1 (most likely a Weak Armor boost); a +Spe nature, however, is not necessary. With no investment in Speed whatsoever, it hits 303 Speed at +1, which is enough to outspeed max Speed Rotom-A (86) and below.
ATTACK / SPECIAL ATTACK
My goal was to make CAP4's offenses as even as possible, for the purposes of a mixed set. You'll note that these specific offensive stats fall roughly into the middle of the BSR range for PS and SS; I didn't feel like having one be much higher than another would be beneficial. Moving it to the high end could involve stats as high as 137 which I felt was just too much, while the low end is only around 105, which is simply underwhelming.
117 and 115 are actually surprisingly good offenses; they range around #15 in comparison to all the other Pokemon in OU. The Attack is sufficient enough to OHKO 0/0 Latios with Megahorn at 252 Atk or X-Scissor with a +Atk nature, as well as 252/0 Latias with Megahorn at 252 Atk or Physically Defensive Latias with max Atk Megahorn roughly 90% of the time after Stealth Rock. In terms of the other STAB, 4/0 Infernape is almost guaranteed to be OHKOed at 252 Attack by Psycho Cut, and it is to be noted that CAP4 is overkilled by any of Infernape's special Fire moves and is also OHKOed around 97% of the time by Life Orb Iron Fist Fire Punch at 4/0, let alone Flare Blitz. What 117 Attack can't do is to get past Jirachi (not a 2HKO), let alone standard Ferrothorn.
On the special side, some things a 252 SpA Bug Buzz can OHKO Abomasnow, Hydreigon (with SR), and Starmie. It also 2HKOes 248/0 Deoxys-D after Stealth Rock and Reuniclus in addition to Jellicent 98% of the time without Stealth Rock and factoring in Leftovers. Despite being horrible in terms of coverage, Psychic can manage an OHKO on 252/0 Tentacruel with maximum SpA and a Life Orb, destroying most other Poison- and Fighting-type Pokemon as well. On the other hand, Specially Defensive Forretress is never 2HKOed by Psychic, while Genesect and Scizor are never OHKOed; in addition, Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T are almost never OHKOed nor 2HKOed by LO Psychic and LO Bug Buzz, respectively.
These calculations show that CAP4 is well equipped in terms of offenses to handle most of the Pokemon it should be able handle, yet fails against most of the Pokemon it should not. The Infernape example exemplifies risk as well; you can OHKO it, but it can OHKO you as well - catching it on the switch, having it use an ineffective move due to Illusion, or getting a Weak Armor boost all allow you to get it before it gets you, but it'll take some gambling to get that to happen.
HP / DEFENSE / SPECIAL DEFENSE
95 HP is a decent number that just seems really nice and is suitably high, so I chose it and tailored my defenses accordingly.
My goal in defenses were to create an imbalance of sorts, so I decided to raise PT near the upper bound and lower ST to the lower bound. High Defense is important to ensure that Weak Armor remains a viable choice when compared to Illusion and No Guard, while the lower Special Defense makes for a dynamic contrast and creates a bit more risk in that you can't just switch CAP4 in randomly and have two high defensive stats buffer the hit.
Most any STAB super effective or pseudo-STAB (rain) special hit will take out CAP4 - Heatran / Infernape and Politoed / Rotom-W come to mind, respectively - although its physical defense is a lot sturdier. Looking at Scizor, which takes CAP4 two turns to kill, CAP4 survives three Bullet Punches or two Pursuits without Stealth Rock (subtract one from each if there is Stealth Rock) which makes entry hazards that much more significant in terms of playing with this CAP. Like Volcarona, there's some risk involved with this; Stealth Rock will drastically hamper your ability to play well with CAP4, but it definitely could pay off.
In terms of abilities, however, there are some important things to note. If running Weak Armor, then CAP4 will definitely be more susceptible to priority attacks from Pokemon such as Scizor; for example, it would be 2HKOed by Scizor even without Stealth Rock, which makes gameplay risky for both sides. If running Illusion, CAP4 might actually have more bulk than it seems to have on paper, as opponents may choose the wrong attack sometimes or simply go for a less risky hit that can do decent damage to both CAP4 and the Pokemon it's disguised as.
As an aside, these are pretty nice numbers right :DD
Last edited by Engineer Pikachu; Oct 9th, 2012 at 10:45:15 PM.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 9:29:55 PM||#23|
This was never a story that would have a happy ending.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Somewhere on the edge of the bell curve
I hope there are people as into even stats as I am!
125 HP / 105 Atk / 95 Def / 95 SpA / 50 SpD / 110 Spe
Will edit in explanations over the course of a little while. The general idea is that if we want this Pokemon to be a credible threat, it needs enough speed to outpace a decent amount of the OU metagame. I was especially concerned with guaranteeing that we outrun Terrakion and neutral-speed Tornadus-T. The attack and special attack get (or don't get) specific kills.
Everything was beautiful. Nothing hurt.
I'm back, baby. Look for me in 5th gen UU!
|Oct 7th, 2012, 9:37:09 PM||#24|
Join Date: Feb 2011
somewhere could be anywhere
huh I would have never thought that i'd support an EV spread like it but korski's spread seems just about right. the speed reasoning is solid and i like the choice, also it outspeeds venusaur in sun at +1, all around just awesome. however, i suggest you bump the offenses up a little bit to more acceptable levels, maybe around 105 but your offenses are too low for riskmon.
erisia is the other spread i support. there is sound reasoning for it, i like the hp number, the speed is stellar, the offenses are high, defense is great, i mean there isn't anything else you could ask for.
|Oct 7th, 2012, 10:51:34 PM||#25|
Join Date: May 2012
Right on. I've always wanted to get into the stat making process since I started lurking around here. That's why I joined Smogon-just to make stats for CAP.
Ok...no one liked by low physical tankiness idea...I guess I could've defended that better, but no big deal. I just so happened to make spreads with high PT to, and...surprise, surprise, most hit 600 BST. How did that happen?
Alright...my first idea is this:
PT:178.2490 - Excellent
ST: 113.2706 - Above Average
PS: 166.2158 - Very Good
SS: 183.1197 - Excellent
BSR: 357.7248 - Excellent
I'd like to remind everyone that I'm not a competitive expert...not a noob, but not an expert. I am, however, a thinker, so here's what I think.
95/105/65 defenses fit nicely into the limits established by BMB, and address the notion of having enough PT to handle some physical abuse and let it get it's Weak Armor boost. With max DEF EVs, this spread lets it survive:
Haxorus (OU Double Dance) Outrage 49.84 - 58.91% Earthquake 13.89 - 16.31%
Dragonite (OU Choice Band) Outrage 69.18 - 81.87%
Etc. Basically, not only can it take resisted moves, but if you can keep entry hazards out of the way, it can actually take some decent hits from some of OU heavy hiters, and a lot of them do pittance damage with coverage moves like Earthquake.
On the other hand, 125/135/75 offenses let it beat the crap out of things on either side of the spectrum. It's speed is low enough to make Weak Armor appealing, but high enough that, with a boost, it can outspeed quite a few interesting things, and smack them around a bit. Here are some offensive calculations with max Special Attack, Modest and Life Orb, using attacks I think are likely choices for our Riskymon:
Jellicent (OU Choice Specs) Psyshock 66.66 - 78.9%
Ferrothorn (OU Choice Band) HP Fire 112.82 - 133.33%
Forretress (OU Specially Defensive) HP Fire 125.42 - 148.02%
Wobbuffet (OU Bulky) Bug Buzz 92.42 - 109.09% ...Yeah
And Max Attack Evs, Adamant Nature, Life Orb, And again, likely moves:
Ferrothorn (OU Standard) Megahorn 51.98 - 61.36%
Metagross (OU Mixed) Megahorn 71.76 - 85.04%
Tyranitar (OU Dragon Dance) Megahorn 146.19 - 172.51%
I've got to go, be back later. Hope that all makes since.
Huh...? A funny line? Nah...I'd rather not...
|bugmaniacbob, cap 4, need for speed, slow and steady|