The Best Pokemon in UU

[Pokemazter]

I feel Cofagrigus should be on that list for the same reasons that Snorlax is on it, as it walls the other half of the attacking spectrum with ease. It's arguably the best switch-in to any physical attacker, minus CB or LO Darmanitan, and can pack an offensive punch through Trick Room and Nastly Plot, similar to how Snorlax can use CB or Curse (even though nobody uses that anymore). Cofagrigus is also another one of those solid answers to the plethora of Rain Teams that have been popping up like mad thanks to the new additions.

[MysticNova]

Maybe we should allow more time for all the new additions to get settled in? With Tornadus being the source of all these rain teams and Meloetta/Virizion relatively unexplored (seeing as how I haven't seen them very much) I think we should wait a bit before going ahead with the poll.

Personally I think Meloetta or Tornadus could be very strong competitors for the title, especially Meloetta. I've worked with Relic Song mixed, Specially Defensive, and even Choice Specs and I've been really impressed so far.

[/B/utterfree]

You better put Roserade on that poll. I will be suitably outraged if those free KOs on the switch and free Sleep Powders don't make Roserade a pain to counter in UU. She also partners extremely well with nearly every other UU Poke in the tier, and requires more than one check in order to be dealt with because of her raw power and Sleep Powder. Running HP Fire or HP Ground to deal with whatever Steel thinks it can wall Roserade is all too amusing, too.

I can't wait for Technician Roserade to be released so I can try it out to see if it expands her versatility, as if being a hazards setter, offensive pivot, and Special Sweeper weren't enough. She also monopolizes the "Grass-type" role often found in most FWG Cores, only really having Shaymin as the other option unless you're digging into RU/NU territory else.

[Cesterp]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

You better put Roserade on that poll. I will be suitably outraged if those free KOs on the switch and free Sleep Powders don't make Roserade a pain to counter in UU. She also partners extremely well with nearly every other UU Poke in the tier, and requires more than one check in order to be dealt with because of her raw power and Sleep Powder. Running HP Fire or HP Ground to deal with whatever Steel thinks it can wall Roserade is all too amusing, too.

I can't wait for Technician Roserade to be released so I can try it out to see if it expands her versatility, as if being a hazards setter, offensive pivot, and Special Sweeper weren't enough. She also monopolizes the "Grass-type" role often found in most FWG Cores, only really having Shaymin as the other option unless you're digging into RU/NU territory else.

Roserade isn't the best simply because there isn't anything that Roserade does the best. Shaymin is far better as an offensive poke because you don't have to use Leaf Storm/Giga Drain as primary STAB (one being powerful but generating free turns for the opponent, one being weak), has better Natural Bulk, has a better movepool (Seed Flare, Air Slash, and Earth Power hitting everything but Bronzong, replace Air Slash with HP Fire and you're good), and Seed Flare is just an awesome move with a lot of wallbreaking potential. Frosslass is better as a hazards setter, as Frosslass guarantees at least one (a lot of times two, and against other hazard setting leads, three) layer of spikes, and it also has the blistering speed combined with Destiny Bond to really get a niche as far as that goes. And while Sleep Powder is nice, it's not really worth the time of day to waste a team slot that could be something better simply because the movepool of Roserade has a shaky accuracy sleep-inducing move.

If you've read the thread, the best is either Kingdra, Raikou, or (most likely) Heracross. Roserade is really good, but it's not the best. It requires support, free opportunities, and can be ruined pretty easily if the opponent brought a competently built team.

[Bent1ey]

I don't really buy into the non-being-the-best-at-something argument to be honest, Roserade has too many great features combined into the same pokemon to be brought down by such an argument. Versatility can go a long way.

But I don't really think it's competing for the top dog position anyways, at this point it doesn't seem as metagame defining as some of the other pokes in the list.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Bent1ey

I don't really buy into the non-being-the-best-at-something argument to be honest, Roserade has too many great features combined into the same pokemon to be brought down by such an argument. Versatility can go a long way.

But I don't really think it's competing for the top dog position anyways, at this point it doesn't seem as metagame defining as some of the other pokes in the list.

Roserade does not have versatility, and its issue is that it's a two-trick pony. It's either laying hazards, which is arguably done better by Frosslass, even Qwilfish, as they both have a much wider amount of Pokemon that they can lay Spikes up against, or playing the offensive role, which Virizion and Shaymin do better due to their movepools. Now, Kingdra or Mew, are Pokemon with versatility, as figuring out switch set they're running usually comes at a hefty cost, and can ultimately lead to a blown match.

I'll agree with the last point however, as Roserade no longer defines UU, unlike back before June, when hazards were the norm. The tier is simply too offensive for Roserade to maintain its peak.

[Bent1ey]

Roserade can double as an status absorber, a cleric, carry double powder and mix all that with the afore mentioned hazard/offensive sets. You can argue that it leads to odd combinations that are somewhat uneffective together, but there is also the fact it has all those abilities and a very different bulk that Froslass (no bulk at all) and Qwilfish (better physical bulk).

The top contenders carry versatility as well (Heracross is also an status absorber, can revenge kill, sweep etc.), but as you mentioned, it is very critical to find out their different movesets in order to counter them properly. For me this is not exclusively a question of how versatile they are, but also of having movesets that counteract other popular strategies. With their kind of versatility it is your opponent who must be guessing how to counter it, not you who has to find the right movement to use, because they are offensive threats. Their brand of versatility cannot be compared with a much less "threatening" pokemon such as Bronzong or Roserade imo.

[NATdude]

Originally Posted by Fat JacobNinja

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Naive Nature
- Transform
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-
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Ditto is, to put it simply, the best revenge killer in any tier of all time ever. It can come in on any pokemon that doesn't resist itself (flygon, heracross, kingdra, ghosts, etc.) Unless it is facing a scarfer it will always outspeed, and even if it does have to take out a scarf there is a 50% chance of an outspeed, due to the speed tie. Since it does not rely on its on stats it can customize its IV's to get the right hidden power, such as ice for lilligant or ground for raiku.


In response to the above posters, Ditto beats any raiku not running hpground, and if that raiku had already calm minded, can use the boosts to tear apart the opposing team. Ditto can also easily beat any standard scarfed heracross that isn't locked into stone edge, and even if it is, there is still the 50% chance due to speed tie.

Ditto is very easy to play around. If he switchs into heracross, just which to your Hera counter (because every team carries one now). Trying to take out your darmanitan, switch in your check. Ditto is effective against certain teams, but can be dead weight against stall teams. Even HO teams can play around ditto. While he looks good on paper, ditto just can't hold it's own on a team to be considered the best. He needs a lot of support to work well and some very good prediction.

[Doron]

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

Roserade does not have versatility, and its issue is that it's a two-trick pony. It's either laying hazards, which is arguably done better by Frosslass, even Qwilfish, as they both have a much wider amount of Pokemon that they can lay Spikes up against, or playing the offensive role, which Virizion and Shaymin do better due to their movepools. Now, Kingdra or Mew, are Pokemon with versatility, as figuring out switch set they're running usually comes at a hefty cost, and can ultimately lead to a blown match.

I'll agree with the last point however, as Roserade no longer defines UU, unlike back before June, when hazards were the norm. The tier is simply too offensive for Roserade to maintain its peak.

Roserade has versatility coming out the whazoo. Also, I think that you may be underestimating Roserade's base 125 sp. atk, base 90 speed (outruns Nidoking and Heracross) and access to a 140 BP STAB move in addition to its killer support movepool.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Doron

Missing the point

No, I'm not underestimating it. It runs 2 sets. The sheer definition of versatility doesn't apply when you only run 2 sets. If Roserade isn't laying hazards, it's gunning that STAB Leaf Storm.

And base 90 Speed isn't really that good, considering most of the tier, factoring the common Choice Scarf users, outspeeds Roserade.

[Bent1ey]

Even if we give some credit to your "two sets" argument, Roserade absorbs Toxic Spikes, status and can use powders with both of those sets. And how many sets can Raikou and Heracross use anyways? Three?

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Bent1ey

Even if we give some credit to your "two sets" argument, Roserade absorbs Toxic Spikes, status and can use powders with both of those sets. And how many sets can Raikou and Heracross use anyways? Three?

Four actually, and both Raikou and Heracross have much more potent move pools that support the role of a sweeper. Their abilities and or stats also add to this - which is why those two are contending for the best Pokemon in this tier. Roserade simply doesn't have what it takes to be the best Pokemon in UU. It's move pool isn't effective enough for its sweeper set, and it only runs two sets. It can fill niches, but it's not the only one that can do it. Shaymin can also absorb status, Qwilfish and Scolipede - two alternate spikers - can absorb Toxic Spikes, which is rare outside of stall and semi-stall.

Do remember that Sleep Powder is illegal on Spikes Roserade, and isn't an end-all-be-all move on the offensive set. I've got nothing against Roserade, I'm even doing the analysis, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be to be the "top Pokemon in UU". Had it a more effective move pool, then I could see myself agreeing to the claim that puts Roserade on top. Hell, 6 months ago, it was on top, and was the epitome of UU. However, the metagame has evolved, leaving more effective offensive threats, such as Heracross or Raikou, free to reign supreme.

[Bent1ey]

I already stated that Roserade is not a competitor for the top spot, the meta is simply not geared towards Roserade's strengths.

Raikou's movepool isn't exactly that deep to be honest, he just carries it in a very effective way and has amazing stats, his ability is lacking also. Heracross in the other hand, has everything going on for it, great typing, nice abilities and a downright powerful movepool. Raikou seems harder to counter.

[Awmgnoob]

Heracross is really failing to impress me, weird, all I hear are good things about him.

[Silvershadow234]

It's probably because everyone is really over-prepared for Scarf Heracross now. I personally feel as though SD Heracross is one of the best sets in the metagame right now, as proved by kokoloko's RMT. It quite literally has no counters, and it can set-up all over the physical walls, and just blasts straight past OTR Cofag and defensive cofag, as well as Zapdos, Arcanine and many, many others. Pair him with something that really appreciates having physical walls weakened or outright dead, like Sharpedo, and you can win games very easily. The fact is that SD Heracross actually has zero counters, as it actually sets up on the common physical walls of the tier. The only real way to beat SD Heracross without losing one or more pokes is with very careful prediction.

[kokoloko*]

Well 0 counters isn't exactly true. Gligar with Aerial Ace counters it... and I'm sure there's other things too. The real +++ about SDcross is that it sets up all over its usual switchins (save for Crobat :) ) so it usually gets off a few free hits because of it.

Anyway, I'm canceling this project for a few reasons.

1. People aren't being objective or following instructions. Instead of saying "yeah I think these Pokemon are the best in the tier, they're saying "I think this Pokemon is really good even though I don't think it's the best but I really really like it!!!" We're never going to get a poll together this way.

2. More importantly, this thread clashes a bit with PK Gaming's UU Viability Rankings project, which is honestly a lot more interesting. We can revisit the whole "best Pokemon in UU" thing in the later stages of that project too, so cancelling this is no biggie.

3. There's also the fact that we just got a few important drops from OU, so the tier is still shifting...

Anyway, I'm closing this now. Thanks to those if you who actually debated like you were supposed to.